Sorry if this has already been suggested, I could not fin it.
As a third alternative to show the number of lemmings already saved compared to the required number, why not use a "saved/required" syntax in the skill panel ?
So for instance in Just Dig if you have already saved 3 lemmings, the panel would show "3/10".
The negative saved count in vanilla NL is nice, but still kind of weird to use a negative number. And the alternative offered in CE forces players to mouse over the saved count to see the required count. With "saved/required" you see all infos at once.
Quote from: Guigui on February 07, 2026, 02:21:17 PMAs a third alternative to show the number of lemmings already saved compared to the required number, why not use a "saved/required" syntax in the skill panel ?
Simply: space is at a premium on the skill panel.
It has been suggested before, and I've explored the possibilities significantly.
Levels can have hundreds of lemmings, and even in levels with 99 or fewer lemmings, "nn/nn" takes up 5 characters on the panel. At present, the skill panel allows a total of 38 characters, and they are currently assigned as follows:
Chars 01 - 12: Lemming action. We need to be able to fit (at least) "PLATFORMER n" here, which is all 12 characters.
Chars 13 - 14: Replay icon, space.
Chars 15 - 20: Hatch icon, space, 3 chars for number of lems in hatch, space.
Chars 21 - 26: LemsOut icon, space, 3 chars for number of lemmings active in the level, space.
Chars 27 - 32: Exit icon, space, 3 chars for number of lemmings saved, space.
Chars 33 - 38: Time icon, space, 4 chars for time limit (n-nn).
Our options are these:
1) Truncate the skill actions to some amount of characters, and take what we need from the 'Lemming action' area. The athlete info only needs 7 characters, and it could be acceptable to display "PLATF n" instead of "PLATFORMER n", for instance. That would buy us 5 characters.
2) Remove the space between each icon and its corresponding values. That buys us 4 characters, and just about covers the cost of "nnn/nnn" (which would need to be supported even if we set the position of the digits dynamically).
3) Don't display 'lemmings active', or incorporate 'lemmings active' into 'lemmings in hatch', displaying "iii/nnn" where i is the number of lems in the hatch, and n is the number of lems active in the level. This could work, but there is also potential for confusion, especially since n can update without i updating (for example, if the RR is slow and a lem is lost). Nonetheless, removal of 'lemmings active' as a separate display buys us an extra 6 characters, which is significant.
4) Extend the width of the skill panel. This was done in SuperLemmix, bringing the total available skills up to 14 and adding a Rewind button (whilst also removing the half-buttons for framestepping, direction select, etc). It could buy us a significant number of characters, and we could add some more buttons (or increase the number of available skills). This would increase the minimum window width for NeoLemmix CE though, and would require a decent amount of community support to go ahead.
5) Make the skill panel hi-res only. This effectively doubles the number of available characters to a whopping 76, albeit in smaller font (see the display in RetroLemmini for how this might look). Plenty to display whatever we wish, but very difficult to get people to agree to.
I'm not totally against any of the above options, but nor do I think any of them are better than what we have now (i.e. a well-spaced panel that makes the best of what's available and does ultimately display all the most significant information).
If someone can come up with a better suggestion, or voice support for any the ideas presented here, displaying "saved/needed" is by no means off the table.
Thanks for the explanations, and sorry for making you write them all over again !
Now that I played a little more and think about it, the "already saved" number is not that important while playing. The "remaining to be saved" is much more important. This is certainly why the negative saved count had been used in the first place.
In this sense, having the "already saved" displayed on screen may be nice, but not to the point of having to rework the whole skill panel. This is also why I was kinda disappointed by the new display offered where you only see this "already saved" and have to mouse over to see the "remaining to be saved" which is the true needed info.
Out of the possibilities you listed, I can only see 2) viable, but now I'm not even sure this would be worth implementing. Finally the negative count was not that bad, except that this negative number is still weird. Why not just putting the required number as a positive number next to the flag, and decrease it as player saves some.
Also a thing that disturbs my brain is that the "in hatch" number is displayed before the "total" number. The other way around would make more sense to me. So all in all, my little opinion would be to display like this :
Lem_icon (space) total number -- hatch_icon (space) remaining in hatch number -- flag_icon (space) positive remaining to be saved
This is almost the same as in vanilla NL, except total and in hatch are switched, and the required saved does not have the minus sign.
Quote from: Guigui on February 08, 2026, 01:58:45 PMWhy not just putting the required number as a positive number next to the flag, and decrease it as player saves some.
What about once it reaches 0 and lems are still entering the hatch?
This is one of the problems with the negative saved display actually: once it reaches 0, the positive number thereafter becomes somewhat meaningless. If it reads "7", for example, what that actually means is "the save requirement + 7".
One thing that could make sense is this:
:lemming: Display the positive "to be saved" number whilst the requirement has not been met. Count down as lems are saved.
:lemming: Once 0 is reached, switch to displaying the total saved (change colour as well). Count up as lems are saved.
The negative display could do a similar thing, although it would actually be exactly the same but with a "-" symbol, so could probably just be retired altogether.
Quote from: Guigui on February 08, 2026, 01:58:45 PMAlso a thing that disturbs my brain is that the "in hatch" number is displayed before the "total" number. The other way around would make more sense to me.
Why?
Hatch count is the total lems to begin with, before any have spawned. If we read left to right, then, this number should absolutely be at the start of the display, should it not?
Quote from: WillLem on February 09, 2026, 04:38:24 AMWhat about once it reaches 0 and lems are still entering the hatch?
This is one of the problems with the negative saved display actually: once it reaches 0, the positive number thereafter becomes somewhat meaningless. If it reads "7", for example, what that actually means is "the save requirement + 7".
One option for this would be to display extra saves as '+X'. This could work with both negative and non negative req count really, but for the case of using a positive req counting down adding '+' in front after saving enough helps differentiate it. A plus in and of itself also kinda denotes 'extra' a lot of times, so it's indicating they're bonus as well. And it doesn't take up any more space than the minus already does.
I do agree with Dominator_101 here : display required only with positive red number. Turn it blue or green once it reaches 0, then display "+"extra_saved before it if it goes over the requirement.
As for the order of the displays I dont really know how to explain. It would just make more sense to me to have a decreasing sequence at the beginning, like for instance :
Total=100 -- Still_in_hatch=80 -- To_be_saved=98
This may be just me, and is not important at all actually.
A reason behind putting {saved minus required} and {lems alive} next to each other: You compare these counts to see how many you can lose. {Lemmings in hatch} is unrelated, and should go to the side.
Don't use red for the completely normal state (level not yet won) that you see 95 % of the time.
The negative count has always been questionable UI; we did it because it saved space and because it uncluttered the panel. It makes sense in theory, too: It's a debt. saved/required was nicer, but it needed 4 numbers. History: Clam proposed in 2015 to show the save requirement during play. (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2329)
It's conceivable to write {lemmings in hatch} onto the hatch instead of into the panel. Reason: When you need this number, you're looking near the hatch anyway. Unsure.
The NL panel comes from the archaic design of Lemmings 1's panel, which hid the save requirement. NL panel's main value is nostalgia.
-- Simon
Quote from: Dominator_101 on February 09, 2026, 01:35:09 PMOne option for this would be to display extra saves as '+X'. This could work with both negative and non negative req count really, but for the case of using a positive req counting down adding '+' in front after saving enough helps differentiate it.
Yes, that could work.
However, I can't help but think that the panel display should be as simple as possible. Even with a "+" simple, the question then becomes "added to what?" (it isn't necessarily obvious that it means "added to the save requirement"). Although, admittedly, the "+" would probably be interpreted as "surplus" by the majority of players.
Anyways, I've given this topic a bit more thought and I keep coming back to this idea:
:lemming: Always display a positive number.
:lemming: Count downwards whilst the save requirement hasn't been met - so, at this point, the number is "how many lemmings still need to be saved", which is what the player most needs to know. No "-/+", no asking the player to do sums, just show the information as plainly as possible. And, show this number in either yellow or blue.
:lemming: As soon as the save requirment is met, immediately switch to showing "total saved", and continue to count upwards from there as more lems are saved. And, show this number in green.
All things considered, I think this might be the best possible option.
I have to agree with you here will, except maybe with the immediate switch.
When player reaches the required number, I'd say the display should turn green and remain at 0, following the logic of 'this number is what I still have to save'
Then switch to positive only when player saves extra lemmings.
Also switching for 0 to total saved makes sense, but creates a discontinuity in the display that can be hard to interpret if player has forgotten the required number. I'd rather see +1 +2 and so on but this may be just me.
Also why not changing the flag icon to a victory icon when requirement is met ? This could clarify the interpretation of the number next to it.
After giving this some thought, how about this for an idea:
Instead of separate diplays for "In Hatch" and "Available in Level", we can display these in the same area using a single icon and 2 number displays. We can also do the same for the exit, showing "Still To Be Saved" and "Saved". Like this:
InHatch :hatch-icon: Available [space] ToSave :exit-icon: Saved
Here's a mockup:
(https://i.ibb.co/99B2rkGf/image.png)
In the above example, the level has 99 lemmings and a save requirement of 99. There are 96 lemmings in the hatch, 3 have spawned and are available in the level. None have yet been saved.
We'd still use traffic light colours and a "Save requirement met" indicator (such as a checkmark or medal) in addition to the above. The number to the right of the hatch would turn red if there aren't enough lemmings available to meet the save requirement.
All numbers are positive or 0, and each have their own dedicated meaning. No switching, no additional symbols or asking the player to do sums or interpret the display.
This seems like it could be the best overall solution to this ongoing problem.
Don't use red for the benign state (none saved yet) that you see 70 % of the time.
Required mental computation with this display: 46 (hatch) 27 (space) 79 (exit) 5, how many more may die here? Can you still win?
Printing {alive in the level, excluding what's in the hatch} can't be optimal if room is costly. Consider printing {alive in level + in hatch} instead. That would have helped me more toward computing winnability than {alive in level} and {alive in hatch} separately helped me. There are more detailed arguments in those 10-year-old topics for what exact numbers are helpful.
How will the panel look after the hatch is empty? Does it still make sense to show a hatch icon then, and not a lemming icon?
-- Simon
Agree with Simon that total number of Lemmings is more important than already spawned. So in the case of :
* 99 lemmings total
* 3 spawned, 96 still in hatch
* 99 to be saved
* 0 already saved
I'd rather see those numbers and in this order :
99 -- 96 -- 0 -- 99
However, I'm not sure the proposed solution is easy to read for newcomers. Removing an icon space sure allows to display one more number, but displaying the total required which does not change during the whole level is not a big gain imo. I'd stick to the following 3 displays :
Icon - Total Lems -- Icon - Still in hatch Lems -- Icon - Still to be saved Lems (turns to extra saved Lems if any)
Quote from: Simon on February 12, 2026, 09:02:48 PMDon't use red for the benign state (none saved yet) that you see 70 % of the time.
OK.
Quote from: Simon on February 12, 2026, 09:02:48 PMConsider printing {alive in level + in hatch} instead ... Does it still make sense to show a hatch icon then, and not a lemming icon?
Lemming icon is probably better, yes.
Quote from: Guigui on February 12, 2026, 10:33:38 PMAgree with Simon that total number of Lemmings is more important than already spawned. So in the case of :
* 99 lemmings total
* 3 spawned, 96 still in hatch
* 99 to be saved
* 0 already saved
I'd rather see those numbers and in this order :
99 -- 96 -- 0 -- 99
Reading left-to-right, the numbers make more sense in this order:
96 still in hatch (the hatch is where the lems start, so this should be the first number), then ->
99 total lemmings available ->
99 to be saved ->
0 saved (the exit is where the lems finish, so should be the last number)
Quote from: Guigui on February 12, 2026, 10:33:38 PMdisplaying the total required which does not change during the whole level is not a big gain imo
Agreed, ideally none of the numbers being displayed should be static. That's one of the big arguments against nn/nn in the first place (i.e. /nn doesn't change, so why display it?).
When I suggested "ToSave" above, I meant how many still need to be saved accounting for those already saved, not the save requirement itself.
Quote from: Guigui on February 12, 2026, 10:33:38 PMIcon - Total Lems -- Icon - Still in hatch Lems -- Icon - Still to be saved Lems (turns to extra saved Lems if any)
Switching to another number could work, but it should be the
total saved, not
additional saved. We don't want to ask the player to do sums. Just present the information.
So, maybe one of these options is best:
OPTION A: HatchLems
:lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE] SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved
:exit-icon: TotalSaved
OPTION B: HatchLems
:lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE]
:exit-icon: SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved (switches to TotalSaved)
OPTION C: :lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE] SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved
:exit-icon: TotalSaved
OPTION D: :lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE]
:exit-icon: SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved (switches to TotalSaved)
I think any of these could work.
Hum hum, this is starting to be kind of crazy how we can turn around for a thing that does not look that important! I'd say the main point is : "display SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved on screen at all time".
You're the coder and the one who handles the CE, and I'll be glad any method you choose as long as the main point is fulfilled.
So I'll just give what would be my personnal preference, then what I'd say would be a good compromise with what you suggest, and will leave the decision to you !
OPTION Guigui: :lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE] :hatch-icon: LemsInHatch [SPACE] :flag-icon: SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved (stays at 0 when clear, switches to +ExtraSaved)
OPTION Compromise: :hatch-icon: LemsInHatch [SPACE] :lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE] :flag-icon: SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved (switches to +TotalSaved)
I think we can get it down to just this:
OPTION E: :lemming-icon: TotalLemsAvailable [SPACE] :flag-icon: SaveRequirementMinusAlreadySaved (switches to +TotalSaved)
As Simon pointed out, we don't really need the hatch number. Or, we can use the existing hatch number which is displayed when a hatch has a lemming cap; instead of only using this when the hatch is capped, just use it all the time.
This can work. Though make sure the Lems in hatch number is always visible.
Sometimes it disappears behind terrain, or out of the level if hatch is too close from the borders.
Maybe force it to display clearly when player mouses over the hatch ?
Making the minimal changes necessary to begin with, we now have this:
(https://i.ibb.co/9kzLhCfv/image.png)
From L-R: Lems yet to spawn, total lems available, (save requirement - already saved). The last of these now answers 2 questions: what is the save requirement (which can still be viewed by mousing over the icon)? How many are still to be saved? And meanwhile doesn't create any questions like "why is this a negative number"? Good.
.
.
.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z65svJCZ/image.png)
All lems have spawned. 15 are available, 5 have been saved (so 5 have still yet to be saved)
.
.
.
(https://i.ibb.co/1YVnt46W/image.png)
10 are available, and the save requirement has now been met (we show 0 in green).
.
.
.
(https://i.ibb.co/gFV7DM5j/image.png)
After a single additional lemming is saved, the save count starts to show the total saved. At this point, 5 are still available and a total of 15 have been saved.
...
We could probably continue to show hatch lems on the panel tbh, there's not really any need to remove it and create UI junk elsewhere. I'd still prefer to keep it as the first item displayed, because it will normally be the first to reach 0 and become no longer relevant, and it's the first number that possibly can change.
The above could probably be enough just by itself to meet the OP's needs, but perhaps additional UI such as a light-up or checkmarked exit could provide further feedback.
Thoughts so far?
Thanks for the screenshots WillLem, they allow to better understand how things work :thumbsup:
Thoughts :
* Order of display : oh well it works that way. I dont know why it'd seem more natural to me with Total Lems first, but whatever.
* Total Saved / +Extra Saved I still think that displaying the Total Saved once objective has been fulfilled may create confusion. In the example above if you reach the requirement the displays turn to 0, OK.
But then saving another Lemmings makes the display jump to 11 and creates a discontinuity : 0->11 with a single Lemmings in ? Hard to interpret for the player imo.
Making the display go to +1 sounds easier to interpret. Sure you can not see the required total, but who cares since you just reached it anyway ?
Also reading "Flag +1" makes it quite clear that you have reached the flag and have an extra lemming saved. However : "Flag 11 (blue)" is quite the same as "Flag 11 (green)" but one means "you still have 11 to save" and the other means "you have saved 11". Quite confusing again.
It'd be nice to hear other players thoughts on this ? Or maybe just create an option that allows to choose one or the other ?
* Color Scheme Blue for objective not reached looks weird imo. For now blue is for "description when hovering over something". I'd suggest :
* Yellow while not reached, then turn to green. Need some tests to see if yellow on screen most of the time is not too disturbing.
* Green while not reached, then turn to blue. This way you see all green most of the time and blue for victory. Sounds fine too.
Finally : maybe add a short (blue) description of the numbers when you mouse over them ? The same way you get a skill description when you mouse over them in the skill panel.
Quote from: Guigui on February 15, 2026, 04:12:11 PM* Order of display : oh well it works that way. I dont know why it'd seem more natural to me with Total Lems first, but whatever.
Another good(ish) reason to have hatch lems first: this is what NL users are used to. Yes, with CE, I'm happy to completely re-work all UI elements if it makes things undeniably better, but in this particular case the status quo happens to support my own judgement and I see no good reason to change it.
Quote from: Guigui on February 15, 2026, 04:12:11 PM"Flag 11 (blue)" is quite the same as "Flag 11 (green)" but one means "you still have 11 to save" and the other means "you have saved 11". Quite confusing again.
It'd be nice to hear other players thoughts on this ? Or maybe just create an option that allows to choose one or the other ?
Well tbf, Dominator_101 previously stated (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=107932) that "+" would be preferable for much the same reasons as you have given, so that's 2:1 in favour of "+".
An idea, then. Get rid of negative save count and instead make the option "count down from SR" or "count up from 0". If "count down" is chosen, we can display "+" and the additional lems saved once 0 is reached (this is actually identical to the current negative save count display except that we're not showing "-" and are instead showing "+" once SR is passed). "Count up from 0" can then always display the total. Both options can also make use of color and icons to denote "SR passed".
Quote from: Guigui on February 15, 2026, 04:12:11 PMBlue for objective not reached looks weird imo. For now blue is for "description when hovering over something". I'd suggest ... Yellow while not reached, then turn to green.
I chose Blue because the time limit is currently Blue when the level has a time limit and is counting down. This seems somewhat consistent, then. I've changed "hover" color to Teal for the SR, which admittedly is less consistent since everything else is Blue when hovered, but honestly it looks pretty good. Yellow just doesn't look that great tbh; it's the current colour used when not displaying negative save count, so you can preview it in the current RC if you want to see how it looks. Let's give the Blue a try in the next RC and see what we think.
Quote from: Guigui on February 15, 2026, 04:12:11 PMadd a short (blue) description of the numbers when you mouse over them ?
Yes, good idea. We can do this for sure.
EDIT: Went ahead and added most of the above. Here's a screenshot showing the teal SR when moused-over (plus panel hint):
(https://i.ibb.co/JWsQ8CGN/image.png)
And, here's the Exit flag with checkmark when SR is met, and "+" showing extra lems saved:
(https://i.ibb.co/Kp8h81t1/image.png)
NOTE: The "+" and checkmarked exit flag have had to be added as extra characters to the panel display, so require "ce-" prefixed gfx. These will be embedded into CE.exe, but can also be modded by adding a "ce-" prefixed image to either level pack or gfx/panel folder.
EDIT 2: After testing this for a bit, we can totally do away with the option and the mouseover SR (which is actually now both redundant and somewhat confusing), and instead push reliance on the mouseover panel hints and Exit flag to convey exactly what's happening.
If we all agree that the most useful values are "how many are still left to be saved?" and "how many have I saved in total?", with the former being most important before SR is met and the latter being most important after SR is met, we can do 'count down until 0, switch to total' and change the panel hint from 'TO SAVE' to 'SAVED'. This, along with the Exit checkmark and the change of colour, is clear, simple, uncluttered, and doesn't require an option.
Let's try it this way first, and if people still want to show "+ Extra Saved" then we can add that in later.
Sounds nice, let's go with the EDIT 2 then !
You can be sure I'll try the new RCE and give my thoughts on the new settings and colors ... and may be the first one to ask for + Extra Saved ;)
OK... one last revision to this before I call it. We now have the following.
There are now 2 options, 1) Count down from SR, and 2) Count up from 0:
+ If counting down from SR, once 0 is reached, show "0+n" normally (where n is {extra saved}), and {total saved} on mouseover
+ If counting up from 0, show total saved at all times, and until SR is reached, show {SR - total saved} on mouseover
This allows both options to cover all bases, whilst providing users with the option to display the save count in whatever way makes the most sense to them.
End of discussion, let's test it in the RC and see what we think :)
(Implemented in NLCEPlayer commit aee9b15.)