All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix Player!
NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7t83f71h34nfet/Contest_26.zip?dl=1
Music: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zqfah0w1az117l/Contest_26_Music.zip?dl=1
Rule 1 Levels
Armani's "The Irony of Fate" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Empire Of Bones" (V2)
kaywhyn's "Steeling the Inevitable Victory" (V17)
NieSch's "Blocker from Hell" (V2)
Silken Healer's "Jumping Near The Water" (V2)
Rule 2 Levels
Armani's "There's a Sniper in the Forest" (V1)
Crane's "Perilous Parkour" (V7)
IchoTolot's "The Living Infinite" (V4)
kaywhyn's "Don't Stop Shimmying 'Til You Had Enough" (V22)
NieSch's "Let's Go for Gold" (V2)
Silken Healer's "Blow Up The Wall!" (V1)
Rule 3 Levels
IchoTolot's "Upwards To The Lower Floor" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Outdoor Lemming Rangers to the Rescue" (V6)
NieSch's "Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland" (V4)
SQron188's "I hate sand" (V1)
Armani's "Yuna's Room" (V2)
Silken Healer's "Race To Reach The Bottom" (V3)
You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6033.0
Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of October!
Updates will close on 28th of October!
Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.
Link to update topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6059.0)
This is gonna be fun again! :)
I stumbled on a first solution.
I bet this one isn't intended.
@Niesch
Thanks for being so quick with playing two of my levels! :thumbsup: Indeed, they're backroutes for my R2 and R3. They're supposed to be much harder than that! For R2, added steel and made the cloners pickups. For R3, increased the lemming count to 40. That was a terrible "undersight" on my part :forehead:
Even after the changes, I still assess my R3 to be the easiest of my levels, while R1 is most definitely my hardest, and very likely the hardest level I have made thus far in my Lemmings level making career. that is, assuming all backroutes for the level are fixed of course. However, I wish you luck if you're still trying to get it solved.
Thanks again for the R2 and R3 replays! ;)
You're welcome. Here's another solution for your R3 level.
@Niesch
Doh, that's another obvious backroute I missed :laugh: For V3, I modified the terrain/steel/some water areas a bit, removed the platformer and replaced it with another builder, and added a trap. This might do it now, but let's see :P
Thanks for the resolve of R3! ;)
I solved cranes Rule 2 level (Both Talismans).
Also solved Armani's Rule 2 level.
All R2's and R3's solved. Replays attached except for Icho's levels, as I pretested them. The R1's, I must say, are quite tough, and as I have spent a lot of time and haven't had any success on them yet, I skipped them after some time and went straight for the other two rulesets. I will have another go at them soon!
R2 FeedbackThese levels featuring infinite jumpers were all quite interesting, to say the least! :thumbsup:
Armani's There's a Sniper in the Forest R2V1
Nice medium difficulty level here. It was almost like playing a shoot 'em up game when eliminating the zombies with a laser skill. It's critical to interrupt the shimmier with a walker skill so that you can get the rest of the zombies first before doing it a few more times. This is something I often overlook!
Crane's Perilous Parkour R2V1
My initial attempts had me go through the zombie horde at the bottom right, but as I ran into some problems due to being a glider because I went through the upper part of the level, I looked for one that didn't use the glider so I could repeatedly jump between the emerald pillar and steel blocks. I also had a whack at the challenges but as I will likely need more time for them, I may or might not reattempt them :P
edit: Got them! ;)
Niesch's Let's Go For Gold R2V1
Nice infinite jumpers only level featuring a preassigned climber hatch and a preassigned slider hatch. I'm quite close with the challenge solution, I'll have another go at it soon.
edit: Got it, although it required maxing out the RR at the very start. I don't know if it's possible to do it while not touching the RR
R3 FeedbackNot much for me to do here, especially since there's mine and Icho's which I pretested. So, that means I only needed to play 2 R3 levels! :laugh:
Niesch's Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland R3V1
Nice 1-of-everything level. I do have some skills left, so this probably isn't exactly intended :P
SQRon188's I hate sand
Very nice level! :thumbsup: Building to hit his head to turn around and immediately mine to chip off the ceiling to let the swimmer through was genius, although I've seen this trick already in an Insane Steve World's level ;) I really love how the solution all comes together when you figure it out. It can still be a deceivingly difficult level despite the super minimal skillset. Anyway, great job, and thank you for participating in your first one in quite a while :) It was very nice to play another level by you.
All rightie, pending maybe a backroute to Niesch's R3, that just leaves the R1's to play. Again, had a go at them but no success yet. I will try again later!
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 09, 2022, 09:02:55 AM
Niesch's Let's Go For Gold R2V1
Nice infinite jumpers only level featuring a preassigned climber hatch and a preassigned slider hatch. I'm quite close with the challenge solution, I'll have another go at it soon.
edit: Got it, although it required maxing out the RR at the very start. I don't know if it's possible to do it while not touching the RR
Spoiler
Well done! It is possible without changing the RR too.
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 09, 2022, 09:02:55 AM
Niesch's Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland R3V1
Nice 1-of-everything level. I do have some skills left, so this probably isn't exactly intended :P
Spoiler
Yep, not intended. I'll make the piece of water wider in V2.
Pack has been updated and it also includes now a new level+music from Armani for Rule 3!
That one slipped right past me while preparing pack+topic. :-[
I solved Icho's R3 level. I like it a lot. :thumbsup:
Quote from: NieSch on September 09, 2022, 07:07:21 PM
I solved Icho's R3 level. I like it a lot. :thumbsup:
Intended solution! :thumbsup:
You even managed to save one more shimmier than in my own solution! Which is totally fine in this level as long as the correct overall method is being used. ;)
Forgot to announce that the solutions to my levels are backroutes, although granted it's hard to patch infinite jumpers. V2 released.
my replays so far
I quite enjoyed most of the levels of this contest.
Thanks for the kind words, kaywhyn!
Oh, and I recorded myself playing these https://youtu.be/-A6phUtNrvo
Quote from: SQron188 on September 09, 2022, 09:40:42 PM
Thanks for the kind words, kaywhyn!
Oh, and I recorded myself playing these https://youtu.be/-A6phUtNrvo
My pleasure and thanks for playing my levels! :thumbsup: Thanks to you, some backroutes for both my R1 and R2 have been discovered. For R1, that's a very bad backroute. It's supposed to be far harder than that. That is, unless there are still some backroutes that still break the level. I suspect if the intended solution is enforced, it could possibly be the hardest level in the entire collection.
For R1, I added some steel, shifted a steel platform in the middle left area, shifted a fire trap, and replaced a trap with a different one. I'm not sure if this catches all backroutes, but well, let's see.
I realized that one for my R2, but I didn't think it would come up. Good find! :thumbsup: For V3 of my R2, added some OWAs. This should do the trick! :laugh:
For my R3, watching you have an attempt at it is quite helpful for me, as I get to see how one might go about solving it, as well as see what kind of things could trip people up when doing so. I can see that in a way I unintentionally made the level harder than I thought I did, as honestly my R3 is completely meh since I couldn't really come up with anything good for it other than the trick at the beginning that I wanted to include in the solution. For example, you showed me how a lot of possibilities you have tried come up at least a skill short. Not to mention I threw in far more red herrings than I thought I did. All I have to say here is that all of your attempts are a bit far from the intended route. However, the hardest part is the very beginning of keeping everyone safe. Once you do figure out how, the rest will fall into place.
Again, I can't thank you enough for these replays to my levels and for playing them! :thumbsup:
@kaywhyn @ericderkovits
Well done! Both of your solutions are acceptable! :thumbsup:
It's an open-ended level that any solutions are acceptable as long as you eliminate all the zombies.
This level is one of the results of me experimenting to make levels that are very different to normal lemmings levels. ;)
I played rule2 first and here're my replays! 8-)
Jumper is a very powerful skill and it shows ;P
Perilous Parkour
I got both talisman. The title fit the level really well. It was fun to do parkour in a very limited amount of time or with limited amount of skills while avoding all the zombies. :thumbsup:
The Living Infinite
I might have backrouted this one! I have a lot of leftover skills.(outside the jumpers of course :D) Very neat level design with nice music though! I like them a lot.
Don't Stop Shimmying 'Til You Had Enough
I might have backrouted this level too! Surely the intended solution would be much more satisfying than mine :laugh: I can see numerous path the shimmier lemmings can take so I'm looking forward to play this level again after it's properly fixed.
Let's Go for Gold
Very fun level to play! I like the concept and it really fits the spirit of the rule well.
I like the fact that we all chose different styles for the L2-levels, by the way.
@Armani:
Yes, that's a backroute. I changed up the exit area a bit so that you can't just dig to victory there. ;)
Also the pack in general has been updated. :)
Quote from: NieSch on September 10, 2022, 07:41:24 AM
I like the fact that we all chose different styles for the L2-levels, by the way.
Yeah, I was actually meaning to use L2 Beach for some time myself.
I solved SQron188's level. Clever little puzzle!
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 09, 2022, 11:51:17 PM
Again, I can't thank you enough for these replays to my levels and for playing them! :thumbsup:
Part 2 https://youtu.be/30XF_iFGb0M
Part 3 coming soon
Quote from: Armani on September 10, 2022, 04:58:16 AM
Don't Stop Shimmying 'Til You Had Enough
I might have backrouted this level too! Surely the intended solution would be much more satisfying than mine :laugh: I can see numerous path the shimmier lemmings can take so I'm looking forward to play this level again after it's properly fixed.
@Armani: This is how you quote a spoiler tag, btw. Simply leave the tags at both the start and the end there and then whatever's behind it will remain behind the spoiler tag when you click on "quote." I just noticed you did the same in the Uncharted pack of leaving what I spoilered out in the open for a Libra level, so yea, just wanted to help and advise you there :P
Anyway, yes, that is another bad backroute that I missed for my R2. Luckily, it's an easy fix. For V4, I added some more OWAs, a small block, and shifted down the terrain near the top on the right side.
I'm sure you'll absolutely love the level once the intended solution is enforced :)
Quote from: NieSch on September 10, 2022, 07:41:24 AM
I like the fact that we all chose different styles for the L2-levels, by the way.
You're right! :lem-mindblown:
All from official Lemmings games too! Icho's and yours are Crystal and Pillar, respectively, both from L1, while Crane's and mine are from ONML, Rock and Brick, respectively. Finally, Armani's is the Outdoor tileset from L2
Quote from: SQron188 on September 10, 2022, 09:52:19 AM
Yeah, I was actually meaning to use L2 Beach for some time myself.
I try to make sure I vary the tilesets I use to make levels instead of using just the ones from the official Lemmings games. In this case, I've already repeated the Brick tileset after just 12 levels, which isn't much but I guess that technically can be seen as a lot from me lol. I really do love the fact there's so many to choose from, but at the same time that also makes it difficult to pick one when making levels too
Quote
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 09, 2022, 11:51:17 PM
Again, I can't thank you enough for these replays to my levels and for playing them! :thumbsup:
Part 2 https://youtu.be/30XF_iFGb0M
Part 3 coming soon
Thanks again! :)
Quote@Armani: This is how you quote a spoiler tag, btw. Simply leave the tags at both the start and the end there and then whatever's behind it will remain behind the spoiler tag when you click on "quote." I just noticed you did the same in the Uncharted pack of leaving what I spoilered out in the open for a Libra level, so yea, just wanted to help and advise you there :P
That was intentional. That's how I quote a spoiler tag. :P
And I squeezed in more time to solve rule1 levels 8-)
Empire Of Bones
I spared several permanent skills. I hope at least my solution remotely resembles the intended one! I had fun finding the most efficient route for the slider guys and the crowd by platforming, blocking and freeing the blockers with the miners. :D
Steeling the Inevitable Victory
I can see some similarities between this level and the one from the united. Similar titles, same tileset, mostly steel(although your level is completely steel ;P) It seems like the level need some more fixes though.
Blocker from Hell
Wow the layout of this level is so cool :thumbsup: Also the solution of the level was also very neat! Especially I was short on constructive skills so I had to minimize using it while not losing many lemmings.
Quote from: Armani on September 10, 2022, 12:59:06 PM
Blocker from Hell
Wow the layout of this level is so cool :thumbsup: Also the solution of the level was also very neat! Especially I was short on constructive skills so I had to minimize using it while not losing many lemmings.
Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Your solution is very much what I intended but you managed to save more lemmings and spare more skills. It's not a backroute, it's just very well done. :thumbsup:
Edit: I decided to make a little change in the level after all. See the update topic. ;)
Almost there with "Perilous Parkour" - there's not meant to be excessively tight timing required on this level, but at the same time there's a puzzle-solving element. V3 now released (sorry guys!)
@Armani
Yeah, that's still quite backroutey.
Some miners are now pick-ups in V2.
The pack overall has also been updated again! :)
Another solution for kaywhyn's R2 level. (V4)
Edit: And also for R3. (Sorry, more backroutes I'm afraid.)
This solution to kaywhyn's R3 level feels better.
Solved final rank of the contest pack! 8-)
Upwards To The Lower Floor
It was a easy but also clever level! I saved several shimmiers but I don't think my solution is a backroute. :laugh:
Outdoor Lemming Rangers to the Rescue
I think my solution is somewhat acceptable(?). I can feel it. :D Especially the way to contain the crowd from the rightmost hatch is very clever and feels intended. The position of the rightside hatch was kind of suspicious and I came up with your comment on one of my level(Triple Trouble in Space :laugh:) and figure out the main trick!
Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland
Beautiful scenery with nice use of tileset mixing :thumbsup: Not the most difficult level but I had to think carefully which skill I have to use first. (If my solution is intended ;P)I was very tempting to use the digger to remove the long pillar but it didn't work! It was a nice red herring I would say!
I hate sand
It was a small with very minimal skillsets but still end up being quite tricky! I enjoyed it a lot :laugh: I especially like the usage of the miner to release the bottom lemming while also chiping off the ceiling to release the top lemming :D
My solutions for the updated levels will come on the next weekend as I'm pretty busy on weekdays :(
Quote from: Armani on September 11, 2022, 10:44:19 AM
Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland
Beautiful scenery with nice use of tileset mixing :thumbsup: Not the most difficult level but I had to think carefully which skill I have to use first. (If my solution is intended ;P)I was very tempting to use the digger to remove the long pillar but it didn't work! It was a nice red herring I would say!
Thanks! Your solution is completely intended.
Spoiler
(Using the digger to remove the pillar leaves 1 pixel between the two tunnels I think. :P)
Quote from: Armani on September 11, 2022, 10:44:19 AM
I hate sand
It was a small with very minimal skillsets but still end up being quite tricky! I enjoyed it a lot :laugh: I especially like the usage of the miner to release the bottom lemming while also chiping off the ceiling to release the top lemming :D
Thank you for the words of appreaciation, they are greatly appreciated! :D Yes, that was the intended trick of this level and its main idea.
This trick as well as the tileset's been on my mind for a while and I had to itch this scratch. ; )
BTW I really enjoyed your levels, especially the one where you shoot zombies, they're just beyond my solving skills! :#
PSA: part 3 of my solving attempts is on YouTube https://youtu.be/IuYqd2Tqik4
@Armani:
I had 1 shimmier left over, NieSch 2 and you 3 now. :D
It is totally fine and intended though! :thumbsup:
Maybe that is a good bronze talisman solution in future pack inclusions as with a little bit of planning and timing you can easily save those 3.
@SQron
One of your attempts in your video made me find a bad backroute to my R2 which is now fixed with a steel block, so thanks for that! ;P
Quote from: SQron188 on September 11, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
PSA: part 3 of my solving attempts is on YouTube https://youtu.be/IuYqd2Tqik4
These videos of yours are fun to watch! You were very close with finding a backroute for my R3 level. I made some changes to it in V4 so this backroute is no longer possible. And well done finding a solution to my R2 level.
@NieschR2 - You're correct in that's a backroute. For V5, I added some more steel, OWAs, and added and modified some terrain. Also moved the cloner pickups and the basher is now a pickup.
R3 - Both solutions are backroutes, sadly. For V4 - I widened the water gap and shifted the terrain on the right side of it.
@ArmaniYour solution to R3 is almost 100% intended, but what isn't is the way you used the second basher. So, for V4 I added some steel. So for this version, all you just need is a way to contain the crowd, tweak the second basher assignment, and then you have the intended solution! ;)
Quote from: Armani on September 10, 2022, 12:59:06 PM
That was intentional. That's how I quote a spoiler tag. :P
Ah, well personally, if something was behind a spoiler tag to begin with, then the user being quoted generally had a really good reason for doing so. For me, it's simple: It's because I don't want the solution spoiled for anyone! Of course, even with a spoiler tag there's nothing stopping the person from opening it, either accidentally or intentionally, but well, that's on him or her. Thus, I would make it remain behind one when I'm quoting another user :P However, I will say this, and that is you did do it correctly when you made the update to Uncharted and replied to some of my solutions/remarks, so that was much appreciated ;)
All in all, this essentially means not a single person has found the intended solution to any of my levels yet! :crylaugh: However, I think I have a really good feeling for both my R2 and R3 now. R1 is probably still very broken, but well, let's see. Try the new updates and I'll keep my fingers crossed I'll finally have the intended solution enforced on one or some of them now!
Quote from: IchoTolot on September 11, 2022, 01:29:48 PM
@SQron
One of your attempts in your video made me find a bad backroute to my R2 which is now fixed with a steel block, so thanks for that! ;P
yw
Quote from: NieSch on September 11, 2022, 05:25:27 PM
These videos of yours are fun to watch! You were very close with finding a backroute for my R3 level. I made some changes to it in V4 so this backroute is no longer possible. And well done finding a solution to my R2 level.
Thanks. Figuring out which areas are safe-to-enter for sliders & climbers, respectively, was satisfying
@kaywhyn: I'm starting to see where the intended solution to your R2 level is heading, but I found another backroute (for V5) first. Here it is.
I hope you don't get discouraged by all the backroutes. It's the fact that you only need to save 1 lemming in combination with the unlimited number of jumpers that is causing it I think. (And there is always gonna be backroutes of course, in almost every level.)
Thanks for the replay, Niesch! :thumbsup: Indeed, it's another backroute that I somehow missed. For V6, it's an easy fix: Replaced the barrel with the bigger one, added some OWAs on the barrel, as well as a small block, and shifted the terrain a bit in that area. Now you won't be able to cheese the level the way you did! :P
Quote from: NieSch on September 13, 2022, 08:47:06 AM
I hope you don't get discouraged by all the backroutes. It's the fact that you only need to save 1 lemming in combination with the unlimited number of jumpers that is causing it I think. (And there is always gonna be backroutes of course, in almost every level.)
It can hurt, but as with anything, experience helps! Backroutes arise not only because sometimes it's not possible to catch them on your own, but also it's extremely difficult to predict how another player will go about solving your level. Thus, it is never certain that all backroutes have been caught. I've made enough levels to know that backroute fixing can sometimes be just as time consuming as solving. In addition, the more complicated the level/solution, the more likely the level can be backrouted due to the degrees of freedom such a level can provide, especially with the skillset.
In any case, you and SQRon are other players besides Armani and Icho (who always play all contest levels, including mine) who have shown me additional backroutes, and for that I'm very thankful for the replays. I think you already know Armani and Icho both have the very uncanny ability to backroute levels because they're extremely good at the game. Therefore, it's very difficult to backroute fix against them. I've had my fair share of numerous backroutes from each of them in some of the previous contests :laugh:
I found another way around it, kaywhyn.
Spoiler
I'll keep trying to find the intended solution. I'm sure it involves turning the shimmier around with blockers which will make for a cool solution in the end.
@Niesch
Ugh, just when I finally think there's no other way around the intended solution :forehead: For V7, the RR is now locked and I added another small block. This should do it now... I hope!
Nope, here's another one. I'll give the level a rest now and come back to it later. :)
Turns out my fix didn't quite work as planned. V4 of Perilous Parkour now released.
@Niesch Ok, finally released a V8 for my R2, which replaced the brick terrain with another piece type and added several of them near the barrel, as well as more OWAs. Also added a small brick piece close where the exit is in the area beneath it. It took a while because I kept trying to stop a backroute I discovered to no success. I think this might finally do it. If this still doesn't stop your backrouting, then I'm not sure what else I can do with this level to fix it further without making it more of a mess which it's starting to become :(
I dare ask if Perilous Parkour is fixed now or if previous solutions still work with some adjustments (the ones I've seen so far are backroutes).
Finally got all the R1's solved, although in Icho's case a resolve, as I pretested his R1 but we failed to get it properly all patched up before the start of the playing phase. My replays are attached. I must say, all the R1's are quite difficult, and I even assess mine to be hard as well. If anything, my R1 could possibly be the hardest of the entire contest collection pack, assuming backroutes don't break it, of course, but if not, then possibly contender for the hardest after Icho's R1.
@IchoOk, I think we finally got the 100% intended solution enforced! :thumbsup: It might had taken 1 more version because of Armani, but you finally did it ;) I can't shake the feeling that I didn't do enough for you because of how your R1 didn't get all patched up before the start of the playing phase, but well, this is just me being too hard on myself, so I think you will disagree about me not having done enough. Not to mention that it isn't worth it to delay the playing phase just because of this, especially as it was already delayed once when the submission phase deadline got pushed back.
I do have a blocker left, but I know exactly what it's for.
Spoiler
It's to avoid the timing element I did on the far right side with the platformer. The blocker I released earlier just happen to come at the right time in order to mine and so the platformer keeps going to the left while the miner slides out to the right. So really, mine is just the intended solution that happens to be a challenge solution of sparing a blocker. Also, now I know the small thing that kept being missed, and that was platforming to the left from the builder staircase near the exit to help the sliders go back the right way towards the exit. This was quite hard to see, interestingly enough!
Armani's The Irony of Fate R1V1
I'm very positive this is the intended solution and if so, nice level here! :thumbsup: Indeed, this was challenging but that's because the backwards builder trick in combination with the glider was very hard to see. I tried it before and I thought I saw it didn't work, but I think that was only because of how I placed the builder going to the left. The glider just barely lands on the staircase, but that is the nice thing about gliders in that they open up their glide much faster than floaters. Any other solution I tried just ends up running at least a skill short or just doesn't work at all. I got to ask, why 55 stoners? Perhaps that's the "irony"?
Niesch's Blocker From Hell R1V2
This was quite tough, especially since resources are far tighter than they appear. The only saving grace here is the very low RR. I think after a while it becomes very apparent how nearly all constructive skills need to be used, as otherwise you'll just run out. The hardest to see was on the right side with two builders being enough to stop the splatting. Before, I kept using stackers to do so, as in my mind I thought the builders would be very useful elsewhere. I thought using two builders to stop the splattage was too "wasteful," hence why I rejected this for a while. I don't like how one lemming went splat on the left while the second platformer was going, as by that point I ran out of floaters/gliders. I do have some skills left, but they're mostly blockers/bombers and a few climbers. Even then, this seems to be an open-ended level for the most part, although still not too much because of the very restricted skillset. This one definitely reminds me of Taxing 6 from LLL, as I remember criticizing it for being way too tight on the execution in order to be able to save that crucial lemming from the right entrance that would otherwise leave you 1 under the requirement. Here, the timing isn't as tight, but there's still the sense of urgency to stop the splatting ASAP. Doubly so because both hatches are splat ones. That's easily the hardest part of the level, how to stop splatting from both entrances as quickly as you can.
I was planning to post the R1 replays after I got Armani's R3 solved, but I will need some more time to think about it. I simply wanted to get all the R1's done :P
Resolved all the updated levels. 8-) (all R1s, all R2s and kaywhyn's R3)
@kaywhyn
That's exactly the intended solution! Well done! :thumbsup:
QuoteI got to ask, why 55 stoners? Perhaps that's the "irony"?
Spoiler
Perhaps I didn't want to give away the fact that you need to use all the 3 stoners.
If you're given exactly 3 stoners, that usually feels like you are gonna use all of them. (or is it just me? :laugh:)
But here you are given far more stoners than you can afford to lose so you know you can use <4 stoners but you are not sure
how many of them will be used in the solution.
No idea on why I chose the random number 55!
The RR is also 55 though ;)
@kaywhyn @Armani: Well done solving my R1 level (again)! Your solutions are fine or even a bit better than my intended one, see attachment. :thumbsup:
@kaywhyn @Armani: You both got the same acceptable/intended solution to my R1, great job! :thumbsup:
The saved blocker is exactly for avoiding that one timing thing as kaywhyn described! ;)
@Armani:
Still a bad backroute to R2 though. More steel should fix it hopefully.
@Armani
R1: Your replay doesn't work for the latest version of it, which is V3. I guess that's my fault, since I forgot to mention that I updated my R1 to fix your backroute in V2 :-[ Also if you redownloaded the collection pack my V3 is in there, and you would had seen that your replay for V2 doesn't work :P So, I still have no idea if my R1 is properly patched up yet, although I think I thought up of something that might be taken advantage of in it, but well, let's see first ;)
R2: Yup, still a backroute. For V9, I moved the basher pickup, so this might be back to the drawing board :P
R3: Backroute as well. For V5, I increased the RR to 70, as well as locked the RR, and I smoothed out the terrain near the frog traps.
Once more, nobody still has gotten the intended solutions to any of my levels :evil: It's my R1 that I really want to know if it is properly patched or still very broken. R2 and R3 I think are more or less completely patched now, but well, let's see. Keep those replays coming! :thumbsup:
@Amrani:
For Perilous Parkour, the speedy solution is a backroute, and the conservative solution is almost intended, although an oversight permitted a small shortcut. Easy enough to fix though. V5 uploaded
Here are my replays for :
Cranes Rule 2 level both Talismans
and
Kaywhyn's Rule 1 level (most likely not intended since I had skills left over)
Dang, every nook and cranny is being used against me! Nice one eric. V6 incoming.
@eric Yes, that is a backroute for my R1. For V4, I lowered the upper right fire trap, as well as added more fire traps and a small steel block. I think this still won't be enough, but I think I know of a few other ways in which the level can still be backrouted. However, let's see how V4 stands up to scrutiny.
Also, I asked you kindly long ago to not bug me about me not going for talismans, but you're apparently still pestering me about that, not on this site but offsite. It's a personal decision of mine, and if you don't like that I don't go for them, deal with it. I honestly don't care about them at all, as I have repeatedly said several times. What I take issue with is you saying you don't care for them but you go for them anyway. I'm not bothered by you going for those solutions, that's not the problem, but rather the contradiction in what you say and do. Not only that, but you saying that I'm the only one who doesn't go for them. That's not cool at all to single me out like that, when that's obviously not true, since there's some others who don't as well.
This isn't my biggest gripe, though. I'm even more bothered by how you took levels/conversions of mine from last year and changed them without my permission or without discussing the changes with me first. Always, always ask the author first. There'll be less problems this way. Especially in a case like this, as I tend to be very overprotective of my content.
I honestly don't want to have a falling out with you too, but you haven't acknowledged or owed up to me with these things, so that's quite hurtful for me.
Anyway, for everyone else, no intended solutions for any of my levels yet :( I honestly didn't expect them to be backrouted so much. Especially my R3, which I consider to be very meh and not all that interesting IMO.
@kaywhyn
Quote from: NieSch on September 13, 2022, 05:46:03 PM
I'll give the level [R2] a rest now and come back to it later. :)
I haven't solved it but I'm getting closer to what is intended I suspect. See the attachment for my best attempt.
Spoiler
I need to get another lemming up left to bomb free the path for the climber but I don't know how.
resolved 8-)
I might have found the intended solutions to The Living Ininite and Outdoor Lemmings Rangers to the Rescue.
@Armani
Yes, finally that is intended! Great job! :thumbsup:
@ArmaniR1 - Yup, still pretty broken. For V5, added some steel, replaced some water with fire traps, and shifted some of the area on the far left down some. I don't think this will catch everything yet, and if it doesn't, I'm thinking of putting in a timer for the next version. However, it depends on how bad the backroute is, so let's see first.
R2 - Both solutions are backroutes, and it seems the way the laser was used was the source of the backroutes in both replays. So, for V10 I added another steel block.
R3 - Finally, a level of mine solved 100% intended! :thumbsup: I was even generous here giving more swimmers than needed :P
Also, finally resolved all R2 and R3, as well as got Armani's R3 solved. My entire replay collection is attached, including my solutions to Ichos' levels. I will attach the intended solutions to my levels at a later time, once all of them have been solved the intended way or are deemed acceptable.
These all seem to be intended/acceptable solutions except for Crane's R2, as I was still able to backroute it :P
Spoiler
I'm very positive the way I used the miner is not intended! Thus, I was able to spare the shimmier again :P Also, I "stunlocked" the lemming in place by infinitely assigning the jumper at the bottom
@ArmaniMy solution to your R3 seems quite hackish, especially with the way one of the shimmiers is used, although maybe it's intended? I'm not sure.
Spoiler
This one was harder than I thought it be. I kept thinking to use a builder from right to left to catch the climber coming from above, but instead I came up with a hackish way to avoid that by bombing twice. This was hard to find, as the bombers need to be very precise. I also used one of the shimmiers as a delay/stall tactic. Otherwise, this is a great puzzle, thinking about how to spare a shimmier to get the worker lemming to build and seal the gap to the exit and then mine everyone free from the other side. Time is much tighter than I thought it be too, and so I used the blocker to reduce the amount of walking back and forth the climber does to save those precious seconds.
@IchoI needed to resolve your R2, as apparently the change right where the exit is was enough to break it. However, the jumper assignments in that area were the only ones I needed to tweak, and so ultimately this solution is more or less the same as my pre-testing one, sparing a shimmier as well. However, it seems that it hasn't opened up any major backroute, so it's probably still in the acceptable region?
My replay for your R3 is the same one from pre-testing, so no need to check that one. For your R1, that replay is the one from a few days ago, and you have said that it is now acceptable/intended, so don't need to check that one either.
@NieschR2 doesn't really need any checking, as even though it broke my replay and hence I had to resolve it, the change is simply to block getting a climber to certain buttons.
Your R3 seems solid and intended now! :thumbsup: Funny thing was that I couldn't figure it out last night, but when I came back to it tonight I had no problems with it :laugh: You also seem to very much love 1-of-everything levels, as recently I was helping Ryemanni out with one of your Tricky levels from LLL because he had been stuck on it for a few days. I love these types of levels too, although the ones I've seen from you are quite challenging! Not a bad thing at all, I love hard levels and a good challenge ;)
Spoiler
The digger was quite hard to see here. I kept thinking to use it on the pillar the climber goes over, but then that creates the problem where the miner use won't be able to release the crowd later.
All rightie, I'll be back to resolve any patched up levels that need it at a much later time. I definitely need a break from these contest entries, especially since fixing mine up prove to be just as much work as playing and solving these! Nice job to everyone with their levels! :thumbsup:
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 23, 2022, 08:23:38 AM
@Niesch
Your R3 seems solid and intended now! :thumbsup: Funny thing was that I couldn't figure it out last night, but when I came back to it tonight I had no problems with it :laugh: You also seem to very much love 1-of-everything levels, as recently I was helping Ryemanni out with one of your Tricky levels from LLL because he had been stuck on it for a few days. I love these types of levels too, although the ones I've seen from you are quite challenging! Not a bad thing at all, I love hard levels and a good challenge ;)
It's intended, well done. Yes, I really like 1-of-everything levels. There's seven of them in my pack LLL. Most of the time the solution turns out to be harder to find than I thought, like in this R3-case.
@kaywhyn
r1 and r2 are intended as I already mentioned r3 is a backroute. :(
And I resolved the updated 2 levels. 8-)
I will probably puzzle myself through the levels in the first week of October as I have the week off there. :)
I see there are still quite a few backroutes in there.
A little announcement here: Just to let everyone know, Icho will be away until about Monday evening, and so any updates to levels just grab them from the update topic! ;)
@ArmaniFinally got around to fixing the backroutes you found to my levels. I really needed the break, fixing my levels up was really stressing me out. Fixing levels is something I hate doing a lot.
R1 - Still a pretty bad backroute. V6 is a big one. Modified the starting area a bit and added a flamethrower, added more steel blocks to the floating steel platform near the start, added a firebox, and added a 3:45 timer. My guess is that the timer will drastically cut out a lot of backroutes, even if it doesn't block all. So, now you'll have to do a lot of multitasking!
R2 - I knew I should had put OWAs on the rest of the terrain near and below the exit :forehead: That's really the only change for V11, and also some OWAs on the slanted platform around the middle left too.
I also resolved your R3. This seems intended now! :thumbsup:
Spoiler
The hardest thing to see here was how to use the blocker. It almost doesn't work, as my solution relies on the climber getting past the final lemming that comes out of the trapdoor so that I could hold him in place and release him with a nearby non-climber bomber later. The rest was easy after that, although sacrificing a lemming to the bottomless pit after building the landing bridge at the bottom was also hard to see. Before this, I kept blocking with the climber on the staircase and bombing him free with the miner when he came back. However, this created the problem in that the climber goes over the bombable thin wall before I could get a non-athlete there on time. So, it at least told me I was on the right track.
Needless to say, the little change you made to the steel block where the water pit is made the solution a bit more obvious, as it pretty much screamed out that I could no longer use that area for any shenanigans. Granted, I still tried some things there, but for the most part it almost can be ruled out completely.
@kaywhyn
Yeah~ that's exactly intended :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteNeedless to say, the little change you made to the steel block where the water pit is made the solution a bit more obvious, as it pretty much screamed out that I could no longer use that area for any shenanigans. Granted, I still tried some things there, but for the most part it almost can be ruled out completely.
Agreed. That has been the most troublesome part even from the testing phase. Now it seems pretty obvious that you cannot use that area to send a climber lemming anymore. But the level still has some puzzle elements to figure out(make the climber a blokcer and release him later with a nearby bomber/sacrifice a lemming to make a builder staircase so the climber lemming can land on later) so I'm happy with that. :D
I am back again and updated the pack. :)
I will try and work myself through the levels this week and then post my solutions.
I've finally started recording and uploading my playthrough showing off my solutions to the contest levels. Here's Part 1 which are the R1 levels, and the other parts will follow at a later time. Just like the previous contest, same format, where I show off my solutions and then provide some nice commentary on top of it. I just don't have the time, energy, and motivation to do LPs like I used to, and so the format of playing through the levels in real time where there's a possibility of me being stumped for a long time and hence end up with so many videos won't be happening anymore for future contests.
However, I'll still be LPing level packs, that's not going anywhere ;) What is changing is the format I'm using for recording solutions to contest levels.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/ryEctim7oaM (https://youtu.be/ryEctim7oaM)
Quote from: IchoTolot on October 04, 2022, 06:29:40 PM
I am back again and updated the pack. :)
Welcome back, and I'm happy to hear that you had a nice in-person meetup with Simon over the weekend :)
All rightie, parts 2 and 3 showing my solutions to the R2's and R3's, respectively, are now up. I still need to record showing the intended solutions to my own contest levels, but I will wait to see if they're finally enforced for all my contest levels first. So far, R3 is the only one that seems solid. It's R1 and R2 I need to see if they're fine now.
Part 2: https://youtu.be/2J3ruNKjR3Q (https://youtu.be/2J3ruNKjR3Q)
Part 3: https://youtu.be/XIRKOG6PKMQ (https://youtu.be/XIRKOG6PKMQ)
@Armani
While watching back my video for the R3 levels just now, I found a sneaky backroute for your R3V2 :P However, it's very easy to fix by adding in a left facing OWA object on the wall ;)
edit: Ah, no, disregard the suggested fix. I forgot that OWAs are forbidden under this rule since they're not found in L2. It is the easiest fix, though, and can be used after the contest. Guess you'll have to use steel instead in the meantime :P Interestingly enough, I originally went with OWAs for my R3, but I caught myself just in the nick of time before I submitted my entry, when I remembered they're prohibited :laugh:
Uploaded my solutions and attached the replays. :)
Part 1 (rule 1-3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFhU6hhflQw
Part 2 (my levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_j-ZFQWQCI
@IchoAlready commented on your video about my solutions, but I will post it here as well. In addition, there are some remarks I need to make for R1 that I didn't for your Youtube video.
R1 - That's a backroute, mostly caused by the floating steel platform right where the entrance is. So, for V7 I modified that a bit by removing a steel block and replacing it with some of the smaller square steel blocks. Also shifted the upper left button a few pixels to the right. I don't know if this will be enough, but let's see.
Spoiler
Those two things that you weren't sure about being intended, yes, they both are. That one pixel gap where the firebox is, although maybe later on I could perhaps widened it a bit and maybe do some more layout modifications to make it more obvious that a stacker goes there. Same thing with bashing on the steel to turn, that's also intended.
However, there are also two other main tricks I intended that are missing and hence a fix is required. Again, not sure if the changes will be enough for V7, but let's see. Perhaps once the intended solution is fully enforced you'll probably like the homage I made to your United level "Victory is Inevitable" (Neutrality 7) even more ;)
Ugh, once again another backroute due to the laser :XD: It's so powerful! :evil: For V12, I simply added a water object in the pit where you shortcut the level with the unintended use of the laser.
R3 100% intended! :thumbsup: Let's say this level was inspired by both you and Armani ;) You because of the Forgotten Refinery trick, Armani because of Triple Trouble in Space, and the trick required in my level here is simply a variant of each of your guys' levels. Nevertheless, I still think this is a very meh and lame level of mine IMO :laugh:
@kaywhyn Smells like more backroutes. :evil:
Here're my new solutions to kaywhyn's rule1 and 2.
Now I think at least I found the intended solution to rule2 level :laugh:
Icho, Armani
R1 - Both are backroutes, and it's clear to me that the blockers are the main source of evilness of the backroutes. So, away they go from your skill panel at the start and are pickups for V8! As usual, this is my method of fixing backroutes as a last resort, as you both know how much I hate using pickups for that purpose because of how I think the solution will be too obvious now, but I've been proven very wrong by the both of you as you two have repeatedly told me that my level(s) are still quite difficult despite them. I was thinking of making one of the stoners a pickup as well, but I think this might be enough now? Even if the intended solution still isn't 100% enforced, I think we will at least be getting pretty close! Now I know how Icho feels when I kept backrouting his R1 so much during pre-testing :evil:
R2 - Icho's solution is once again a backroute. It never occurred to me that area would be a problem there too! :XD: So, for V13 I added left and right facing OWAs on that triangular block of terrain in the upper right area. Armani's solution is 100% intended, nice job! :thumbsup: Icho technically has the intended solution as well, although he 100% correctly described it verbally in his playthrough video. However, I'm very thankful for his backroute solutions showing me that it's not quite enforced and properly patched up yet. This will hopefully be it now!
In any case, I'm hoping I killed two levels with one big backroute proof stone with the changes, and again if not, I'm thinking we're getting close with my R1!
For Crane's update nothing changed for my solutions.
For kaywhyn I have more backroutes. :evil:
I can't seem to find your replay, @IchoTolot
Quote from: Crane on October 11, 2022, 03:56:46 PM
I can't seem to find your replay, @IchoTolot
These are still the old ones I posted earlier. Attached them again here.
Well, thankfully they're both intended! Well done!
Spoiler
The secret is to not assign a Climber or Glider for as long as possible.
@Icho
Yup, both are still backroutes to my R1 and R2, but I think they're still fixable to force the intended solution even if it's getting rather annoying and depressing for me, especially the latter. The very massive changelogs for my levels in the update topic doesn't help matters :'(
R1 - For V9, I added some small square steel blocks right where the flamethrowers near the entrance are. It should hopefully now be clear that releasing the crowd out to the left is not my intention :P I think there might still be another problematic area and so probably not all backroutes have been caught yet, but let's see.
R2 - Well, now once again the blockers have been the source of backroutes, so now for V14 away they go and are now pickups on the other side of the water pit to the right of the entrance! Heck, I may as well make everything pickups, as it seems that no matter how good the puzzles are I can't get any of my levels to work without making anything pickups :(
@IchoTolot
I think you already know, but all your solutions to my levels are intended :thumbsup:
@kaywhyn
Thanks for spotting the cheesy backroute! :XD: I probably will fix it after the contest(adding OWW as you suggested :thumbsup:)
@kaywhyn I sadly suspect more backroutes here.
@Icho
R1 - I kind of suspected that there can be some stoner abuse shenanigans near the entrance, I knew I should had shifted the entrance over :forehead: That's exactly what I did for V10: Shifted the entrance a few pixels to the right. Also added another steel block to the floating platform near the entrance. Finally, shifted the flamethrower on its steel platform at the far upper right area to the left and down some. I'm still not feeling confident that this will force the intended solution completely, but I'm really hoping it will be closer than all solutions I've seen. It still avoids some tricks I've intended completely!
R2 - Never would had thought this level would be so hard to fix up :( For V15, added another block of terrain near the exit and changed the left facing OWAs to be pointing downwards.
@kaywhyn This should be another round of backroutes.
@Icho
Well, I guess what comes around goes around. I gave you a hard time with your R1 when I pre-tested and backrouted it numerous times. Now it's the other way around, where you're giving me a hard time with both my R1 and R2 :(
R1 - Many changes here for V11: 3 of the stackers are pickups, 1 of the diggers is a pickup, and both stoners are pickups. Also added another steel block and erased a bit of it, as well as shifted the flamethrower and its steel platform on the far upper right in such a way so that its trigger area overlaps that of the erased part of the steel block.
R2 - Ugh, every part of the map is being used against me, including the huge red block of terrain where the barrel is! :XD: For V16, added right-facing OWAs on it. I guess really adding to and prettying up the level really worked against me this time. It doesn't even look as pretty anymore with all the OWAs, but as you know from your experiences, sometimes that's the way it is, when it comes to forcing the intended solution, even at the cost of aesthetics.
I really do hope this is the last time I need to fix up these two levels of mine. Backroute fixing my own levels really stresses me out :(
@kaywhyn
Sadly, I bring bad news. :'(
@Icho
:( indeed for both R1 and R2
R1 - Added another small steel block to the floating platform right by the entrance and also shifted the entrance a few more pixels to the right for V12
R2 - Changed the OWAs below the exit to point downwards instead for V17. That now hopefully covers all shenanigans you might pull off with the bombers/laser around the middle area to allow you to cheese your way to victory :crylaugh:
@ kaywhyn
R2 is still a backroute, but I could at least be somewhat close with the R1 solution.
@IchoR1 - You are correct, we're getting very close now! :thumbsup: Thank goodness, because every solution I've seen is quite far from intended, and it only seems to get farther and farther with every version :XD: Seems like the small steel block added to the floating platform near the entrance was very critical. Everything to the left of the entrance is now intended except for the sacrifice and hence that led to some skill savings. There's still some intended tricks that are missing on the right side that I haven't seen in any solution from either you or Armani. However, I might had found a way to finally enforce them. For V13, decreased the stoner pickup quantity to 1 and moved the other stoner pickup to the far right side. Also replaced two of the steel blocks in that area with a right triangle one and added a small square steel block to its bottom left corner, and finally shifted the firebox trap below several pixels to the left. I think this will finally do it, but feel free to prove me wrong, which is probably likely given your solving caliber and your uncanny ability to backroute anything thrown at you :crylaugh:
Spoiler
Finally the "Totally Stoned" trick of digging down a stoner to make a safe drop down is present! :thumbsup:
- Nice backroute there. For V18, decreased the blocker pickup quantity to 1 and moved the other two blocker pickups to the same area as the cloner pickups. Also added more right-facing OWAs on the terrain where the laser was misused. In the process, I also discovered another very bad backroute and hence added right facing OWAs to the terrain below the one with arrows facing both the left and right. Think this will finally do it but again feel free to prove me wrong :P
Finally I had some time to resolve kaywhyn's r1 ;)
The first solution is probably another huge backroute but the second solution seems promising although I have a leftover stoner. ;)
@ArmaniR1 - Oof, the first solution is indeed a very bad backroute. For V14, I made the digger a pickup in midair on the far right, as well as added another firebox trap. This added trap might not even be necessary, but by this point I'm just going to make doubly sure no more cheesy stuff can be tried in that area :P
Your second solution is indeed almost intended! :thumbsup: The only thing that isn't intended in your second replay is how you released the crowd. Same fixes I mentioned above apply for this backroute too.
Spoiler
Awesome for finding that the other three tricks I intended: Digging down a stoner to make the drop safe (just like "Totally Stoned" from United), turning fallers in midair, and using a stacker to make a splatform for the crowd! :thumbsup: Icho has already found the first one, it's the latter two that I have not seen in any solution by either you or him until now ;) Now only one more (possibly another one on the far right as well) which concerns the release of the crowd needs to be found and you'll have it. This I mentioned that I don't exactly know if it's intended from an Uncharted level of yours, but rather I discovered it while resolving it. I thought it was so cool that I had to include it in this level too :laugh: Let's see if you can find it :)
Since you now manage to be the closest to the intended solution for R1 thus far, I think you have definitely seen parts of the solution resembling that of Neutrality 7 - Victory Is Inevitable from United, which is what the level title is paying homage to. The biggest reason for my tribute to that United level o Icho's is because of how it was my first major roadblock of the pack. I got stuck so bad that I ended up taking a break from playing the pack for about 3-4 weeks before I came back to it and got myself unstuck after several more unsuccessful attempts.
You'll probably likely agree with my assessment that this level is my most difficult I have made up to this point in my Lemmings level designing career, mostly due to how the intended solution is very well-hidden and the somewhat obscure tricks needed, most notably digging down a stoner to make a safe drop and turning fallers in midair, though you used this in your R1 of LDC #22.
I think we finally made it 8-)
@ArmaniAnd that is 100% intended! Great job for being the first to find it to what I assess to be my most difficult level I have ever made thus far :thumbsup:
Spoiler
The part where you released two more climbers on the left, one to drop in the water, the other to dig, yours is a slight variation on how I did it. In my solution, I basically timed the second climber in such a way so that he still lands on a tiny bit of the stoner terrain that remains while the digger is still destroying it and hence falls safely to the steel platform below without splatting. However, the way the other one falls while over water is fine. I thought about blocking that, but not only will the level just be messy in appearance, it will also destroy the trick entirely, as then he'll just land on a steel platform higher than where he'll eventually land where the builder goes left over the gap, which doesn't quite produce the same effect IMO. Therefore, I'm just going to let it be and allow it. Besides, me being all nitpicky over just that? It's not worth it :laugh:
The main reasons why it's a very hard level: Digging down a stoner to make a drop safe, turning fallers in midair, and the extremely obscure trick of blocking and then stoning him to remove the blocker field to release the crowd, all tricks which are very obscure. The level goes even further than that: using a stacker to make a splatform, building a staircase and then digging a part of it away so that the climber does not doom himself to the flamethrower above, and finally bashing on steel to turn around. All of these in one level make for an extremely difficult level IMO.
Really besides enforcing the correct constructive skill usage on the left side, it was also very hard to force that the player must send the climber that hits the button in the upper left over to the top right side to prepare the platform for the swimmer to shimmy over. In all solutions before the intended one, you and Icho kept sending a non-climber and therefore there was no need to keep him safe when he turns back to the far right side after platforming and stop him from getting into danger. Also blocking the use of a builder to make a splatform was very hard. However, my fear of the builders being used to backroute the level were definitely founded here, as the player is given double the amount of platformers, 8 and 4, respectively. That right there told me in my mind, I have a feeling my R1, while being very hard, will also be the most troublesome to fix as a result due to how the builder is very powerful. In all honesty, I probably could had removed 1 builder and had the intended solution use a platformer in the top left/middle area instead and hence the level probably wouldn't be as backrouteable, but well, I just felt the building to be the better one for the overall effect/feel of the level :laugh:
Even then, the level is also very difficult due to how it's not very obvious whether to use a platformer or a builder for some of the gaps. It might seem that you can cheese the level by using two builders when just 1 platformer suffices to get over the gap (indeed, that's what happened a lot in the replays to earlier versions of the level from you and Icho), but then you'll likely not have the necessary constructive skill for a later part of the level. Thus, not being certain which constructive skill to use also makes the level hard.
Finally, perhaps the time limit isn't even needed anymore, but in earlier versions, it was definitely possible to maybe do the right side first and then cross over to the left to do the rest of the level without multitasking, and so to enforce the multitasking, that's why there's now a time limit. Otherwise, it's possible to just do one side at a time without sending multiple workers. Even then, I'll just keep it in for fear that the level will be majorly broken again without it, as the sense of urgency certainly "forces" a lot of the skill assignments in the level.
Thanks so much for persevering in resolving and all the replays! :thumbsup:
@Armani
R1 - Thank you so much for showing me a timing heavy solution on Discord that spared you a few skills after you had found the intended solution :thumbsup: I originally said that it was an acceptable challenge solution, but I changed my mind after I found out that one of the tricks I intended would not be required anymore with one of the leftover skills. Thus, I decided to release a fix, and I managed to come up with a far better fix than what I was thinking of on Discord. For V15, the steel platform where the button is in the upper right area has some changes: Added a vertical steel block on the far right, two more steel blocks on the left, and added a firebox trap to the left of the button. Also shifted the button over a few pixels to the left, and then finally shifted down the platform several pixels. So, I apologize for breaking your replay of the intended solution. However, you already have the intended solution from V14, and so you don't need to send me your new replay for V15, only if you found another solution that needs my attention that I wasn't aware of. All you have to do here is reassign two of the skills in the same places if you wish once the lemming arrives, as the timing will change a bit but not significantly to impact the intended solution heavily ;)
@kaywhyn
I think R1 is intended now.
But, let's say all the pickups and steelblocks have turned quite a few parts of the level "on rails" aka it is clear what needs to be done because terrain + pick-ups throw out all (or most) other possibilities.
The most prominent example here is the new top right section:
Spoiler
- Because of the steelblock at the button it is pre-determined you need one of the other climbers here and top left is the obvious candidate and that therefore also pre determines the top left corner pretty much.
- Because of the digger pick-up and the iron slope for the lower lem the way to turn around the top climber multiple times is clear.
- Because of the stoner pick-up it is clear a lemming has to go into the flamer path with no exit and there is no way out from there (even digging down at the platform isn't viable anymore). So the only thing he can do there is block.
As a result entropy, and therefore difficulty have dropped quite a bit. ---
That does not mean I dislike the level now! I still think it is a good one! :thumbsup:
The only thing that makes me think that it could maybe be another backroute is that I do not see the resemblance of the solution to neutrality 7 yet. Do I miss something here? ???
R2 should be a another backroute sadly.
@IchoR1 - That is 100% intended. Well done! :thumbsup:
Quote from: IchoTolot on October 17, 2022, 05:49:56 PM
@kaywhyn
I think R1 is intended now.
But, let's say all the pickups and steelblocks have turned quite a few parts of the level "on rails" aka it is clear what needs to be done because terrain + pick-ups throw out all (or most) other possibilities.
The most prominent example here is the new top right section:
Spoiler
- Because of the steelblock at the button it is pre-determined you need one of the other climbers here and top left is the obvious candidate and that therefore also pre determines the top left corner pretty much.
- Because of the digger pick-up and the iron slope for the lower lem the way to turn around the top climber multiple times is clear.
- Because of the stoner pick-up it is clear a lemming has to go into the flamer path with no exit and there is no way out from there (even digging down at the platform isn't viable anymore). So the only thing he can do there is block.
As a result entropy, and therefore difficulty have dropped quite a bit. --- That does not mean I dislike the level now! I still think it is a good one! :thumbsup:
That's a good point, I didn't think about the solution being a bit more obvious the way it currently is. I think at some point I had both of the stoners be the same pickup rather than separate ones, but that probably still won't increase the difficulty significantly. Then again, I think to someone like you the difficulty wouldn't be as high because you're very familiar with the tricks, but to many others it will be a very hard level because of the many tricks needed. Some I consider quite obscure.
Spoiler
For example, blocking and then stoning him to remove the blocker field that's holding back the others to release them. I actually discovered this when I was resolving Aquarius 10 of Uncharted. As Armani has told me last night on Discord, it's not required on that level, but I thought it was so cool that I wanted to make a level that requires it ;)
Also, regarding that trick, I was thinking it was possible to place the blocker the way you did. In my solution, I use the last lemming going to the right going underneath the staircase to block so that everyone is contained on the right side but those coming from the left can still merge with the crowd on the right side and thus allow the climber to still build out to the right. In any case, it doesn't matter, as the important thing is stoning the blocker to release the crowd trick is present in the solution :thumbsup:
Then there's the others too: Totally Stoned trick of digging down a stoner to make a safe drop, turning fallers in midair with a blocker, and finally using a stacker to make a splatform, as well as digging out the builder staircase to stop the climber from getting into danger. Also I guess bashing into the steel to turn around can be considered one
Sadly, the new upper right section is needed due to a timing heavy solution Armani showed me on Discord last night that would spare you a few skills. Originally, I was going to accept that as an alternative challenge solution, but I later discovered that one of the leftover skills would make an obscure trick I intended not required anymore and therefore a fix was needed :( This to me was the easiest way to fix the backroute without making anything else look too out of place :P
Happy to hear that you enjoyed the level! :thumbsup: I hope I did your tileset justice here, even though in its current state it doesn't look that great anymore IMO with all the fire traps everywhere but they were necessary to block all those backroutes sadly. I really wanted to include your duneworm trap in some way just so it at least makes an appearance in a level of mine, but sadly I couldn't think of a way to without it looking too out of place. However, I just thought about how it could, and that is where the masher trap is. It still won't change the intended solution in any way, it'll just simply be another obstacle to get by. Even then, the level's already been updated so many times, so I probably won't update it just for that :laugh: I'll think about it, though, along with possibly changing up some of the pickup locations.
Quote
The only thing that makes me think that it could maybe be another backroute is that I do not see the resemblance of the solution to neutrality 7 yet. Do I miss something here? ???
Let's say not the overall solution itself resembles that of your United level, but rather they share some elements. For example, both have buttons and hence they're hunt the buttons to push and unlock the exit type levels. Another is they both are 99RR, although with mine the crowd isn't in any danger right away. Yet another is
Spoiler
- Multiple workers required, 3, similar to what your level needs. They also all take separate paths to do work in a different part of the level. The biggest difference is that mine I would say is on the much harder side because in contrast to your level, which gives you a floater and a glider, in my level you don't have either one! The only athletic skills you're given are climbers and a swimmer, the latter which is another thing shared with your level as it too gives a swimmer.
=> Because I didn't think to do what I described in the spoiler, I was stuck on Neutrality 7 for a long time and hence it was my first major roadblock of the pack. This therefore lead to me to make a tribute to that United level of yours :) The big difference is that mine is far harder IMO due to the many tricks required, at least when the intended solution is enforced.
R2 - :( For V19, changed the OWAs on the thin pieces in the upper middle area to downward ones. I know they're hard to make out, but hopefully in the area it does cover the direction of the arrows can be discerned. Somehow I feel the area can still be brute forced to cheese the level, but let's give it a try. In any case, it does stop your backroute you showed me ;)
@kaywhyn
That should still be a backroute for R2.
@Icho
V20 :'( That might be a record, but I don't know for sure. Just added a barrel with downward OWAs on it at the top of the climb where you cheesed the level. I originally thought of putting in steel in the mix with the OWAs where you used some bomber shenanigans, but sadly the steel can be abused there too. Also they don't go onto the terrain too well due to the size on slope terrain and cannot cover all of the outer edge/slope without disrupting and ruining the intended solution. Please tell me the backroute fixing nightmare for this level is over *fingers crossed* :laugh:
@kaywhyn
No, still a backroute.
@Icho
R2 - I give up, you win. Just playing :laugh: No, I have one more idea for a fix I made to the level which might just do it now. For V21, the climber is now a pickup, and due to the location of it, I have to move the cloner and blocker pickups in order for the intended solution to still work. I had realized in earlier versions that the climber skill is very problematic here, so why I didn't make it a pickup until now is way beyond me. I think it was simply due to every skill I provide for the skillset in this level overshadowing it because of how they been abused to cheese the level and hence the climber went completely over my head :XD: Also added some more steel around the middle area.
In addition, I made some terrain modifications to the floating brick platform around the middle left area in order to reduce the frustration in executing the solution. Personally, I'm not a fan of extremely excessive and repeated assignments of the same skill, as I tend to find this very annoying and no fun, and since I don't want a player to constantly rewind to readjust the timing and assignment of the jumpers while waiting for the main worker to get where he needs to, I decided to help out the player in this regard. Yes, the timing can still be somewhat tight, but I did my best here to make sure it's not super tight, and luckily there's still plenty of leeway. There are ways to make it easier anyway, and hence for this reason I might even show off 2 variations of doing that area of solving the level when I go over my own levels on video.
@kaywhyn
I think this is quite a bit closer now.
I've decided to release an update for
all 3 2 of my entries.
For R1, I feel extremely bad for taking back my word, but I decided to be picky and reinforce one tiny thing at the start. For V16, I've added some steel blocks which will unfortunately break both Icho's and Armani's replays of the intended solution, but here you both just need to readjust the assignment of the 4th climber. Everything else can stay the same. Yes, I know it's very nit-picky of me, but honestly I went into the editor and saw that it wasn't as big of a visual mess as I thought it would be when I put them in.edit: R1 has been reverted to V15 per Icho's feedback. Thanks! Don't know why I thought the changes was a good idea on my end :-[
For R3, I simply added water to fill up the bottomless void on the far left, just to pretty up the level. Now that looks better! :D Icho's and Armani's replays are unaffected and hence still work ;)
@IchoR2 - Now this is 99% intended, with the only thing wrong being the final blocker assignment. Ah, didn't account that you can swap the final blocker assignment with either lemming. There were several easy options for me here, but interestingly enough still took me a while to decide on something. For example, I thought about using a ketchup wheel trap there, and similarly with using multiple masher traps near the exit, but something about these didn't feel/look right to me. I also thought about simply putting another barrel at the top. Eventually, I decided to use a more radical, albeit unnecessary, fix. I came up with terrain modification in the middle right area. For V22, here, left two 1-pixel gaps.
Spoiler
I honestly wanted to preserve this red herring, as there were some others which unfortunately needed to be eliminated due to some earlier fixes already :( I'm certain I extensively tested every possible pixel assignment in this area here and none worked, so really, it looks like it's definitely possible but isn't. However, once again feel free to prove me wrong, as it's possible I might had missed one or a few.
@kaywhyn
Resolved. I think R2 is intended now.
The change in R1 just added a bit of (in my opinion) uneeded timing and out of place looking steelblocks. The solution does not really change critically - so I personally would just take out those blocks again, remove that extra timing element and rather have a better looking level.
But again personal opinion here, if that timing part is important to you leave the blocks in (or maybe resort to a flamer).
@IchoR2 - Finally, that's 100% intended. Great job! :thumbsup: Never knew this level, which isn't as involved as my other 2 entries, would be the most problematic to fix up :XD: Then again, you're kind of the king of solving and backrouting other people's levels :P
Quote from: IchoTolot on October 20, 2022, 07:33:07 PM
The change in R1 just added a bit of (in my opinion) uneeded timing and out of place looking steelblocks. The solution does not really change critically - so I personally would just take out those blocks again, remove that extra timing element and rather have a better looking level.
But again personal opinion here, if that timing part is important to you leave the blocks in (or maybe resort to a flamer).
Good points, thanks! ;) Per your feedback, I decided to revert the change and reupload V15 of my R1. See the update topic for that. As mentioned, that was extremely nitpicky of me, I'm not sure why I thought that was a good idea :-[
Replays attached for the new levels. In general, these were somewhat decent for being open-ended levels for the most part, save for R2, which is the most restrictive of the new levels, but still lenient enough that it can still be solved in any way the player wishes. However, let's say that there's still a lot of room for improvement here!.
R1 - I honestly don't see the point of the talismans here, as you can easily get all of them in the same solution.They don't really add much to warrant being in the level, let alone there being so many different solutions. For example, solving without the swimmer one. If you don't want the player solving the level with it, just get rid of the swimmer skill! That achieves the exact same thing! Also, why is solving without a swimmer and solving under 2 minutes both on two separate talismans and then both are requirements on the third one? You have a third talisman that requires both of those individual requirements, along with the new, additional requirement of saving everyone. Meaning, the third silver talisman makes the two individual bronze ones redundant. Just get rid of those two bronze talismans and just have the silver one that combines all 3 together. Even then, I would just get rid of the talismans altogether, as already mentioned they don't really add much for the level.
Also, unnecessary timer - cull.
R2 - Here, I don't understand why the walker pickups are past the exit. You can easily solve the level without them :P However, if you set the save requirement high enough then they will absolutely be needed, so this can easily be fixed.
R3 - Invalid entry! There are two things in the level that violate the ruleset, the neutral hatch and pickups. The reason being that both of these are not found in the game L2. Therefore, you will need to find some other way that doesn't use these two, although the neutral hatch can easily be solved by either taking it out or just making it a regular lemming hatch.
Also forgot to mention that the pre-text is absolutely unnecessary here and can be taken out. Now, if this was for a level pack, then sure, it's perfectly fine, but for a contest entry, no need for it, especially if it's a hint like the text starts with.
Once again, but especially the case here: Extremely unnecessary timer that can be omitted
Thanks for playing and for your feedback kaywhyn! You found a way to save a few more lemmings and/or skills then I thought were possible but you didn't backroute anything.
R1 - Yeah that's fair about the talismans tbh and I'll remove the timer.
R2 - The walker pickups are because my intial solution when before I entered the level required you to save the blocker at the end to get enough lemmings saved. I think I should keep them in though in case you wanted to save the blocker at the end for fun to get a higher number of lemmings saved or still used my solution.
R3 - I have the hint because using a shimmer to stop a builder and/or blocker is a trick that can be used in that level but I can take it out if you think it's unnecessary. I'll also take the timer out. The skill pickups I can easily work out as the level still works without them pretty well but if the neutral hatch at the bottom was turned into a regular lemming hatch it would trivialise the whole level so I'll have to think about how to make that one a valid entry.
By the way how do I remove attachments from an old post?
EDIT: nvm I figured it out.
Okay I've played around with Rule 3 and I've got it so it'll be a valid entry and took your feedback on board. The level does still have a time limit, but due to the other changes I made it's now necessary. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Silken Healer on October 22, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
I have the hint because using a shimmer to stop a builder and/or blocker is a trick that can be used in that level but I can take it out if you think it's unnecessary.
First part with the builder is correct, however, that's not right with the blocker, as you cannot assign a shimmier to a blocker. And yes, the hint is not needed. It's fine to include it for the level if it was for, say, a level pack and to help out the less experienced players if they were playing the pack, but for a contest entry it's out of place. Besides, one can easily check if it works by selecting the shimmier skill and then assign it to a builder/platformer to see if it's possible or not. You could always place it back after the contest anyway, especially if you decide to put the level in a future level pack later on.
Quote
By the way how do I remove attachments from an old post?
EDIT: nvm I figured it out.
In the future, please observe this for updates, which I quote from the update topic:
QuotePlease follow these rules for updates:
1. When posting a new updated version of a level, remove any old updated versions of that level --> Have all your recent updates stored in 1 post! I will delete such old posts eventually if the author doesn't; so don't store any important information in them.
2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post. You may, however, post updates to multiple entries (if you have more than one) in the same post.
In my new version of the I removed the text at the start level doesn't even have shimmers anymore, so it's all good :). Also I was already totally aware of that rule, that's why I was asking how to remove old attachments.
No, you need to make a completely new post whenever you release an update. Meaning, in the future, delete the post which will remove all attachments as well, whenever you release an update to any of your levels. That's why it says "don't just edit your post" via the modify feature :P What I like to do whenever I update my level(s) is click modify, select all of the text and copy, remove my post, then write a new post and paste everything from the old post into it. That's just my personal style whenever I post updates, you of course don't have to do it the way I do :P
Anyway, here's my new solution for R3. It's good, but I'm nearly 100% certain that Icho, as pretty much most of the members of this community, would agree with me here that the timer can be removed. Now, I don't mind time limits myself, but I will have to tend with the general consensus here that there's really no reason for it at all in this level. All you succeeded in doing here is put in a very unnecessarily tight timer whose only purpose here is force the player to release the crowd early so that you finish on time, resulting in frustration depending on the player. This right here is not a good reason for a time limit TBH. Timers should generally be avoided unless it's for backroute prevention or is part of the puzzle. Here, it doesn't do either of that ;)
Ahh, I see what you mean now about the updating rule. Thanks.
Also in my inital solution, I lazered too close to the vase making a gap in the wall so I thought you'd have to do the top stacker as close to the edge as possible and get the bridge over the water at the bottom be built as soon as possible as the slider would hit that bridge but you found away not to do that. I don't really consider that a backroute though that's just an extra trick to make the level a bit easier.
Also thanks for playing and your feedback on my level. Would a timer be okay if it still let you release the crowd after the route is done because I want the player to do everything straight away, it is called "Race To Reach The Bottom" afterall :P. Either way I'll update my level to either increase or remove the time limit.
Quote from: Silken Healer on October 22, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Would a timer be okay if it still let you release the crowd after the route is done because I want the player to do everything straight away, it is called "Race To Reach The Bottom" afterall :P. Either way I'll update my level to either increase or remove the time limit.
I would still cull the timer. The main reason I would put one in is if I wanted to prevent other unwanted alternative routes (so called "backroutes"), but currently I don't see any other way through the level that would differ drastically from the main route. So, I wouldn't bother putting in a timer and would just remove it.
edit: Just saw that you did :thumbsup:
Oh okay then, I'll just make the timer infinte in that case. Thanks kaywhyn.
Silken's levels are now included in the pack! :)
And I also attached my solutions to the new levels here.
Forgot to mention, but the download link for the contest collection pack doesn't work ??? Also reuploaded V15 of R1 per your feedback ;)
Thanks for playing Icho, all well done intentional solutions. :)
I wasn't aware of your exact "Jumping Near The Water" solution, but it was still 100% intentional.
As mentioned with kaywhyn, I intended for the player to blow up the entire wall on "Blow Up The Wall!" and bash the wall near the exit but I don't consider that a backroute, just an extra trick to save an extra lemming so well done :).
Quote from: kaywhyn on October 22, 2022, 01:31:19 PM
Forgot to mention, but the download link for the contest collection pack doesn't work ??? Also reuploaded V15 of R1 per your feedback ;)
Link should work again.
I got your update as well. Although if we would be strict this is V17 even if you just undid the last update.
Quote from: IchoTolot on October 22, 2022, 04:22:22 PM
I got your update as well. Although if we would be strict this is V17 even if you just undid the last update.
True, I was wondering if I should had made it V17, but since it's just V15 again, I figured a reupload of a previous version wouldn't hurt, especially since it's already included in the level folder and it's just a quick readjustment of the level name in the levels.nxmi file anyway :P
Uploaded an update for R1 not only so there's an actual V17 now but because I wanted to tidy up some stuff on the upper right area. Here, I reverted the positions of the flamethrower on its steel block from an earlier version near where the stoner pickup is, as well as got rid of the eraser steel piece and lined up the steel pieces and put a small square steel block in its place. That area looks slightly better, but I fear I'm taking a huge risk here, as this might had reopened a backroute. However, honestly I played with every possibility in my head and can't seem to get a working backroute out of it. In any case, the intended solution replays of Armani's and Icho's don't break here
Crane's R2 resolved. Admittedly, I already saw Icho's video on the solution after I had backrouted it when I cheesed it with the way I used the miner from several weeks ago, so I already knew what was intended just from that. To be fair, I wasn't sure if Crane was going to fix my backroute, as it was quite some time before he did. In any case, there are two solutions attached, one for each of the talismans. I just barely got the time attack one, as according to the record time on the post-results screen I got it with only .06 seconds to spare despite the timer showing 0:50 itself in level.
I also finally got around to recording the video on the intended solutions to my own contest levels
edit: Removed the link and reposted in my most recent post a few posts below so that the links for this and the other video are in the same post together.
Finally, before the end of the playing phase and the start of the voting phase, I have attached the solutions to my own levels in case anyone is curious about what I intended for them. There are two solutions for my R2, although really there are multiple ways to do the jumping in the level, so these aren't the only way to get it solved. However, the intended route and all other skill assignments besides the jumpers in the end should be the same.
And the last part for my Youtube series on this contest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhd4lJa10Q
Here I go through the late entries and updated levels.
Will open the voting phase soon. :)
One more video from me. This one is the new levels and resolving of updated levels and showing the new solutions.
Part 4: https://youtu.be/bGi4y51MyZY (https://youtu.be/bGi4y51MyZY)
As I intend for the video on my levels to be the final one despite recording these in reverse order, I made a little change in the level titles so that the video a few posts up is Part 5, which I will repost here instead and remove the link in the other post.
Part 5 - Intended solutions to my contest levels: https://youtu.be/EY3gyvqQl3k (https://youtu.be/EY3gyvqQl3k)
I just got the picture links and I will probably ready up the voting topic on Friday. Why friday?
Because I will be mostly away at the weekend and this way the round ends on monday, so there should be no delay in setting up the next round. ;)