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I had an idea today whilst playing through Revenge of the Lemmings and just wanted to make a note of it here.

A new community collaboration pack called Lemmings Assemble. That's as far as I've got with it. I'll add more later pending discusson with Eric on Discord.

I'd love to get involved:)

I would like to make some levels for this, too! :thumbsup: Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in! 8-)

Interesting idea. I'll consider contributing some levels, though I likely won't contribute much, especially as have my Lemmings Memories pack currently in-development :P

Quote from: WillLem on March 25, 2026, 02:07:34 PMI had an idea today whilst playing through Revenge of the Lemmings and just wanted to make a note of it here.

Speaking of RotL, I'm currently sorting out and tidying up eric's SuperLemmini conversion of the pack. In particular, there were a lot of duplicate music tracks and hence were removed in order to reduce the file size of the music pack. Also, as I was going through the levels to make sure I had the correct music playing on them to match with RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL, I found some incorrect level stats. Will probably post an updated version soon in the Lemmini Level Packs Archive topic ;)

Quote from: Mobiethian on March 26, 2026, 03:07:55 PMI would like to make some levels for this, too! :thumbsup: Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in! 8-)

For RetroLemmini, not NL :P

Quote from: kaywhyn on March 26, 2026, 08:11:09 PMSpeaking of RotL, I'm currently sorting out and tidying up eric's SuperLemmini conversion of the pack.

Ah OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then ave a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

If your intention is to maintain the SuperLemmini version only, then of course you don't need to do anything regarding the proposed RetroLemmini version. But, it might be good to have your involvement with this as well.

Quote from: hrb264 on March 25, 2026, 07:13:02 PMI'd love to get involved:)

Awesome! Well, feel free to keep creating levels and we'll definitely include some for sure.

Quote from: Mobiethian on March 26, 2026, 03:07:55 PMI would like to make some levels for this, too! :thumbsup: Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in! 8-)

Quote from: kaywhyn on March 26, 2026, 08:11:09 PMFor RetroLemmini, not NL :P

The more the merrier!

This goes for everyone: if you mainly create for NL but want to get involved with this project, that's fine. The SLX Editor can easily convert your levels to .rlv format for use in RetroLemmini, so you don't have to do anything differently than normal. Just create some levels in whatever Editor is best for you and we'll take it from there.

Quote from: kaywhyn on March 26, 2026, 08:11:09 PMFor RetroLemmini, not NL :P

I want to learn it is what I had in mind.

Quote from: WillLem on March 26, 2026, 09:46:18 PMAh OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then have a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm (and I'm really looking forward to making some levels for this once it gets going), but there are a few things I want to say.

RotL is a great community achievement and a fun, high-quality pack in its current state, no doubt about that. But it has remained unfinished for over 12 years because the work involved in maintaining it has been more than any one person was able and willing to take on. (I'm guilty there as well, as I offered to work on a new NL version after mobius retired from the position. I still haven't even finished solving all the levels!)

So the first question is: are you offering to take over as pack maintainer for RotL in addition to putting together and maintaining the new pack? (There is, of course, no reason why these have to be the same person.)

If so, how do you see the role? Since you talk about splitting RotL into two packs as well as creating a new collaboration, do you intend to come up with the selection and ordering yourself or through community discussion? Should new versions be made for RetroLemmini, SuperLemmini and NL so that it's playable in the new selection/ordering on all engines, or is that not important? What will you do when level solutions are impacted by game mechanics differences between the engines?

I must point out that, while RotL started on Lemmini, it's now over 10 years since it migrated to NL and has been primarily a NL pack, with other versions not so much maintained as just existing for historical reasons. It sounds like you want to move it back to (now Retro)Lemmini primarily; is that the case? If so, can you explain why you believe that should be done?

I'm really glad the pack has had a resurgence of interest, and I think this is a great time for us to put our heads together and decide on the direction it should take going forwards. I know I don't have a good track record here, but I am still happy to help with producing the next version in any way I can.

Quote from: WillLem on March 26, 2026, 09:46:18 PMAh OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then ave a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

Indeed, it really confuses me why there's an Extra rank in eric's SuperLemmini Revenge of the Lemmings. As this is simply a conversion of the Lemmini RotL pack, IMO the 6 main ranks are sufficient. I don't see the point of the Extra rank whatsoever and think that it can simply be removed. From a quick glance of the Extra rank, those seem to be levels from Revenge of the Lemmings v2.0, aka, the Very Old Formats NL version of the pack. I really don't see the point of mixing the Lemmini levels with the v1.43n-F NL RotL levels when the latter already exists as a separate RotL pack anyway :P There's about 76 levels in just that rank alone! Can definitely remove the fluff and bloat to reduce the pack file size, especially when combining it with the music pack.

Similarly, as eric's Revenge of the Lemmings Rearranged is a conversion of RotL v2.0, aka, the pack in this topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2203.0), the 19 levels that are in the first Extra rank of Revenge of the Lemmings Rearranged can simply go into the main ranks themselves. They are secret levels in the Very Old Formats NL version of the pack, but since SuperLemmini doesn't have them, I think they can just go into the main ranks. Yes, it will cause the ranks to have different amounts of levels instead of them all having 30 like it is currently, but I don't think that's a big deal, considering the v2.0 has differing amounts of levels in the ranks when including the secret levels in each of the ranks :P

The other two Extra ranks, once again, I don't see the point in them, as they're levels that are already in the Lemmini version of RotL. RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL is a completely separate level pack from the RotL Lemmini version and hence I don't see the point of mixing in the Lemmini levels that aren't found in the former with it by putting them in both the second and third Extra ranks as eric has done. Sure, this time it's only about 40 or so extra levels, but if there's an opportunity to remove unnecessary files in them, that should be done.
 

QuoteIf your intention is to maintain the SuperLemmini version only, then of course you don't need to do anything regarding the proposed RetroLemmini version. But, it might be good to have your involvement with this as well.

Yea, I'll certainly be more than happy to help you and eric out with anything that needs doing for the RetroLemmini version of RotL. I'm generally called for for my level solving skills, so I can certainly help out on that front to ensure all levels can be solved, especially the higher ranked ones, but anything else I'll try and assist in any way possible, if and whenever I'm able to.

I'm going to make it clear that I'm not and won't be maintaining eric's SuperLemmini conversions of RotL. I'll leave that up to him if he wants to do so. I'm simply assisting by tidying up and removing all the excess fluff and bloat files that don't need to be there in the pack download in order to reduce the pack size. As previously mentioned, a lot of the music tracks are duplicates. After removing the duplicates, the number of .ogg tracks has been reduced from 48 to just 12! The rest are .mod files which don't contribute as much to the file size as the .ogg music tracks. Not only that, the number of music tracks has been greatly reduced from well over 100 to just about 66 or so! ;)

In any case, I think once I post an update for the SuperLemmini RotL packs, they can pretty much be considered done. Unless there are problems that are spotted and in need of fixing, of course.

Quote from: Mobiethian on March 26, 2026, 09:50:15 PMI want to learn it is what I had in mind.

Keep in mind the pack is just an idea floating around for now and that it may or may not happen :P

Quote from: Mobiethian on March 26, 2026, 09:50:15 PMI want to learn it is what I had in mind.

Please do go ahead, it'll be great to have your involvement! :thumbsup:

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMSo the first question is: are you offering to take over as pack maintainer for RotL in addition to putting together and maintaining the new pack? (There is, of course, no reason why these have to be the same person.)

I suppose so, but if others want to get involved and help out that would be much appreciated. I already have more than enough going on lemmings-wise as it is. I'm very happy for someone else to take on the role of maintainer, and will likely ask for someone to volunteer if nobody does; my assumption of that role for now is just to get the project up and moving.

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMdo you intend to come up with the selection and ordering yourself or through community discussion?

Community discussion probably, with time limits so that the initial sorting part of the project doesn't go on forever and cause people to lose interest. So, if a decision hasn't been made by an agreed date or if consensus can't be reached, it's pack maintainer's call.

I'd probably want to do it as quickly and simply as possible, and make the first two instalments (ROTL I and ROTL II) essentially set-and-forget packs that we agree are complete and don't mess with further. I'd be relying on others' input with this for sure!

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMShould new versions be made for RetroLemmini, SuperLemmini and NL so that it's playable in the new selection/ordering on all engines, or is that not important?

No, I don't think that's necessary; this can be seen as more or less its own project. It certainly won't be back-ported to SuperLemmini (not by me, anyway). Meanwhile, if NL users want the pack to be ported to NL, I personally see no reason not to, but it's not part of the initial plan and is a bridge to be crossed later (if at all).

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMWhat will you do when level solutions are impacted by game mechanics differences between the engines?

Either fix or replace the level, I imagine. As yet, I don't think there have been any level-breaking changes between original Lemmini and RetroLemmini. Replay-breaking changes, sure, but the levels themselves all hold up (AFAIK).

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMIt sounds like you want to move it back to (now Retro)Lemmini primarily; is that the case? If so, can you explain why you believe that should be done?

Mainly because RetroLemmini is an experience closer to playing the original game than any of the other engines, and it seems like a more appropriate platform for OG-style levels. But also, because it would simply be good to have more custom content for RetroLemmini. I've worked hard on updating the engine, making it more user-friendly, and adapting the NL Editor for use with it, so a collab pack with community involvement would be the icing on the cake at this point.

Quote from: Proxima on March 26, 2026, 11:10:17 PMI am still happy to help with producing the next version in any way I can.

Awesome! The more voices and involvement we have, the better :thumbsup:

As per Willem's request on discord.

Revenge of the lemmings rearranged was ordered like mobius's NL 3.0 version of the pack except for the extra2 and extra3 ranks. also I don't mind if you (Willlem) split the main ranks in half to make Revenge of the lemmings and Return of the Lemmings. the extra1 extra2 and extra3 rank levels can perhaps be put into the lemmings assemble one. also mobius had an outtakes pack with plenty of other unused levels with some good ones. Almost all of them use the OG styles. Those in the outtakes pack of course need to be converted to Retrolemmini. perthaps you (Willem) can choose the ones that are good.

 Willem can do what he wants with The Lemmings Rearranged pack to divide it into the 3 new packs: Revenge of the lemmings, Return of the lemmings and Lemmings Assemble.

Quote from: ericderkovits on March 28, 2026, 01:32:32 AMAs per Willem's request on discord.

i.e. Eric sent this message to me as a PM but I thought it made sense to make it part of the general discussion.

Quote from: ericderkovits on March 28, 2026, 01:32:32 AMRevenge of the lemmings rearranged was ordered like mobius's NL 3.0 version of the pack except for the extra2 and extra3 ranks ... the extra1 extra2 and extra3 rank levels can perhaps be put into the lemmings assemble one.

Exactly, this is the general idea. Any levels which aren't featured in the latest NL version could potentially form part of the new collab pack, particularly if they're levels by currently-active members.

Quote from: ericderkovits on March 28, 2026, 01:32:32 AMalso mobius had an outtakes pack with plenty of other unused levels with some good ones. Almost all of them use the OG styles ... perthaps you (Willem*) can choose the ones that are good.

Again, this is exactly the kind of thing we want: additional levels by currently-active members. @mobius, do you have these levels handy to post here to this topic (don't worry about format, we can convert if necessary)?

*We can decide as a group which levels should make the final cut, I think Eric is just making it clear here that his original message was addressed to me.

Quote from: ericderkovits on March 28, 2026, 01:32:32 AMWillem can do what he wants with The Lemmings Rearranged pack to divide it into the 3 new packs: Revenge of the lemmings, Return of the lemmings and Lemmings Assemble.

Glad to have your approval with this, particularly since you have been looking after the SuperLemmini version. I should make it clear that I respect the history of ROTL as a community pack and won't do anything without approval from other Forum members who feel invested in the project's development up to this point.

If you do feel invested and (like Proxima) want to have a say in this, NOW is the time! There's no need to rush anything, of course, but there's also no need to wait months or years to make progress with it.

---

Next steps.

Perhaps the first thing to do is to draft the first two packs in the trilogy.

Pack I - Revenge of the Lemmings <--- this one
Pack II - Return of the Lemmings <--- and this one
Pack III - Lemmings Assemble

These should entirely comprise levels from the current SuperLemmini/NL versions of ROTL but split into 2 packs of 120 levels each. Others will likely have a better idea of general chronology of the levels than I do, and a better grasp of the pack's history, so input is needed here for sure. Ideally, the first pack would be the oldest levels, and the second pack the newest levels. Anything left over can be considered for inclusion in pack III.

We need an initial something to work from, so if nobody has posted anything by the end of next week (Friday 3rd April) I'll put together a frst draft (which will definitely need to be re-worked by someone with more knowledge of ROTL than me!)

In the meantime, I'll keep playing through the existing levels and try to solve as many as I possibly can!

Quick thought: I see the sense in these packs being a Forum-wide thing, and being the same in NeoLemmix.

Development for the NeoLemmix version is already very far along, would anybody want to re-arrange the NL versions of the ROTL packs as suggested in this post (i.e. packs with 120 levels across 4 groups of 30)?

Maybe it's too early to be asking this. The thought has occurred to me though, particularly following Proxima's question regarding this.

I'd be down to contribute towards this, though likely not much. I'm getting a new job in about a week and I'm going to be extremely busy from then onward (most likely). But I already have a folder of levels, some finished, some not that could possibly work here.

I do have a week off presently that I will have some time to re-familiarize myself with ROTL and maybe offer some feedback and thoughts on ROTL in general. I do have some idea of the age of most of the levels.

my #1 recommendation would be: set a goal for WAY fewer levels than ROTL had/has. Trust me that was too much work :P Like around 100 or fewer levels would probably be best. I'd also recommend starting something totally new that has little or nothing to do with ROTL [other than being like a sequel as it seems you already may have in mind].
ROTL really started to continue/finish what was started prior to 2009; and consolidate really old levels that stood by themselves when everyone like Pieuw was making big packs and that was becoming popular. My addition of newer levels seems a bad idea in hindsight.

Honestly I wasn't even aware that Eric or anyone else made these other recent conversions. I don't have any opinions on those; that's up to them.

Which brings up another point: when dealing with ROTL you're dealing with levels by people who aren't here to answer "is this a backroute or not" etc. So that just adds another layer of difficulty. I know for a fact for instance; that the celebrated Duality that's in the current states of all versions of ROTL isn't "accurate" (though its still a very good level imo) because I managed to get a replay from him from geoo. (but only for his 6th pack!) Yawg hasn't been active here in years. So again; it would be far better and easier today to make a pack based on people that are here and can address questions and issues with there levels in real time.

Also it would be nice to utilize the new skills and features of modern games [which the old levels obviously don't have].


To add to what Proxima said: part of why I got frustrated with the project was that besides the end result being too large lots of people came in saying they wanted to contribute but in the end I did most of the work; because nobody else was really willing/able to do much (except a few people, namely Akseli who brought most of the levels to my attention in the first place), and there were generally only a few people coming forward with opinions that disagreed, so they ended up at an impasse. And I was kind of just left to make the decision. ROTL has plenty of flaws, but I'm overall happy with the result. But it wouldn't bother me at all if it was greatly altered. I had plans to do what (wafflem and I) we did for ISteve's and Clam's pack with other older levels; like Yawg's and Ben Bryant's, but I never got time to do all that. If someone ever did that it would make those levels in the big pack redundant (which is why in the latest version I removed ISteve and Clam's levels). WeirdyBeardy also made his own pack consolidating all of his levels a year or so ago didn't he? But that's just one suggestion. Anyways, like I already said; since there;s a lot of new people and ROTL has old levels that are now well known, I'd recommend starting something totally new and separate from that.

edit: I forgot that actually I already started to do this with Ben Bryant's levels but its not finished.

I've made some progress with this already. We have all the music in .mod format (much smaller file size than .ogg or .mp3), and the levels are all converted to .rlv.

I'm working my way through them quickly just to check for things like screen start positions, empty space, and to make sure the standard solutions work (big thanks to ericderkovits and IchoTolot for posting solutions on YouTube for when I get stuck!)

As for ordering, level selection, backroute fixing and stuff like that, that can happen later. Once I have everything good to go I'll post a suggested "track listing" for the first 2 packs along with the pre-prepared levels and we can go from there.

I think it's really great that we're starting to move on this -- a final revamp of RotL is something that has needed to happen for a long time, and hopefully we can agree on enough to work together. That said, right now I am concerned about this project getting off on the wrong foot.

Quote from: WillLem on March 28, 2026, 12:41:48 AMMainly because RetroLemmini is an experience closer to playing the original game than any of the other engines, and it seems like a more appropriate platform for OG-style levels. But also, because it would simply be good to have more custom content for RetroLemmini. I've worked hard on updating the engine, making it more user-friendly, and adapting the NL Editor for use with it, so a collab pack with community involvement would be the icing on the cake at this point.

This is my biggest concern. Don't get me wrong, I agree with all the points you just made, but none of those are a sufficient reason for taking over the RotL project and moving it back to RL. We already have the problem of too many versions floating around, and I'm worried that this will now get even worse.

The only way that I can see this working is if those who are interested (you, me, kaywhyn, anyone else who wants to join us) work together to agree on the level selection (and then ordering, backroute fixes etc), with the aim of producing final RL and NL versions with the same levels (maybe with the odd replacement if some levels really don't work in one engine or the other, but let's hope that doesn't happen).

Just to quickly add; in case I didn't mention this before; every time I produced an update; my biggest concern was taking in everyone's feedback. "a level=incompatible with NL (or visa versa) wasn't the only reason levels got removed or altered. Obviously every single piece of feedback isn't available in the threads, but some of it should be. At one point Akseli and Pieuw made entire google docs with feedback on every single level. And there's opinions by those who LP'd the games like kaywhyn. Again, its not my call anymore, but imho these opinions should be taken into account. Atm, i don't know where to find those docs, I'll try looking if anyone wants.
I bring this up because the Lemmini version is older and therefore contains levels removed from later versions, like 'Oh no, not again', for example because only 1 person I remember liked it; everyone else that voiced an opinion pretty much hated that level.

Another important thing is backroute fixes and polishes and that sort of thing. I haven't looked at these recent updates of the Lemmini version (and frankly don't intend to) but I wonder if older problems and mistakes in those were brought back here.

Anyways; no intents to be a downer or anything; I fully support whatever you guys do with this. If we start a new pack (sequel or whatever) I'd recommend making a new topic for that, inviting people to post levels and go through a playtesting period, like we did with the lix community set. That was tons of fun honestly, I hope we can do that again, even if my involvement is minimal.

Quote from: Proxima on March 30, 2026, 05:26:24 PMtaking over the RotL project and moving it back to RL
...
The only way that I can see this working is if those who are interested ... work together to agree on the level selection (and then ordering, backroute fixes etc), with the aim of producing final RL and NL versions with the same levels

Agreed, absolutely. Both versions should be as identical as possible. We all need to co-ordinate.

If it helps, I'm actually not too fussed about level selection/ordering, or backroute fixing. I'm happy for others to take that on.

The thing I feel strongest about is the amount of levels, the pack titles, the music (there's currently way too much), and the overall presentation.

Here's what I'd suggest:

Revenge of the Lemmings (120 levels)
Picnic / Hootenanny / Carnage / Armageddon

Return of the Lemmings (120 levels)
Kind / Cunning / Devious / Menacing

Lemmings Assemble (120 levels)
Breezy / Clever / Perplexing / Ridiculous

Quote from: WillLem on March 30, 2026, 10:33:45 PMThe thing I feel strongest about is the amount of levels, the pack titles, the music (there's currently way too much), and the overall presentation.

Good to know, and fortunately I agree with the proposed pack titles, number of levels, and about the music.

As for me, the things I feel most strongly about are:
* Avoiding miles-out-of-place howlers like "Crossing Paths" being in the first rank
* Keeping the focus either on NeoLemmix, or on NL and RL equally
* Working together on level selection so we can come up with a final version we're all satisfied with, and we won't have to have the same discussion and yet another version five years down the line  :P

Quote from: Proxima on March 30, 2026, 11:04:52 PM* Avoiding miles-out-of-place howlers like "Crossing Paths" being in the first rank
* Keeping the focus either on NeoLemmix, or on NL and RL equally
* Working together on level selection so we can come up with a final version we're all satisfied with, and we won't have to have the same discussion and yet another version five years down the line  :P

Agreed on all points. I think it probably makes sense to keep the focus on NL (since that's the most popular engine), and then cross-port the resulting pack to RL.

As for porting to RL, the process will be generally this:

1) Is the level playable in RL without changing anything? If yes, add it. If no, move to (2)
2) Is the level playable in RL by making a small change to the level layout or release rate? If yes, make the change and add it. If no, move to (3)
3) Is the level playable in RL by making a small change to the skillset, lem count, or time limit? If yes, make the change and add it. If no, move to (4)
4) Is the level playable in RL by making a large change to anything? If yes, make the change and add it. If no, move to (5)
5) Find a suitable replacement level in the reserve pool and add it

It should be understood that replacement levels would be added at the same listing slot as the level being replaced, in order to preserve the ordering.

I know we haven't absolutely decided on 3 packs x 4 ranks yet, but I wanted to put down some thoughts on rank names before they leave my head. Firstly, an important resource: Akseli's list of rank names (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4045.0) in other packs. We don't absolutely have to avoid duplication, but it's one factor to consider; we should definitely avoid duplicating a name already used twice, like "Breezy" or "Perplexing".

The existing RotL ranks have some individually good names, but they don't cohere all that well as a series: there's a mixture of nouns and adjectives, and no consistent theme; "Picnic" and "Hootenanny" start a "social gatherings" theme, which is then dropped. "Pain" coming after "Frenzy" feels the wrong way round.

I guess that the intention is for pack 2 to be overall harder than pack 1 but not to the extent of pack 1 containing the easiest 120 levels and pack 2 the hardest 120; so the difficulty order of the ranks might be 1A, 2A, 1B, 2B, 1C, 2C, 1D, 2D; the rank names should at least roughly reflect this (which means 2D should be "Armageddon").

Of WillLem's suggestions (above), "Kind" and "Clever" are non-duplicates.

My suggestions:

Pack 1: Picnic, Hootenanny, Riot, Carnage
Pack 2: ?, Pain, Frenzy, Armageddon
Pack 3: Kind, Devious, Menacing, Absurd

"?" obviously isn't a suggestion, it's a blank to fill in later  :P  "Absurd" is inspired by WillLem's "Ridiculous", but changed to a synonym to avoid a duplicate.

I've attached a spreadsheet with the titles, authors and styles of all 240 levels in the latest NeoLemmix version. Next, I'm going to go through the level list (which WillLem has provided) for the RL version and compare the two, so that we know how many levels we have in total; that will help when it comes to time to start the selection process.

Since we want to keep the NL and RL versions synchronised, I've highlighted levels that use styles that don't exist (currently) in RL. Fortunately, there are only seven of these: three in L2 Circus, one in L2 Medieval, one in Persia and two (a repeat pair) in Minesweeper. (At some point there was discussion about having one "special graphics" level per rank and treating the Persia and Minesweeper levels as this, but that never got off the ground. Of course, we can still keep these levels even if we don't have others.)

Quote from: Proxima on March 31, 2026, 07:47:47 AMPack 1: Picnic, Hootenanny, Riot, Carnage

This works well to continue the "social gathering" theme, nice.

Quote from: Proxima on March 31, 2026, 07:47:47 AMPack 2: ?, Pain, Frenzy, Armageddon

This group I'm less sure about. There doesn't appear to be a common theme between them.

'Frenzy' and 'Armaggedon' could work well together I suppose, I'd suggest 'Calm' and 'Ruckus' as leading ratings for these.

So: Calm / Ruckus / Frenzy / Armaggeddon

Side note: 'Frenzy' and 'Carnage' are interchangeable here IMO. We could have:

Picnic / Hootenanny / Riot / Frenzy

and:

Calm / Ruckus / Carnage / Armaggeddon

But honestly, the other orderings work just as well.

Quote from: Proxima on March 31, 2026, 07:47:47 AMPack 3: Kind, Devious, Menacing, Absurd

'Absurd' definitely doesn't fit here. The leading theme appears to be "character traits", which is why I went with 'Cunning' between 'Kind' and 'Devious'.

Honestly, I think my original suggestion is better here:

Kind / Cunning / Devious / Menacing

If you don't like 'Menacing' as a final rating, here are some other suggestions:

Relentless
Intense
Savage
Brutal

All of these fit with the "character traits" theme.

More thoughts on rank names in a bit  :P Firstly, here's the spreadsheet updated with all levels from RotL version 2. (The current RL version is based on this, but there are slight differences; I'll check with WillLem to see whether these are actual differences in level selection, or just levels being retitled.)

I've done my best to indicate exactly which levels are common to the two versions -- this task is complicated by some levels being retitled, and sometimes being given a title that belongs to a different level in the other version!

In any case, here are the important statistics:

Version 4 has 240 levels, 127 unique and 113 in common with version 2.
Version 2 has 210 levels, 97 unique.
Therefore, in total there are 337 levels between these two versions.
(We can regard the 113 shared levels as the core of the pack; all these will be kept unless there is a really strong reason for dropping any of them.)

The levels unique to version 2 mostly fall into two categories: easy repeats of later levels; and levels by Martin Zurlinden, Clam Spammer and Insane Steve (which were removed from version 4 because these levels are available in MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World in NeoLemmix). I think WillLem is leaning towards leaving these levels out; certainly, if we want to reduce the pack to two packs of 120 each, 337 levels is a lot to work from, and cutting these out makes the task easier!

Quote from: Proxima on March 31, 2026, 07:47:47 AMOf WillLem's suggestions (above), "Kind" and "Clever" are non-duplicates.

My suggestions:

Pack 1: Picnic, Hootenanny, Riot, Carnage
Pack 2: ?, Pain, Frenzy, Armageddon
Pack 3: Kind, Devious, Menacing, Absurd

"?" obviously isn't a suggestion, it's a blank to fill in later  :P  "Absurd" is inspired by WillLem's "Ridiculous", but changed to a synonym to avoid a duplicate.

"Pleasure" feels like it would fit there and keep the "nice thing for the first rank's name" approach the other two have (although "Hootenanny" could perhaps also be considered "nice"... there again, it's the first pack, maybe the first pack should have two "nice" ranks).

It sounds like we're agreed on the rank names for pack 1 (although these are not set in stone, so anyone is welcome to speak up still!)

For pack 2, I like "Ruckus", and the sequence Ruckus - Frenzy - Armageddon does work better than Pain - Frenzy. We don't have to keep all the original seven rank names.

However, while "Calm" fits well with the others, it's already been used by three other packs. We could replace it with "Quiet"; or since pack 2 is overall harder, we could do something like Ruckus - Frenzy - Berserk - Armageddon.

For pack 3, "Cunning" has been used by four other packs. "Brutal" would be very good but it has been used twice. I need to think more about this one.

Right, a few days ago WillLem asked for my input on if things sound good on what he's proposed in regards to the general development of this pack being something that will come of it. Here's what I honestly think:

I think what's been put forth so far are excellent suggestions and valid points from which to base development decisions on for when work does get underway, especially on a long overdue update for the v4.0 of the RotL pack. Before any work goes towards Lemmings Assemble, however, I think it's best if WillLem first focuses on the two mini-packs of 120 levels each first. After those are done and maybe deciding on some more things on the third pack, then see if you still feel like it's best to collaborate our efforts on updating the V4.0 New Formats Nl version of RotL for Lemmings Assemble to closely resemble and follow. I certainly don't mind and would agree here that we should, but I believe you also mentioned that people who want to contribute to the Lemmings Assemble pack are free to create levels for it. If so, it does sound like it'll be its own project independent of the New Formats NL version of RotL. Again, see if you still feel like it's best to collaborate our efforts between v4.0 RotL and Lemmings Assemble after you do and finish the first two packs of 120 levels each first ;) Level creation for Lemmings Assemble might not even be necessary, given the amount of unique levels Proxima was able to find after comparing the levels in the v2.0 and v4.0 of the RotL packs and compiling the results in an Excel spreadsheet being way more than enough!

As has been pointed out, RotL is a very huge undertaking for anyone alone, especially given the current sizes of all of them being over 200 levels each. A lot of collaboration is needed among several people so that RotL is as good as it can be. Of course, it won't always be possible to come to a consensus on everything, but we do what we can!

Ultimately, just remember that there's no rush or even any real urgency to do this, especially as the v4.0 RotL pack is at least completely playable, though possibly way too huge on the number of levels. I agree with Proxima that doing nothing with it anymore isn't the way to go, as it's been in need of a long overdue update for a while now. Even though the level ordering is far better than in earlier versions of the pack on different formats of NL and even the Lemmini version, the very first RotL pack there is available, it's still far from perfect on that. Not only that, backroutes need to be fixed, deciding what levels to cut, if any, and what their replacement should be, etc.

To be clear, I think this project that WillLem proposed is a great idea. I just think it's best to focus on a few things at a time so as not to overwhelm oneself, though this is likely just me talking, as I personally like taking my time and baby steps with anything I do :P   

Quote from: Proxima on March 31, 2026, 03:19:21 PMThe levels unique to version 2 mostly fall into two categories: easy repeats of later levels; and levels by Martin Zurlinden, Clam Spammer and Insane Steve (which were removed from version 4 because these levels are available in MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World in NeoLemmix). I think WillLem is leaning towards leaving these levels out; certainly, if we want to reduce the pack to two packs of 120 each, 337 levels is a lot to work from, and cutting these out makes the task easier!

Thanks for investigating this, nice work! And sure, whatever we can do to get the level count down to 240 is fine by me. Obviously there's no need to remove all levels by these authors, but certainly if a large chunk of them are repeats from other packs, it seems a good way to get the numbers down initially.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 02:20:55 AMWe don't have to keep all the original seven rank names.

Strongly agreed. As far as my opinion goes, we can make up a completely new set if necessary.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 02:20:55 AMsince pack 2 is overall harder, we could do something like Ruckus - Frenzy - Berserk - Armageddon.

Frenzy and Berserk feel like they're both too similar (in terms of the difficulty level they might represent), and also too different (in terms of what the words describe). Ruckus, Frenzy and Armageddon all seem to refer to catastrophic happenings, whereas "Berserk" is more of a descriptive word. The difference is subtle and nuanced, but it is there.

If "Calm" has been used too many times, here are some possible alternatives that fit well with Ruckus - Frenzy - Armageddon:

Hubbub / Quibble / Quarrel / Scrap / Brawl (actually, this one could come after Ruckus)

or

Peace / Quiet

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 02:20:55 AMalready been used by three other packs
...
has been used by four other packs. "Brutal" would be very good but it has been used twice

Honestly, I don't think we need to worry too much about rating names having been used elsewhere if they fit well with what we have.

That said, I'm open to coming up with completely new ideas and concepts for the rating names as long as they fit well as a "1 - 10 - 100 - 1000!" series.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 01, 2026, 10:57:24 AMBefore any work goes towards Lemmings Assemble, however, I think it's best if WillLem first focuses on the two mini-packs of 120 levels each first.

Agreed. We should get the NL 4.0 version sorted first, and it should be the proposed 2 smaller packs. Assemble development can follow once we have this sorted.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 01, 2026, 10:57:24 AMAfter those are done and maybe deciding on some more things on the third pack, then see if you still feel like it's best to collaborate our efforts on updating the V4.0 New Formats Nl version of RotL for Lemmings Assemble to closely resemble and follow.

Ah, perhaps there's a misunderstanding here; the proposal is indeed that we update the V4.0 New Formats NL version of ROTL. Did you think we meant something else? We should clarify this before moving any further ahead with anything. See the this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=108424) for exactly what's being proposed.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 01, 2026, 10:57:24 AMyou also mentioned that people who want to contribute to the Lemmings Assemble pack are free to create levels for it. If so, it does sound like it'll be its own project independent of the New Formats NL version of RotL.

Again, please see this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=108424) for a response to this.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 01, 2026, 10:57:24 AMUltimately, just remember that there's no rush or even any real urgency to do this

Agreed, but things do need to move or nothing will get done. I'm happy for the general pace to be slower than it would be if I was working on it alone, but I'll also probably push for regular, tangible progress wherever possible. It's probably a good idea to set small goals that we can tick off once they're achieved, and try not to go back over stuff we've already decided on.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 01, 2026, 10:57:24 AMTo be clear, I think this project that WillLem proposed is a great idea. I just think it's best to focus on a few things at a time so as not to overwhelm oneself

Strongly agreed. Small achievable goals, little and often, is key to the success of this project for sure!

ATTENTION!

Please read the overall proposal and vote in the poll. Thank you!

We need to be very clear at this stage exactly what's being proposed, so that there is no confusion when we seem to be referring to different "versions" of the pack. The following is exactly what's being suggested, and ideally we need to all agree on this before we move forward with anything:

This project can be thought of as a 'community packs' project, consisting of level contributions from anyone who's ever made a custom lemmings level!

1) The existing pool of levels (as identified by Proxima here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=108410)) should be split into two packs: Revenge of the Lemmings and Return of the Lemmings

2) Once these are done, we can then focus on the development of the third in the series: Lemmings Assemble

3) The outcome of this project is that we have one version of each of the above packs, ported to both NeoLemmix and RetroLemmini

4) The NeoLemmix port will be the one being worked on primarily (so, v4.0 as it is currently, which will be replaced by the result of this project). The NL version will be cross-ported to RetroLemmini as we go, keeping the two versions as identical as possible

5) All previous versions should then be considered obsolete, but can of course remain available in the forum archive

Do we all more or less agree on this? Please vote in the poll either way, thanks!

Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 10:43:27 PM1) The existing pool of levels (as identified by Proxima here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=108410)) should be split into two packs: Revenge of the Lemmings and Return of the Lemmings

Yes, with some caveats  :P

The RL version of RotL contains four levels not found in either NL v2 or NL v4 (the versions on my spreadsheet), so we have a pool of 341 levels to draw from. Excluding the levels shared with MazuLems (16), Insane Steve's World (17) and Clammings (21) still leaves 287. WillLem has talked about 2 packs of 120 each, and while we don't have to aim for a round number, that feels like a reasonable target (especially considering the original Lemmings has 120 levels, so we have an idea what a pack that size feels like).

So the process of splitting the pack will also be a selection process -- some levels won't make the cut any more. It might be that this process ends up with more, or less, than 240 levels we want to include, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

Quote2) Once these are done, we can then focus on the development of the third in the series: Lemmings Assemble

I'm not entirely sold on the proposed pack titles, but they'll do for now while we talk about plans.

We should decide what restrictions we want to impose for levels in the third pack. Since we want the pack to have NL and RL versions, levels will need to work on both engines, and I'm not sure exactly what set of features are available in RL. Are we restricted to the original 8 skills, and objects that existed in L1?

I know that RL has a total of 33 graphics styles, and we might not even allow all of these, as the first two packs will use only the originals plus a handful of L2 styles, so it might be good to do the same in the third pack for consistency.

Quote4) The NeoLemmix port will be the one being worked on primarily (so, v4.0 as it is currently).

Well, we are producing a new version, so it would be silly to refer to it with the same version number -- this will be version 5.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMstill leaves 287
...
So the process of splitting the pack will also be a selection process -- some levels won't make the cut any more.

Easier repeats are another gimme. Any stats on the level count once these are removed?

Also, are any other levels featured in other packs, or is it just the ones from Mazu, Insane Steve and Clam?

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMlevels will need to work on both engines, and I'm not sure exactly what set of features are available in RL.

At a very quick glance:

NL/RL shared level properties

Max level size: 3200 x 3200
Release Rate: 1-99 (locked RR supported)
Time limits (<= 99 minutes, infinite time supported)
Max lem count: 999
Normal lems only (no zombies or neutrals)
Classic 8 skillset only (<=99 thereof, infinite skills supported)

Available objects:

Fire
Water
Continuous traps (i.e. one-shot is not supported)
One-Way-Arrows (all directions are supported)
Force field left/right (essentially the Blocker effect)

One important difference: RetroLemmini supports optional Timed Bombers. Levels which feature the Bomber skill should ideally not require the skill to be used within the first 5 seconds of the first lem spawning. Should this come up, the ported level may need a small layout tweak to ensure that the standard solution is still possible with Timed Bombers.

Other physics differences are likely to be insignificant, or easy to handle when porting.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMthe first two packs will use only the originals plus a handful of L2 styles, so it might be good to do the same in the third pack for consistency.

Strongly agreed. This project should only feature OG / L2 styles ideally. Level contributions using other sets should be remade, wherever possible.

Important note: RetroLemmini does support tileset mixing, so if a level uses mixed styles it can be ported.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMWell, we are producing a new version, so ... this will be version 5.

Sure, but we're working from version 4.0 - that's significant, and should be understood by all concerned. Also, this project is intended to replace v4.0, not follow it. I'll make that clearer in the above post.

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Please vote in the poll if you haven't already done so. Thanks!

Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 11:57:13 PMOne important difference: RetroLemmini supports optional Timed Bombers. Levels which feature the Bomber skill should ideally not require the skill to be used within the first 5 seconds of the first lem spawning. Should this come up, the ported level may need a small layout tweak to ensure that the standard solution is still possible with Timed Bombers.

A few levels come to mind off the bat: at least two levels by BulletRide (not sure if any of them actually ended up in ROTL in any version however...), also possibly a level by Fleech. And in case any levels by ISteve are being used; The Top Shelf; all these are ruined by instant bombers (if not adjusted in some way), the latter example turns out to have a rather simple fix which was applied in his big pack. If the levels are adjusted then it wouldn't matter reinstituting a timed bomber.

Quote from: mobius on April 02, 2026, 12:39:09 AMin case any levels by ISteve are being used; The Top Shelf; all these are ruined by instant bombers ... if the levels are adjusted then it wouldn't matter reinstituting a timed bomber.

Thanks for clarifying this, mobius.

I'm pretty sure we've opted not to include levels by Insane Steve that are duplicates from his main level pack (although this decision isn't by any means final yet), so this may not be an issue anyway, but good to know just in case this particular level is ROTL-exclusive.

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Please vote in the poll if you haven't already done so. Thanks!

In reply to some of Mobius' earlier comments. Given that he's been maintaining ROTL for many years, his word on the subject and experience working with this particular bunch of levels is invaluable and should be treated as such.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI already have a folder of levels, some finished, some not that could possibly work here.

Great stuff, we can certainly add these to the pool if you want to share them. We will most likely need backups and replacements, as well as contributions to Assemble.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI do have a week off presently that I will have some time to re-familiarize myself with ROTL and maybe offer some feedback and thoughts on ROTL in general. I do have some idea of the age of most of the levels.

Any wisdom you can contribute regarding the ROTL levels will be much appreciated, especially with regards to ordering and chronology. I imagine we'll aim to structure the packs at least somewhat by age, but also taking the 2022 ordering into account.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMset a goal for WAY fewer levels than ROTL had/has. Trust me that was too much work :P Like around 100 or fewer levels would probably be best.

We're thinking 120 per pack at a maximum, but I'd be open to reducing this total to 100 if it does feel like there are too many levels even with 120. Currently, given Proxima's stats and the availability of levels in general, it might be a struggle to get it down to even 120. I'm hoping you might be able to help with that if you have any ideas as to what might be able to be dropped at this stage.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI'd also recommend starting something totally new that has little or nothing to do with ROTL [other than being like a sequel as it seems you already may have in mind].

I know what you mean here. In fact, I originally did come up with the idea of Assemble as a separate pack intended to continue the general idea of ROTL as a 'community collab' only in spirit. But, there seems to be a general consensus (yourself included) that ROTL has gotten a bit out of hand and gone beyond its original scope somewhat, so I figured we could make a trilogy of it and restructure the original pack to be smaller.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMMy addition of newer levels seems a bad idea in hindsight.

I won't hear of it! It's totally natural to want to add more levels to a project like this, and you did the right thing in carrying it on. I'd say the only thing that probably should have happened sooner is a sequel pack, but I imagine that the idea simply mustn't have been suggested, or maybe there was pressure to include people's levels in the existing pack? Whatever the reason, we have an opportunity to sort that out now so let's go for it.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMwhen dealing with ROTL you're dealing with levels by people who aren't here to answer "is this a backroute or not" ... it would be far better and easier today to make a pack based on people that are here and can address questions and issues with there levels in real time.

Agreed, and we'll of course do that with the new levels. With the older levels, there comes a point where a level is what it is, and probably shouldn't be backroute fixed any further, even if the intended solution is known and the level has been previously fixed.

With that said, we have kaywhyn and Proxima on this project who are both excellent solvers and great at finding alternative solutions, backroutes, etc. We also have your specific knowledge of individual levels, which can and should be taken into account. I suggest that we fix any backroutes that we know of this time around, and then sign the pack off as final. That is, IMO we shouldn't go back and fix it later, even if something else is found. The older levels will then exist as snapshots, and we can move forward with the newer ones.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMAlso it would be nice to utilize the new skills and features of modern games [which the old levels obviously don't have].

This is a tricky one, and will likely come up more when we come to work on the new levels. My current thoughts are that the collab packs should feel like spiritual successors to Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings - OG styles, classic 8 skills, etc. We all make levels in those styles, and it's good to have a collection of the best the Forum has to offer that feels like an OG Lemmings sequel.

It's also worth noting that RetroLemmini can only support the OG objects and classic 8 skills. It feels right to have the community collab be something that is compatible with both platforms (NL and RL), but then I am biased as current RL dev! Other people's opinions on this will be needed later, no doubt.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMpart of why I got frustrated with the project was that besides the end result being too large lots of people came in saying they wanted to contribute but in the end I did most of the work

Yes, this needs to be addressed. Everyone who's contributing has taken on clear roles, these:

Proxima - Level selection and ordering, general presentation
kaywhyn - Solving and backroute-fixing, managing feedback
Me - porting to RetroLemmini, music selection and ordering, general presentation

There will be more to delegate as time goes on, and we'll all be involved in all parts of the project ultimately, but having people in charge of different things will hopefully make it so that no single person feels it's all up to them to do everything.

As far as yourself goes, you're welcome to be involved in whatever capacity you wish. We will most likely need you for a bit of everything, given your experience with the levels, but there's honestly no pressure for you to do anything in particular. You've already done enough getting us this far!

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMand there were generally only a few people coming forward with opinions that disagreed, so they ended up at an impasse.

This is also a concern, especially given how quickly Forum discussion can dry up. But, I'm confident that we should be able to tackle most decisions as long as we remain invested. A decision-making process will likely present itself as we go on, I imagine, and - if it doesn't - I have several methods and techniques to help with this that I use for my own projects, and they work to just get things done. We can use those if needed.

Quote from: mobius on March 30, 2026, 05:51:02 PMJust to quickly add; in case I didn't mention this before; every time I produced an update; my biggest concern was taking in everyone's feedback.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I'd suggest that we treat existing feedback on the original levels as final, and go with our own individual opinions when it comes to sorting these levels out. For new levels, these will likely require a fresh process of releasing levels, taking on feedback, etc. I'll try to think of the best way to go about this given the current Forum setup. We'll likely hit Discord a lot for this.

Quote from: mobius on March 30, 2026, 05:51:02 PMI fully support whatever you guys do with this. If we start a new pack (sequel or whatever) I'd recommend making a new topic for that, inviting people to post levels and go through a playtesting period, like we did with the lix community set. That was tons of fun honestly, I hope we can do that again, even if my involvement is minimal.

Glad to have your approval, that means a lot. I hope that you can be involved in the new collab pack without the pressure of having to maintain it!

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Please vote in the poll if you haven't already done so. Thanks!

Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 10:42:34 PMAh, perhaps there's a misunderstanding here; the proposal is indeed that we update the V4.0 New Formats NL version of ROTL. Did you think we meant something else? We should clarify this before moving any further ahead with anything. See the this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=108424) for exactly what's being proposed.

Indeed, the confusion is all mine: I got it the other way around! :forehead: For some very strange reason, I kept thinking the two 120-level packs was based on the v2.0 RotL pack and then Lemmings Assemble is based on v4.0 if you think it's still best to collaborate our efforts together. My mistake. Not only that, that one's only 210 levels (not counting the secret levels, and even counting them it comes a bit short of 240 anyway :P) and hence it wouldn't be the even 120 split for the two mini-packs. That's what happens when I spent so much on getting an update posted for eric's SuperLemmini RotL conversions working tirelessly over the last several days that I was just flustered with how many issues in them bothered me that warranted an update IMO and hence I get mixed up about things :XD:

Yes, splitting the current v4.0 RotL pack into two packs of 120 levels each and then as a result Lemmings Assemble is its own thing independent of any of the RotL packs (save for any levels that get used from the Outtakes and overflow/extra pool) available makes complete sense to me now. People who want to contribute to Lemmings Assemble by making levels for it now makes sense :P Before with my mix-up, I was thinking, what's the purpose of people making levels for it then if you're basing it on v4.0 if you decide that's how it should be after doing the two packs of 120 levels each first, them being based (incorrectly, as I now see my mix-up and mistake) on v2.0?

In any case, now that my update for the SuperLemmini conversions are posted, unless there are issues that I missed that need fixing, that's that for them and they won't be brought up again as they're at least archived here on the Forums ;) Now I can completely turn my focus on doing a long overdue update for the v4.0 RotL (2022 version) pack which is where my contributions should be in regards to this project! :thumbsup: 

Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 10:42:34 PMAgreed, but things do need to move or nothing will get done. I'm happy for the general pace to be slower than it would be if I was working on it alone, but I'll also probably push for regular, tangible progress wherever possible. It's probably a good idea to set small goals that we can tick off once they're achieved, and try not to go back over stuff we've already decided on.

Yes, I got that. What I'm getting at here is that it's all right if nothing gets done with this, as it's not the end of the world or anything if so. However, as I already mentioned a few times before, I agree about not leaving the 2022 RotL pack the way it currently is. I've been meaning to update the pack, I just haven't gotten around to doing much work towards that yet or thought too much of it with everything else I have going on with my life outside of Lemmings or other priorities I have :P

Quote from: WillLem on April 02, 2026, 02:48:15 AMI suggest that we fix any backroutes that we know of this time around, and then sign the pack off as final. That is, IMO we shouldn't go back and fix it later, even if something else is found. The older levels will then exist as snapshots, and we can move forward with the newer ones.

Well, I don't think it'll be possible to fix all backroutes with only one update, even if I'm quite careful about nearly everything I do. Here, I would suggest giving it maybe 3 versions, similar to how you detailed me your approach to backroute fixing your levels, especially for those of yours you really like. I believe it went something like you give yourself 3 attempts, but if it's still backroutable after those 3 editions, you just don't bother fixing it up anymore. I think that's a good approach, even if I myself haven't made much use of it or given myself any kind of hard limit number on backroute fixes yet! :P Guess I'm one of those who prefers to release as many updates as is necessary until my level is finally fully backroute-proof. However, as I don't have any levels in the 2022 RotL version and that I'm fixing up other people's levels, I'll very likely relax this point when backroute fixing them, especially as a lot of them we don't know what's the intended solution anyway.

---

Anyway, I appreciate you wanting me to get involved and thinking that I'll (along with everyone else who will be doing some part in it) be valuable in contributing to the project! :thumbsup: When we do eventually get to Lemmings Assemble much later down the road, again I'll consider contributing some levels of mine and/or making levels for it, though not a guarantee for the latter. Also, to be clear, I definitely am getting involved, as I mentioned that I been meaning to update the 2022 RotL pack for quite some time now. This would definitely be a good opportunity for me to do so while things are fresh again. Admittedly, it's thanks to @hrb264 that I've been revisiting RotL again for the past several weeks, when she had been posting her progress on solving the levels of the pack and that she got held up on JAILBREAK and I decided to take a look to see if it's solvable in SuperLemmini in order to help her out with the level roadblock! :thumbsup:

One thing, and that is I would suggest letting the poll run its course first before we commit to our duties. I highly doubt it'll reverse in the next several days to overturn the green light to go ahead with it, but let's see first. I haven't voted yet, but I'm definitely one of the "yeses" for sure! :thumbsup:

Because there was a bit of confusion with some people over what was being proposed for the project, I had a brilliant idea last night, and that is I suggest making separate in-development topics for each of the 3 packs you had in mind. I believe Proxima had the idea of making a separate topic from this one for level selection, and I agree. It should be possible to split them here, and if so, let me know how you want them to be split when I'm making the topics :) Otherwise, we can simply make new topics for them without splitting any posts here, but I do think we'll be able to split the posts. This topic has gotten plenty of posts already and hence things could very quickly get out of hand again, so I think we should split them when we get the chance! ;) 

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 02, 2026, 08:44:41 AMNot only that, that one's only 210 levels (not counting the secret levels)

This is of course correct: v2 has 210 levels (7 x 30), not 270 as I said in my earlier post. I've fixed the post now with all the calculations that follow from this. The total number of available levels (v2 and v4 combined) is still 341.

I'll start a new topic for level selection for the first two packs very soon.

I wish all of you good luck. It takes coordination and compromise.

Consider long-term maintainership, i.e., longer than 10 years. Is a proof replay enough for coverage/documentation? E.g., Proxima has many anything-goes levels in the Lix lemforum pack, and Proxima judged my player solutions fine even when they varied from his proof replay in fundamental ways. Such mismatch would have been judged a backroute in other levels.

This is a general worry about long-term changes of level maintainership. It's not particular to this collaboration.

-- Simon

Thank you for the kind words.

I can't speak for the whole team here, but my hope is that by putting in the work now, we'll reach a version we're happy to sign off on as the definitive final version so that no long-term maintenance is necessary (especially as the NL engine will now have no further updates). If more backroutes turn up later, we just accept that the pack isn't perfect.

One reason for this decision is that the pack is over 12 years old now and is a compilation of (mostly) even older levels; most of the authors aren't around to consult about intended solutions. There are some exceptions, and of course we can use our own judgement as to what backroutes should be prevented; but the ideal state of having a compilation of intended solutions to consult is unreachable.

Another is that I don't have the time or energy to put more into this pack than helping to make one more version, and I'd like it to be done so that I can move on and get back to finishing my own pack (which I have been promising to do for years at this point).

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 02, 2026, 08:44:41 AMYes, splitting the current v4.0 RotL pack into two packs of 120 levels each and then as a result Lemmings Assemble is its own thing independent of any of the RotL packs (save for any levels that get used from the Outtakes and overflow/extra pool) available makes complete sense to me now.
...
I agree about not leaving the 2022 RotL pack the way it currently is

Glad to know. It's important that we all want the same thing here, and we seem to (which is great!) :thumbsup:

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 02, 2026, 08:44:41 AMI don't think it'll be possible to fix all backroutes with only one update ... Here, I would suggest giving it maybe 3 versions, similar to how you detailed me your approach to backroute fixing your levels

Absolutely, that's reasonable.

The only thing I'd suggest is that perhaps rather than a fixed number limit, it may be best to set a deadline after which "no more fixes" is put in place (similar to namida's approach with NL). That might be more appropriate for this particular project, and means that you can revise levels as many times as you see fit up until that date.

It's ultimately up to you how you want to approach this, though. Whatever you think is best.

Quote from: kaywhyn on April 02, 2026, 08:44:41 AMOne thing, and that is I would suggest letting the poll run its course first before we commit to our duties.

Agreed, with the exception of Proxima drafting the first pack. It's a good way to get the ball rolling, and is unlikely to be impacted too much by the votes anyway.

Quote from: Proxima on April 03, 2026, 10:27:35 AMmy hope is that by putting in the work now, we'll reach a version we're happy to sign off on as the definitive final version so that no long-term maintenance is necessary (especially as the NL engine will now have no further updates). If more backroutes turn up later, we just accept that the pack isn't perfect.

Strongly, strongly agree.

Whatever kaywhyn decides as regards to backroute-fix limits, it seems to be clear to all of us that there should be a limit, and that limit shouldn't be surpassed, at least not by any of us.

One of the main purposes of this project is to have a set-and-forget couple of packs which don't need endless maintenance, and then a new pack to which we can add levels going forward.

Quote from: Proxima on April 03, 2026, 10:27:35 AMI'd like it to be done so that I can move on and get back to finishing my own pack (which I have been promising to do for years at this point).

Can't wait! :lemcat:

Quote from: WillLem on April 04, 2026, 12:19:52 AMThe only thing I'd suggest is that perhaps rather than a fixed number limit, it may be best to set a deadline after which "no more fixes" is put in place (similar to namida's approach with NL). That might be more appropriate for this particular project, and means that you can revise levels as many times as you see fit up until that date.

Not a bad idea actually. This will ultimately depend on what levels made the cut and how easy they are to backroute fix.

QuoteAgreed, with the exception of Proxima drafting the first pack. It's a good way to get the ball rolling, and is unlikely to be impacted too much by the votes anyway.

Honestly, I would had waited for the poll to close before doing even the task of selecting levels, but if some people want to do so (and already have, from what it sounds like from at least 2 or 3 people), then sure, I guess :P Just don't want it to be a case of work gets done only for it to be all for naught because there were more "no's" than "yeses" when the poll closes :P Again, I highly doubt the yeses will get overturned, but you never know. Though of course we could always override the poll decision and still go ahead with the project even in the case of the no's having more votes. Then in this case, when the level selection gets done wouldn't matter anymore, whether before or after the poll closes ;)

It doesn't really matter, as I'll be the one putting the pack together for this awesome community anyway based on what we decide as a group on what levels should and shouldn't make the cut. It's good practice for me anyway, as I too have a level pack of my own that's been a WIP for some time now ;) Link with more info in my signature :)     

QuoteWhatever kaywhyn decides as regards to backroute-fix limits, it seems to be clear to all of us that there should be a limit, and that limit shouldn't be surpassed, at least not by any of us.

One of the main purposes of this project is to have a set-and-forget couple of packs which don't need endless maintenance, and then a new pack to which we can add levels going forward.

If any issues with the levels do arise after the finished product is posted, I may still continue to do long-term maintenance on the pack and release updates as appropriate and if I see it necessary, even if no one else is interested in working on it further. That's fine with me if so ;) I will very likely post and ask if what I spot is necessary to fix before doing so :P   

Quote from: Proxima on April 02, 2026, 04:36:56 PMv2 has 210 levels (7 x 30), not 270 as I said in my earlier post. I've fixed the post now with all the calculations that follow from this. The total number of available levels (v2 and v4 combined) is still 341.

Heh, didn't even notice your inaccuracy on the level count for the V2 pack :P Thank you for your complete honesty ;)

Just to say thanks so much @kaywhyn for taking a look at that level. At some point I'll revisit it again  :D