All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix Player!
NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7p8vsruzai9fvpvlcob7s/Contest_33_NL.zip?rlkey=92qpukw8cz6udyvmi7xhxn0kw&st=uyc6stqb&dl=1
Music (NeoLemmix): https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/diknladgcw0tsm2lp6eak/Contest_33_Music.zip?rlkey=9k8sm2frsr0r38wl3mio9x02a&st=cjwy514y&dl=1
Rule 1 Levels
Armani's "Underroot" (V1)
IchoTolot's "No Way In Hell!" (V2)
kaywhyn's "It's Crazy Sports Day!" (V3)
Rule 2 Levels
Armani's "Rusty Ruin Zone" (V3)
Crane's "Redneck Redemption" (V5)
IchoTolot's "Social Distancing" (V2)
kaywhyn's "Help Me, Help Dune" (V3)
Rule 3 Levels
Armani's "Benzene" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Lem In The Box" (V1)
kaywhyn's "We Got Mad Lemmings 3 Lab Skills!" (V2)
Withdrawn Levels
Crane's "Lemming Ledger" (V11)
Crane's "Reverse the Polarity" (V9)
You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0
Playing Phase will be closed on 16th of Janurary!
Updates will close on 13th of Janurary!
Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.
Link to update topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7262.0)
These are my solutions... the only levels I haven't yet beaten are, unsurprisingly, Armani's!
Quote from: Crane on November 17, 2025, 04:46:57 PMThese are my solutions... the only levels I haven't yet beaten are, unsurprisingly, Armani's!
The solutions for my levels are all fine! :)
@CraneR1 - Backroute as you might had guessed. Doh, that was a dumb on my part! :forehead: I thought it was all aligned perfectly on the right side when it was actually offset by a pixel. I've fixed that now for V3 and thanks for catching that! Apparently I forgot to check the x-coordinates this time!
R2 - Backroute as well. Added a button for V2.
R3 - Intended! Great job! :thumbsup: Now to make a version without pickups that hopefully won't be broken for my Lemmings Memories pack once I take them out, as I only plan to use them as a last resort for backroute fixing! :P
Alternatively,
Spoiler
You can dig the left pillar on the far left side with the climber instead of the right pillar. That works too. I thought about blocking this alternative off but I decided to leave it in as another nice way of solving the level ;)
Now to solve your patched levels when the time comes!
Note about kaywhyn's R3
I was going to dig away the left pillar to show off, but it's actually pretty dangerous because the lemmings follow the climber, and it risks causing them to splat as they fall down the digger shaft that's tunnelled to set up the miner.
P.S. I'm pretty sure this is the intended solution to kaywhyn's R1!
Quote from: Crane on November 17, 2025, 10:23:19 PMNote about kaywhyn's R3
I was going to dig away the left pillar to show off, but it's actually pretty dangerous because the lemmings follow the climber, and it risks causing them to splat as they fall down the digger shaft that's tunnelled to set up the miner.
Indeed, you're correct about this alternative. It does work, but it cuts it very close. I do plan to make a no pickups version of the level for my Lemmings Memories pack and I'll have to check if the alternative still works. I do plan to increase the Lemming count and maybe different entrance arrangements, but even then I could always reduce or even eliminate the possibility by
Spoiler
making the catwalk shorter
QuoteP.S. I'm pretty sure this is the intended solution to kaywhyn's R1!
Yup, intended! Great job! :thumbsup: I knew this one would be no problem for you since you use something similar in Lemmings Cranium but here I added a bit of a twist to it so that it's still pretty nasty for those who aren't aware of the main trick. Hence, it could very well still be a final rank level for my pack, though maybe the difficulty is drastically reduced thanks to there not being that many possibilities? I'll leave it as a final rank level for now and wait for further feedback!
Spoiler
This one actually has two intended ways, since the basher and miner are interchangeable! :)
@Crane :crylaugh: :crylaugh:
I can give you(and someone else!) some hints on my levels:
R1: Pretty much every skill already has a fixed place to use, except for one or two - and those are the key to solving the level.
Spoiler
You should start by sending one worker to the left (give him a climber and a floater + use a blocker to contain the crowd). The worker's first task is to dig down. Where to dig is the main part of the puzzle and once you figure that out the rest of the solution will fall into place naturally.
R2: I thought my R2 was the easiest one. I crammed a bunch of new NeoLemmix quirks into it, so the unfamiliarities may have added up and made the level feel trickier than it actually is.
Spoiler
First, the two workers must meet on the lower floor and build a bridge together. After that, one of them should go back upstairs to complete his own task.
R3: This one is a bit difficult, I agree. First, you have to figure out which pick-ups you actually need. Some of them look easy to reach and seem to require only a few skills, but they're actually dead ends.
Spoiler
Near the starting area, there's a pit with a basher pick-up. You need that basher, but you can't let the crowd fall in and get stuck, meaning you must send only one worker to collect it, and then save him with a climber. You also need to collect one floater. There are two floater pick-ups in the level, but one is a red herring. The one in the top-right is the red herring.
I've decided to release a V2 for my R3 not because of backroutes (no one has backrouted it yet) but to fix it up a little more to make it look better. In particular, I've replaced some steel pieces with its corresponding green piece and vice versa. Yea, I think I'm at that point where even small stuff like that in my levels bugs me :P
Completed Armani's R1 level - let me just say that was absolutely beautiful... definitely my favourite level so far. You were right about the last few skills being the puzzling ones - I worked out where everything else went, but with the remaining skills...
...it begged the question:
How do you release the crowd?!
R2 and R3 still giving me trouble unfortunately, despite your clues.
Just got Rusty Ruin Zone too - that was a tough one, but I put it down to my inexperience with splatpads.
Comments
When I finally realised I could use a Shimmier to jump into the portal, rather than trying to use Builders or assuming it was a red herring, then everything fell into place. Whenever I thought I had found a backroute or a solution, the splatpads always stopped me! Now I understand your clue about the lemmings building a bridge together and one going back upstairs, so the overhanging Digger has somewhere safe to build to.
That just leaves Benzene.
@Crane
Hey thanks for the compliments and you found the intended solutions to both levels :thumbsup:
Solved Benzene!
Comments
That Miner was absolutely diabolical! I would argue it might be a bit too precise because you need to use the turnaround builder to adjust its position slightly so you don't leave a hole in the 'joining' bridge later on. This level certainly has a lot of gotcha moments. For such a long time I thought I was a Builder short, but it turns out you don't use them in the way you think you need to.
@crane
Your solution is close enough. So close that I consider it intended :thumbsup:
Played through the contest levels :laugh:
No Way In Hell
The level looks simple with a minimal skillset, but the solution is well hidden. Watching a basher slide down a builder bridge is always satisfying!
It's Crazy Sports Day!
Nice level with two similar interesting tricks. First, you park a lemming with a blocker and later release him using a digger. Second, you temporarily store a lemming as a bomber and release him with a miner directly toward the exit. :laugh:
Social Distancing
It's a cute little level where two lemmings work together back and forth to build the path and reach different exits. Since I thought the rule was tricky to satisfy without using buttons and locked exits, I really like that you managed it without them. :thumbsup:
Help Me, Help Dune
Once you recognize the big miner extension everything falls into place nicely. I love how the two lemmings work in opposite directions at the same time, then eventually swap positions and reach the opposite exits.
Lem In The Box
Probably the hardest level in this contest... though still nothing too tricky. Diggers are the most valuable resource here, so picking up as many digger pickups as possible naturally leads you to the solution.
We Got Mad Lemmings 3 Lab Skills!
The well-placed miner was the key to solving the level. It single-handedly gathers the whole crowd and also creates the path to the exit.
You're going to hate me for this, kaywhyn!
(P.S. Armani didn't play my levels because he playtested them for me)
@ArmaniAll your solutions are intended! Great job! :thumbsup: Also thank you so much for your compliments, I'm glad you liked them! :laugh: :thumbsup:
For R1, there's actually two intended ways, since
Spoiler
the basher and miner are interchangeable with each other. The timing works out about the same, the only difference is a single pixel between the skill assignments.
Also yea, it works out perfectly because of how the L2 Sports exit is only a single pixel wide :P I originally wanted to use the ONML Bubble tileset for this ruleset, as it's my favorite graphic style from ONML, but the problem is that the exit's trigger is several pixels wide and thus one would be able to simply make the builder mine rather than require the assistance of the bottom left middle Lemming. At the same time, I suppose it could still work with any other graphic set, if for example I line up the platform like I did here so that the far most side edge is in line with the far most side of the exit trigger so that if the Lemming doesn't manage to destroy the corner pixel then the miner will simply fall past the exit trigger. Oh well, plus I would need to use a lot of eraser pieces to make the platform thin enough anyway :P
After some thought, yea, for now I'm just going to leave my R1 as a final rank level for Lemmings Memories. Sure, I kind of made the solution pretty obvious to expert level solvers like you, but it's still a pretty nasty level if one isn't aware of something like this :evil:
For R3, alternatively,
Spoiler
you can have the climber dig the right pillar instead to free the left-most entrance. That's fine as well :)
The no pickups version of this level is currently a bit harder for me to place in my Lemmings Memories pack, since I'm not certain how difficult it is. If anything, I'm thinking it's at least a rank 3 level. That and maybe 4th rank level maximum. Definitely not a 5th/final rank level, it's not THAT hard IMO!
Quote from: Crane on November 23, 2025, 06:02:04 PMYou're going to hate me for this, kaywhyn!
Heh, why would I? On the contrary, I appreciate you catching this one that I missed! :P For V3 I shifted the terrain so that it shouldn't be possible to cheese anymore no matter how you place that basher the way you did!
@Armani You solutions are all intended/acceptable alternatives, great job! :thumbsup:
Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time planning out my R2 level so no backroutes open up and create everything in a clean way.
here're the solutions to my own levels :lemcat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRdHVcEym9k&list=PLYzhWZf5q4HtJ9Une6MN-vW_WY1tLo4iN&index=7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRdHVcEym9k&list=PLYzhWZf5q4HtJ9Une6MN-vW_WY1tLo4iN&index=7)
Hi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest :)
TBH I was about to give up after to failing to complete any of the levels in R1 (Armani's I just have no idea lol, it seems impossible, Crane's I always seem to be one pixel shy of a solution whatever I do, IchoTolot's I find I'm a skill short of being able to do it and kaywhyn's, I feel I have what must be the solution but the timing means I can only save 4 out of 5). But then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?
Anyway, my replays for R2 attached - hopefully they are your intended solutions. I enjoyed all of these levels, especially Armani's Rusty Ruin Zone, which was the most challenging of the four I'd say.
@JawaJuiceYour solution to my R2 is intended! Great job and thank you for playing! :thumbsup: Regarding my R1, yea, it's a pretty sneaky one, so I think I was right to make the decision to leave it as a final rank level of my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack for the time being :P
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 25, 2025, 11:36:30 PMHi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest :)
Absolutely! These levels are open to anyone who wants to play them, not just the authors :thumbsup: In the same way, there's no requirement that you must make levels to register to be a member of this site. There's plenty of members here who play levels/packs but don't create levels or vice versa, for example. I myself was once the former when I first signed up, but with some support and encouragement from Icho and several others to give the level making side a try, I decided to try my hand at level designing! :laugh: I personally am not satisfied with some of my early Lemmings stuff, but I have improved slowly and steadily with my designs over the last several years according to several in this community :thumbsup: I've also been told that my puzzles/solutions have always been excellent, it was the visuals that had plenty of room for improvement, but I think I'm pretty much there now for the most part even though I myself have never been an artist and still am not.
As mentioned in another topic, you can also play some of mine and other people's contest levels in Armani's LDC Compilation pack ;)
QuoteBut then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?
There's generally no natural progression of increasing difficulty with the contest levels since these collection packs consists of levels from various authors. As you have already seen from trying these levels, some members tend to be associated with challenging levels. Both Icho and Armani here are a really good example. With the former, for example, yea, I generally have the same experiences with usually being a skill short anytime I play Icho's levels.
As for my stuff, I have the tendency to think my levels aren't that hard "relatively speaking" to the other levels in these contest collections. I still think this even though I've been given feedback plenty of times that my levels are challenging, which as you might guess surprises me to hear that. I have apparently made even Icho and Armani sweat hard with my levels, and the latter has even been kind enough to let me know within the past year that my more recent stuff is harder than his more recent levels :lem-mindblown: Suffice to say, I probably haven't quite reached the high end of difficulty Icho and Armani can make with their levels yet, though I suspect I'm not that far behind them in that area :laugh:
Some rulesets are very restrictive and challenging to design around and meet criteria for and hence some rulesets will have levels that are significantly easier than others for the most part. Even then, it's still very much possible to be able to make a challenging level regardless of how restrictive the rulesets are if one knows how and does it with proper care ;)
You can see the rulesets I came up with for LDC #33 in more detail here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0). This link is also in the OP on page 1 in this topic :)
No worries, @kaywhyn - I enjoyed playing R2 very much! I think your level looks great with the Dune tileset. It also gave me the most pause for thought outside of Armani's level in this rank, despite the minimal skillset. A nicely designed puzzle.
I think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha). On the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.
Your solution to "Redneck Redemption" is a backroute - nice find @JawaJuice. Released V2 in the Update thread.
Thought it seemed a bit easy! ;) I'll give V2 a look.
Not a lot different, but forced to use all skills this time, except the bomber obviously.
Ah, damn, I posted the wrong version! This was a fix I rejected because, yeah, that! V3 incoming.
I realized I also forgot the Talisman with that replay anyway :P Will check V3 :thumbsup:
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 12:24:00 AMNo worries, @kaywhyn - I enjoyed playing R2 very much! I think your level looks great with the Dune tileset. It also gave me the most pause for thought outside of Armani's level in this rank, despite the minimal skillset. A nicely designed puzzle.
Aww, thank you for the compliment telling me that I used Icho's Dune set well! I'm glad you liked my R2 :thumbsup:
QuoteI think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha).
Ah, you have indeed noticed that I did manage to solve all of Dexter's Lock & Key pack :thumbsup: Don't worry about being stumped and needing to take a break from the pack. I too had to put my LP of the pack on a brief hold for a bit when I wasn't able to get Solitude 5 solved. Luckily for me, it didn't take as long for me to get unstuck as I thought, but yea, I struggled so much throughout the entire thing. Icho was even nice enough to let me know that some of the levels of the pack I solved easily he had a hard time with and vice versa. There you have it here:
Proof that even those who most in this community consider some of the best level solvers of Lemmings get stuck too! ;)
QuoteOn the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.
The fact that you've come really close with being able to save 4/5 for my R1 is quite impressive. Well done! :thumbsup: Yea, you're close but not quite there yet. You're pretty much spot on that my R1 level requires something obscure that isn't seen very often in custom Lemmings levels. For those who have seen it before, the level's no problem at all, but for those who haven't, it's a nasty level otherwise. Hence why I personally still consider my R1 a 5th/final rank level in my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack that's currently a work in progress even if the solution is obvious to the great level solvers of this community.
Also, for contests, before the end of the playing phase, I generally record videos showing off solutions to these levels, as well as go over the intended solutions of my own levels. So, if you still haven't managed to figure out my R1 before then, you could always wait for the video where I go over my own levels to go up. When that happens, I link to it in this topic :) I do have confidence that you'll be able to get my R1 solved before that happens though! :thumbsup:
@Crane Non-Talisman solution for V3, and possibly another backroute because no refinement to this solution would get it under a minute.
This level is harder than I initially gave it credit for! Should have known with you, Crane ;)
And here's your talisman :) A different (better!) solution.
Spoiler
Tricky to pull that off, that, having to start digging at the right spot so that the blocker falls through the 1-pixel gap to the right rather than left after the digger releases him.
EDIT: Also got a solution for your R1 level. I always dread you telling me it's another backroute - I seem better at finding backroutes for your levels than intended solutions lol :D
Spoiler
For the longest time, I was trying to mine down to the crowd with a climber/miner, but having used a builder to turn him around at the top, then bomb at the end of the miner tunnel but it was always one pixel too high - I'm sure you're aware of this! So I tried to find a different approach.
Against all the odds, I managed to solve
@Armani's R1 level,
Underroot :thumbsup: Genius level really.
Spoiler
You kind of have to think backwards, sending the climber on a long journey first, and even then, how to utilize the digger took some working out! I guess this makes use of the trick (is it a trick?) that a blocker on the tip of a precipice can stop the crowd one way but doesn't prevent a climber from passing in the other direction.
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 26, 2025, 07:36:37 AMYou're pretty much spot on that my R1 level requires something obscure that isn't seen very often in custom Lemmings levels. For those who have seen it before, the level's no problem at all, but for those who haven't, it's a nasty level otherwise. Hence why I personally still consider my R1 a 5th/final rank level in my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack that's currently a work in progress even if the solution is obvious to the great level solvers of this community.
It's of course possible that I might stumble upon a trick I wasn't previously aware of just by ditching prior assumptions and trying many things, but perhaps not probable. Where do you stand on topics that detail advanced tricks? I read through Strato Incendus's Advanced Blocker Tricks topic (nothing on there I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless, probably helpful for some) and the discussion that ensued makes for interesting reading. Opinions seemed mixed on whether such a topic was a good idea or tantamount to a cheat sheet. After a quick search, that's the only topic documenting tricks that I could find.
@IchoTolot Got a solution for your R1 level.
Spoiler
I suspect it may be a backroute as not many creators use the basher/blocker trick as part of an intended solution in my experience! It was also incredibly tricky to pull off.
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 26, 2025, 07:36:37 AMI do have confidence that you'll be able to get my R1 solved before that happens though! :thumbsup:
Your confidence is well placed, it turns out ;)
Spoiler
Going back to it, I had a hunch and it worked straight away; just a process of elimination really. The lemming with the big fall has to be assigned a floater and climber, the lemmings on the far left have to be blocker and digger respectively, the other lemming has no option but to build, the final lemming has to bash through the barrier to get down in time to meet the former builder, which just leaves the miner and bomber. It occurred to me there are a few seconds before an Oh Noer explodes - long enough to mine him out and get safely to the exit. Neat trick! Haven't seen it before, but it does actually make sense and can be worked out logically.
Gonna be longer 'til my next post - all of the levels from Rule 3 are currently kicking my butt!
@JawaJuice
You found the intended solution! I'm glad you like the level. :thumbsup: Yeah, thinking backwards can really help sometimes.
Spoiler
I guess you could call this a trick. Every skill behaves as it normally does but the fact that the blocker is placed right at the edge of a cliff makes the interaction interesting.
regarding your solution to Icho's R1...
Spoiler
Ah yes, the infamous ultimate weapon for backrouting a level. :evil: It's a very powerful tool for breaking things. If I really want my level to be backroute-proof, I check whether the level can be broken if blockers are replaced with any other skill that can cancel a basher(like the walker, builder, jumper, shimmier etc...) But these days I often just live with it and move on.
Quote from: Armani on November 26, 2025, 03:11:48 PMYou found the intended solution! I'm glad you like the level. :thumbsup: Yeah, thinking backwards can really help sometimes.
A very elegantly designed puzzle with only 1 of each skill. It's probably my favourite of the pack so far ;)
OK, I finished your R3 level as well! :thumbsup: That certainly took a lot of working out, but satisfying when it all clicks into place!
Spoiler
The light bulb moment with this one was realizing I only needed 1 builder, not 2, to catch the floater on the far right bit of the level :)
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 08:01:15 AMAnd here's your talisman :) A different (better!) solution.
Spoiler
Tricky to pull that off, that, having to start digging at the right spot so that the blocker falls through the 1-pixel gap to the right rather than left after the digger releases him.
EDIT: Also got a solution for your R1 level. I always dread you telling me it's another backroute - I seem better at finding backroutes for your levels than intended solutions lol :D
Spoiler
For the longest time, I was trying to mine down to the crowd with a climber/miner, but having used a builder to turn him around at the top, then bomb at the end of the miner tunnel but it was always one pixel too high - I'm sure you're aware of this! So I tried to find a different approach.
The talisman solution is intended, but your previous solution was a backroute, but easily fixed by lowering the height of the terrain slightly. Obviously the regular intended solution doesn't require anywhere near as much precision, hence why the talisman is called "Now that's cheating!"
And to justify your fear, your solution to Lemming Ledger is a backroute and V2 has been released!
Quote from: Crane on November 26, 2025, 07:45:34 PMThe talisman solution is intended, but your previous solution was a backroute, but easily fixed by lowering the height of the terrain slightly. Obviously the regular intended solution doesn't require anywhere near as much precision, hence why the talisman is called "Now that's cheating!"
And to justify your fear, your solution to Lemming Ledger is a backroute and V2 has been released!
Yeah, thought that would be the case - the Talisman solution to Redneck Redemption 'looked right' to me, the previous one didn't. Slightly surprised Lemming Ledger is a backroute tbh, although I did think it might be due to the leftover digger. Still, I can't immediately see any other way of doing the level.
Got a solution for your R3 level, which again, is almost certainly a backroute, but again, I can't see another way to do it!
@kaywhyn Got a solution for your R3 level, which I'm fairly confident is intended.
Spoiler
You like your destructive skill extensions via builders don't you? :P
The only level in the pack that has me completely stumped at the moment is Icho's R3 level.
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 07:53:07 PMQuote from: Crane on November 26, 2025, 07:45:34 PM...
Got a solution for your R3 level, which again, is almost certainly a backroute, but again, I can't see another way to do it!
Indeed it is a backroute! V3 released.
@JawaJuice
Thanks for the 2 replays and you found some nice backroutes that need urgent fixing! :)
I updated the levels so that in my R1 you cannot go over that ridge so easily and in my R2 I put a limiter on the exits so that you have to use both. ;)
OK guys, I'll take another look! Hopefully it's clear to you that I don't mean to backroute your levels ;) I am gunning for the intended solution, believe it or not! Still, this is the nature of playtesting I guess! It's fun getting to try out levels before they're officially released :) I suppose when you amend a level to fix a backroute, it should be a small clue as to the proper way to do it.
Incidentally, assuming my solution for Armani's R2 level was intended since he didn't say it wasn't.
As a level designer, backroutes are to be expected. Obviously we hope we patched them properly, but backroutes happen, and we don't hold it against anyone if they find them.
As a level designer, do you have any view on alternative solutions you hadn't considered? Or is everything that isn't very close to the intended solution a backroute?
I had another crack at R1, probably another backroute since I didn't use the basher. Gotta say, Crane, yours and Icho's levels are devilishly hard! XD
@IchoTolotI think we're good with R1 this time :thumbsup:
Spoiler
Studying the terrain more carefully, the unusual sloping underside of the first block is a clue - about the same angle as a builder bridge, so suggests the top part of basher rails :) Neat level!
EDIT: And R2? It meets the criterion of one lemming to each exit, at least!
EDIT: And R3! That was a tough one!
@JawaJuiceYour solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job! :thumbsup:
For R1, there's actually two intended ways, since
Spoiler
the basher and miner are interchangeable in the solution :) It's true that the miner skill is a downwards moving destructive skill, but the basher skill's destruction mask starts at the row of the Lemming's feet and removes several rows of pixels above it too :P If you do it this way, you need to make sure to mine through the dart in the same way so that he is not delayed, i.e, you need to be right up against the dart when you assign the miner. Then the basher assignment to release the ohnoer is at nearly the same spot as the miner, just an extra pixel forward but the effect in the end is the same: The ohnoer touches the exit trigger on the ground in time before he explodes ;)
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 07:56:30 PMSpoiler
You like your destructive skill extensions via builders don't you? :P
Heh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this :P Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! :P This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types! :P
QuoteIt's of course possible that I might stumble upon a trick I wasn't previously aware of just by ditching prior assumptions and trying many things, but perhaps not probable. Where do you stand on topics that detail advanced tricks? I read through Strato Incendus's Advanced Blocker Tricks topic (nothing on there I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless, probably helpful for some) and the discussion that ensued makes for interesting reading. Opinions seemed mixed on whether such a topic was a good idea or tantamount to a cheat sheet. After a quick search, that's the only topic documenting tricks that I could find.
Even though I am one of those Lemmings level solvers who doesn't like hints or spoilers of any kind, I personally don't mind such a thing existing. I think they're good to have, if only to serve as reminders for those who are already aware of them, since it can be kind of easy to overlook or forget them from time to time when solving levels. I myself have the tendency to overlook the simple parts of the solution while getting the complicated solution parts quickly :P If they're hidden behind spoilers like they are in that topic of Strato's, then those who prefer to avoid them can simply not open up what's behind the spoiler tags, while those who want to know can if they like.
@JawaJuice
Close enough :thumbsup: well done!
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 11:36:02 PMAs a level designer, do you have any view on alternative solutions you hadn't considered? Or is everything that isn't very close to the intended solution a backroute?
I had another crack at R1, probably another backroute since I didn't use the basher. Gotta say, Crane, yours and Icho's levels are devilishly hard! XD
Backrouted again. V3 is out.
If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative. It's very subjective though.
One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up. Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!
Sometimes you do get happy accidents.
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 27, 2025, 03:13:51 AM@JawaJuice
Your solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job! :thumbsup:
For R1, there's actually two intended ways
Cheers, kaywhyn :thumbsup: It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!
Spoiler
Ah OK, good to know. I did wonder whether the basher and miner might be interchangeable but didn't try it that way after finding my solution. The reason I went with the basher first isn't because I thought he couldn't do the job at the end, but rather that bashers are fractionally quicker than miners and I thought that slight difference in timing could be critical.
QuoteHeh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this :P Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! :P This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types! :P
Spoiler
I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though :P I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.
Quote from: Armani on November 27, 2025, 04:04:17 AM@JawaJuice
Close enough :thumbsup: well done!
Nice! Cheers Armani :thumbsup: Great levels in this contest; nice looking, and elegant puzzles. I haven't played a lot of your stuff before, been kind of frightened away by your reputation of making super hard levels but these weren't so bad. Challenging yes, but not insurmountable ;)
Quote from: Crane on November 27, 2025, 06:23:57 AMBackrouted again. V3 is out.
If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative. It's very subjective though.
One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up. Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!
Sometimes you do get happy accidents.
I'll take another look :) It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution :P Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I :) Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 27, 2025, 08:39:12 AMCheers, kaywhyn :thumbsup: It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!
Thanks for the compliment! :thumbsup: Glad to hear you enjoyed my levels :) You've also done a great job with getting the other levels in the collection pack solved and finding some backroutes in the process. In particular, I haven't seen your solutions to Icho's R1 and R2, but I'm surprised you managed to backroute them because when I pre-tested his 3 entries I managed to get the intended solutions to all of them. Nice finds!
QuoteSpoiler
I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though :P I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.
No worries, I knew you were just messing around there with that remark :P I just thought it was funny that, out of the nearly 50 levels total I've made (some haven't been released yet, since they're for my WIP level pack) over a span of 4 (almost 5 now) years, I have only made about 5 levels that require keeping skills going and you thus associated me as someone who likes this element in my intended solutions :laugh: There's other skill types that can do the job as well, and I've yet to make those levels! ;)
Regarding the Fire level of mine you mentioned in the spoiler tag, I'm not going to say anything about the solution yet other than what I've already told you before about it being a backroute. I need to get a patch out for it, though I didn't realize I left it untouched for nearly 1.5 years :lem-mindblown: How time flies haha.
Also, thank you for the feedback of my R3 regarding the difficulty. It is a bit surprising to hear that was the hardest part for you, but as a level designer you can't always predict what parts will stump players and what parts they'll figure out quickly. More often than not, designers often underestimate the difficulty of their levels, which is easy to do because you as the creator know what's intended while other players who play them don't. Moreover, just only seeing the intended solution is what makes us designers blind to backroutes! This is where other players sending in solutions and feedback come in very handy. That's why authors often get testers for their levels/packs!
QuoteI'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha
Oh nice, another computer programmer on the Forums! :thumbsup: There's plenty of programmers/coders in this community. I'm not one, but I did have to take a C++ computer programming course in my undergrad for my math major. So yes, I'm the same way with being a logical person :) O.o, cryptic crosswords. Those are tough! Never tried one, but I know what those are. I can't even complete any kind of crossword puzzle from newspapers haha. At least not without doing them with another person or group of people :laugh:
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 27, 2025, 08:51:59 AM...
I'll take another look :) It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution :P Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I :) Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha
Well. this is an interesting one, because I too am a computer programmer and my claim to fame is that I'm a core member and contributor of source code to the Free Pascal Compiler, specialising in optimisation and assembly language, so you can't get any more logical than that! And yeah, I'm not too good at cryptic crosswords either, although I've managed to solve a few random clues, like "Bent coach stole confectionaries" (10 letters).
Quote from: Crane on November 27, 2025, 09:36:20 AMWell. this is an interesting one, because I too am a computer programmer and my claim to fame is that I'm a core member and contributor of source code to the Free Pascal Compiler, specialising in optimisation and assembly language, so you can't get any more logical than that! And yeah, I'm not too good at cryptic crosswords either, although I've managed to solve a few random clues, like "Bent coach stole confectionaries" (10 letters).
LOL what a clue - the mind boggles, or possibly recoils in horror! Wow, that's impressive stuff, Crane! I don't have much experience with assembly directly. I dabbled in 68k on the Atari ST but I've focused on high-level languages (mainly C++) in a professional capacity. You're right though, we have similar backgrounds. Perhaps I'm the less logical one after all; I've always been torn between the arts and science. My first degree was actually in English Language and Literature (so yes, odd career choice!)
Back to the topic in hand, your fix for your R1 level slowed me down but didn't stop me from bloody-mindedly pursuing my solution :P You forced me to use all of the skills this time tho!
I've made the most frustrating fix for you! V4 coming up.
I've tried to balance the arts and science too, although I have always been very focused on mathematics, physics and computing. It hasn't stopped me from doing some art and writing though.
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 27, 2025, 09:18:53 AMThanks for the compliment! :thumbsup: Glad to hear you enjoyed my levels :) You've also done a great job with getting the other levels in the collection pack solved and finding some backroutes in the process. In particular, I haven't seen your solutions to Icho's R1 and R2, but I'm surprised you managed to backroute them because when I pre-tested his 3 entries I managed to get the intended solutions to all of them. Nice finds!
Cheers! He hasn't confirmed yet, but I think I have now found the intended solutions for Icho's levels. I was surprised to backroute them too. I just normally take a path-of-least-resistance approach, rather than thinking about what the author might have intended, which sometimes leads to backroutes I guess! The exception to that was his R1 level. Initially, I couldn't really see how to do it at all, so it was more of an any-means-necessary approach, which I pretty much knew would be a backroute b/c who uses the basher/blocker trick as a key element to a solution? XD
QuoteAlso, thank you for the feedback of my R3 regarding the difficulty. It is a bit surprising to hear that was the hardest part for you, but as a level designer you can't always predict what parts will stump players and what parts they'll figure out quickly. More often than not, designers often underestimate the difficulty of their levels, which is easy to do because you as the creator know what's intended while other players who play them don't. Moreover, just only seeing the intended solution is what makes us designers blind to backroutes! This is where other players sending in solutions and feedback come in very handy. That's why authors often get testers for their levels/packs!
If you want to put it in spoilers, I'd be curious to know what others have found to be the hardest part of your R3 level, because the rest seemed relatively straightforward to me. Working out how to release those two lemmings that fall into the little well was the main headache. As I've said, I'd love to be a playtester on your upcoming pack, so bear me in mind when the time comes for testing!
QuoteOh nice, another computer programmer on the Forums! :thumbsup: There's plenty of programmers/coders in this community. I'm not one, but I did have to take a C++ computer programming course in my undergrad for my math major.
C++, now you're talking my language ;)
@JawaJuice
Thanks! I'm flattered. :cute:
If you want my more challenging stuff, you can check out my Halloween pack. Its overall difficulty is slightly above my usual contest level. But judging from how good you are at this game, it probably won't give you much trouble. I honestly don't know if my levels are that difficult though.
If you want something easier, you can look at Holiday Lemmings, which I collaborated on with Mobiethian! For that pack, I focused more on the visuals while keeping the puzzles simple.
There are also some much earlier levels I made, but those were literally the first ones I ever created, so I can't guarantee their goodness. :evil:
P.S. I used to be more of a math person back in the day, but these days I'm more into art.
Quote from: Crane on November 27, 2025, 10:18:44 AMI've made the most frustrating fix for you! V4 coming up.
I've tried to balance the arts and science too, although I have always been very focused on mathematics, physics and computing. It hasn't stopped me from doing some art and writing though.
OK! I can confirm that completely nullifies any possibility of my previous backroute.
Spoiler
After the longest time of looking at this level, a completely different approach occurred to me, operating on the hypothesis that the climber and floater are actually complete red herrings designed to lead the player into a mental prison. I gotta say, I'm really pleased with this solution, even if it turns out not to be intended :) If it was intended, then well played Crane - very clever!
@JawaJuice
Your solutions for my three entries are now intended! Great job! :thumbsup:
Your solution to Lemming Ledger is still a backroute unfortunately, and the intended solution is a bit more involved, so unfortunately can't be an alternative. Got to think how to patch it without making things look too ugly!
Argghh! Well I throw in the towel at this point then. This and your R3 level have defeated me. :(
I've enjoyed playing this contest, so thanks to all for letting me playtest it! For my money, Crane's levels are by far the hardest in the contest, given that I got intended solutions for everyone else's but only solved 1 out of 3 of his. It doesn't surprise me too much as I've been sampling some of his levels elsewhere, and they're among the toughest I've ever played. :lem-mindblown:
Thanks for the fun and the banter, I'll catch you all down the line! Bear me in mind in you're ever looking for playtesters for your upcoming packs or levels! :thumbsup:
I don't know whether I should be honoured or to apologise! Don't feel too frustrated though - you've helped to make our levels better, and there are a lot of levels that I've struggled to complete, and sometimes failed to complete due to not seeing an obscure trick (I never sold Diamond Mine from the previous contest in the intended way).
When the playing phase is over, I'll post replays of all the intended solutions.
No need to apologize! There are always gonna be a few levels one cannot complete with the intended solution (well maybe not for the absolute best solvers on the forum, but for most people). You just happened to have two of them in one contest XD I'll look forward to seeing your replays! See you on the Levels By Crane topic! :)
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 27, 2025, 10:22:38 AMCheers! He hasn't confirmed yet, but I think I have now found the intended solutions for Icho's levels. I was surprised to backroute them too. I just normally take a path-of-least-resistance approach, rather than thinking about what the author might have intended, which sometimes leads to backroutes I guess! The exception to that was his R1 level. Initially, I couldn't really see how to do it at all, so it was more of an any-means-necessary approach, which I pretty much knew would be a backroute b/c who uses the basher/blocker trick as a key element to a solution? XD
There's one level by Turrican whose solution absolutely requires this combo. I'm not going to spoil which level it is, you'll have to figure it out for yourself! :P I believe two Lemmings Uncharted levels by Armani require it too, though I think he told me it's not necessary?
QuoteIf you want to put it in spoilers, I'd be curious to know what others have found to be the hardest part of your R3 level, because the rest seemed relatively straightforward to me. Working out how to release those two lemmings that fall into the little well was the main headache.
I think Armani more or less said this was the hardest part as well, so apparently you're not alone there! :P It surprises me because I thought the setup here makes it easy to spot what's required here, but hey, what do I know regarding whether people find my levels easy or hard? :laugh:
QuoteAs I've said, I'd love to be a playtester on your upcoming pack, so bear me in mind when the time comes for testing!
Yup, absolutely! It's not going to be for a long time because, yea, I'm very slow when it comes to making levels. Not to mention 125 levels is a very overambitious goal I'll admit and I'm nowhere near the target even after almost a year :P
QuoteC++, now you're talking my language ;)
I still have some of my homework assignments from the course, and I believe last year I installed Visual Studios on my machine again after so long. Some currently don't compile correctly and hence throw errors, but I would have to investigate the code I wrote on my end for those. This was a really long time ago, back in 2009, meaning it's been at least 16 years since I last did any coding/C++ programming. So, pretty much means I'm relearning the programming language due to the huge lapse in time from the last time I worked with it and Visual Studios.
Thank you so much again for playing my levels as well as the banter as you mentioned :thumbsup: You'll definitely be seeing more from me in the future, but as mentioned there's Armani's LDC Compilation Pack you can play through for several of my past entries. That reminds me, I would like to submit some updates to replace some of my levels in it, since yea, I'm not necessarily proud of my earliest levels due to the poor visuals. Nowadays, I can't even look at those really early levels of mine without cringing at least once :sick:
Never say never... I must be a glutton for punishment, @Crane :)
And another stab at R3!
Both backroutes unfortunately;
although...
You're getting close with R3.
OK, let's go again!
Damn, now you're on a role. Unfortunately they're backroutes that don't line up too well with what I'm intending.
Ah man, either I'm being really obtuse (quite possible!) or you have created some levels here that it's so hard to discern what you intend the player to do that only the most battle-hardened NL vets are gonna be able to solve them XD At least I've cleared a bit of a path for folks in terms of them not wasting their time trying the same backroutes I have. I feel like I owe you an apology to keep causing you to update your levels, though I guess it's more of my time really ;-) Still, as you've learned by now, I don't give up easily :P
It says something when I'm having a break by playing Armani's levels from the Holiday 2024 pack though lol
Can you at least tell me whether I've ever been close with any of my previous attempts at The Lemming Ledger? I know you said I was close with Reverse Polarity before, but looks like I've gone backwards there.
Here we go again :P
And Reverse the Polarity... attempt 743 ;)
Spoiler
I really can't work out why I need two diggers, and that's probably why these will keep being backroutes until I do! Unless it's a red herring of course.
I admit I'm getting frustrated that I overlooked so many things, so much that even my V2 change for Lemming Ledger reopened a backroute that my playtester found before the playing phase. I've streamlined things a bit for the V8 release. As for Reverse the Polarity, the level is somewhat broken now, and the only fix I could think of was a rather ugly extra platform with a trap on it that probably opens up even more backroutes, knowing my luck!
I suppose to give a hint:
Blockers reverse the direction of lemmings regardless of what state they're in
Sorry if I'm being dense, but is your hint supposed to be for R1 or R3, since both levels contain blockers?
I'm also sorry to cause you frustration; it might be better to admit that I'm simply just not on your wavelength for these two levels - it can happen. Mostly I am (even if it takes a while to get there a la Outside the Box 2), which is why I like your levels and persist with them, but I think my repeated attempts and failures at The Oubliette also showed that occasionally I just ain't gonna get there!
Nevertheless, I'll take a look at your updated levels, if only to check I can't backroute them for your peace of mind :) Not actually asking for any hints, it would just be good to know whether I've ever been on the right track with The Lemming Ledger, or whether every single attempt has been far from what you intended!
OK, solved updated versions again.
Spoiler
RE: Your hint, still not sure which level it refers to, but it seems to me to imply an Oh Noer - that would refer to a blocker in a different state, i.e. in the process of exploding. If so, I suppose that must relate to The Lemming Ledger, but I can't see why that would be beneficial unless the explosion is also creating a path that was previously inaccessible.
My thoughts on my solutions, so you can see my working, as it were:
R1:
Spoiler
This is a solution I haven't tried before for The Lemming Ledger. From very early on, I always thought that thin piece of steel half way up the cliff face must serve a purpose and I believed that purpose was for a miner to mine backwards towards therefore closing off any way back. Until now though, I couldn't see a way to put it into practice - the lemmings were too close together and once I started bashing, a couple would always pass by before the miner tunnel was deep enough. What I've done here is extremely fiddly and precise though, which leads me to believe it's still a backroute but hopefully closer to your intended solution.
R3:
Spoiler
When you said I was close a couple of attempts ago, I took that to mean that my initial move of blocking the builder and immediately digging him out so that two lemmings go in opposite directions is correct. That would also tie into the title of Reverse the Polarity! This time I did need the additional digger because if the miner had continued on his trajectory, he would have landed on the platform and therefore, the newly added trap.
Okay, made some updates after being away for a week with a fresher mind! Lemming Ledger is coming together although I wished I didn't have to add steel there since it feels a bit patchy to me. Patching Reverse the Polarity clicked for me when I realised I could adjust the intended solution in a such a way that it no longer necessitates the Floater (I also removed a Miner that I accidentally gave to the player right from the off, especially as that breaks the guidelines for Rule 3).
I was wondering where you'd gone, Crane :)
You're gonna hate me for this, but I think I might have backrouted Lemming Ledger again, because this time I have miner to spare at the end. I keep thinking I've run out of ideas, but then something else occurs to me. You'd think by the law of probabilities, I would have stumbled onto the intended solution by now, but no :P
With Reverse the Polarity, you've done a good job of patching it so I'm not sure I can backroute it any more :thumbsup: I feel like I'm close with my previous solution, but there must be some key element of the puzzle I'm missing. Frustratingly, my previous solution is so close to working, except for the fact the second blocker pick up occurs literally a couple of frames too late, so that the blocker under the hatch is ever so slightly off where he needs to be for a faller from the hatch to dig him out and release him. It feels like you got rid of the the floater pick up because this final digger would land safely on the extended platform. But even if I could pull this off, I'd still have a miner I didn't have any use for, much like the previous level! Argghh! You're a devious one, Crane :evil:
Spoke too soon. My apologies - this one is egregious!
As things solwed down a bit, I will try and go through the entries next weekend or so. :)
Here is my first batch of solutions! :)
I saved a builder on Armani's R2 and I most likely backrouted Crane's R3.
The rest looks intended to me at first glance. :)
@Icho
All solutions to my levels are intended! Well done! :thumbsup:
@IchoTolot
Your solutions to R1 & R3 are intended :santa: :thumbsup:
R2 could use an update though..
Yo, Armani! Your update breaks my previous replay ;-) You must have missed it, but I guess that means I backrouted it after all. :P I'll take another look at it!
@ArmaniMy solution to your updated R2. :thumbsup:
Spoiler
I guess you're trying to force the player to use both exits, rather than just one?
@JawaJuice
I didn't notice that you had posted your solution for my r2, sorry! :forehead:
Spoiler
Unfortunately your solution is a backroute. You're right that I'm trying to force the player to use both exits though. It's required by the rule! ;)
Man, you've really stumped me with this update ???
Spoiler
I've noticed that you can shimmy into the portal on the left side, which seems like it should be part of the solution. Assuming my last attempt had the wrong idea of digging through the splat zone to enable the top lemming to fall safely through (because then both lemmings end up on the bottom, and after your last fix, that's game over), then it must be about using the builders to build a splatform for the top lemming. My idea was to have a lemming building to the left underneath the drop point where the button is, while the other lemming digs down to the bottom, underneath the bridge. The builder would then go back to the portal (using another shimmier to get on top of the platform to the portal then a second shimmier to enter the portal. He then lasers his way through to the button and the bridge he's built safely catches him and he walks to the right, over the hole made by the digger. Meanwhile, the lemming on the bottom uses a shimmier to cross the gap, lasers up to the left, so the top lemming walk down the lasered path and use the final shimmier to reach the last button and that exit. However, all this is scuppered by the fact that the builder dies in the splat zone when he's finished building up three bridges and I just can't see a way around this! It HAS to be 3 bridges high otherwise it won't prevent the splat. Argggh! This is definitely harder than your other two levels in this contest. I feel like I must be close to the solution here but I can't see a way to build the splatform and have the builder survive!
@JawaJuice
QuoteHowever, all this is scuppered by the fact that the builder dies in the splat zone when he's finished building up three bridges and I just can't see a way around this! It HAS to be 3 bridges high otherwise it won't prevent the splat.
Actually you provided the correct explanation of IchoTolot's backroute for the level which I initially overlooked. :forehead:
There's a hint I posted in my response to Crane which I'll repeat here:
Spoiler
First, the two workers must meet on the lower floor and build a bridge together. After that, one of them should go back upstairs to complete his own task.
+
additional hints
Spoiler
Digging through the splat zone to allow the top lemming to fall safely is actually necessary. However, the lemming who digs through the thin floor must not end up on the bottom level, which means you have to prevent him from falling by assigning a builder. But how does he survive the fall after he finishes building? That's where the bridge that the two workers build together comes into play. ;)
My resolve for Armani's R2. This time no skill left over. :)
Quote from: Armani on December 14, 2025, 06:25:05 PMActually you provided the correct explanation of IchoTolot's backroute for the level which I initially overlooked. :forehead:
:XD: :thumbsup:
QuoteSpoiler
Digging through the splat zone to allow the top lemming to fall safely is actually necessary. However, the lemming who digs through the thin floor must not end up on the bottom level, which means you have to prevent him from falling by assigning a builder. But how does he survive the fall after he finishes building? That's where the bridge that the two workers build together comes into play. ;)
In response to your second hint...
Spoiler
Ha! Making the digger build was actually the first thing I thought of! But I couldn't see a way to stop him splatting after he had :P I'll look at it again, knowing that I was on the right path now. Beast of a level compared with the other two, Armani, at least for me!
OK, got it, you madman! :XD: :thumbsup:
@IchoTolot @JawaJuice
You both found the intended solution! Well done :thumbsup:
I've now played through these levels as well and have attached my replays :thumbsup: I only needed to play Armani's and Crane's levels for each ruleset, as I pre-tested all of Icho's levels as usual, and I of course know what's intended for my levels :P These levels for the most part weren't as difficult as I thought they be, so to be honest it surprises me some people needed help and hints, Armani's levels especially :lem-mindblown: Hehe, of course only I would say that, coming from someone who has a lot of custom level solving experience :P IMO Armani's levels this time are much easier than they usually are, and I have stated plenty of times that I tend to struggle with his levels more than Icho's :P Armani's R3 is probably the hardest here, though it's psychological intimidation more than anything. Interestingly enough, the level that took me the longest to solve was Crane's R1, though here I stress that I saw the solution after a bit but it took me a while to figure out how to get the right timing and for it to work out in the end ;)
In any case, all my solutions to Armani's and Crane's levels look intended to me? ???
Feedback on R1 Levels Armani's Underroot R1V1
Wow, nice level! :thumbsup: The first thing I figured out here was which exit is the only possible one, and I quickly knew that it has to be the middle one. All right, good start. I send out an athlete to the right, bash through to the left from the top right, build across the gap, mine through the middle floating platform, and I saw that he later gets stuck in an endless loop once he goes past the left exit. I also saw that perhaps it's intended to bomb the emerald on the right to free the crowd to get them to the middle exit. Man, so close, I thought! If only he could climb up to the starting platform to do so. Wait, what if I dug at the start? First I tried as far left as possible for it. Would had worked if it weren't for that dang overhang blocking the climber. Darn! :laugh: Tried it by placing the digger a bit further back and saw that it stops at the right spot for him to be able to climb back up later. Aha! Then it was just a matter of placing the blocker right at the edge of the digger tunnel so that he can slip under the blocker field. Genius! :thumbsup:
Crane's Lemming Ledger R1V9
Ok, this one took a bit longer than expected but only because the hard part for me here was figuring out how to get the timing to be right so that only one Lemming needs the floater to survive the fall on the right side. There's also plenty of other things that look like they can work but don't because you would end up losing the climber which he is needed to bomb the rest of the way for the crowd to proceed towards the exit later on. That pixel too high for Lemmings to get up the long miner tunnel even after bombing at the end is pretty evil :evil: I'm guessing that part needed some backroute fixing? Ultimately, the concept is nice, but all that trial and error to get the timing right to get the solution to work out made the level not as enjoyable for me as it should had been. Sorry, I'm generally find levels whose solutions aren't super hard to figure out but takes so much fiddling to get everything to work not enjoyable ;) Personal preferences is all
Feedback on R2 LevelsArmani's Rusty Ruin Zone R2V3
Wow, this is a great level as well! :thumbsup: The builders here are the hardest to figure out IMO. I also at first thought the portal was just decoration for some odd reason :crylaugh: That perfect timing for the Lemmings to reach the middle at about the right time is genius, with making bridges meet to stop the splatting from the splat field. Same thing with digging and then cancel him with a builder so he doesn't fall through to the bottom like the one who gets the button at the top will. Finally, parking the Lemming who builds to the right after digging so he can be lasered free by the Lemming on the bottom right and then shimmy to reach the top exit is also clever. Nice work, and in one of Dexter's tilesets! :thumbsup:
Crane's Redneck Redemption R2V4
Another easy one to figure out, but ack, that talisman which, similar to your R1, took so much fiddling around before I got it to work. After a while, I figured out what such a solution would look like but thought if it's what I think it is, it's going to be a pain to execute. I suppose because this is an optional talisman requirement that doesn't follow the 1 Lemming to each exit rule it's fine, but next time I would have such follow the rule. You could of course always add it after the contest is over :P
Feedback on R3 LevelsArmani's Benzene R3V1
Not as difficult as it looks despite the overwhelming large level size with pickups scattered all around, with of course some obvious ones that you won't be able to collect. I nearly had the solution but as it was really late at night and I couldn't really think from being tired after puzzling my way through with the first two rulesets, I decided to leave it for after getting a good night's rest. Turns out I fell for the trap of building over the exit, which would cause one to be a builder short. Also one part near the exit requires two builders to clear instead of the usual one like most other platforms. Nice level. And look at that, I think it's coincidence that both your R3 and Icho's R3 require building to the L3 Biolab pillar to seal off the basher tunnel :laugh:
Crane's Reverse Polarity R3V8
Another one that I needed to leave for the night after trying for a bit and having no success on Armani's R3 after also exhausting my brainpower from the first two rulesets. At one point I also came really close to the solution but the Lemming who used the bottom left arrived too late to catch one of the Lemmings by building and hence I kept being a Lemming short of the requirement. Turns out it simply needed a small RR tweak at the start, enough so that the last Lemming out of the trapdoor could dig the blocker free but not so early so that everyone can slip out of the tunnel. My solution still cuts it very close to losing that one Lemming, so maybe there are easier ways to execute the solution ??? At the same time, seems to be that build a bit back but far enough forward so that one builder brick is enough to catch the Lemming on time instead of start building at the very edge of the platform. I'm also curious how Icho backrouted this level of yours.
Will get videos up covering these contest entries in the coming days :)
I admit I got disheartened, which was why I hadn't updated my levels in a while. But they have been updated now.
P.S. IchoTolot's, JawaJuice's and kaywhyn's solutions to R1 and R3 are all backroutes, and the R2 solution is intended. The talisman does break the spirit of the rule a bit, I admit, but that trick is very difficult to patch, but is also very fiddly, hence why it's a talisman.
Got resolves for Crane's R1 and R3. Both seem to be backroutes unfortunately :( R1 for sure since I require all skills be used and I spared one, while R3 does seem less backroutey despite sparing a skill, but the intention seems to be all skills need to be used :P
Quote from: Crane on December 16, 2025, 09:22:31 AMThe talisman does break the spirit of the rule a bit, I admit, but that trick is very difficult to patch, but is also very fiddly, hence why it's a talisman.
Well, I prefer talismans stick to the spirit of the rulesets as well if they're used during the contest. If it was added after this one was over, then sure, it's less of a problem, since you can modify the levels themselves to no longer conform to the rulesets they were submitted for. That's what I plan to do for my "Always Remember" level for its inclusion into Lemmings Memories, though the biggest change I'll be making is replacing all the L2 Pillar pieces with their L1 equivalents, since L2 Pillar isn't one of the planned tilesets for the pack.
I also have solutions for the updated levels. If I were to comment on them, it would actually be close to @kaywhyn's observations above, so I wonder if we've hit on similar solutions (not gonna check at this point, as I don't want spoilers!). My R3 solution definitely looks a lot closer to intended than many of my previous attempts to me.
Sorry to hear you were feeling disheartened, Crane. If they're getting backrouted so much, I guess it just means you've created really challenging levels! If it's any consolation, it's equally frustrating as a player to think you might have cracked it this time, only to be told it's another backroute! :P
@kaywhyn
Your solutions for R1 and R2 match my intended solutions perfectly. R3 is also acceptable. :thumbsup:
R1 – I love your logical deduction on this level. This is exactly how I imagine an expert player would approach the solution gradually eliminating possibilities one by one. 8-)
R2 – Also intended! This level is all about properly setting up the splatform so the lemming can survive the fall after performing digger+builder.
R3 – You collected all the correct pick-ups and took the intended route. You used the miner in a slightly different way but that's a minor difference and completely acceptable. ;)
I think my R3 level is a little bit broken, but kaywhyn's solution isn't too far off, so I'll let it pass for now! For the R1 level, it seems I made that steel plate too thick!
I've also removed the talisman for the R2 level for now so as to not encourage people, even if it was titled "Now that's cheating!"
Another resolve for Crane's R1 and sadly another backroute which unfortunately also seems to be going backwards and further from intended again because this time I managed to save even more skills :( I do agree with @JawaJuice when he mentions that it can be just as frustrating for players thinking their solution is/must be intended only to be told later on that it isn't :P So yea, still have no clue on what you intend here for R1 ;)
That was quick! :D I'm still working on the latest R1, haven't managed to solve it (or backroute it) yet! I assume my R3 solution was also acceptable - it's pretty similar to @kaywhyn's; a subtle difference in execution that allows the saving of a different skill, but the basic idea is the same.
OK, got another solution for updated R1. It uses all the skills this time, but looks a bit fiddly and hacky, so probably another backroute ;)
EDIT: That was an obvious overcomplication. Did it again, but this time saves more than one skill, so definitely a backroute. Like @kaywhyn, really struggling to see what is intended here. :(
Do you want me to stop updating then? I'm sorry for all of the frustration.
EDIT: I give up. R1 and R3 are broken. Two levels broken.
I hereby formally request that Lemming Ledger and Reverse the Polarity be removed from the contest and all copies be permanently deleted. The levels are completely broken and do not meet the high quality that is expected, and thus they are unsuitable for any kind of level pack or competition entry. Furthermore, considering the frustration being born out of the playtesting, I do not wish to continually contribute to those negative emotions.
That I would leave up to you. I'm not actually frustrated with needing to keep resolving your levels...yet anyway. I was simply in agreement with the sentiment that it can get frustrating where players think their solution is/must be intended, only to be told later on that it's not. Nothing is more satisfying to me than being told that I finally got the intended solution to a level after some updates ;) It can get exhausting with needing to repeatedly resolve updated levels, yes, but as I have been told by some, including you, in the past, eventually there comes a point where further fixes might not be worth it anymore because they might result in the level not looking as good anymore, more fixes might do further harm than good, etc. I think I've gotten somewhat better with letting some acceptable alternatives/variants slide in my more recent stuff, but in my really early stuff I was kind of the same way with not accepting even solutions that differ in one detail. So, I can relate with needing to release so many updates, though I think this is more that I'm just not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I was! :P
R1 is broken because it uses elements of the intended solution that can not be patched. R3 is broken because the blockers can be used in alternative ways with good timing. Therefore both levels are broken and I want to smash my computers to pieces, but it is more rational and logical to remove myself from the equation for the greater good and to preserve the rationality of others. If my work upsets others, then it must be destroyed.
I stand by my cold and potentially irrational choice. R1 and R3 are not suitable levels any more, because the fact they are fundamentally broken. R1 can possibly be saved by locking the release rate, but I hate doing that and it's against the rules anyway, and I do not want these levels to continue poisoning the collection of good levels out there. R2 can stay, but it is much, much worse than the other levels in the set.
For my part, I'd just say that if I gave the impression I was upset by these levels, then it was unintentional and I apologize. If any level frustrated me to the point of experiencing negative emotion, I would just step away from it.
I stepped away from them for over a week, and it's not gotten any better for anyone because they are fundamentally broken. I wish for them to be removed at the earliest possible convenience. From a game designer's perspective, they do not meet the standards required.
All rightie, I've went ahead and withdrawn Crane's R1 and R3 per his request.
Thank you. I would prefer they be removed from existence, including any mention of them, but that works.
All rightie, I've went ahead and recorded my video solutions to the contest levels :thumbsup:
Part 1 (Rule 1) - https://youtu.be/n90Zy6_PLbY (https://youtu.be/n90Zy6_PLbY)
Part 2 (Rule 2) - https://youtu.be/T1ZJaNEcydU (https://youtu.be/T1ZJaNEcydU)
Part 3 (Rule 3) - https://youtu.be/CXQLGWg0TvE (https://youtu.be/CXQLGWg0TvE)
Part 4 (my levels) - https://youtu.be/sDO5Q_yWcMY (https://youtu.be/sDO5Q_yWcMY)
I've re-attached my replay collection and have also attached the intended solutions to my levels :)
Following JawaJuice's advice, I tried some levels in the contest. Having already suffered from loss of hair on many levels by IchoTolot and Armani, I decided to play kaywhyn's level first.
I was pleased with them, great job kaywhyn ! But hey, what else should we expect from the guy with maybe the largest number of packs cleared here ? I think now everybody has more and more expectation for you upcoming pack, you better not disappoint 8-)
Spoiler
Rule 1 got me stuck for a long time because I did not know it was actually possible for a ohnoer to exit, nice move ! Though I finally found it because when you have used all other skills to make the 3 others exit, you are only left with these 2 possibilities miner+bomber or basher+bomber.
Rule 2 went pretty smooth, the miner extension is easy to spot. Is the title Help Me, Help Dune a reference to the Dune movie or book ? I read those when young but cannot remember very well.
Rule 3 I did another miner extesion. When you realize that you have only one miner, and that this miner is mandatory to free both the bottom and the middle pairs of guys, then the road is set.
@GuiguiAh, returning the favor, huh? :santa: Thanks for playing my levels and the nice compliments! :thumbsup: All of your solutions are intended. Great job! :thumbsup:
For R1, there's two intended ways since
Spoiler
the basher and miner are interchangeable in the solution. Indeed, I myself didn't know about ohnoers being able to exit in NL as well. I first learned this in one of Icho's Lemmings United level, though having grown up with the Dos version of Lemmings myself, it's almost the same there, just that there I've observed that if the bomber or nuke countdown expires while a Lemming is jumping into the exit, the Lemming just jumps in again while you also hear the "ohno" sound. This doesn't happen in NL, since the timer is removed completely when a Lemming reaches and jumps into the exit. I haven't tested it myself yet, but I do believe that ohnoers will jump into the exit on Dos, same as NL. They're pretty much 1-to-1 on plenty of things/mechanics.
For R2, the level title "Help Me, Help Dune" is just a play on the phrase "help me, help you" ;) Also kind of serves as a hint to the level solution where the 2 Lemmings must help one another in order for them both to make it to an exit ;) "Dune" and "you" sort of rhyme too, and the reason for dune in the title is it references the graphic set I used to make the level, which is Icho's Dune set, which in turn is based on the Dune 2000 game. I don't know anything about the game myself, though ;)
For R3, alternatively,
Spoiler
you can have the climber dig the right bar instead of the one on the left when releasing the far left entrance. That works as well. I did think about blocking off digging the left bar, but I decided to leave it in as a nice alternative :) Yes, it does cut it very close to being splat height, but it should always be safe when mining to release the entrance trapped in by the thin steel.
Thanks for taking interest in my upcoming level pack in the far future :thumbsup: Don't worry if it ends up stumping you in plenty of places. Despite how I haven't made many levels for it yet, from the very little feedback I have gotten it's apparently already shaping up to be a really difficult pack :P Again, as I've stated in the OP of the in-development pack topic, I don't expect Lemmings Memories to be the next NepsterLems or Lemmings Reunion in terms of difficulty, though maybe it's already up there in the difficulty with them? :santa: We shall see, won't we? :)
Both my R1 and R3 will be in my Lemmings Memories pack, though for the latter I've modified the level so that it's a no pick-ups version. I only plan to use them as a last resort for backroute fixing but other than that I'm trying to stick as much as possible to just "classic" features for the pack, including classic 8 skills only. I'm leaving R1 as a 5th and final rank level for now. Even though the solution for the most part is obvious, it can still prove to be a very nasty level for those who aren't aware of the tricks needed. On the other hand, the no-pickups level is harder for me to place. It's definitely a 3rd rank minimum, 4th rank max. I think I currently have it in the 3rd rank. I can always move it around later on if needed.
Again thank you for playing my levels and well done for finding the intended solutions to them! :thumbsup:
You're welcome kaywhyn.
I also cleared Crane's Redneck Redemption, no idea for the talisman though.
I tried the 2 other ones some days ago but let them be in peace now reading Crane's last comment on them.
@Guigui Just to say, you can still play Crane's Lemming Ledger over on the Levels By Crane (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7270.0) topic. I believe he's currently working on a new version though, following my latest backroute :) Unfortunately, I have backrouted this level to hell and back, it would seem :P Maybe you'll have more luck getting the intended solution :thumbsup:
That's kind of you JawaJuice. I might still try to fix Lemming Ledger as a standalone level, but I admit I've lost faith in it, and Reverse the Polarity I'm kind of leaving to die.
I could solve Icho's No Way In Hell for rule 1, took me a looong time to see the basher extension !
Now I've been losing my hair for quite a while on his Social Distancing for rule 2. Tried different things with all those Lem control skills, but did not get an inch closer to the solution I fear. I dont feel like watching a replay coz that would spoil the fun.
The only way I can see to any exit is to have one lemming go the middle level where the exits are then build a bridge over the gap. Once that is done I guess exits can be reached via either the upper level by simply falling, or by the downer level by shimmier hanging under the bridge, which would look very nice !
Though I have no idea how to send a lem to the middle level in the first place.
Can you give advice : am I on the correct track here by wanting to send a lem to the middle level, or is the solution completely different ?
@Guigui
Yes, you're definitely on the right track. In fact it seems like you already know how to send a lemming to the middle level - the clue is in your own words:
in your words literally
by shimmier hanging under the bridge ;P
I have uploaded my solutions to YouTube and also attached my replays here. :)
First part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkhWe2ruZ1o
Second part (my own levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6FQSqQmpf8
After your hints, I've been able to clear all of IchoTolot's level. Replays joined.
About rule 3, I must say I tend to not like pickups much generally. They either give too much hint on what to do depending on the pickups you get, or they give too much distraction when you put unnecessary pickups here and there.
And IchoTolot's Lem In The Box belongs to the latter category ! Why would anyone enclose 3 pickups in 3 boxes, including a precious digger, only to make the level solvable w/o them ??
Well, while writing the question, I got my own answer : to make the level harder, and also smarter : "look I can put a precious thing there, but if you try to go and fetch it you'll lose". Isn't that the whole Aladdin's lamp cave story ? Good job Icho !
Then I tried Rule 1 Underroot by Armani. Brilliant design again, I love how in Armani's levels you get to see a lot of things just by letting the lemmings go their own way for a time. Here I have an almost solution : just missing one Lemming. I had to resort to a "build your own smooth wall for a climber" thing, and a blocker bypass, but it is not enough yet to clear.
I'm joining my replay, can anyone tell if I'm on the correct track ?
@Guigui
I think it would be right to leave it to Armani to give you any hints, but just to reassure you you're very much on the correct track with Underroot! :thumbsup:
@GuiguiCongrats on getting all of Icho's levels solved! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Guigui on January 09, 2026, 09:33:30 PMAbout rule 3, I must say I tend to not like pickups much generally. They either give too much hint on what to do depending on the pickups you get, or they give too much distraction when you put unnecessary pickups here and there.
And IchoTolot's Lem In The Box belongs to the latter category ! Why would anyone enclose 3 pickups in 3 boxes, including a precious digger, only to make the level solvable w/o them ??
Well, while writing the question, I got my own answer : to make the level harder, and also smarter : "look I can put a precious thing there, but if you try to go and fetch it you'll lose".
Decoy pick-ups in levels to increase the difficulty and to act as distractions are quite fair game, just like using decorative terrain to distract players or make them think it must be part of the solution when it isn't :P Similarly with providing extra skills to act as red herrings, though this is harder to do since one must take care to make sure they also can't be used to backroute the level. The most common one you probably have seen is providing bombers on save all levels, though there are such levels out there that still require them to be used. Hence, in pickup levels, it very much becomes a puzzle and you'll need to ask yourself, what pickups do I need to solve the level, are these pickups necessary to solve the level, etc.
QuoteThen I tried Rule 1 Underroot by Armani. Brilliant design again, I love how in Armani's levels you get to see a lot of things just by letting the lemmings go their own way for a time. Here I have an almost solution : just missing one Lemming. I had to resort to a "build your own smooth wall for a climber" thing, and a blocker bypass, but it is not enough yet to clear.
I'm joining my replay, can anyone tell if I'm on the correct track ?
Yup, you're nearly there! :thumbsup: You just need to change one thing and then you'll have it. As a matter of fact, I think you can already see the solution, especially when you consider what absolutely must be your losses in the level ;)
The solutions to my levels are all intended! :thumbsup:
Most of the extra pick ups on my R3 serve the purpose that you are able to solve the level for both exits, but yeah a few of those are just not viable to get.