Lemmings Forums

It's time to finally get this started. After consulting with WillLem, kaywhyn and mobius about our plans for the new version of Revenge of the Lemmings (and a possible sequel pack), I've been put in charge of level selection and ordering. However, I don't want to do this entirely on my own; I want this version to be, as far as possible, something that everyone's happy with, so that it can be the final version and we won't feel the need for another re-selection ten years down the line.

Firstly, I'll start with an outline of the current situation.

* There are two versions of RotL I'm working from: version 2 and version 4 (as well as the RetroLemmini version, which is based on v4).
* v2 has 210 (7 x 30) levels; v4 has 240 (6 x 40). There are 113 levels in common to the two versions, thus a total of 337 levels between them (plus four that are only in RL).
* There is also a compilation of "RotL Outtakes", 232 levels that were considered for v4 but didn't make it in. Because these levels were already examined and rejected, there's less reason to consider them, but they are available if we need to make up the numbers, or if any of them are especially good.
* My goal is to split the pack into two packs of 4 x 30 = 120 levels each. Since we have more then 240 levels to choose from, not all will be selected. (The rest can be released as a new "Outtakes" pack so they don't just disappear.)
* The main reason why the level selection changed so much from v2 to v4 is that mobius wanted to remove all levels that are also found in MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World.

We will need to make a decision on this last point, so I've opened a poll. Should we go along with the removal of these duplicated levels, or restore them to the level pool? I'll do my best to sum up the pros and cons of each choice:

* In favour of keeping them: RotL is meant to be a snapshot of the best of the levels produced by the community in the pre-NeoLemmix era. Removing levels by three specific authors (many of which are excellent levels) goes against that goal.
* Other authors may have similar compilation packs made for them in the future, which would make it even more arbitrary that just these three get excluded from RotL. (weirdybeardy already has such a pack; one for Ben Bryant is in development.)
* The v4 levels that replace these may include levels that are not as good, and bring the overall quality of the pack down. (I am in the middle of playing through v4 so that I'll be better able to judge on this question.)
* The duplication argument doesn't entirely apply to RetroLemmini, since Clammings and Insane Steve's World are not available for RL (though MazuLems is).

* In favour of removing them: MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World are all available as separate packs for NeoLemmix, so NL players would have to play the same levels twice to get full completion.
* Removing them has allowed v4 to introduce a bunch of new levels, some of which are very high quality.
* Keeping them removed would make my task as pack compiler shorter and easier  :P

Oh, and just to make things clear, while I will take the outcome of the poll into account, it is not binding.

As I mentioned, I am playing through RotL v4 so as to form my own opinions on which levels are worth keeping and which not. At this stage, I would rather not write comments on every single level, so for this post, I will just keep a list of levels that I feel should be removed. And again, while I am taking a leadership role on level selection, everyone is welcome to contribute, so please feel free to speak up if you want to advocate for keeping any levels I've listed, or removing any I haven't!

1-10 Surrealism (Pieuw). 10-of-all repeat of "Utopia". We are leaning towards removing 10-of-all repeat levels, since we have enough 10-of-all levels even without repeats; and this is one of the weaker ones, as the solution is a very obvious bash then build to the exit.

1-20 Minesweeper Lemmings (Proxima). Another 20-of-all repeat of a later level, but also problematic because it uses the Minesweeper graphics set and is taller than default. We might end up dropping the later repeat as well for those reasons.

(1-23 Canopy Lemmings is a 10-of-all repeat that I am considering keeping, because the 99 release rate and getting down from the high branches make this an interesting challenge.)

1-36 Through the Liquidizer (Conway). I hate this level. You have to spam bashers to clump lemmings to get through some traps; there's nothing interesting about the solution and it's really tedious. I can't see that this belongs in any kind of "best of" compilation.

2-5 Clever mining (Hubert & Bart). Really easy and uninteresting solution, probably unintended since it doesn't use all the skills, but I don't know what the intended solution is or how it could be fixed.

2-20 Blood Furnace (timfoxxy). Uninteresting solution that leaves a lot of skills over. The level could perhaps be retooled as a 10-of-all filler level, but even for that, it's very plain-looking and I'm sure there are better picks.

2-25 Theory of a Dead Lem (t3tesla). Banal solution where you just do the most obvious thing.

2-28 Martyrdom (TOG). Another uninteresting solution and very plain-looking level.

2-32 Where do I dig next? (Minim). This is just a remake of "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (which wasn't available in NL at the time, but is now in Lemmings Redux).

2-39 Everyone but the bomber (tumbleweed). Very bland-looking level, and it's another "split 1 of each skill between several trapdoors", like 2-14 "Eight Little Problems" earlier; we don't need both.

my thoughts on levels to keep/remove:
(I initially thought this would be difficult but I just went through the entire pack very quickly and here's a list, without a ton of explination, I can give more if needed)

The first two ranks: There's a big question as to how should the pack begin and how easy should it be at first? That discussion will factor largely into how many/which easy level to keep or not.
When putting this together at every stage; the easy ranks were the hardest to compile because finding a diverse and good set of levels that 'eased' a new player into the game was not easy.


REMOVAL:
Please note: These are not levels I *want to get rid of* more so; levels I wouldn't mind seeing go if they were chosen.

-the level design game levels-
I included these because 1) We needed some easier levels to fill in the early ranks and 2) I wanted to include this interesting piece of forum history.

-the repeats-

-the "ghost" repeats-
these were levels (example: The Hedonist) which are easy repeats of the harder version which actually never made it into the pack and another decision which seems out of place in hindsight. They might make interesting levels in themselves but it probably adds confusion to anyone that sees the original elsewhere.

-Mikau Schekzen's levels
-Mind the gap
-10 is a magic number
-except for stand outs I may mention below; levels by Isu and Conway
-Everyone but the bomber
-you have been fooled
-The Aperture Science (this one was never backroute fixed I think)
-The Big Drop
-Dilemma
-Lemming Cliche
-discipline is essential
-except for standouts I may mention; levels by -H0ru5-
-levels by Hubbart (Hubert and Bart)
-Wish you had them?
-The Necromancer
-The Great Divide
-Herculems
-Small Ham Cubes
-Twice The same
-Feel the Pressure
-Food for the Gods
-Locked and Loaded (regardless of Ben Bryant's pack(this level suffers from backroutes and is totally out of place as the only level in the pack with a pick up skill, which doesn't fit the theme of being old mechanics only)).
-Increasing Step Heights
-Magic the Bombering
-Tilt



KEEP:
These are stand out levels (imo) I'd be sad to see go:

-Eeny Meeny Miny OH!
-Little Miner Puzzle (at least the most difficult version, if not all of them)
-Unidentified Lemming Object
-Use the grey matter
-Eight little problems
-Messy Routes
-sculpture maze
-Petit Fours
-someone must help us!
-its a long way up (part 2) (by finlay)
-Snowhere
-Niche
-Land of Linebreaks
-Please Save Us
-Clockwork Pink
-Behind Bars
-Changing of the Guards
-Try Climbing That
-Waltz in C Sharp
-Mass Lemmicide
-Rhapsofy in Blue
-Hotel in Hell (I recommend adding a little decoration if possible? It looks sparse compared to the original, from what I remember)
-One Step Off
-Use Your Tools Wisely
-Stuff in the Way
-Out of the Frying Pan
-Fall Guy

Quote from: mobius on Today at 04:19:20 PM-Hotel in Hell (I recommend adding a little decoration if possible? It looks sparse compared to the original, from what I remember)

The version of "The Hotel in Hell" in RotL v4 is a very old one with no backroute fixes, since the fixing work was done almost entirely in the Lix version.

I'm wrong; I was misled by kaywhyn's recent video of the SuperLemmini version, which has the old level for some reason. NL v4 does have the updated version, which is the same as the one I've attached here.

In any case, for this level to be included, we will have to decide what to do about the trap (the level contains a triggered trap I added to the Fire style, which doesn't exist in the original style; that will be a problem when porting it to RetroLemmini).

Quote from: Proxima on Today at 04:32:30 PMThe version of "The Hotel in Hell" in RotL v4 is a very old one with no backroute fixes, since the fixing work was done almost entirely in the Lix version.

I'm wrong; I was misled by kaywhyn's recent video of the SuperLemmini version, which has the old level for some reason. NL v4 does have the updated version, which is the same as the one I've attached here.

The version you see in the video is based on the level in RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL. Hence the 2.0 in the video title :P Currently, there's no easy and fast way to convert from New Formats NL to SuperLemmini, with the only way presently is to manually recreate the level in the editor, which of course we want to avoid doing! Not to mention that isn't my current focus, especially as that was working off of someone else's SuperLemmini conversion of a pack. However, it's apparently possible to backport from New Formats to RetroLemmini, but I haven't tried that yet, so I don't know if it works.

Anyway, I'll likely post my level list of which ones should and shouldn't make the cut for v5 of RotL, as well as my thoughts on yours and mobius' level lists, later on when I'm able to ;)