Edit Simon: History that lead to this discussion:
geoo linked the 2013 list of games and editors (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1618.0).
WillLem suggested to improve the 2013 list.
Below is WillLem's original post. "This post" means the 2013 list.
We should ideally update this post to include newer engines that are currently in development, and remove those that are now outdated and no longer maintained.
Suggested additions:
SuperLemmix
RetroLemmini
GoLems
Suggested removals:
Lemmini / SuperLemmini (certainly no need for both of these to be on here)
jLevelBuilder
Cheapo
I'd also suggest that we point to the L1 topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=48732) from here as well.
EDIT: We could even merge the two topics into a single topic which links to all relevant ports/engines.etc.
I recommend to preserve this (2013 list of game engines) as it is, as an historic artifact. It's not a websearch landing pad, unlike the maintained How to Play L1 on Modern Computers.
It would be better to rewrite my half-baked How to Play and Create Custom Levels (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3232), then point to that rewrite from the 2013 list. But that's also from 2017, and I think it's good to rewrite from scratch these things every 5-10 years.
Best: Duplicate How to play L1 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1988) and adapt it to the separate task of joining custom level culture, i.e., to both playing and editing. The format of the post can still be like How to play L1. It always starts with installing some custom engine. But the choice/order/instructions of the engines will be different. Presumably CE/NL -> Lix -> RetroLemmini -> SuperLemmix (assuming you maintain that still) -> Golems (if that has custom level upload), eyeballed by how much attention these draw? You don't have to cover it all, nobody knows all of them by heat.
I'll do that in 2026 when I'm back at my main computer. Or you can spearhead it and I'll join the effort.
Either way, I'll link to the result from here.
Quote from: WillLem on December 28, 2025, 02:29:59 AMI'd also suggest that we point to this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=48732) from here as well.
"This post" is "How to play Lemmings (1991) on a modern PC" and the 2013 list already links there. It's only that the link has the older caption "How to play old Lemmings on a modern PC". Will update the link caption.
Quotemerge the two topics
I prefer to keep the duplication. Both posts are for newbies. The most common question is how to play L1, and the instructions for playing L1 should have have no clutter. Level editing is clutter. Lix is clutter.
-- Simon
It's good to maintain a list (with short descriptions and links) to currently maintained engines, to help new arrivals connect with the content they are most likely to want.
But it's also good to keep these lists of older engines, as there are many reasons readers might want to check them out. Cheapo, for example, had hundreds, maybe thousands, of levels made for it that have never been converted to more recent engines.
Quote from: Proxima on December 28, 2025, 04:03:13 AMCheapo, for example, had hundreds, maybe thousands, of levels made for it that have never been converted to more recent engines.
Do we have an existing way to convert this content to .nxlv (or .lvl or .ini)?
If not, this could be a good project for someone (I already have more than enough to deal with Lemmings-wise, but would be happy to support the project if someone else wants to take it on).
Quote from: Simon on December 28, 2025, 03:35:26 AMBest: Duplicate How to play L1 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1988) and adapt it to the separate task of joining custom level culture, i.e., to both playing and editing.
...
I'll link to the result from here.
Good idea. If I get some time, I'll do this. I'd suggest keeping the list as easy-to-read as possible. We don't need to list lots and lots of features, we can just name the engine, link to it, and give a brief description which conveys the engine's main USP (very much like the OP in this topic, come to think of it).
Really, the "How to play L1" should also be simplified further. People want to see links to click and brief overviews, not big paragraphs of information. They can get that information once they've clicked the relevant link; the brief overview should tell them if it's a version they want, or not.
Quote from: WillLem on December 28, 2025, 04:10:01 AMDo we have an existing way to convert this [Cheapo] content to .nxlv (or .lvl or .ini)?
Not automatically! The problem is that Cheapo levels are saved as bitmaps, so it's hard to convert that back into individual pieces. (And many Cheapo tilesets never got converted to NL.) Unless you could somehow write a program to calculate the tile locations from the bitmap, the only way would be rebuilding every level manually.
Quote from: WillLem on December 28, 2025, 04:13:27 AM"How to play L1" should also be simplified
get that information once they've clicked the relevant link
Hmm. It's possible to make extra topics: One for vanilla Lemmix (that tells you invisible hotkeys etc.), one for Amiga Emulation with the many choices, ..., then tie them together in How to Play L1. I'm sure you can condense it to half its size like that.
There is merit in seeing the full installation instructions at a glance, without indirection. Oh, that engine requires five steps to play. Oh, this runs in the browser and requires no installation.
The main worry is: Once you redirect to separate topics, those will be generally about the individual engine, not narrowly focused about getting L1 running in that engine. Maybe that's fine, at least you're now busy installing an engine that can later play L1.
You can try. We can always revert it if it sucks.
-- Simon
When I linked this topic, I was looking at the sticky topics in Level Design, which has Lemmings games, editors and setting everything up (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1619.0) as a crosspost to this topic. I didn't even realize that this topic has a different title.
This is a bit of a mess.
In Lemmings Main, we have How to play Lemmings (1991) on a modern PC (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1988.0) and How to play and create custom levels (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3232.0). I think this is a sensible choice (except that maybe we want to include other lemmings games in the first topic as well). At the same time, it makes sense to cross-post these in Help & Guides and at least the latter one in Level Design.
In Level Design, we have Lemmings games, editors and setting everything up (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1619.0) which serves the same purpose as How to play and create custom levels (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3232.0) but instead points to this topic. I think we should update the latter to include some additional information from this topic (maybe with outdated engines hidden in a collapsible tag or linking to this topic), and archive or update this topic (it has seen some updates in 2022, but is still not up to date).
In Help & Guides we have a whole load of sticky topics: This topic, one each for how to run L2/L3/L3D/Revolution, and Playing Lemmings 2 without L2-FIX (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6422.0) (which I think can be unstickied and linked in the How to play L2 topic) and .lvl and .dat: How to play and edit (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3233.0) (which I think can be unstickied and referenced by How to play and create custom levels. I'd suggest to update How to play Lemmings (1991) on a modern PC (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1988.0) to include links to the corresponding topics for L2/L3/L3D/Revolution, change the title and also crosspost it in Help & Guides.
I'm happy with every suggestion, except with how you recommend to rename How to Play L1 to encompass other games. The wish to play L1 is so common, it's the hook to reel outsiders into the culture. It deserves to stay in its own narrowly focused thread.
You can still make a catch-all sticky topic, which then links to How to Play L1 (and to those other games).
You can still link from How to Play L1 to other topics.
One thread stickied for L2 is indeed enough, and it can then link to others. We can make a new L2 thread to bind it together, or repurpose one of the existing ones.
-- Simon
Suggested format for all such lists:
Large Bold Title
:lemming: Brief summary of the main USPs (no more than 3), i.e. what are the main reasons a Forum user would enjoy the game/engine/port listed. It should be no longer than this example.
:lemming: Compatibility information.
:lemming: Download link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWR3zMaRKis) (Note: this is a dummy link that doesn't lead anywhere)
Example:
NeoLemmix
:lemming: A modern clone of lemmings that aims to keep the gameplay puzzle-focused by including various player assist tools, fixes physics bugs, and provides a platform for user-created content.
:lemming: Compatibile with Windows and Linux.
:lemming: Download NeoLemmix (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWR3zMaRKis)
The finer nuances of the engines such as steel behaviour, level formats, etc. can be discovered later. As a way in, we need to make things as concise and accessible as possible.
Quote from: Proxima on December 28, 2025, 04:56:05 AMQuote from: WillLem on December 28, 2025, 04:10:01 AMDo we have an existing way to convert this [Cheapo] content to .nxlv (or .lvl or .ini)?
Not automatically! The problem is that Cheapo levels are saved as bitmaps, so it's hard to convert that back into individual pieces. (And many Cheapo tilesets never got converted to NL.) Unless you could somehow write a program to calculate the tile locations from the bitmap, the only way would be rebuilding every level manually.
Very old versions of NL actually had tools to convert Cheapo levels. I initially looked into reconstruction of tile positions from the bitmap, but it just wasn't feasible outside of very, very simple levels (especially in rough-edged tilesets), and resorted to just treating every level as a VGASPEC level.
This is actually a relatively small problem. Having to convert the levels in a VGASPEC-like manner is a minor annoyance, not a dealbreaker.
Much bigger is the physics differences - the most significant one being that Cheapo's splat distance is about 25% longer than most other engines, including NL. This is a hugely breaking change for a lot of levels; NL had to specifically have a "Cheapo mode" (which was basically treated as a gimmick, albeit one intended for compatibility with another engine rather than to make unconventional levels) that implemented this different fall distance, as well as a couple of other Cheapo/NL differences (another one is checkerboard terrain - whereas L1 / NL allow lemmings to slip through a checkerboard hole, Cheapo would have the lemming step up instead). And of course, there's the fact that some Cheapo features are not supported by NL, most notably inverted gravity (and the associated objects).
There really isn't any "good" way to play Cheapo content at the moment. NL 1.43 is probably the best option on a modern PC; but best of all would be to dig out an old PC and put actual Cheapo on it. (I wonder - how well does it run under a VM running an older Windows, or under Linux+WINE?)
If I recall correctly, Cheapo runs reasonably well on Wine, there was just a few UI annoyances I think.
Can't check right now as I got all the Cheapo stuff on an external hard drive.