edit by kaywhyn: Removed the V3 attachments in order to tidy that section up so that only the latest version is available for download and hence eliminates confusion :)
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After a few months of intermittent work, my first ever fully original level pack is complete.
It's very small, consisting of only 12 levels (with only 8 unique layouts) split across 2 ranks. It also features a barebones "special" level (with an accompanying special style containing the necessary objects), music from various Lemmings versions, and an additional music track composed by me for the final level.
It should be a relatively quick and easy completion for most players, but hopefully it's enjoyable nonetheless. :)
longroadv3.png
Sweet 3 "Long road to nowhere" / Sour 2ballpit.png
Sweet 5 / Sour 4 "The Ball Pit"Below are multiple downloads of the level pack.
ALL of them contain the levels themselves and the special style, so if you want the music, you only need to download ONE of these ZIP files. Regardless of which one you choose, it must be unzipped into the main NeoLemmix folder.
This download contains no custom music.
SweetNSourV4_CoreOnly.zip (123 KiB)
This download contains the two music tracks that are NOT alternate versions of default music.
SweetNSourV4_SpecialMusicOnly.zip (9.45 MiB)
This download contains all the music tracks.
SweetNSourV4_FullMusic.zip (21.4 MiB)
Have fun! :)
Changelog
03 DEC 2025: Version 4 release. Reverted Sweet 1; updated Sour 1, Sour 2/Sweet 3, and Sour 4.
26 NOV 2025: Version 3 release. Updated Sweet 1 and Sour 1.
09 NOV 2025: Version 2 release. Updated Sour 2/Sweet 3, Sour 4/Sweet 5, Sour 5/Sweet 2, and Sour 6.
30 OCT 2025: Initial release.
Looking forward to giving these a try. :thumbsup: I've been a fan of your work for ages, hehe
Currently stuck at Sweet 5 Just Relax.
Lack of constructive skill gets me : 4 gaps, some quite large and high and only 2 builders and 6 stoners. Also, how can this basher help me get higher ? Need to think more I guess...
Started to play his pack yesterday. The Sweet rank gets quite challenging at some point! I'm stuck at the "Puzzle" level (I don't remember the full title). Either I don't understand how these teleport looking objects work, or they don't work properly? Probably the former. I'm quite dumb when it comes to stuff that are not in the original Lemmings.
That being said, I enjoyed the levels I managed to solve :thumbsup:
I could clear the whole pack now, except Sweet 5 Just Relax... Still stuck there because of the 5 gaps (sorry I wrote 4 gaps in my last message) and only 2 builders + 6 stoners to create terrain. Maybe I dont know how to use stoners properly ? Any hint would be appreciated.
The other levels were very pleasing to the eyes and the brain. I especially loved Sour 3 Chasms Capers (is there really an -s at "capers", I used only one caper ;P )
I may have found some backroutes here and there because I end up with extra skills, mainly in Sour 5 and Sour 6.
Do you mind if I post my replays here ? Always fear it can break the fun for other players.
Didn't expect Sweet 5 to be so tricky, whoops :forehead:
Here's a hint for you Guigui :)
Sweet 5 Hint
You can't get over the tall column right before the goal with the skills available, so you'll have to go through it ;) If you're still stumped let me know :)
Really happy to hear you enjoyed the other levels! You are very welcome to post your replays here :) I already found a backroute in Sour 5
right after posting the pack (because of course I did) and will likely leave it as is, so I'm hoping you found the same backroute :crylaugh:
Firstly, thank you for making this pack, The Tomato Watcher - thoroughly enjoyed playing through it! It's on the easier side, but still a nice challenge, especially on certain levels. My replays for sweet and sour ranks attached. I don't think I found any backroutes here, but I'm not the best at knowing when I've found one and when it was the author's intended solution!
Secondly, by way of introduction, I've been lurking on this forum for six years or so and thought it was time I stepped out of the shadows. I'm a long time fan of OG Lemmings, having bought it when it came out in '91 on the Atari ST (probably giving my age away a bit there!). Discovering Neolemmix and this forum was a godsend and I just want to thank all of the authors of packs on here, who've brought me many hours of entertainment (and frustration!). Keep up the good work!
Quote from: The Tomato Watcher on November 02, 2025, 01:26:28 AMDidn't expect Sweet 5 to be so tricky, whoops :forehead:
Here's a hint for you Guigui :)
Sweet 5 Hint
You can't get over the tall column right before the goal with the skills available, so you'll have to go through it ;) If you're still stumped let me know :)
Yes Sweet 5 cleared now, not sure why it scared me that much after all. Thanks for the tip !
I'm joining my replays and some comments on the levels and solution :
Spoiler
Sweet 1 Nice introduction level, open ended. I made it with a single pioneer.
Sweet 2 Lost an awful lot of Lemmings in the pit here, but it is allowed so why not ?
Sweet 3 I save one basher here, with a straightforward solution : see an obstacle, overcome it with a skill.
Sweet 4 Scary level at first sight ! Blocking the crowd and sending a pioneer do the job works well. I get just enough builders but save many destructive skills.
Sweet 5 No comment now, I misjudged the power of stoners !
Sweet 6 Timing the upmost basher is everything here. Probably the intended solution as I have no skill left at the end.
This level reminds me of the newer Lemmings game on Android/iOS : all levels have this vertical setting and screen ratio to fit a phone screen. Is that a coincidence ?
Sour 1 Sweet 1 remixed w/ different skills. I had to struggle a bit to get the half turning lem in time to free the crowd. Good level !
Sour 2 Compression ! I fidgeted a lot to get a first batch of 3 compressed lems to prepare terrain, then compressed the others very tight. Not sure this is intended solution ?
Sour 3 Really love this one Chasm Capers. Spent way too much time building on both sides simultaneously, until I saw a peculiar skill you gave that actually helps with pits...
Sour 4 Sweet 5 remixed. I was scared at first since I could not clear the original level. But then I saw the 4 builders and how to overcome the last pillar so it was a quick solve. Maybe not intended again since I save miner and bomber ?
Sour 5 Pretty sure I backrouted here since I save more lemmings than required, and save skills. The jumper at the beginning survives the fall by one pixel thanks to the miner applied first. I am not really sure how jumpers splat height is calculated...
Sour 6 Probably another backroute. Watch me try to use the shimmier to finally let it fall to its doom ! The crowd is save at the last second of course, I had to adjust some bashers tightly to achieve this.
Nice to hear from you, JawaJuice :) Really glad you enjoyed the pack. You sure had some fancy solutions :P A lot of your solutions weren't exactly intended, but they usually involved some precise timing that I'm not expecting most players to shoot for. If that expectation turns out to be foolish, then I'll actually try to fix it. Your only true backroutes were Sour 5 and Sour 6. I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do with Sour 5, but I have ideas for Sour 6.
Guigui, I really appreciate your feedback on individual levels, so thank you so much for that.
My responses
Sweet 2: Yeah, this level is definitely the most gimmick-y level of the pack, essentially just making sure the player internalizes the fact that they can lose half their lemmings, since you almost never are forced to lose so many.
Sweet 3: Saving the Basher is perfectly acceptable; in fact it better prepares you for the intended solution to this level's repeat. ;)
Sweet 4: Indeed, the Builders are the only real skill crunch here, nicely done!
Sweet 6: The solution is intended, and the resemblance to the mobile Lemmings game is indeed intentional, nicely spotted! I play the game occasionally and thought this level would be a fun nod to it.
Sour 2: Not quite intended, the finicky timing is not at all necessary :( The easiest thing to do is compress the crowd after building across the first two gaps (taking advantage of being able to lose 10 lemmings) then find a way to separate one lemming from the bunch after getting past the traps. Not sure how or if I'm gonna enforce that though.
Sour 3: Glad you really liked this one! I think it's the level I'm most proud of. I think I did a good job recreating the feel of an actual ONML level with this one... aside from it having a slow RR and being taller than 160 px, both of which are required to make the level work at all. :P
Sour 4: Oops! I made the save requirement too lenient. You still got the core of the solution though. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.
Sour 5: I think I'm just gonna have to leave this level open-ended.
Sour 6: Indeed another backroute; I think my idea for JawaJuice's backroute will stop yours as well.
Hey, Tomato Watcher! Apologies for the late response - I haven't quite got the hang of this forum yet :P I assumed when you had posted in a thread you would automatically be subscribed to it and therefore receive notifications. Since I hadn't got any notifications (email), I assumed no-one had replied to the thread so hadn't bothered to check the forum for a while! Guess you have to explicitly subscribe to a thread?
Anyway, congrats again on your pack, it really was a lot of fun and I'm glad you enjoyed watching my replays. I should have provided you with feedback for specific levels like Guigui did - I'll try and remember to do that in future as I'm sure it's helpful to a level designer! I will say that I clocked early on that a relatively lenient save rate was going to be a theme of your pack so I took it on myself to try and save as many lemmings as possible on each level as an extra challenge, hence some of the unnecessarily fiddly, un-intuitive or timing-precise solutions. I don't think there's anything to fix on your part - it's just how I decided to approach it. I'm used to playing packs that do require such precision to complete, so I guess it's a hard habit to break :P As a gauge, I'm a fairly experienced solver, though not on the level of a few players on this board who make LP vids! I typically struggle with Very Hard or Extreme difficulty, so packs like yours are most welcome in my book!
Spoiler
Out of interest, what were your intended solutions for Sour 5 and 6?
@Tomato WatcherCongrats on the release! :thumbsup: I'll take a look at this in the coming days/weeks. The level previews look great! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Guigui on November 01, 2025, 01:06:07 AMCurrently stuck at Sweet 5 Just Relax.
Lack of constructive skill gets me : 4 gaps, some quite large and high and only 2 builders and 6 stoners. Also, how can this basher help me get higher ? Need to think more I guess...
Quote from: Pieuw on November 01, 2025, 07:15:34 AMStarted to play his pack yesterday. The Sweet rank gets quite challenging at some point! I'm stuck at the "Puzzle" level (I don't remember the full title). Either I don't understand how these teleport looking objects work, or they don't work properly? Probably the former. I'm quite dumb when it comes to stuff that are not in the original Lemmings.
That being said, I enjoyed the levels I managed to solve :thumbsup:
This surprises me, as I took a look at these two levels after you gentlemen posted and I didn't think either of them are that hard :P However,
@Guigui congrats for solving Sweet 5 after getting the hint :thumbsup:
@PieuwThose are portals on Sweet 6. They work the exact same way as teleporters except they aren't RR sensitive and are bi-directional, meaning Lemmings can go in and come back out the same way they came from.
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 02, 2025, 11:30:56 AMFirstly, thank you for making this pack, The Tomato Watcher - thoroughly enjoyed playing through it! It's on the easier side, but still a nice challenge, especially on certain levels. My replays for sweet and sour ranks attached. I don't think I found any backroutes here, but I'm not the best at knowing when I've found one and when it was the author's intended solution!
Secondly, by way of introduction, I've been lurking on this forum for six years or so and thought it was time I stepped out of the shadows. I'm a long time fan of OG Lemmings, having bought it when it came out in '91 on the Atari ST (probably giving my age away a bit there!). Discovering Neolemmix and this forum was a godsend and I just want to thank all of the authors of packs on here, who've brought me many hours of entertainment (and frustration!). Keep up the good work!
@JawaJuiceHi JawaJuice, welcome to the Forums! :thumbsup: Nice username. Is it a reference to Jamba Juice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamba_Juice) by any chance? It reminds me of that because of how your username is similar sounding to it when said out loud :laugh:
Ah, another one who has been lurking for quite some time before finally posting to the site. I too was one for a few years even after I registered to be a member back in 2017 before finally posting publicly to the Forums in 2020. So, I've now been active in this community for 5 years but has been a member for 8 years. Before that, I read posts in the background silently :P
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 06, 2025, 04:50:49 PMHey, Tomato Watcher! Apologies for the late response - I haven't quite got the hang of this forum yet :P I assumed when you had posted in a thread you would automatically be subscribed to it and therefore receive notifications. Since I hadn't got any notifications (email), I assumed no-one had replied to the thread so hadn't bothered to check the forum for a while! Guess you have to explicitly subscribe to a thread?
Correct, you'll have to click on "notify" found at either the top or bottom of the board or topic you're viewing in order to get notifications of posts/replies to topics you wish to watch. At the same time, I think you might have to go to your profile settings => Notifications and check at least one box for the two settings "When a topic I follow receives a reply, I normally want to know via..." and "When a new topic is created in a board I follow, I normally want to know via..." That should allow you to get notifications once you click on "notify" and one of alerts or email or both are checked in your notifications settings in your profile ;)
QuoteAnyway, congrats again on your pack, it really was a lot of fun and I'm glad you enjoyed watching my replays. I should have provided you with feedback for specific levels like Guigui did - I'll try and remember to do that in future as I'm sure it's helpful to a level designer! I will say that I clocked early on that a relatively lenient save rate was going to be a theme of your pack so I took it on myself to try and save as many lemmings as possible on each level as an extra challenge, hence some of the unnecessarily fiddly, un-intuitive or timing-precise solutions. I don't think there's anything to fix on your part - it's just how I decided to approach it. I'm used to playing packs that do require such precision to complete, so I guess it's a hard habit to break :P As a gauge, I'm a fairly experienced solver, though not on the level of a few players on this board who make LP vids! I typically struggle with Very Hard or Extreme difficulty, so packs like yours are most welcome in my book!
I'm the same way with wanting to either save all, or if that's not possible, then save as much as possible. Thus, this often gets me into trouble with levels where you're allowed (or even required) to lose one or more Lemmings. Has happened to me quite often! :-[
It's perfectly normal to struggle with the Very Hard or higher difficulty levels. Everyone at some point will struggle with these levels, some more than others. For example, it took me an entire year to solve all of Lemmings United. Similarly, believe it or not it took me almost 3 years to solve all of NepsterLems, all courtesy of Black Hole 1 which I was really stuck on but finally managed to figure it out after quite some time.
Along with the above, you're in for one heck of a ride when and if I ever get around to finishing my level pack Lemmings Memories and releasing it. I haven't made that many levels for it yet, but from all the feedback I've received so far, it's shaping up to be a really difficult pack, even if I don't expect it to be the next Lemmings Reunion or NepsterLems in terms of difficulty :P
Anyway, enjoy your stay and the many level packs that are currently available to download and play. We're glad to have you with us! :thumbsup:
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 07, 2025, 12:17:52 AMThose are portals on Sweet 6. They work the exact same way as teleporters except they aren't RR sensitive and are bi-directional, meaning Lemmings can go in and come back out the same way they came from.
Yep, that's what I thought and there's definitely an issue on my side as these objects don't seem to work properly. I will figure it out!
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 07, 2025, 12:17:52 AMHi JawaJuice, welcome to the Forums! :thumbsup: Nice username. Is it a reference to Jamba Juice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamba_Juice) by any chance? It reminds me of that because of how your username is similar sounding to it when said out loud :laugh:
Very nice to meet you, kaywhyn! You're something of a legend around these parts 8-) I've read your detailed feedback on many a pack after solving them myself. The handle is, more mundanely, a reference to Star Wars; specifically Attack of the Clones. The drink is offered to Obi-Wan in Dex's Diner on Coruscant. I know it's got nothing to do with Lemmings, but it's a name I use elsewhere so just thought I'd stick with it here :P
QuoteCorrect, you'll have to click on "notify" found at either the top or bottom of the board or topic you're viewing in order to get notifications of posts/replies to topics you wish to watch. At the same time, I think you might have to go to your profile settings => Notifications and check at least one box for the two settings "When a topic I follow receives a reply, I normally want to know via..." and "When a new topic is created in a board I follow, I normally want to know via..." That should allow you to get notifications once you click on "notify" and one of alerts or email or both are checked in your notifications settings in your profile ;)
Thanks for the tips - I had already adjusted my profile notification settings correctly I think, just needed that extra step of subscribing to the actual thread. I seem to be getting notifications now :)
QuoteI'm the same way with wanting to either save all, or if that's not possible, then save as much as possible. Thus, this often gets me into trouble with levels where you're allowed (or even required) to lose one or more Lemmings. Has happened to me quite often! :-[
For sure. Not paying attention to the save requirement has caused me to struggle with levels in the past though - thinking I have to save every one when in fact, that redundancy is what enables one to complete it.
QuoteIt's perfectly normal to struggle with the Very Hard or higher difficulty levels. Everyone at some point will struggle with these levels, some more than others. For example, it took me an entire year to solve all of Lemmings United. Similarly, believe it or not it took me almost 3 years to solve all of NepsterLems, all courtesy of Black Hole 1 which I was really stuck on but finally managed to figure it out after quite some time.
Yeah, I'd say I've probably completed about 80% of all Neolemmix packs, but NepsterLems and Lemmings United are two where I gave up. Hopefully I'll return to them at some point if my solving skills are ever good enough! I did complete Lemmings Reunion, which is certainly easier than United but still quite challenging - a great pack actually; I really like IchoTolot's approach to level design. It can be hard to see the solution, but they're normally very logical, and fair, when you do. That's clever design. The kind of difficulty I don't care for is where a level is overly fiddly and relies on pixel perfect execution / timing or knowing some arcane trick to finish it.
QuoteAlong with the above, you're in for one heck of a ride when and if I ever get around to finishing my level pack Lemmings Memories and releasing it. I haven't made that many levels for it yet, but from all the feedback I've received so far, it's shaping up to be a really difficult pack, even if I don't expect it to be the next Lemmings Reunion or NepsterLems in terms of difficulty :P
Anyway, enjoy your stay and the many level packs that are currently available to download and play. We're glad to have you with us! :thumbsup:
I'm looking forward to giving it a shot although it sounds like it might be too difficult for me :P I did complete your AWESOMRE Fire Level from the random levels thread, but it wasn't easy and I'm sure your new pack will be more challenging than that. Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome - happy to be a part of this great community!
Quote from: JawaJuice on November 07, 2025, 12:04:53 PMVery nice to meet you, kaywhyn! You're something of a legend around these parts 8-) I've read your detailed feedback on many a pack after solving them myself. The handle is, more mundanely, a reference to Star Wars; specifically Attack of the Clones. The drink is offered to Obi-Wan in Dex's Diner on Coruscant. I know it's got nothing to do with Lemmings, but it's a name I use elsewhere so just thought I'd stick with it here :P
Likewise with it being a pleasure to meet you JawaJuice! :) Aww shucks :-[ I don't know about me being a legend around here on the site, but I appreciate the compliment nevertheless! :laugh: :thumbsup:
Thanks for the explanation on your username. Oh man, believe it or not I haven't seen any film Star Wars since middle school! So, about 25 years now :lem-mindblown: I think I only fully seen just one film, and probably portions of one or two other films in the series. Needless to say, I'm not that well-read or well-versed in anything Star Wars related :-[ Perhaps it's time for me to revisit the series again after so long and also buckle down and watch the films I haven't yet! I don't really remember much from any of the films.
QuoteYeah, I'd say I've probably completed about 80% of all Neolemmix packs, but NepsterLems and Lemmings United are two where I gave up. Hopefully I'll return to them at some point if my solving skills are ever good enough! I did complete Lemmings Reunion, which is certainly easier than United but still quite challenging - a great pack actually; I really like IchoTolot's approach to level design. It can be hard to see the solution, but they're normally very logical, and fair, when you do. That's clever design. The kind of difficulty I don't care for is where a level is overly fiddly and relies on pixel perfect execution / timing or knowing some arcane trick to finish it.
I'm the same with finding levels where the solution is obvious but it takes so much trial and error to get the setup correct not enjoyable. At least IMO. Instead, I'm a big fan of hard levels where the solution is difficult to figure out but the execution of the solution isn't.
QuoteI'm looking forward to giving it a shot although it sounds like it might be too difficult for me :P I did complete your AWESOMRE Fire Level from the random levels thread, but it wasn't easy and I'm sure your new pack will be more challenging than that. Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome - happy to be a part of this great community!
If you still have your replay for my AWESOME Fire Level, please send it to me. I would like to take a look at your solution! :thumbsup: You can post it in the Random Level Sharing Topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3743.0) itself :) From what it sounds like, you probably got either the intended or an acceptable solution to it. On the other hand, that does remind me that I still need to fix a backroute by a member who privately playtested it for me from several months ago. Your solution sounds like it isn't the same one they found, but I'll have to check your replay to be sure.
You can also consider being a pre-tester for my pack once I open up the pre-testing phase in the far future. It really sounds like you're someone pack authors would greatly appreciate doing testing and getting feedback from :thumbsup: For my pack, you don't have to worry about this for a long time, as I'm quite slow when it comes to level making and I haven't made much progress on it in a long time, though I'm happy to say that I've finally gotten around to resuming work on it again :laugh:
Finally got around to backroute fixes and other little tweaks. :)
Affected levels:
Sour 2 / Sweet 3 (a single steel plate :P)
Sour 4 / Sweet 5 (RR increase)
Sour 5 / Sweet 2 (major design change, Sour 5 solution change)
Sour 6 (design tweaks, solution overhaul)
Here are my updated replays. Now the whole thing looks less prone to backroutes, good job.
Also I forgot to mention, but I love the post level screen texts ! I always feel bad when I read "SOMEONE wanted to watch the world burn", and that SOMEONE is me :( Come one lets aknowledge it, we did plenty of nukes in our Lemmings player lives just for the fun of it !
Some comments on the new settings affecting my previous replays :
Spoiler
Sour 5 / Sweet 2 (major design change, Sour 5 solution change)
Sweet 2 is still very accessible due to the 50% save required. But it prepares well for Sour 5.
Sour 5 was another story, quite hard now ! I used the "turn a miner with a blocker" trick to save miners needed on the right part of the level. Though the hardest part at the end was to turn that miner so that the crowd does not splat. By some kind of miracle and after many tries, I did it and unwillingly made a precise settings which uses "you fall between diagonal connecting pixels". With this setting, not only the crowd does not splat, but they all fall down in the good direction ! So I even saved a blocker here. Not sure this is intended ?
Sour 6 (design tweaks, solution overhaul). Now I find the level actually easier than before, but this may be because i did not find intended last time and struggled a lot with the timer. I think it is perfectly fine now.
The hardest part for me was to figure out how to save some time at the end : if you set the last delaying basher not high enough, the crowd will make a long way before turning back and you run out of time ! Setting it properly leaves plenty time and I could even save 100%
I took the time to play this pack and recorded myself doing so. Well worth coming out of NL retirement briefly to do so I should also add :thumbsup:
Some very good levels in this pack, I especially enjoyed solving Sour 5 and 6.
It's only one video of about an hour long, the pack was a good length I thought.
Sweet 'n' Sour Lems LP by Flopsy (https://youtu.be/gwrbg06IS50)
Please make more levels TomatoWatcher, these levels were a very good taster of what you're really capable of! ;P
You've done a good job of addressing the backroutes that were found here,
@The Tomato Watcher. Only one of my old replays still worked with the updated levels ( Long Road to Nowhere (3 from Sweet rank)). A few only required minor tweaks to my previous solutions, but agree with
@Guigui that Through Thick and Thin (5 from Sour rank) is now quite tricky. This is the one updated level that gave me a degree of head-scratching before hitting on the solution. Also agree with Guigui, that final level (6 from Sour), The Institution, is somehow easier than before but that's only because, like him, I think, I came up with some convoluted backroute that was really difficult to pull off in terms of timing. Don't get me wrong, it's still not easy by any means, but finding the proper solution is more intuitive now.
Spoiler
I dunno why, but the hardest part was seeing where the delaying basher should be placed and also that the height where you start bashing is important. Overall, an excellent level - very neat design.
I think we had the same solution for Sour 5, by the sounds of it :)
Spoiler
I didn't find the turning of the miner with the blocker was that critical, though maybe I just lucked out.
Overall, I can only concur with what
@Flopsy said above - great job with this pack, and more levels from you would be most welcome!
About Sour 5 @JawaJuice : I checked and we have the same solution indeed. Though my execution was way harder than yours bc I set the miner at an incorrect height, which made the crowd either walk left or splat when escaping the miner tunnel. Another case of player overcomplicating things for himself.
Though I still wonder if we have intended solution on Sour 5 Through Thick and Thin, I save 1 blocker and you save 1 blocker and 1 jumper.
Quote from: Guigui on November 28, 2025, 11:04:50 PMAbout Sour 5 @JawaJuice : I checked and we have the same solution indeed. Though my execution was way harder than yours bc I set the miner at an incorrect height, which made the crowd either walk left or splat when escaping the miner tunnel. Another case of player overcomplicating things for himself.
Though I still wonder if we have intended solution on Sour 5 Through Thick and Thin, I save 1 blocker and you save 1 blocker and 1 jumper.
I shall have a look at your replays! Always fun to compare :) To be honest, I also made the same mistake as you, starting the miner at the wrong height on my first attempt, I guess I just saw the starting point needed to be adjusted but I wasn't too precise about the adjustment; that's where I got lucky! Yeah, I'm not sure either if it's the right solution, though it has to be close if not. Maybe The Tomato Watcher will let us know :)
EDIT: Hmm, watching your replay of Sour 5, I'm not quite sure why you use the second jumper, I don't think you should need to if the miner tunnel is correct. Actually, watching the bit of Flopsy's LP video above, where he tackles the old version of this level, I think he shows what the intended solution should be ;)
Very few of the updated solutions are intended, but almost none are worth patching out. Sour 2 in particular feels impossible to ever be fully fixed, as it will always be possible for some precise lemming spacing to cheese the level (and might even be everyone's first thing to try no matter what), even if I make the save requirement as strict as possible. Kinda sucks because I thought the intended solution was clever, and if this level were in the original game that precise lemming spacing wouldn't even matter, but it is what it is, and it's not worth touching the level ever again.
Sour 4 is the exception. It might take a while, but I think I can make it work, we'll see.
I'm sorry about that, Tomato Watcher, but it's the nature of the beast unfortunately. I'm currently playtesting some levels for someone else, and they have now released about 7 patches for a single level because I keep accidentally backrouting it. It may be partly my fault for not seeing their intended solution but it is quite a difficult thing to enforce, simply because the possibility space is quite large in this game. Don't lose heart though, I thought your pack was great! It's very enjoyable to play.
Quote from: The Tomato Watcher on November 29, 2025, 11:24:17 PMVery few of the updated solutions are intended, but almost none are worth patching out. Sour 2 in particular feels impossible to ever be fully fixed, as it will always be possible for some precise lemming spacing to cheese the level (and might even be everyone's first thing to try no matter what), even if I make the save requirement as strict as possible. Kinda sucks because I thought the intended solution was clever, and if this level were in the original game that precise lemming spacing wouldn't even matter, but it is what it is, and it's not worth touching the level ever again.
Sour 4 is the exception. It might take a while, but I think I can make it work, we'll see.
I am kind of sad to read the bitterness here :(
As the average guy who keeps getting his levels backrouted in any possible ways by master solvers of this community, I have not given up yet and patch them over and over again to get closer to my goal. This is tough, especially considering the Save One mechanic in my pack is very prone to being destroyed by single tiny details.
Anyway, I gave another shot at Sour 2 and think I have found the intended solution, or near ? Clever indeed, I understand the frustration of seeing everyone avoiding it. If this is indeed intended, I may even give some ideas to enforce player to go that way :
Spoiler
* Locking Release Rate : RR is too powerful in compression level, dont give this freedom to players.
* Give only one blocker and put a high enough wall somewhere before the traps to allow compression between said wall and blocker only : a single place where compression is possible will enforce intended solution.
* Add more traps to the way : my previous solution that has 1 out of 3 close lemmings get through the 2 traps dies.
My apologies for the bitterness, that was uncalled for :( I need to learn to step back from the keyboard for a bit when I get frustrated.
I appreciate the kind words from you both. And Guigui, that is indeed essentially the intended solution for Sour 2. Thank you SO MUCH for your suggestions, genuinely. I'll be sure to try them out tomorrow and see what works.
No worries! :thumbsup: I understand it can be frustrating to spend time on fixing your levels only to watch people backroute them again - not intentionally, by the way, I want to stress that. I just try to find what seems like the most optimal, logical solution to my mind, which I guess doesn't always necessarily coincide with the author's intent. @Guigui's suggestions for fixing your Sour 2 level sound good, I'd definitely try to implement some of those!
On a more general note, I'd just add (from watching other authors fix my backroutes) that some other good tips for enforcing an intended solution are adding strategically placed steel elements, making terrain elements one-way (left, right, up or down arrows, depending on your purposes), reducing the amount of available terrain in key spots, locking release rate lower and adding more traps (both of which Guigui mentioned). I get that not all authors enjoy fixing backroutes, but if it's seen as part of the level creation process maybe it can be an enjoyable challenge in itself: outwitting the solvers, and making them dance to your tune! :D
Got around to finishing Version 4 :)
I reverted the (dumb) layout change to Sweet 1/Sour 1 and simply altered the skillset for Sour 1. I also altered the terrain of Sweet 3/Sour 2 and changed the skillset and other properties quite a bit for Sour 2, so hopefully it's a little more backroute-resistant now. I also simply made the backroute the intended solution on Sour 4. I appreciate everyone's kind words about the pack a whole lot, so thank you. :)
Hi
@The Tomato Watcher,I have played and solved all of V4 of the pack! :thumbsup: Replays attached.
I also recorded an LP of your pack: Kaywhyn's LP of The Tomato Watcher's Sweet 'N' Sour Lemmings (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJttVA4280-2ZsJbcOeEUcoe)
Enjoy! :P
General FeedbackSweet 'N' Sour Lemmings is a custom Lemmings level pack by The Tomato Watcher. 12 levels across 2 ranks of 6 levels each, with the rank names being Sweet and Sour. Most of the levels in the Sour rank are repeats of Sweet levels and I must say they are very well done! :thumbsup: Even the unique levels are great. I agree with The Tomato Watcher's classification of Easy-Medium for the difficulty of the pack, and I still enjoyed this pack very much even though it is short and on the easier side when it comes to custom Lemmings level packs :) Well done
@The Tomato Watcher, and as some others have said I too hope you make more levels in the future, as you definitely have a lot of potential with the wonderful levels you made for this pack! :thumbsup:
Sour 2 I would consider the hardest level of the entire pack. At least in the current V4. Very nice level but this one took me the longest to figure out, believe it or not ;) I'm not sure if it was true in earlier versions of the pack with being one of the hardest, but based on the changelog you posted maybe that wasn't the case. So yes, I would have to say it seems to be quite solid now in being backroute fixed!
Sweet Rank FeedbackGenerally characterized as open-ended levels with lenient skillsets and save requirements, though Sweet 2 has the tightest requirement despite a seemingly lenient one :P
Spoiler
Sweet 1 - Basic brick Nice level to start off the pack with a very nice save all optional challenge! :thumbsup:
Sweet 2 - Falling down the stairs You'll be fine as long as you accept the many unfortunate losses here, as there's nothing you can do about the ones that get trapped at the bottom.
Sweet 3 - Long road to nowhere Can be challenging since there's no way to hold back the crowd, but you do have the necessary skills to avoid both of the traps. It's a matter of clearing obstacles as you get to them in order to avoid too many unnecessary losses.
Sweet 4 - Wish upon a Lemming Nice open-ended level with another great save all! :thumbsup:
Sweet 5 - Just relax... As long as you know your stoner mechanics and realize you need to build over both the first and third gaps, you'll be fine here. I'm definitely surprised this managed to stump Guigui, but here I acknowledge that it's simply likely due to him not being well-versed with stoners.
Sweet 6 - A Puzzle Adventure Nice level to finish off the rank! :thumbsup: I'm not sure if anything's changed here from previous versions, as I did take a quick look at the level after Pieuw posted not being able to solve this one, which I don't think is difficult. Again, it's due to him not being used to the new portal objects that were added in v12.13 NL.
Most levels here are repeats of levels in the Sweet rank, with the levels made harder usually by reducing the skillset and increased save requirements.
Spoiler
Sour 1 - Back again? Excellent level to start the rank! :thumbsup: Love that sending two climbers ahead, one to build to the exit for the others and the other to turn around to bash the OWW to free the crowd, with the added twist that you need to time it correctly so that the first climber doesn't get blocked by the builder staircase and therefore will prevent him from coming back to the crowd later on. Well done! :thumbsup:
Sour 2 - I need some space... Definitely the hardest level of the pack IMO, as it took me a while to figure out the solution. Another very nice level and one of the best of the pack! :thumbsup: Nice use of the blocker to compress the crowd but with the added twist that you must release them before everyone falls out of the entrance so that you can bash through the first diagonal terrain before you lose too many from falling out the wrong way. Well done here as well! :thumbsup:
Sour 3 - Chasm Capers Open-ended level and very interesting there's 2 of everything except for builders where you have 60 :laugh: I'm not sure if the level is supposed to be harder than this or if it's simply anyway you like and that you just need to be quick before you lose too many Lemmings.
Sour 4 - The Ball Pit Excellent level! :thumbsup: That jumping the penultimate gap to dig and then bomb in order to have the final builder go all the way through to the exit platform without getting interrupted is quite clever.
Sour 5 - Through thick and thin Another excellent level! Jumping over the gap and exit and mining from above along with bouncing off a blocker to free the crowd from below for the solution is really nice :thumbsup: And of course that shimmier, I love the shimmier skill a lot in NL :)
Sour 6 - The Institution This definitely reminds me of a past contest level of The Tomato Watcher's which was kind of one that failed because it was backroutable IIRC. It seems way more solid here. Nice level to finish off the pack and not too difficult to figure out since you don't have that many options at any moment. Nice added touch with the final builder to the exit and then using the walker skill to turn him around to bash and release the crowd.
Thank you again for this pack
@The Tomato Watcher and again hope you make more levels in the future! :thumbsup:
Nice job on the V4 updates, @The Tomato Watcher! I attach my replays, hopefully they're closer to your intended solutions now! :thumbsup: You certainly fixed my previous backroutes with all four of these. Had to think about the updated Back again for a minute!