Lemmings Forums

Hello,
level rankings are based on 1) % of saved Lemmings, 2) number of skills used, and then 3) the time used for completing the level.
About the 2) "number of skills used", should "Nuke" be taken in account? (because one may use "Nuke" instead of "Bomber(s)" for handling last blocker(s)). What do you think about that?

No -- the nuke is primarily a shortcut to end a level without waiting for time to run out, and should be treated as such.

Perfect! Thanks

I advise to compute these scores until when the last lemming is saved. Anything afterwards should not count against the player. Otherwise, you discourage fast-forwarding and impose a guessing game of when to nuke for the shortest total time.

There are a few levels where nuking is part of the solution. The nuke is not considered a skill for these traditionally.

-- Simon

Nuke is a "I quit button" so no and levels that uses it as a solution, are just taking advantage that it's a slow quit button that needs to blow up every Lemmings to work. I don't like how the nuke works in the old Lemmings. You can't beat a level without blowing up the blockers. The PSP Lemmings just ends it. The nuke is still there when you quit the level.

I advise to compute these scores until when the last lemming is saved. Anything afterwards should not count against the player. Otherwise, you discourage fast-forwarding and impose a guessing game of when to nuke for the shortest total time.

Do you mean last lemming saved, or last lemming required? Lix takes the former, but the latter would make more sense in terms of completing the level.

Quote from: Simon on 2014-09-07 09:04:08

I advise to compute these scores until when the last lemming is saved. Anything afterwards should not count against the player. Otherwise, you discourage fast-forwarding and impose a guessing game of when to nuke for the shortest total time.

Do you mean last lemming saved, or last lemming required? Lix takes the former, but the latter would make more sense in terms of completing the level.

I am thinking of last lemming saved.

We value solutions higher if more lemmings are saved, only comparing skill count if solutions have equal save count, and comparing times only if lemmings and skills are equal. The ranking should reflect this traditional valuation.

Minimizing skills or time is challenge material or needs special announcement that a solution strives for this.

-- Simon

nuking is never part of the solution. just press escape instead.  it is an optional display of pyrotechnics.

nuking is never part of the solution. just press escape instead.  it is an optional display of pyrotechnics.

Except in the console ports, of course.

nuking is never part of the solution. just press escape instead.  it is an optional display of pyrotechnics.

There's one level in H94 that would disagree with your claim...
As well as many challenge solutions and fan-made levels.

How does that even... (goes and looks up the level)

i stand corrected. wow. what an incredibly stupid trick.  As far as I'm concerned this is a glitch.

(and god that captcha is annoying...  had to request 5 new images.)

It's not a glitch. After all, it's just a one-off trick that was only there to amaze lemmings players whilst playing the game.

I would have made the nuke button disable the exit had i programmed the game.

so it seems it that case, it should be counted as a skill, but only if it works when escape doesn't.

(I vaguely recall the amiga original doesn't let you abort and makes you click the nuke button, but every other version in existence i've played, including SNES (select+start) has a way to rapid abort instead of nuking.)

Master System version has no other way. And no, there's nothing glitchy about it. Nuke just assigns a bomber to every lemming; bombers can still exit while counting down, so it's the expected behavior.

Actually, i think it IS a glitch that counting bombers can exit the level, as a nuke solution is the only time it's ever required (feel free to prove me wrong if you can).

There's one level in H94 that would disagree with your claim...

Oh man, I remember having a chuckle at that one when I got to it.

(I vaguely recall the amiga original doesn't let you abort and makes you click the nuke button, but every other version in existence i've played, including SNES (select+start) has a way to rapid abort instead of nuking.)

The Amiga original (and, I assume, the later one-disk pack-in edition of same) also lets you press Escape to circumvent the need for nuking. Saves a lot of time if you don't especially want to sit through it.

Actually, i think it IS a glitch that counting bombers can exit the level, as a nuke solution is the only time it's ever required (feel free to prove me wrong if you can).

A counting bomber, except for the counter over his head, behaves in every way like a normal lemming - he can fall and splat, you can assign skills to him, etc. By extension, there is no reason to think that exiting would be the one exception to this.

The Amiga original (and, I assume, the later one-disk pack-in edition of same) also lets you press Escape to circumvent the need for nuking. Saves a lot of time if you don't especially want to sit through it.

seems like i had bad information.

Anyway, the lemming gods have spoken. because it is actually required to solve certain levels, the nuke button is in fact a skill. when it's not required for solving you can press escape itself, which is not one.

I would disagree that it's a skill. It's a mechanic under the player's control, similar to the release rate, which use of is also required for certain levels (aside from levels where you simply have to put it to 99 at the right time, the Havoc level "Flow Control" makes more extensive use of it).

A good way to think of it:  a skill is something you command a single specific lemming to perform.  Thus things like changing the release rate clearly does not fit that definition, even when you are making use of it in a critical way in solving the level.  Nuke is a little funky partly because the end result is equivalent to (except for consuming the skills count) assigning bombers one-by-one to all the lemmings still alive.  I'd still argue that since it's not a specific command directed to a specific lemming, it is not a skill.  And in practice it indeed is almost never used for anything other than ending the level early, unsurprising given how little control you have over it, and how it affects every lemming still alive and significantly shortening how much longer they can still be alive.  I'm personally fine with not counting nuke in the ranking even in the rare case you are actually using it as part of the solution--if you're clever enough to actually manage to take advantage of it for actual solution purposes, you deserve the free bonus on your rank by not counting the use of nuke.

I can think of no level where nuke is an improvement and not a requirement.

On a version of lemmings which scores points, does nuke score 1000 points like any other skill assigned? if so it's a skill.

The SNES version is the only known version that does scoring and it does not score the use of nuking.