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Off-Topic Boards => Forum Games => Topic started by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 01:33:33 AM

Title: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 01:33:33 AM
Let's play Zendo via forum!

Look near the end of this thread for the game in progress.

Rules of Forum Zendo

Guess the secret rule about which koans have the buddha nature.

A koan is a nonempty finite string of letters A-Z. At the start of the game, the master thinks of a secret rule, then posts a white koan (that has the buddha nature) and a black koan (that doesn't have the buddha nature).

To play,


The master will mark everybody's koans white or black in public. This gives everybody new information on what the secret rule might be. To answer your rule guesses, the master will post a counterexample koan, i.e., a koan that is marked differently according to your rule guess and the master's actual rule.

There are no turns. Play as often as you like. Don't wait for the master to post, you can post immediately after other players, or even after yourself. You can join running games on the fly!

To win, guess the rule correctly.

Finer details of rules

The secret rule defines a subset of the koanspace. The koanspace is the set of nonempty finite strings over the alphabet A-Z. The secret rule cannot depend on post number, poster name, what other koans have been posted, etc. It may depend on outside knowledge, such as level names, as long as an equivalent rule could be defined without outside knowledge: "A koan has the buddha nature iff it is one of the following finite list: JUSTDIG, ONLYFLOATERSMAYSURVIVETHIS, [...,] RENDEZVOUSATTHEMOUNTAIN."

To win, your guessed rule must be functionally equivalent to the master's secret rule. Rules are functionally equivalent iff for each koan, both rules mark it the same, i.e., the master cannot show you a counterexample. Your guess doesn't have to match the master's exact wording of the rule.

There is no hard limit on how many koans you can test at once.

The master, however, may reject koans at his personal discretion. For example, it would be outside the spirit of the game if a player opened every round with the same stock list of 1,000 koans.

See Also


Forum Zendo is inspired by the tabletop game Zendo:


-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 01:37:25 AM
New game of Zendo

Initial white koan: LEMMINGS (this follows the secret rule)
Initial black koan: CHEAPO (this doesn't follow the rule)

Post more koans or guesses about the rule.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 01:49:20 AM
Guesses based on likely not quite right logic:

DIGGER (guessing white)
LIX (guessing black)
PSYGNOSIS (...?)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 01:53:27 AM
DIGGER white! (guessing white, correct intuition)
LIX black! (guessing black, even more so)
PSYGNOSIS white!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 02:06:52 AM
Rule get (confirmed on IRC):

The string has the Buddha nature iff it has two or more of the same character.

Next round:

The string INSANE gets a white token (follows the rule)
The string STEVE gets a black token (does not follow the rule)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 02:11:20 AM
ZSTEVE
ZZSTEVE
INSANZ
INSAZZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 02:12:47 AM
Quote from: Simon on 2014-08-24 20:11:20
ZSTEVE
ZZSTEVE
INSANZ
INSAZZ

-- Simon

All receive black tokens (do not follow the rule).
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 02:16:39 AM
A
INSANEINSANE
ZINSANEZ
YISTHEREATREE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 02:21:11 AM
Quote from: Simon on 2014-08-24 20:16:39
A
INSANEINSANE
ZINSANEZ
YISTHEREATREE

-- Simon

A and INSANEINSANE get a white token, as they follow the rule. ZINSANEZ and YISTHEREATREE get black tokens and do not follow this rule.

I suspect you probably know what the rule could be from your guesses.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 02:25:17 AM
A koan has the buddha nature iff the first letter is a vowel (AEIOU) and the last letter is a vovel.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 02:29:53 AM
Quote from: Simon on 2014-08-24 20:25:17
A koan has the buddha nature iff the first letter is a vowel (AEIOU) and the last letter is a vovel.

-- Simon

This is not a correct guess. INEXPLICABLE follows this rule but gets a black marker, as it doesn't have the Buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 02:46:32 AM
Here's some more koans, wild shots into the blue, maybe enticing others to join!

AEI
AEIOU
IMEMBLICABLE
ASIMPLEONE
IVERYLONGVERYLONGE
TESTTESTAEI
TESTTESTAEIO
TESTTESTAEIOU

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: chaos_defrost on August 25, 2014, 02:53:27 AM
AEI and AEIOU have the Buddha nature and get a white token.
IMEMBLICABLE, ASIMPLEONE, and IVERYLONGVERYLONGE do not and get a black token.

EDIT: TESTTESTAEI does not have the Buddha nature (black/wrong) but TESTTESTAEIO and TESTTESTAEIOU do (white/right).
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 03:02:26 AM
AKHTBN iff it consists of 50 % vowels (AEIOU) or more.

This was confirmed in IRC by Steve, so I offer anyone to master now. :-)

YISTHEREATREE was posted only with the start-vowel-end-vowel rule in mind, testing whether Y would be a vowel for that, and then it worked just as well towards the new rule without intention.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 25, 2014, 08:59:07 AM
New game of Zendo

Initial white koan: SIMON (this follows the secret rule)
Initial black koan: GEOO (this doesn't follow the rule)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on August 25, 2014, 11:38:43 AM
Let's continue the koan trend :P

RAMON
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 25, 2014, 12:14:28 PM
SIMOON
GEON
CCX

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 25, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
IMONS
S
I
M
O
N

==================

In general, what (if any) are the restrictions on what the secret rule may be based on?  For example I assume given the exact same koan (ie. the arrangement and choice of letters) , its Buddha nature is constant regardless of, for example, the number of posts that have transpired?  Can the secret rule be based on "outside knowledge" like "appear in the title of a level in Lemmings" or similar?  etc.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 25, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
RAMON - black
SIMOON - white
GEON - black
CCX - white
IMONS - white
S - white
I - white
M - white
O - white
N - white
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 26, 2014, 01:22:15 AM
MON
OON
ON
GOON
E
EON

ccexplore: The rule defines a subset of the koanspace. The koanspace is the set of nonempty finite strings over the alphabet A-Z, so it cannot depend on post number, poster name, etc. It may depend on certain outside knowledge, such as level names, as long as an equivalent rule could be defined without it: "AKHTBN iff it is one of the following finite list: JUSTDIG, ONLYFLOATERSMAYSURVIVETHIS, [...,] RENDEZVOUSATTHEMOUNTAIN."

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 26, 2014, 10:38:36 AM
MON - white
OON - white
ON - white
GOON - black
E - white
EON - white
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 26, 2014, 07:37:33 PM
ACEFHIKLMNOSTVWXYZ
J
U
RIMON
SAMON
NOOG
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 26, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
Apologies for not being up on the rules but as mentioned I'm super busy.

Is the rule based on something like consonant/vowel/consonant/vowel. ?
Y
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 26, 2014, 10:29:53 PM
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-08-26 13:37:33
ACEFHIKLMNOSTVWXYZ

Actually on 2nd thought, given my current guesses, I'm afraid I have to ask to also include each individual letter in the above string as a guess as well.  So my list of guesses now include "A", "C", "E", "F", etc. in addition to what I posted before.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 26, 2014, 10:41:03 PM
ACEFHIKLMNOSTVWXYZ - black
J - black
U - white
RIMON - black
SAMON - white
NOOG - black
A, C, E, H, I, K, M, N, O, S, T, V, W, X, Y, Z - white
F, L - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on August 26, 2014, 11:54:15 PM
I'm assuming "R" will be black?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 27, 2014, 12:43:15 AM
Okay, let me shoot for guessing the rule (and if that fails, back to finishing the individual single letters ;P):

AKHTBN iff each letter written in uppercase exhibits either flip or rotational symmetry.  More directly, iff none of the letters are members of the set {F, G, J, L, P, Q, R}.

[letters exhibiting flip symmetry with vertical axis:  A, H, I, M, O, T, U, V, W, X, Y
 letters exhibiting flip symmetry with horizontal axis: B, C, D, E, H, I, K, O, X
 letters exhibiting rotational symmetry: H, I, N, O, S, X, Z]

[in case people are curious:  my initial guess (disproven with F and L) was forbidding letters written in uppercase that contains both straight as well as curved parts, though already that leaves J and U somewhat ambiguous.  Expanding guess to individual letters was needed to see if it only matters that the forbidden letter is the first letter in the word (disproven with NOOG).]
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 28, 2014, 03:07:48 AM
On Simon's suggestion, we'll start a new round w/o waiting for geoo's response.  If my guess for geoo's rule proved to be wrong we will pause this new round and go back to geoo's.  Or who knows, maybe this round will be over before geoo resurfaces (esp as Simon suggest to err on the easier side...)

Initial white koan: WHITE (this follows the secret rule)
Initial black koan: BLACK (this doesn't follow the rule)

Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 28, 2014, 05:02:51 AM
ETIHW
HIE
SLACK
TROUT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 28, 2014, 07:22:51 AM
ETIHW - white
HIE - white
SLACK - black
TROUT - white
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 28, 2014, 07:38:27 AM
ACK
TRACK
TRALE
WHILE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 28, 2014, 08:50:06 AM
ACK - black
TRACK - black
TRALE - white
WHILE - white
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on August 28, 2014, 09:32:45 AM
BLAC
BLAK
BLA
KCALB
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 28, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
Yeah, ccx is correct about my rule. Sorry for not responding, internet was out here at the institute.

EDIT: Got an idea: Koan has buddha-nature iff the number of vowels in it is even.

If not:
K
C
X
TACK
TAC
TAK
TAE
TC
TK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 28, 2014, 12:39:39 PM
BLAC - white [thus counterexample to geoo's rule-guess]
BLAK - white
BLA - black
KCALB - black
K - white
C - white
X - white
TACK - white
TAC - black
TAK - black
TAE - white
TC - black
TK - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on August 28, 2014, 02:59:26 PM
Ok so, then, number of consonants is odd?

(A bit of a coincidence that all the koans until my guess had odd length, thus making my two guesses equivalent until then...)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 28, 2014, 03:32:57 PM
Yep, you got it. 8)  (I did initially consider using primality instead of parity, but hey, err on the easier side right?)

Simon's guesses were indeed all odd-length, though some of Clam's weren't, except I wasn't able to reply to his before you posted.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 28, 2014, 04:49:07 PM
can I start a new round? [I'll be better as master than a guesser]

Initial white koan: STOOGE (this follows the secret rule)
Initial black koan: GATES (this doesn't follow the rule)

Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 28, 2014, 07:02:51 PM
geoo's guesses from IRC:

spoon - black
koan - white
tooges - white
oogest - white
ogesto - white
egoots - white
atesg - black
tesga - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 28, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
BUDDHA
BUDHA
KOANS
STOGE
OO
O

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 28, 2014, 10:32:13 PM
BUDDHA - black
BUDHA - black
KOANS - black
STOGE - black
OO - black
O - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 28, 2014, 10:34:31 PM
OK, I'll have a guess too.

AL
GOO
CONE
AVOID
PANAMA
LULLABY
RAINBOWS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 28, 2014, 11:26:34 PM
AL - white
GOO - black
CONE - white
AVOID - black
PANAMA - white
LULLABY - black
RAINBOWS - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 29, 2014, 04:08:40 AM
RAINBOW
KAN
BUDDHAS
AARDVARK
SOUP

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 29, 2014, 06:31:55 AM
This game sort of reminds me of Mastermind, only a bit more complicated than that, having to guess the rule.

I think I know the rule now: Number of consonants must equal number of vowels in the word, so even a blank answer would make a white koan.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 29, 2014, 05:20:40 PM
minimac is winner!

Not sure on blank answer though. I didn't know making a blank answer was possible, but you're right I guess.


I said the same thing about Mastermind yesterday on IRC  :D . I love that game; but very challenging.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 29, 2014, 05:49:48 PM
Very nice, I was merely considering single letters.

minimac may master the next game if he wishes.

The empty koan is customarily disallowed. Having some interest in set theory, disallowing the empty koan feels unnatural, but the offline game has a practical reason for it: The marked empty koan looks like a stray marking stone on the table.

Nonetheless, rules could always be evaluated for the empty koan. "The first letter has property E" evaluated for the empty koan, is false for any formula E. "All letters have property E" is true.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 29, 2014, 08:26:35 PM
OK, let's start a new game. Examples are this time based on Welsh cities.

Initial white koan: NEWPORT (this follows the secret rule)
Initial black koan: CARDIFF (this doesn't follow the rule)

Post more koans or guesses about the rule.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on August 29, 2014, 09:15:58 PM
CLAM
CCEXPLORE
GEOO
MINIMAC
INSANESTEVE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 29, 2014, 10:22:33 PM
CLAM - white
CCEXPLORE - black
GEOO - white
MINIMAC - black
INSANESTEVE - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 29, 2014, 10:45:01 PM
CLAMPLORE
GEOOPLORE
CE
NWPRT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 29, 2014, 10:48:55 PM
CLAMPLORE - black
GEOOPLORE - white
CE - white
NWPRT - white
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on August 29, 2014, 11:02:38 PM
CLAMCLAM
GEOOGEOO
CCEXCLAM
CCEXGEOO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on August 29, 2014, 11:41:25 PM
Throwing out a guess because it's night where minimac is (I think):

AKHTBN iff it contains at most four letters (not necessarily distinct) from the first half of the alphabet.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 30, 2014, 05:24:08 AM
Good guess; I'm afraid it was not the rule I was looking for, here are some more koans.

CLAMCLAM - black
GEOOGEOO - black
CCEXCLAM - black
CCEXGEOO - black
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 06:19:55 AM
I guess that AKHTBN iff each consonant appears at most once in the koan.

STUPOR
RIDDLE
RIPPLE
PHILIPPINES
THEQUICKBROWNFOXJUMPS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 30, 2014, 07:26:06 AM
Absolutely correct! As for the koans...

STUPOR - White
RIDDLE - Black
RIPPLE - Black
PHILIPPINES - Black
THEQUICKBROWNFOXJUMPS - White :D
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 02:07:28 PM
Alright, good one. :-) New game:

BROWN - white
BLACK - black

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 06:39:28 PM
From IRC:

WURST - black
BLAC - black
BLA - black
WHITE - black
BROWNBROWN - black
NWORB - black
RBWON - black
OWNB - black

BROW - white
BRO - white
BR - white
B - white
BL - white
BROWNROWNROWN - white
XYZ - white
AXYZ - white
A - white
AX - white
X - white

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 30, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
a koan has the buddha nature if and only if the letters in it go from left to right; in Alphabetic order

guesses:

YUTS
ZOON
LIGED
FEUTI
LIKELIKE
LIKELIKELIKE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 07:02:48 PM
Quote from: möbius on 2014-08-30 12:57:20
a koan has the buddha nature if and only if the letters in it go from left to right; in Alphabetic order

BROWNROWNROWN (white) is a counterexample. This was added to my IRC post above while you were writing.

YUTS - black
ZOON - black
LIGED - black
FEUTI - black
LIKELIKE - black
LIKELIKELIKE - black

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 30, 2014, 07:06:13 PM
C
D
E
Q
LOOK
LOOO
VFGFHF
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 07:08:49 PM
C, D, E, Q: all white
LOOK: black
LOOO: white
VFGFHF: black

And from IRC:
WUUT - black
TUUW - white

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 30, 2014, 07:50:03 PM
AB
ABAB
ABABA
AABBAA

ABBCCCDDDD
BAAAB
BAB
BABA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 30, 2014, 08:09:46 PM
Bouncing on mobius' idea (which may be going completely in the wrong direction) I shall guess:

A koan has the buddha-nature if its first letter is the same as or alphabetically earlier than each of its other letters.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 08:29:50 PM
AB - white
ABAB - black
ABABA - black
AABBAA - black

ABBCCCDDDD - white
BAAAB - black
BAB - black
BABA - black

Quote from: Proxima
A koan has the buddha-nature if its first letter is the same as or alphabetically earlier than each of its other letters.

This is not correct. There is one existing disproving koan: BROWNBROWN, marked black, which would be white according to this guess.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 30, 2014, 09:00:13 PM
Let's go for some more common words rather than freaky letter codes. ;)

TEA
COFFEE
SUGAR
WINE
BEER
CHARCOAL
IGLOO

Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 09:07:27 PM
TEA - black
COFFEE - white
SUGAR - black
WINE - black
BEER - white
CHARCOAL - black
IGLOO - black

Tea and charcoal is about the only thing that colored appropriately here. <_<

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 30, 2014, 09:25:23 PM
Ok then, I guess that a koan has the buddha-nature if its first letter is alphabetically earlier than each of its other letters.  :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: Proxima on 2014-08-30 15:25:23
a koan has the buddha-nature if its first letter is alphabetically earlier than each of its other letters.  :P

You are enlightened. Well done!

You may host a next round immediately.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 30, 2014, 09:37:04 PM
Quote from: Proxima on 2014-08-30 15:25:23
Ok then, I guess that a koan has the buddha-nature if its first letter is alphabetically earlier than each of its other letters.  :P

DOH! I actually thought of this but for some reason immediately thought; "no, that can't be it"  :XD:

good job, and good rule. Simple yet stumped everyone for a while
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 30, 2014, 11:15:50 PM
Okay  8)

In this round, BUDDHA has the buddha-nature
and NATURE does not have the buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 30, 2014, 11:38:34 PM
BUDDHANATURE
NATURALSCIENCES
NUT
BUD
BUDWEISER
RHAPSODY
DUB

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on August 30, 2014, 11:49:32 PM
will a BUDDHIST have the Budhda-Nature?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: NaOH on August 30, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
HCL
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 30, 2014, 11:56:50 PM
Having buddha-nature:

BUDDHANATURE
NATURALSCIENCES
BUD
BUDWEISER
BUDDHIST

Lacking buddha-nature:

NUT
RHAPSODY
DUB
HCL
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: NaOH on August 30, 2014, 11:58:41 PM
AIRBUD
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 31, 2014, 12:06:43 AM
DUBLIN
DUBBERNATURE
NUDE
BUT
HCLACID
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 31, 2014, 12:09:46 AM
Having buddha-nature:

AIRBUD
DUBLIN
DUBBERNATURE
BUT

Lacking buddha-nature:

NUDE
HCLACID
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 31, 2014, 12:18:53 AM
NATURAL
NURTURE
NURTURED
NUTRIENT

Everything I was considering so far is thrown overboard again by NATURE being black...

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on August 31, 2014, 04:11:09 AM
STATICUS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 31, 2014, 08:22:54 AM
I
DONT
GET
THIS
ITS
TOTALLY
MISUNDERSTANDABLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 31, 2014, 12:49:36 PM
Having buddha-nature:

DONT
MISUNDERSTANDABLE

Lacking buddha-nature:

NATURAL
NURTURE
NURTURED
NUTRIENT
STATICUS
I
GET
THIS
ITS
TOTALLY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 31, 2014, 01:31:25 PM
BUDDHABUDDHA
AHDDUB
BUDDXD
BUDDAHS
IO
IOIO
CALL
KLPX
KLPXOIUE
ORANGE
JUICE

------

throwing out an accusation which is most-likely wrong; a koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains letters that are present in "BUDDHA" but must be in the order of which they appear in BUDDHA.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 31, 2014, 01:48:42 PM
Having buddha-nature:

BUDDHABUDDHA
AHDDUB (this disproves your guess)
BUDDXD
BUDDAHS
CALL

Lacking buddha-nature:

IO
IOIO
KLPX
KLPXOIUE
ORANGE
JUICE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on August 31, 2014, 02:22:09 PM
TNOD
TUB
STI
SIHT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on August 31, 2014, 07:19:36 PM
BUDDHABUDDHABUDDHABUDDHA
BETTER
BUTTER
CALLLL
HADUBD
BUDE
NUTCRACKER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 31, 2014, 07:53:42 PM
Having buddha-nature:

BUDDHABUDDHABUDDHABUDDHA (and in fact any koan consisting of n repetitions of "BUDDHA" :P )
BETTER
BUTTER
CALLLL
BUDE

Lacking buddha-nature:

TNOD
TUB
STI
SIHT
HADUBD
NUTCRACKER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 31, 2014, 08:31:00 PM
let the funcion id() turn letters into numbers: id(A) = 1, id(B) = 2, ..., id(Z) = 26.

AKHTBN iff the length of the koan is >= id(first letter of the koan).

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on August 31, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Thou hast attained enlightenment  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 31, 2014, 09:46:10 PM
Nice one. :-)

I offer anyone to host a game, I'll be away for 2-3 days after a couple hours.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on August 31, 2014, 09:57:01 PM
Wow, that previous koan was difficult to understand, and it was probably made harder by all the similar wordings that everyone else made. :P Maybe we were getting closer when I found out that MISUNDERSTANDABLE had the buddha nature. Anyway, now that we know the answer, I'd definitely be experimenting that one using other interesting words.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on August 31, 2014, 10:03:13 PM
Yes, NATURALSCIENCES and MISUNDERSTANDABLE were the last piece here. Earlier ideas were always explaining 90 percent of cases, but not these.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 01, 2014, 03:01:40 AM
okay, maybe an easier round:

Initial white koan: WHITE
Initial black koan: BLACK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 01, 2014, 06:19:43 AM
OK, if this is a colour round, shall we do all the other colours too?  :evil: :sick: :scared:

RED
ORANGE
YELLOW
LIME
GREEN
TURQUOISE
BLUE
INDIGO
VIOLET
PINK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 01, 2014, 09:37:15 AM
I actually came up (for my earlier round) with quite a few different ideas based on black and white, and was too lazy now to come up with other ideas using other words. :-\  Anyhow:

has Buddha nature:

ORANGE
GREEN
TURQUOISE
BLUE
INDIGO
VIOLET

lacks Buddha nature:

RED
YELLOW
LIME
PINK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 01, 2014, 10:59:59 AM
TEAL
MAGENTA
CYAN
GOLD
GREY
GRAY
MAROON
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 01, 2014, 11:51:01 AM
Buddha:
CYAN
GRAY
MAROON

Not Buddha:
TEAL
MAGENTA
GOLD
GREY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 01, 2014, 12:51:35 PM
FORTRESS
SET
AB
C
AKAK
QUICK
QUIT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 01, 2014, 03:09:03 PM
Buddha:
FORTRESS
SET
AB
QUICK
QUIT

Not Buddha:
C
AKAK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 01, 2014, 09:15:35 PM
GRIY
GROY
GRUY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 01, 2014, 11:50:39 PM
Quote from: Clam on 2014-09-01 15:15:35
GRIY
GROY
GRUY

all black (lacks Buddha nature)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 02, 2014, 12:10:00 AM
GRANGE
GRUE
QUACK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 02, 2014, 01:46:55 AM
GRANGE and QUACK has Buddha nature
GRUE does not
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on September 02, 2014, 04:42:57 AM
DIRIGIBLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 02, 2014, 05:14:30 AM
DIRIGIBLE has Buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 02, 2014, 06:52:36 AM
ccxplore said this was a slightly easier round, but at the moment he's lying. Looks like we're getting nowhere already. Let's try and remind ourselves all the ones that have a buddha nature already to see if we can get any closer. I've put them in alphabetical order.
AB
BLUE
CYAN
DIRIGIBLE
FORTRESS
GRANGE
GRAY
GREEN
INDIGO
MAROON
ORANGE
QUACK
QUICK
QUIT
SET
TURQUOISE
VIOLET
WHITE

I'll try a few more longer words
ESTABLISHMENT
HORRIFICALLY
UNDERNEATH
BEREAVEMENT
NEGOTIATIONABLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 02, 2014, 07:59:37 AM
Quote from: minimac on 2014-09-02 00:52:36
ccxplore said this was a slightly easier round, but at the moment he's lying. Looks like we're getting nowhere already.

Yeah sorry, I suspected soon after I posted the initial koans that I probably misjudged the difficulty, but do not have a good way to simplify it without already affecting the initial koans. :-[ I guess if desired I can give a hint (in the form of koans) or we can just start a whole new round.

Anyway, your latest koans are all black (non-Buddha).

ESTABLISHMENT
HORRIFICALLY
UNDERNEATH
BEREAVEMENT
NEGOTIATIONABLE

To be fair, with the exception of Proxima's koans (and a pair of Clam's koans, perhaps somewhat by accident), so far it doesn't seem like people are being all that systematic with their koans.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 02, 2014, 01:40:10 PM
Quote from: minimac on 2014-09-02 00:52:36
Let's try and remind ourselves all the ones that have a buddha nature already to see if we can get any closer. I've put them in alphabetical order.

For this kind of thing, it's as important to keep track of the ones that lack buddha-nature. Knowing that GRAY has buddha-nature doesn't tell us much by itself, but that GRAY does and GREY does not is much more significant.

"Fancy being more interesting in things that don't have buddha-nature than in things that do!" -- Achilles, in Gödel, Escher, Bach

AKAK
BEREAVEMENT
BLACK
C
ESTABLISHMENT
GOLD
GREY
GRIY
GROY
GRUE
GRUY
HORRIFICALLY
LIME
MAGENTA
NEGOTIATIONABLE
PINK
RED
TEAL
UNDERNEATH
YELLOW

* * *

Next set of guesses:

FRAY
GRAM
NEGOTIABLE
TALLOW
UNDERCITY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 02, 2014, 02:30:07 PM
Buddha:
FRAY
GRAM

non-Buddha:
NEGOTIABLE
TALLOW
UNDERCITY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 02, 2014, 04:37:43 PM
FREY
FRY
GRY
TRAM
TRAY
TRY  ;P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 02, 2014, 07:09:12 PM
YGRA
AYGR
GARY
NEGOTIABLEQ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 02, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
Buddha:
TRY
YGRA
AYGR
GARY

non-Buddha:
FREY
FRY
GRY
TRAM
TRAY
NEGOTIABLEQ

----------------

Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-02 01:59:37
I guess if desired I can give a hint (in the form of koans)

It occurred to me that in lieu of just me giving out koans for free (which isn't exactly how the game works), people can instead post guesses of the rule, even if it is obviously incorrect due to failing on already tried koans.  I would have discretion over what counterexample response to post, and for hinting purposes I can make the counterexample much more helpful/revealing than normal.  All of that would work completely within the rules of the game.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 02, 2014, 09:04:10 PM
FGSFDS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 02, 2014, 10:06:15 PM
GRBY
GRAAY
GRAYGRAY
GRAYGREY
GREYGREY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 02, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-02 14:28:14
It occurred to me that in lieu of just me giving out koans for free (which isn't exactly how the game works), people can instead post guesses of the rule, even if it is obviously incorrect due to failing on already tried koans.  I would have discretion over what counterexample response to post, and for hinting purposes I can make the counterexample much more helpful/revealing than normal.  All of that would work completely within the rules of the game.

Ah, but we can request a hint within the rules of the game: guess "A koan has the buddha-nature if and only if it is one of the following: {list of all known "white" koans}". But that's cumbersome to type out. So I think a shortcut should be formalised by adding a rule that the players can ask for a hint in the form of a new koan of the master's choice. Not that I'm doing that now; the latest sets of koans should provide a good amount of new information.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2014, 12:53:23 AM
Buddha:
GRBY
GRAAY
GRAYGRAY
GRAYGREY

not Buddha:
FGSFDS
GREYGREY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 03, 2014, 04:59:51 PM
RAY
REY
RYE
RUBY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2014, 08:46:55 PM
Buddha:
RAY
RUBY

not Buddha:
REY
RYE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 03, 2014, 09:58:21 PM
Three more koans:
QJRGLPFAB
ABZ
ABNS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2014, 07:33:50 AM
QJRGLPFAB, ABZ, ABNS all have Buddha-nature

------------

Let's do this:  if no one posts guesses (koans or rules) for over 24 hours after the latest response from master, consider this round abandoned and someone can start a new round?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 04, 2014, 09:18:22 AM
I like this idea. And then after the 24 hours expire the master may reveal the answer.
What we know so far is that most of the koans tend to be short lettered words. TURQUOISE and DIRIGIBLE were the longest. I still have no idea so this is my last set of koans to try. (Don't know if this is helpful :(, maybe I should be writing the letters of the alphabet as koan guesses instead)

NEWPORT
CARDIFF
SWANSEA
GLASGOW
BRISTOL
NORWICH
PRESTON
SALFORD
CHESTER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2014, 02:09:58 PM
Buddha:
CARDIFF
GLASGOW
PRESTON
SALFORD
CHESTER

not Buddha:
NEWPORT
SWANSEA
BRISTOL
NORWICH
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 04, 2014, 02:18:28 PM
GREYGRAY
ABK
ABAKAK
QACK
QQ
X
AX
EX
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 04, 2014, 05:55:25 PM
No new koans right now, but a discussion about properties of the Buddha-nature. Given the tested koans so far, the following three rules seem to hold:
R1: The Buddha-nature does not depend on the order of the letters in the koan.
R2: The Buddha-nature only depends on whether a letter occurs in the koan, but not how often it occurs.
R3: Letters that have neither vertical nor horizontal mirror symmetry (i.e. FGJLNPQRSZ) have no impact at all on the Buddha-nature.
I am fairly sure of R1 and R3, but I wouldn't bet on R2 as we have only few test strings for this one.

Here a list of all koans testet so far, after ordering the letters alphabetically and removing all non-symmetric ones.

EDIT: List removed because of disproved rules.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 04, 2014, 06:03:04 PM
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-04 01:33:50
Let's do this:  if no one posts guesses (koans or rules) for over 24 hours after the latest response from master, consider this round abandoned and someone can start a new round?
I don't know why you think that because it's taking a while to reach the answer, we're not having fun. We are Lemmings fans, after all.

We can have a rule that if a majority of active players want to end the round, the master reveals the answer, but I strongly object to the idea that the round could be ended prematurely just because someone was busy and didn't get round to posting within 24 hours -- especially when this is the first really good puzzle we've had in this game.

Anyway, as we've reached a new page, here's another recap of koans so far. White on the left, black on the right.

Code: [Select]
AB                  AKAK
ABNZ                BEREAVEMENT
ABZ                 BLACK
AYGR                BRISTOL
BLUE                C
CARDIFF              ESTABLISHMENT
CHESTER              FGSFDS
CYAN                FREY
DIRIGIBLE           FRY
FORTRESS            GOLD
FRAY                 GREY
GARY                GREYGREY
GLASGOW             GRIY
GRAAY               GROY
GRAM                GRUE
GRANGE              GRUY
GRAY                GRY
GRAYGRAY            HORRIFICALLY
GRAYGREY            LIME
GRBY                 MAGENTA
GREEN               NEGOTIABLE
INDIGO             NEGOTIABLEQ
MAROON              NEGOTIONABLE
ORANGE              NEWPORT
PRESTON             NORWICH
QJRGLPFAB           PINK
QUACK               RED
QUICK               REY
QUIT               RYE
RAY                 SWANSEA
RUBY                 TEAL
SALFORD             TRAY
SET
TRY
TURQUOISE
VIOLET
WHITE
YGRA
EDIT: Nepster posted at the same time as me. His idea of ordering each koan alphabetically is interesting and may be helpful (since it does seem to be the case that this rule isn't affected by internal order -- all the anagrams of GRAY we tested all had buddha-nature). But I don't like the idea of removing information -- your rule R3 may turn out to be right, but at the moment it's only a guess. I doubt that symmetry is really the key to this rule, since GRAY has buddha-nature but GRUY does not.

* * *

New guesses:

FOLD
OLD
FORD
FORT
GGRAY
GGREY
G
A
E
R
Y
GAY
GEY
GRA
GRE
LET
NEGOTIBLE
NEGOTIAABLE
NEGOTIABLEA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 04, 2014, 09:34:10 PM
May as well share some of my thoughts about the possible nature of the rule.

I was thinking along similar lines to Nepster -- the GRAY/GRY, FRAY/FRY and TRAY/TRY pairs suggest that A is a significant letter whose addition changes a string's buddha-nature, while F, G and Q are insignificant. However, GRAAY also has buddha-nature, so adding a second A is not significant. That suggests that the rule could take the form "A koan has the buddha-nature if it contains an even number of distinct significant letters" (for some set of significant letters yet to be determined).

However, it's impossible for a rule of this form to work. I would have to be both a significant letter (because of QUICK/QUACK) and insignificant (because of GRAY/GRY/GRIY). It could be a similar but more complex rule -- but ccexplore thought we would get this one easily, so I don't think it can be. I think these thoughts must be along the wrong lines altogether  :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on September 04, 2014, 11:26:00 PM
HINDENBURG
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 05, 2014, 01:10:20 AM
Quote from: Proxima on 2014-09-04 12:03:04
I don't know why you think that because it's taking a while to reach the answer, we're not having fun. We are Lemmings fans, after all.

We can have a rule that if a majority of active players want to end the round, the master reveals the answer, but I strongly object to the idea that the round could be ended prematurely just because someone was busy and didn't get round to posting within 24 hours -- especially when this is the first really good puzzle we've had in this game.

Okay, it's all up to you guys, majority sounds fine to me.  I merely want to make sure I don't end up killing the thread.

Quote from: Proxima on 2014-09-04 15:34:10
but ccexplore thought we would get this one easily

Please ignore that, as I'm pretty sure my brain totally farted when I thought that would be the case. :XD: I now would say this is clearly harder than any of the previous rounds, due at least in part to the crazy way the rule came about (even though it is still fairly straightforward to describe verbally in a sentence or two, maybe).

Even ignoring all the guesses, I myself have quickly recognized how unreasonable it is for me to think this rule would be easier.  On hindsight I should've eliminate one part of the rule so it is truly easier, but doing so would affect the initial koans as well.  On the previous round I mastered, I already started considering which classes of rules are intrinsically more difficult to deduce/induce/recognize patterns for, yet I totally failed to take that into consideration when I started this round. :XD:

==========================

"koan has..." True:

GREYGRAY
QACK
AX
FORT
GGRAY
A
GAY
GRA
LET

"koan has..." False:

ABK
ABAKAK
NEGOTIBLE
NEGOTIAABLE
NEGOTIABLEA
HINDENBURG
QQ
X
EX
FOLD
OLD
FORD
GGREY
G
E
R
Y
GEY
GRE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 05, 2014, 10:55:15 AM
ACK
AK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 05, 2014, 10:57:15 AM
^ Both koans have the Buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 05, 2014, 12:19:29 PM
ANEGOTIBLE
NEGOTILE
HINDENURG
ALE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 05, 2014, 05:45:38 PM
I removed the list in my previous post as the koans AK and E disproved at least some of my rules there.
Quote
I doubt that symmetry is really the key to this rule, since GRAY has buddha-nature but GRUY does not.
My thoughts actually went more in the direction of rules like "AKHTBN if if contains two vertically symmetric letters that have distance at least 10 in the alphabet."

Some new koans:
AA
AAA
AAAA
AAAAA
AAAAAA
GRAYL
ABL
TRYL
REDL

@Proxima: I noticed two typos in your list: ABNZ should be ABNS and NEGOTIONABLE should be NEGOTIATIONABLE.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 05, 2014, 07:59:20 PM
Buddha:

HINDENURG
ALE
AA
AAA
AAAA
AAAAA
AAAAAA
GRAYL
ABL
TRYL

not Buddha:

ANEGOTIBLE
NEGOTILE
REDL
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 05, 2014, 09:28:19 PM
XRAY
LITHE
MOLE
HOXI
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 05, 2014, 09:57:23 PM
enlightened:
XRAY
HOXI

unenlightened:
LITHE
MOLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on September 06, 2014, 02:16:24 AM
NONPAREILL
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 06, 2014, 02:21:00 AM
^ lacks Buddha nature
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on September 06, 2014, 02:35:21 AM
INDISPENSABLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 06, 2014, 02:38:58 AM
^ also lacks Buddha nature
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 06, 2014, 05:22:08 PM
EE
EEE
AAK
AKK
K
KK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on September 06, 2014, 05:34:38 PM
AMALGAMATION
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 06, 2014, 06:31:30 PM
FOF
OFO
FOOOOF
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF
FOFO
OOF
OFF
OF
FO
HH
III
MMM
ZZZ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 07, 2014, 01:07:08 AM
Has Buddha-Nature:

AAK
AKK
K
KK
AMALGAMATION
HH

lacks Buddha-Nature:

EE
EEE
FOF
OFO
FOOOOF
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF
FOFO
OOF
OFF
OF
FO
III
MMM
ZZZ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 07, 2014, 03:51:51 AM
It seems very interesting to me that "HH" is buddha and not "EE" or "III".
Anybody have any thoughts on numbering the letters from 1 to 26 like Proxima's earlier round? Obviously which letters chosen is directly important. [suppose everyone already knew this]

more guesses:

NFL
NBA
KKK
XLO
ZHX
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 07, 2014, 05:07:46 AM
Has Buddha-Nature:
NFL
KKK (D'oh! :-[)
ZHX
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

lacks Buddha-Nature:
NBA
XLO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 07, 2014, 07:54:33 AM
I've been following this, but haven't contributed much in the way of koans, probably because others have posted so many already :XD:. But thanks to the large number of koans (and MS Excel!), I'm able to make a guess at the rule with some confidence:

AKHTBN iff it contains one or more of the letters {A, K, H, T, B, N}, and they occur only in that order.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 07, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Woo!  Go Clam! :thumbsup: 8)  'scuse me I mean "thou hast enlightened". ;P

Curious that MS Excel helped out, were you doing some sort of statistical analysis with the frequency of letters or something? ???

[In case people are still unclear on the ordering condition:  for example BLACK disobeys the ordering because the B appears before the A (and also before the K) in the word.  LAB is okay since A is before B just like in "AKHTBN"--not having K, H or T in "LAB" is fine, the ordering condition is only on the "blessed" letters that are present in the koan.  AAKK would be okay while AKAK would not.  AABB good, ABAB bad.  And yes, BUDDHA is ironically not okay. :-\]

==========

In hindsight perhaps I should've forgo the ordering condition, but then again, we previously did a round already (geoo mastered) where Buddha nature is conferred simply by inclusion of a set of blessed letters, so I guess I thought it would be too much of the same, and thought the little twist would be a good idea.  Or maybe I should've kept the twist but use a smaller set of blessed letters instead (people were at least eventually picking up on A, B and K, even though everyone also seemed to have forgotten by then that the initial white koan of WHITE has none of those three letters).

And in my defense, generally speaking the way people were going about this often didn't help, with so many long-length koans which are bound to disobey the required ordering.  If people did like I did with geoo's round and say, do the 26 single-letter koans, I imagine things would've been much clearer.  People were drawing some good theories, but often got hung up by examples where the koans have more special letters than the ones they were suspecting, which ends up confusing people as to why those koans don't seem to fit.  Testing out smaller koans might've helped in those cases.

Had someone went the "hint" route and post an obviously incorrect rule guess, I have planned out these fun koans to reveal (amongst other possibilities like literally AKHTBN):

AKIDHELPSTIMBUYNOODLES (white)
TIMHELPSAKIDBUYNOODLES (black)

I also early on wrote a computer program to check people's koans, so if at any point someone bring up whether I could've made a mistake somewhere along the way with so many koans at play, the answer would be a firm "no" (other than copy-paste errors when inputting into computer program, but I had been very careful with that).

=============

Anyway, Clam can do the next round, or call open floor and have someone else do it.  Or maybe we can all use a break and play some other forum game instead?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 07, 2014, 10:32:02 AM
Wow, you really stumped us there.  :P A very interesting rule though, wouldn't have come up with that.

Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-07 04:08:31
do the 26 single-letter koans

Personally, I find that really cheap  :P but it's just me.

Anyhow, people don't have to play Zendo if they don't want to, but those who do could still continue of course  ???
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 07, 2014, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: Ramon
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-07 04:08:31
do the 26 single-letter koans

Personally, I find that really cheap  :P but it's just me.

This is a phenomenon of turnless Zendo.

In the turn-based game, you do this per turn: Make a new koan to be marked, possibly earn guessing attempts, and then use as many guessing attemps as you like. It takes several turns to test every 1-element koan, so you should conduct only the most needed ones.

Testing all 1-letter koans should be acceptable, even if it's not 100 % according to the process of the turn-based game. If you deem it unspiritful, it's your right to test only some. I don't want to impose any limit by rules here. :-)

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 07, 2014, 10:50:08 AM
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-07 04:08:31
Curious that MS Excel helped out, were you doing some sort of statistical analysis with the frequency of letters or something? ???

Yep :D. I suspected (as others did) that there was a set of special letters that all white koans had in common. The existing koans with only one letter type gave an initial list of "white" and "non-white" letters. Then (with an Excel formula) I counted the "white" letters in each white koan, and added other letters not in the "non-white" list until every white koan had one or more. Thanks to the size of the koan list, there was no guessing required, and there was a eureka moment when the letters AKHTBN dropped out :)

It was the koan AKAK that prompted me to think about the order of the white letters.

---

New round!

Initial white koan: CLAM
Initial black koan: SPAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 07, 2014, 10:59:28 AM
CLIX
CPLUSPLUS
SPROUT
SCHPAM
CLAMSPAMMER

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 07, 2014, 11:00:25 AM
Regarding guessing single-letter koans:

To be fair, even in geoo's round I wasn't really relying on guessing all 26 1-letter koans.  I actually had a theory that I initially tested with a single koan containing all the letters that I thought are "good".  Only when I wasn't sure whether the letter must be the first letter in the koan is when I apologetically asked for testing individual letters on their own, and even then only the individual letters from my koan (the one with what I thought were all the good letters--as it turned out some weren't because my theory of goodness was slightly off, and the individual letter koans immediately point out the bad ones).

Still, it's good input to know that some people may be aversed to certain classes of guesses, I'll be sure to try taking that into account somehow if I master any future rounds.

============

koans for Clam's round:

CL
SP
AM
MALC
MAPS
AMCL
AMSP
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 07, 2014, 11:14:58 AM
CLAMSPAM
SPAMCLAM
CLAMCLAM
SPAMSPAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 07, 2014, 11:25:38 AM
White:
SPROUT
CLAMSPAMMER
MALC
AMCL
CLAMSPAM
SPAMCLAM
CLAMCLAM

Black:
CLIX
CPLUSPLUS
SCHPAM
CL
SP
AM
MAPS
AMSP
SPAMSPAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 07, 2014, 12:03:24 PM
CA
CM
OP
OR
RS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 07, 2014, 12:08:00 PM
I make the following guess at the rule:

AKHTBN iff it contains two consecutive letters of the alphabet.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 07, 2014, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-09-07 04:08:31
In hindsight perhaps I should've forgo the ordering condition, but then again, we previously did a round already (geoo mastered) where Buddha nature is conferred simply by inclusion of a set of blessed letters, so I guess I thought it would be too much of the same, and thought the little twist would be a good idea.  Or maybe I should've kept the twist but use a smaller set of blessed letters instead (people were at least eventually picking up on A, B and K, even though everyone also seemed to have forgotten by then that the initial white koan of WHITE has none of those three letters).
I'd worked out that T was a significant letter as well  :P  And well done, that was a very nice rule.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 07, 2014, 07:42:53 PM
Quote from: Nepster on 2014-09-07 06:08:00
I make the following guess at the rule:

AKHTBN iff it contains two consecutive letters of the alphabet.

Correct :)

SPROUT was rather a giveaway, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 07, 2014, 09:21:35 PM
Actually CL and AM being both black was more helpful. SPROUT was too different from the other test koans to be of much use for me.

NEW ROUND:

Word with Buddha-nature: YELLOW
Word without Buddha-nature: BLUE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 07, 2014, 11:15:30 PM
YELLOWYELLOW
BLUEBLUE
YELLOWBLUE
BLUEYELLOW
YELLO
YELL
YEL
YE
Y
BLU
BL
B
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 07, 2014, 11:30:41 PM
White:
YELLOWYELLOW
YE

Black:
BLUEBLUE
YELLOWBLUE
BLUEYELLOW
YELLO
YELL
YEL
Y
BLU
BL
B
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 07, 2014, 11:56:38 PM
RED
GREEN
CYAN
MAGENTA
WHITE
BLACK
BELLOW
WOLLEY
WBLUE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 08, 2014, 08:20:26 AM
White:
WOLLEY
CYAN

Black:
RED
GREEN
MAGENTA
WHITE
BLACK
BELLOW
WBLUE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 08, 2014, 10:55:38 AM
YA
YL
YO
YW
YOLO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 08, 2014, 12:43:51 PM
YEW
YBLUE
BLUEY
WOLLE
ELLOW
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 08, 2014, 04:12:27 PM
White:
YA
YL

Black:
YO
YW
YOLO
YEW
YBLUE
BLUEY
WOLLE
ELLOW
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 08, 2014, 04:15:45 PM
L
LL
LOL
MISTER
MISS
MISSSS
MISO
ACK
ACHE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 08, 2014, 04:24:41 PM
WE
ALL
LIVE
IN
A
YELLOWSUBMARINE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 08, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
White:
MISTER
MISS
MISO
WE
IN

Black:
L
LL
LOL
MISSSS
ACK
ACHE
ALL
LIVE
A
YELLOWSUBMARINE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 09, 2014, 07:01:56 PM
Let's try a few more longer words. BTW "LEMMINGS" wasn't even submitted as a koan guess yet, so I'll put that in for the name of the forum's sake. :P

LEMMINGS
CARELESS
CLICKING
COSTS
LIVES
LEMMINGOLOGY
SANCTUARY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 09, 2014, 08:29:42 PM
MISTERYELLOW
MISSWHITE
TIMERS
WINE
SUBMARINE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 09, 2014, 10:03:47 PM
White:
MISTERYELLOW
TIMERS
WINE

Black:
LEMMINGS
CARELESS
CLICKING
COSTS
LIVES
LEMMINGOLOGY
SANCTUARY
MISSWHITE
SUBMARINE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 10, 2014, 02:05:29 AM
ZEMMINGS
YAAAAAAAAAAA (eleven As)
YAAAAAAAAAAAA (twelve As)
YOUNG
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 10, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
All of them are black:
ZEMMINGS
YAAAAAAAAAAA (eleven As)
YAAAAAAAAAAAA (twelve As)
YOUNG
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 10, 2014, 06:06:48 PM
This is as hard as ccexplore's rule. I tried adding up the values, but that idea isn't working very well. I'll have a wild guess.

AKHTBN iff 50% or more of the letters in the word are from the second half of the alphabet (N-Z)

If not, I'll submit more koans instead.

NEWPORT
LONDEN
READING
BLACKBURN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 10, 2014, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: minimac on 2014-09-10 12:06:48
This is as hard as ccexplore's rule.
I expected it to be harder than Clam's round, but definitely easier than ccexplore's rule. But I might have underestimated the difficulty arising from the rarity of white koans.

Quote from: minimac on 2014-09-10 12:06:48
AKHTBN iff 50% or more of the letters in the word are from the second half of the alphabet (N-Z)
No. A counterexample is NONSTOP, which is black. Alternatively the koan COSTS you asked last time would be a counterexample.

White:
LONDEN

Black:
NEWPORT
READING
BLACKBURN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 10, 2014, 09:18:02 PM
YAA
YEE
YY
YYY
YYYYYYYYYYYY (twelve Ys)
LIX  :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 10, 2014, 09:44:24 PM
All of them are black.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2014, 11:24:48 PM
LLOW
M
MI
MIS
MIST
MISTE
STER
YOLLEW
YLOELW
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 11, 2014, 04:10:31 PM
White:
LLOW
MIST
YOLLEW
YLOELW

Black:
M
MI
MIS
MISTE
STER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 12, 2014, 04:27:54 PM
A koan is white if it has equal numbers of letters from A to M and from N to Z.

As it's been 24 hours without my guess being adjudicated, and I'm pretty sure it's correct, I'm going to post the next round. If my guess turns out to be wrong, we can stall this round and continue Nepster's.

QUILLSHWAMMY has the buddha-nature.
LIGHTYAGAMI does not have the buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: NaOH on September 12, 2014, 04:52:20 PM
L
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 12, 2014, 04:53:30 PM
L has the buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 12, 2014, 06:16:45 PM
H
R
TEST
DIGGERIDOO
DIG
HABENERA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 12, 2014, 06:18:35 PM
(list includes some guesses from chat)

White:
H
R
TEST
AYUMISHINOZAKI
YAKUZA
YAKZUA

Black:
DIG
DIGGERIDOO
HABENERA
YAZKRDL
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 12, 2014, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Proxima on 2014-09-12 10:27:54
A koan is white if it has equal numbers of letters from A to M and from N to Z.
Correct :thumbsup:! And congratulations to minimac as well, who had almost the correct rule some days ago :thumbsup:.

One koan for Proxima's round:
BASH
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 12, 2014, 06:35:16 PM
(list includes some guesses from chat)

White:
ADADADA
AOI

Black:
BASH
HM
AOAOAOAO
TARZAN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 13, 2014, 06:08:57 AM
BAG
BUG
ART
OUR
RIO
DE
JANEIRO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 12:58:27 PM
^ Those are all black.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 04:11:24 PM
Some more guesses from chat:

White:
PRAMIOX

Black:
ASDF
PROXIMA
PRIXAMO
PRAXOMI
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 13, 2014, 04:19:53 PM
YUGIO
LUFFY
AGA
AGAG
ABCDEFG
GFEDCBA
X
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
White:
AGA
X

Black:
YUGIO
LUFFY
AGAG
ABCDEFG
GFEDCBA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 13, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
IBICHIBI
ASOGO
ASOGOJ
ABS
ABBS
TANTAMOUNT
JOHN
XAVIER
APPLE
WATER
WUNORS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
White:
IBICHIBI
TANTAMOUNT
JOHN
APPLE
WUNORS

Black:
ASOGO
ASOGOJ
ABS
ABBS
XAVIER
WATER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 13, 2014, 04:52:32 PM
accusation: akhtbn if numbering the letters of the alphabet from 1-26, each letter corresponds to a number and the letter/numbers added up--the sum must be even.

more guesses:

OCKODUCKU
LETTER
BUNG
S
SSSS
POP
GOAL
STRIFF
BAGGAGE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: möbius on 2014-09-13 10:52:32
accusation: akhtbn if numbering the letters of the alphabet from 1-26, each letter corresponds to a number and the letter/numbers added up--the sum must be even.

This is not correct. A counterexample is INSANESTEVE, which is white even though its alphabetic values sum to 133.

In chat, möbius also guessed that the alphabetic values of the first and last letters must have an even total. This is not correct; a counterexample is SAYUYAGAMI, which is black even though 19 + 9 = 28.

White:
S
SSSS
POP

Black:
OCKODUCKU
LETTER
BUNG
GOAL
STRIFF
BAGGAGE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 13, 2014, 07:49:01 PM
Interesting one. Well, with the different natures of PRAMIOX and PROXIMA we know so far that it affects word order, but still have no idea of a guess, especially when all of my previous koans were shown to be all black.

IN
ELY
YORK
LEEDS
OLDHAM
CARDIFF
SOLIHULL
SHEFFIELD
PORTSMOUTH
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2014, 07:57:16 PM
White:
ELY
PORTSMOUTH

Black:
IN
YORK
LEEDS
OLDHAM
CARDIFF
SOLIHULL
SHEFFIELD
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 14, 2014, 10:00:09 PM
Some more variations of Proxima:
PROMIXA
PRAXIMO
PROMIAX
APRIMOX
QRAMIOX
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 14, 2014, 10:18:59 PM
White:
PROMIAX

Black:
PROMIXA
PRAXIMO
APRIOMX
QRAMIOX
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
PROMIX
PROMX
PROX
PRX
PX
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 15, 2014, 02:05:10 PM
^ All white.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 02:51:05 PM
Ok, after categorizing all the guesses into their respective equivalence classes (first and last letter) I've come to the following conclusion which holds for all the guesses that have been made up to now:

A koan has the buddha nature iff the difference of its first and last letters' numeric value modulo 4 equals zero.

In other (simpler) words, the first letter of the koan must be a multiple of 4 letters away from the last letter (within the alphabet), the rest of the letters within the koan are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 15, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 04:38:59 PM
If anybody's still up for it, I got one more which I once started on IRC a while ago but never finished. Also, how about some Eleusis for a change? :P

White
LEMMING
Black
PROXIMA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 15, 2014, 04:41:09 PM
Just throwing a few words out there to see what emerges....

LIX
RAMON
FUN
TRICKY
TAXING
MAYHEM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 04:51:08 PM
White
LEMMING
Black
FUNLIXMAYHEMPROXIMARAMONTAXINGTRICKY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 15, 2014, 06:45:06 PM
I don't think anyone else would've guessed that previous rule without listing it. So it actually wasn't about word ordering at all? Erinomaista työtä Ramon.
Have we played an Eleusis game before? I don't remember, and I don't know what the goal is in this version; Well, I know so far that we're allowed to select koans, so...

HOW
IS
ELEUSIS
GOING
TO
MAKE
THIS
GAME
DIFFERENT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 07:01:11 PM
In fact this is still a round of Zendo, in Eleusis, players would try to add letters to an existing sequence of letters (which would either work or not) instead of guessing full koans.

White
LEMMING
Black
DIFFERENTELEUSISFUNGAMEGOINGHOWISLIXMAKEMAYHEMPROXIMARAMONTAXINGTHISTOTRICKY

Buddha nature seems to be hard to obtain this time around
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 15, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
OK thanks about this, I suppose it's time to send a PM to Simon to update the OP. There are probably going to be a lot of nonsensical words here.

OOKPIQQ
OCLUDD
LDMSWD
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 15, 2014, 10:21:12 PM
Heh. This is my 1111th post, and minimac is on 1357.

Let's see if I get better luck this time....

A
LOG
SUMMER
HIRSUTE
HUMMINGBIRD
LEMMINGS
LEMMINI
LEMMUS
ZUZ
LEMMIN
READING
AA
B
OH
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 15, 2014, 10:52:56 PM
White:
A LEMMING READING

Black:
AA B DIFFERENT ELEUSIS FUN GAME GOING HOW IS LDMSWD LEMMINGS LEMMIN LEMMINI LEMMUS LIX MAKE MAYHEM OCLUDD OH OOKPIQQ PROXIMA RAMON TAXING THIS TO TRICKY ZUZ


Sorry, I don't get how the table tag works. It screws up with each new post.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: NaOH on September 16, 2014, 10:40:05 AM
IS A BOOK INSTRUCTION MANUAL

Here's an incomplete prediction: AKHTBN iff it is one of the words in a particular (and probably humorous) sentence that the master has in mind.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 16, 2014, 12:24:05 PM
White:
A JUGGERNAUT LEMMING READING ZQVGSDKRTNA

Black:
AA B BOOK DIFFERENT ELEUSIS FUN GAME GOING HOW INSTRUCTION IS LDMSWD LEMMINGS LEMMIN LEMMINI LEMMUS LIX MAKE MANUAL MAYHEM OCLUDD OH OOKPIQQ PROXIMA RAMON TAXING THIS TO TRICKY ZUZ

Disproven guesses (AKHTBN iff):
the koan ends in ING --- disproving koan: JUGGERNAUT is White (<-- by Proxima on IRC)
the koan is a word of a particular sentence --- disproving koan: ZQVGSDKRTNA is White

Such a rule with only select koans would be very, very unfair. :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 16, 2014, 08:13:16 PM
Another guess for the rule:
AKHTBN iff it contains the dth letter from the alphabet, where d is the length of the koan. The only exception is DIFFERENT, where the rule is different ;P.

If this is incorrect, here some more koans:
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD (30 D's)
GLEMMIN
EMMING
LEMING
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 16, 2014, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Nepster on 2014-09-16 14:13:16
Another guess for the rule:
AKHTBN iff it contains the dth letter from the alphabet, where d is the length of the koan. The only exception is DIFFERENT, where the rule is different ;P.

Actually, you're correct, and I must apologize for that grave oversight. No idea how that happened  :scared:
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 17, 2014, 05:53:41 PM
Quote from: Ramon on 2014-09-16 16:55:45
... and I must apologize for that grave oversight. No idea how that happened  :scared:
No harm done and DIFFERENT was by far the best choice for your oversight ;). Good rule anyway.

New round of Zendo:
White: ELEUSIS
Black: ZENDO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 17, 2014, 06:28:11 PM
ELEPHANT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 17, 2014, 07:27:14 PM
ELEPHANT is black.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 17, 2014, 10:44:10 PM
Quite a few obvious guesses coming up considering the answers so far (although they're probably not gonna be the ones you're looking for) Here's two guesses I thought of:

AKHTBN iff the first and last letter (or just the last letter) appears more than once in the whole word, orr;
iff there is two or more of the same consonant or vowel in the word.

Otherwise, time to guess more koans:

ATHENS
CORONA
APOEL
NICOSIA
ELECTABLE
VALERIE
YAY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 17, 2014, 11:04:41 PM
Unfortunaely both guesses are incorrect.
Disproving the first guess: BUDDHA is white.
Disproving the second guess: KOAN is white as well.

All the other koans are black:
ATHENS
CORONA
APOEL
NICOSIA
ELECTABLE
VALERIE
YAY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 18, 2014, 09:06:04 PM
Hope you don't mind if someone bored at work jumps in...

To hazard a guess:

AKHTBN iff, when the letters it contains are arranged alphabetically, both the beginning and ending letter are vowels/
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 18, 2014, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: ben on 2014-09-18 15:06:04
Hope you don't mind if someone bored at work jumps in...
This game is meant exactly for those times...

Quote from: ben on 2014-09-18 15:06:04
AKHTBN iff, when the letters it contains are arranged alphabetically, both the beginning and ending letter are vowels/
Good guess, but MUSIC is another white koan.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: mobius on September 18, 2014, 11:23:47 PM
AKHTBN iff; the letters in the koan go in order; up the alphabet, then down, then up etc.. or visa versa.

-----------
LIKE
ELECTRODE
SING
ZZOZZ
ZOZ
QELL
FART

---------
I totally missed the Eleusis round. To be honest I'm not sure I understand it
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 19, 2014, 12:20:23 AM
Quote from: möbius on 2014-09-18 17:23:47
I totally missed the Eleusis round. To be honest I'm not sure I understand it
As far as I know, there was no Eleusis round. Ramon wanted to start one, but it was changed to a Zendo game during the first few replies.

Quote from: möbius on 2014-09-18 17:23:47
AKHTBN iff; the letters in the koan go in order; up the alphabet, then down, then up etc.. or visa versa.
Sorry, but I don't quite understand your guess. Wouldn't the white koan ELEUSIS correspond to up-down-up-down-down-up and thus being black according to your rule?

All your new koans are black:
LIKE
ELECTRODE
SING
ZZOZZ
ZOZ
QELL
FART
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 19, 2014, 01:33:49 AM
ELEUSISELEUSIS
MUSICKOAN
ELEUSISBUDDHA
ELEPHANTBUDDHA
BUDDHAELEPHANT
ELUSI
OLOASUS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 19, 2014, 03:12:26 AM
Quote from: Nepster on 2014-09-18 18:20:23
As far as I know, there was no Eleusis round. Ramon wanted to start one, but it was changed to a Zendo game during the first few replies.

Correction: Ramon suggested we play Eleusis next round, and minimac misunderstood him to mean the (then) current round was Eleusis.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 19, 2014, 08:28:27 AM
Quote from: Proxima on 2014-09-18 21:12:26
Correction: Ramon suggested we play Eleusis next round, and minimac misunderstood him to mean the (then) current round was Eleusis.
Then I am deeply sorry for misunderstanding Ramon as well and starting a Zendo round instead of an Eleusis one.

White koans:
ELEUSISELEUSIS
MUSICKOAN
ELEUSISBUDDHA
ELEPHANTBUDDHA
BUDDHAELEPHANT
ELUSI
OLOASUS

Interesting that people choose koans that are either all white or all black :).
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 19, 2014, 09:46:04 AM
WOLOLO
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: ccexplore on September 19, 2014, 07:26:23 PM
NKAO
KN
EKEUNIN
USIS
AABCDDEEHIIKLMNOSSSUUU
NEPSTER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 20, 2014, 03:14:56 AM
ELEISIS
ZUNDO
MENDO
KOANS

(prediction: MENDO will be white, the other three black?)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 20, 2014, 09:51:26 AM
White:
NKAO
EKEUNIN
USIS
AABCDDEEHIIKLMNOSSSUUU
MENDO (as predicted)

Black:
WOLOLO
KN
NEPSTER (very far from Buddha-nature :-[)
ELEISIS
ZUNDO
KOANS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 20, 2014, 01:47:46 PM
Gonna have to go with a modified version of my original attempt...

AKHTBN iff, when the letters in it are arranged alphabetically, the last letter is a vowel.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 20, 2014, 09:42:54 PM
Quote from: Ben on 2014-09-20 07:47:46
AKHTBN iff, when the letters in it are arranged alphabetically, the last letter is a vowel.
100% correct this time :thumbsup:!
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 20, 2014, 09:45:23 PM
Awesome, ha.

Nepster, I don't want to admit to how much of my time at work yesterday was spent looking at that incomprehensible string of letters, brow furrowed. Nice.

Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 21, 2014, 04:17:17 PM
Ben, congratulations on a well thought out guess. Are you calling open floor or would you like to create a challenge?

I'd like to start off a game if you're calling open floor, but if you'd like to make a rule I'll scratch this game make YES and NO koan guesses.

Initial white koan: NO
Initial black koan: YES
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 21, 2014, 04:22:01 PM
Thanks!
Floor's wide open :)

Does this game mean that any koan guess has to be answerable by either a yes or a no?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 21, 2014, 04:32:06 PM
No, merely that minimac would abort this round that starts with initial koans of YES and NO if you wanted to host a round.

YE
SAY
NOT
YEAH
YESSIR

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ben on September 21, 2014, 04:41:03 PM
Makes more sense, ha. Need more coffee, I suppose

AYE
EYES
ON
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 21, 2014, 06:19:00 PM
AYE - white
EYES - black
ON - white
YE - black
SAY - black
NOT - black
YEAH - black
YESSIR - black

After that, my postal count's tied with Dullstar now, the most active member back at the time when the forum was created in 2009.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 22, 2014, 09:50:11 AM
EYA
SEY
NONO
NOON
NOAYE
WHITE
BLACK
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 22, 2014, 02:26:40 PM
EYA - white
SEY - black
NONO - black
NOON - black
NOAYE - black
WHITE - black
BLACK - white
???
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 22, 2014, 09:35:40 PM
Please arrange koans into whites then blacks when replying, it makes it so much easier.

Here's what we have so far.

White:
AYE
BLACK
EYA
NO
ON

Black:
EYES
NOAYE
NONO
NOON
NOT
SAY
SEY
WHITE
YE
YEAH
YES
YESSIR

New guesses:
AYA
AYEAYE
EYE
YAS
YEA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 22, 2014, 09:55:13 PM
Just one long koan:
THISKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 22, 2014, 10:20:04 PM
OK Proxima, I'll do as you requested:

White:
YEA
THISKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE (The longer the word, the longer I take to work it out. :P)

Black:
AYA
AYEAYE
EYE
YAS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 22, 2014, 11:31:47 PM
No idea at all yet even with 3-letter words, here's a batch of koans in Deutsch.

KRAUT
UND
RUEBEN
DIE
LASS
LIEGEN
NAGETIER

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 23, 2014, 01:04:23 AM
Guess: A koan has the buddha-nature if the sum of its alphabetic values (A = 1, B = 2 etc) is prime. (Nepster's koan sums to 277, if my arithmetic is correct.)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Minim on September 23, 2014, 02:22:41 PM
Perfect Performance Proxima! (and Nepster's does indeed add up to 277)
As for the koans listed by Simon:

White
KRAUT = 71
NAGETIER = 79

The rest are black.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 23, 2014, 05:01:00 PM
All right then, round 15!  8)

A student asked the Master: Should those who seek the Way study the mathematics?

The Master replied:
EUCLID has the buddha nature.
EULER does not have the buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 23, 2014, 05:14:37 PM
Hmm, that is not yet a conclusive answer. So let's ask the Master about...
FERMAT
GAUSS
PYTHAGORAS
DESCARTES
GALOIS
HILBERT
WILES
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 23, 2014, 05:16:40 PM
Having buddha nature:
FERMAT
PYTHAGORAS
DESCARTES
GALOIS

Lacking buddha nature:
GAUSS
HILBERT
WILES
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 25, 2014, 12:38:02 AM
EULERSUM
CLAD
CANTOR
EUNTOR
HAUSDORFF

Guess: AHKTBN iff the length is not a prime number.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 01:52:40 AM
Having buddha nature:
CLAD
CANTOR
EUNTOR
HAUSDORFF

Lacking buddha nature:
EULERSUM

Quote from: Simon on 2014-09-24 18:38:02
Guess: AHKTBN iff the length is not a prime number.

This is incorrect. For example, MORIARTY does not have buddha nature, though 8 is clearly not prime.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 25, 2014, 09:05:50 AM
RE
ZENDO
ELEUSIS
PLAY
BY
FORUM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 03:10:45 PM
Having buddha nature:
PLAY

Lacking buddha nature:
RE
ZENDO
ELEUSIS
BY
FORUM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 25, 2014, 04:55:25 PM
AC
CA
NTOR
TORN
FMAT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 05:03:32 PM
Having buddha nature:
NTOR
TORN
FMAT

Lacking buddha nature:
AC
CA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 25, 2014, 07:01:17 PM
EU
CLID
LER
HAVING
LACKING
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 07:18:32 PM
Having buddha nature:
LER
CLID
HAVING (appropriately)

Lacking buddha nature:
EU
LACKING  :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 25, 2014, 07:46:15 PM
L
CID
TOR
TON
TRN
ORN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
Having buddha nature:
CID
TOR
TON
TRN
ORN

Lacking buddha nature:
L
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 25, 2014, 08:01:40 PM
LEMMINGSFORUMS
PLAYBYFORUM
HAVINGLACKING
BUDDHANATURE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 08:08:22 PM
^ All black.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 25, 2014, 08:30:27 PM
Then I guess that AKHTBN iff its length is 3, 4, 6, 9 or 10.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 08:38:31 PM
That is not correct. For example, BERTRANDRUSSELL does have buddha nature.

Added from chat:

Having buddha nature:
RHABARBAHARABAHARBARA
MAURITSCORNELISESCHER
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP
HONORIFICABILITUDINITATIS

Lacking buddha nature:
ABCDEFGH
AABBAABI
CCBBCCBI
MAAABBBI
DOUGLASHOFSTADTER
DOUGLASRHOFSTADTER
SIMONNXXXXXXX
Y
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQ
HONORIFICABILITUDINITATIBUS
RHUBARB
LADISLAUSBORTKIEWICZ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 25, 2014, 09:53:34 PM
Clam guessed the correct rule in chat. The length must be a square or triangular number, but not both.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 26, 2014, 09:09:08 AM
I even proposed a koan of length 36 just to be sure :)

---

New round:

ALABAMA has the buddha nature
and
MISSISSIPPI does not have the buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 26, 2014, 12:40:13 PM
AKHTBN iff there's only one unique letter of the alphabet having the most occurances in the koan.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on September 26, 2014, 01:14:22 PM
AKHTBN iff exactly one letter appears more than once in the koan.
AKHTBN iff at most one letter appears more than once in the koan.

PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 26, 2014, 07:34:51 PM
None of the guesses so far is correct. GEORGIA fits all of these rules but lacks buddha nature.


Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 27, 2014, 06:18:55 PM
Enough American placenames, let's try some Japanese ones  :P

AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 27, 2014, 07:59:21 PM
A
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 27, 2014, 08:11:38 PM
Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA
AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
A
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 29, 2014, 08:15:44 PM
Did everyone suddenly lose interest in the game? ??? If you want to move on to Eleusis now, just say so. If we do, I'd actually prefer a separate thread for it (despite the title of this one) so both games can run at once.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on September 29, 2014, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: Clam on 2014-09-29 14:15:44
Did everyone suddenly lose interest in the game?
No, I am just very busy with work right now. Nevertheless I am not against moving on to Eleusis, at least after finishing this round of Zendo.

New Zendo-koans:
BLM
BML
LMB
MBL
BLM
ABA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 29, 2014, 10:56:45 PM
I was just reluctant to take two consecutive turns  :P

I have no objection to starting an Eleusis thread, but honestly, it doesn't sound like as interesting a game (in its online form) so I hope the Zendo thread stays active as well.

ASAKO
LJUBLJANA
LABURNUM
BIRMINGHAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 30, 2014, 07:36:30 AM
Sorry to be so impatient, I just don't want the game to die now that I finally get one going ;)

Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA
AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA
BLM (listed twice :))

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
A
BML
LMB
MBL
ABA
ASAKO
LJUBLJANA
LABURNUM
BIRMINGHAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 30, 2014, 12:30:15 PM
BLAM
CLAM
SPAM
EGG
AND
LEMMING  :P
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on September 30, 2014, 05:19:49 PM
AA
AAA

this is getting interesting

DLAM
ELAM
FLAM
GLAM
HAM
JAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: geoo on September 30, 2014, 05:34:29 PM
MLB
BLT
LOBSTER
THERMIDOR
ASAKA
ASAKUSO
AZA
AZZA
AZZZA
AZZZZA
BZB
BZZB
BZZZB

EDIT: And I support Eleusis being in a different thread.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on September 30, 2014, 07:55:37 PM
Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA
AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA
BLM
EGG
AAA
HAM
JAM
BLT
ASAKA
AZZA
AZZZA
AZZZZA
BZZB
BZZZB

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
A
BML
LMB
MBL
ABA
ASAKO
LJUBLJANA
LABURNUM
BIRMINGHAM
BLAM
CLAM
SPAM
AND
LEMMING
AA
DLAM
ELAM
FLAM
GLAM
MLB
LOBSTER
THERMIDOR
ASAKUSO
AZA
BZB
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on October 03, 2014, 10:52:23 AM
AS
FB
WX
GP
EB
QL
RC
ZZ
VN
AL
EP
MN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 03, 2014, 02:11:16 PM
LAM
LAMB
LUM
ABBA
ALBA
ALMA
LAMA
LLAMA
ELAN
FLAN
ALAN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on October 03, 2014, 07:20:48 PM
Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA
AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA
BLM
EGG
AAA
HAM
JAM
BLT
ASAKA
AZZA
AZZZA
AZZZZA
BZZB
BZZZB
LAM
ABBA
ALBA

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
A
BML
LMB
MBL
ABA
ASAKO
LJUBLJANA
LABURNUM
BIRMINGHAM
BLAM
CLAM
SPAM
AND
LEMMING
AA
DLAM
ELAM
FLAM
GLAM
MLB
LOBSTER
THERMIDOR
ASAKUSO
AZA
BZB
AS
FB
WX
GP
EB
QL
RC
ZZ
VN
AL
EP
MN
LAMB
LUM
ALMA
LAMA
LLAMA
ELAN
FLAN
ALAN
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on October 03, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
BBB
BCB
BDB
AZZB
BZZA
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on October 03, 2014, 08:52:17 PM
Having buddha nature:
ALABAMA
AKASAKA
ASAKUSA
AZABUJUBAN
AAAA
LBM
ALBMA
ALABA
BLM
EGG
AAA
HAM
JAM
BLT
ASAKA
AZZA
AZZZA
AZZZZA
BZZB
BZZZB
LAM
ABBA
ALBA
BBB
AZZB
BZZA

Lacking buddha nature:
MISSISSIPI
GEORGIA
PORCUPINE
KOANPINE
PINECONE
CONECONE
INVISIBLE
I
OSAKA
HINAMIZAWA
A
BML
LMB
MBL
ABA
ASAKO
LJUBLJANA
LABURNUM
BIRMINGHAM
BLAM
CLAM
SPAM
AND
LEMMING
AA
DLAM
ELAM
FLAM
GLAM
MLB
LOBSTER
THERMIDOR
ASAKUSO
AZA
BZB
AS
FB
WX
GP
EB
QL
RC
ZZ
VN
AL
EP
MN
LAMB
LUM
ALMA
LAMA
LLAMA
ELAN
FLAN
ALAN
BCB
BDB
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Timballisto on October 07, 2014, 01:58:09 AM
DIRIGIBLE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on October 07, 2014, 10:57:14 AM
^ lacks Buddha nature
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on October 07, 2014, 05:10:05 PM
AAM
AMM
RAM
BAM
CAM
ZAM
YAM
XAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on October 07, 2014, 07:20:51 PM
Having buddha nature:
AAM
AMM
BAM
CAM

Lacking buddha nature:
RAM
ZAM
YAM
XAM

I'll stop posting the full list every time, for now.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Nepster on October 07, 2014, 07:38:41 PM
MAN
NAM
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on October 07, 2014, 07:44:40 PM
MAN has buddha nature, NAM does not.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on April 26, 2015, 12:14:27 PM
Half a year after thread activity, I think it's safe to ask for the solution. :lix-blush:

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on April 26, 2015, 07:06:57 PM
Ah yes, this game still exists... :lix-tongue:


The rule was: AKHTBN iff the 3rd letter matches the 3rd letter in alphabetical order (and the koan has at least 3 letters).

So for example (going back to the initial koans):
ALABAMA – AAAABLM has buddha nature
MISSISSIPPI – IIIIMPPSSSS lacks buddha nature


Floor is open, let's revive this great forum game! :lix-grin:
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: 607 on April 27, 2015, 05:56:22 AM
Oh, that's a good one!
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 22, 2015, 02:29:22 PM
Hm, been a while and no one's started a new round? I might as well give it a go, then...

Examples of white koans (has Buddha nature):
FIRE
MIGHTY

Examples of black koans (does not have Buddha nature):
FIRES
MIGHT

Good luck. :)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 22, 2015, 05:45:40 PM
FIREY
FIREQ
FIREQUISITE
FIR

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 22, 2015, 09:56:41 PM
MIGHTS
NIGHT
FIGHT
MIRE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2015, 01:49:23 AM
Lacks the Buddha nature:
FIREY
FIREQ
FIREQUISITE
FIR
NIGHT
FIGHT

Has the Buddha nature:
MIGHTS
MIRE
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 27, 2015, 04:21:49 AM
Let's keep this going. Here's a few more examples:

Lacks the Buddha nature:
DOGS
MEANT
SITES
FREAKY
GAMER

Has the Buddha nature:
DOG
MEAN
SITE
FREAK
GAMING

(Hm, I am kinda wondering if I made this one a bit too tricky...)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 27, 2015, 06:44:46 PM
Koan list formatter is in the attachment. Needs a compiler for the D Programming Language to run. Read the attached file for detailed instructions.

DOGE
DOGTOR
MIGHTYMIGHTYMIGTHY
MIGHTYFREAKY
MIGHTYDOGGY

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 27, 2015, 08:16:50 PM
DOGSS
DOGSSS
DOGT
GAME
FIRER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 27, 2015, 09:11:04 PM
Has the Buddha nature:
DOG
FIRE
FREAK
GAMING
MEAN
MIGHTS
MIGHTY
MIRE
SITE
DOGSSS
GAME

Lacks the Buddha nature:
DOGS
FIGHT
FIR
FIREQ
FIREQUISITE
FIRES
FIREY
FREAKY
GAMER
MEANT
MIGHT
NIGHT
SITES
DOGE
DOGTOR
MIGHTYFREAKY
MIGHTYDOGGY
DOGSS
DOGT
FIRER
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 27, 2015, 09:54:28 PM
So DOG passes, but not DOGS or DOGSS, then again DOGSSS passes.

New koans:
S
SS
SSS
MIGHTYS
MIGHTYSSS
DOGSSSS
FREAKKK
MIGHTYMIGHTYMIGHTY

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 27, 2015, 10:03:29 PM
GAMES
GAMERS
GAMESS
GAMESSS
FIREQQ
FIREQQQ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 27, 2015, 10:06:45 PM
Rule guess:
Convert letters in koans to numbers (A = 1, B = 2, ...), sum all resulting numbers. Koan is buddha iff total is divisible by 3.

I have only checked DOGS, which adds to 45, so it's worth a try. Adding 3 of the same letter will not change status apparently.

Oh my. DOG was the passing one, not DOGS.

Some new test koans instead:
GOD
DOGC
DOGCC
DOGA
DOGAA

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 27, 2015, 10:13:20 PM
Has TBN:
SSS
GAMERS
GAMESS
GOD

Lacks TBN:
S
SS
MIGHTYS
MIGHTYSSS
DOGSSSS
FREAKKK
MIGHTYMIGHTYMIGHTY
GAMES
GAMESSS
FIREQQQ
DOGC
DOGCC
DOGA
DOGAA


I'll give you one more based on that suggestion (mainly because I checked it due to misreading yours): FIREQQQQ has the Buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 27, 2015, 10:49:09 PM
DOGAAA
DOGRST
GAMERST
DOGF
DOGI
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 27, 2015, 11:15:26 PM
HTBN:
DOGAAA

LTBN:
DOGRST
GAMERST
DOGF
DOGI

I'll drop another hint (or rather, give an infinite number of white koans):
All sequences consisting of multiple As in a row and nothing else, have the Buddha nature, except for A and AA. (Though as you can clearly see, those aren't the only koans that have it.)
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 28, 2015, 12:07:44 AM
New koans:
AKALAZAM
EERIE
POOL
FRQQQQ
SMIGHT
GITSMH

Rambling: Koans don't seem to depend on order of letters. Having the same letter make up at exactly half of the koan seems to makes stuff correct. Strange: Freak good, and Freaky bad. Mighty good, and Might bad. "mainly because I checked it due to misreading yours" -> buddha nature depends on some nonintuitive algorithm, at least it's not decidable on first sight, in 1-2 seconds.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 28, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
HTBN:
AKALAZAM
SMIGHT
GITSMH

LTBN:
EERIE
POOL
FRQQQQ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 28, 2015, 12:42:58 AM
DUG
DIG
ZIX
YIU
HOT
HPT
TTT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 28, 2015, 12:46:47 AM
HTBN :D
DUG
DIG
YIU

LTBN :'(
ZIX
HOT
HPT
TTT
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 28, 2015, 01:09:01 AM
TTT black is interesting. Here's the sorted list, so others can hack on while I'm sleeping.

See my last post in this round for the updated sorted list.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 28, 2015, 12:45:45 PM
SSSS
Q
QQ
QQQ
QQQQ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 28, 2015, 07:18:27 PM
HTBN:
QQQQ

LTBN:
SSSS
Q
QQ
QQQ
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on May 29, 2015, 11:01:14 PM
BBB
CCC
DDD
EEE
FFF
QQQQQ
CLAM
SPAM
LIX
WHITE
BLACK
TW
OL
ET
TE
RK
OA
NS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 31, 2015, 12:20:55 AM
HTBN:
DDD
CLAM
SPAM

LTBN:
BBB
CCC
EEE
FFF
QQQQQ
LIX
WHITE
BLACK
TW
OL
ET
TE
RK
OA
NS
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 31, 2015, 12:45:36 AM
RS
Y
QQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQ
KLZM
TTTT
SPAMGOD

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 31, 2015, 12:57:50 AM
HTBN:
QQQQQQQQ

LTBN:
RS
Y
QQQQQQ
KLZM
TTTT
SPAMGOD
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on May 31, 2015, 01:09:16 AM
GIT
SMH
GAM
ING
FIQQ
REQQ
HOTLIX
DOGENIGHT
BLACKPOOL
MIGHTYMIGHTY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 31, 2015, 02:03:02 AM
HTBN:
SMH
GAM
FIQQ
REQQ

LTBN:
GIT
ING
HOTLIX
DOGENIGHT
BLACKPOOL
MIGHTYMIGHTY
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on May 31, 2015, 03:30:06 AM
RIFE
GYMHIT
AMEN
MEGA
QQQQFIRE
GNIGMA
LOOP
RMEGA
SERIF
THMIG
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 31, 2015, 04:13:19 AM
TTTTT
BBBB
BBBBB
BBBBBB
Q{12} <-- exactly 12 letters Q
Q{16}

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 31, 2015, 06:32:57 AM
HTBN:
RIFE
GYMHIT
AMEN
MEGA
QQQQFIRE
GNIGMA
Q{16}

LTBN:
LOOP
RMEGA
THMIG
TTTTT
BBBB
BBBBB
BBBBBB
Q{12}
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Clam on May 31, 2015, 08:15:56 AM
DDDD
DDDDD
DDDDDD
SSSSS
SSSSSS
GGG
HHH

(also, you missed SERIF ;))
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 31, 2015, 08:18:29 AM
HTBN:
GGG
SSSSSS

LTBN:
SERIF
DDDD
DDDDD
DDDDDD
SSSSS
HHH
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 02, 2015, 06:31:02 AM
The work has come to a halt again. I'd like additional hints. Let's see whether Proxima and Clam barge in and don't want hints. :-)

Complete list of koans are in my latest post before this one.

Current ideas: Anything < 3 letters is black. Some letters allow same-letter koans, others don't. The allowed length varies highly. The status is independent of anagramming.

I have shoved the koans through a number-crunching script (http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/zendo-reduced.txt), but didn't see any pattern. The script converts letters into numbers, sorts, and adds them.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 02, 2015, 06:45:08 AM
In response to your current ideas:

Spoiler
Anything < 3 letters is black
This is completely correct.

Some letters allow same-letter koans, others don't
Not true. All letters are possible to come up with a koan that contains them multiple times; in fact, there are only two letters for which a white koan cannot be made that consists of nothing but the same letter repeated multiple times.

The allowed length varies highly
Not true. As the example with A suggests, there is no maximum length of a valid koan. There is no length where a long string of As is the only valid koan of that length.

The status is independent of anagramming
This is not true in 100% of cases. To give a counterexample:
TMI and TIM are black koans
MIT and MTI are white koans
However, it is true in the majority of cases.

If you'd like a major hint:
Spoiler
Something that has been suggested before is at least on the right track. However, it may help to re-imagine that solution as if you were a computer rather than a human. This alone will not solve the puzzle, but will get you much closer.
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 02, 2015, 12:13:08 PM
SSSSSSSSS (nine)
QQQ...QQQ (65536)
QQQ...QQQ (65537)
RST
FIRST
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 02, 2015, 12:44:11 PM
HTBN:
S{9}

LTBN:
Q{65536}
Q{65537}
RST
FIRST


@Simon: Do you have some kind of script you're using to make those formatted lists?
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 02, 2015, 12:47:08 PM
Theory: Single-letter koans with a letter other than A have the buddha-nature if and only if the length is a factor of (the letter's alphabetic position - 1).
Title: Re: Zendo/Eleusis, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 02, 2015, 12:54:12 PM
I think you meant "if (the letter's alphabetic position - 1) is a factor of the length", but yes, I certianly cannot think of any counter-example to that theory, even though it isn't an explicit part of the rule as such. Of course, it isn't quite a solution, since it doesn't account for koans that don't consist solely of a single letter repeated multiple times.

EDIT: No, I think your wording might be the correct one. I'm bad with technical mathematics terms. But if I'm understanding you correctly, then yes, your theory is still correct.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 08, 2015, 01:02:06 AM
No?

Let id0 be the function on single letters that maps A to 0, B to 1, C to 2, ..., Z to 25.

Then Proxima's half-rule states: For each letter c that is not A, a koan that contains exactly n >= 3 copies of c [and nothing else, EDIT Simon after namida's reply] is buddha iff id0(c) divides n. Equivalently, that koan is budda iff there exists a natural number m with id0(c) * m = n.

The marked koans violate this, because the koan BBB is black. (Everything of the form B{n} with n >= 3 appers to be black.) Also, namida mentioned there exist two letters, such that koans consisting only of copies of that letter are always black.

Noes, I can't read properly. n divides id0(c) is the claim. That would make B and C the two letters that make only black same-letter koans.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 08, 2015, 02:59:25 AM
The way you've worded it sounds like it applies to any koan that contains the letter that number of times. This is true when they contain nothing else but that letter X number of times, but not always true if they contain other letters as well. This doesn't mean that such a koan will never be white, though.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 08, 2015, 03:18:28 AM
Right. Edited.

My instinct was to avoid a weird mix of regular expressions and math, but it's probably the only concise notation. >_> Let c be a letter, n >= 3. Then c{n}, which denotes n times the token c, is white iff n divides id0(c). This is true even for A, B, C, because no number >= 3 divides 1 or 2, and all numbers divide 0.

Having this for same-letter koans, there is obviously some magic happening at 3, and some method to mangle non-same-letter koans. The given example koans for anagram-changes-buddha were 3 letters long.

New koans:

SOMETHINGDDD
MIGHTYDDD
MIGHTYCC
ABC
BAC
AYZ
ZYA
YAZ
BCD

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 08, 2015, 03:28:56 AM
White:
ABC
AYZ
ZYA
YAZ

Black:
SOMETHINGDDD
MIGHTYDDD
MIGHTYCC
BAC
BCD
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on June 08, 2015, 09:00:23 AM
What about the empty koan, have we had that one yet? Or was it perhaps explicitly forbidden at some point?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 08, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
The general rules of the game define it as always black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 08, 2015, 09:21:42 AM
The general rules of the game disallow the empty koan. It's not part of the koanspace.

The reason is pragmatic: In the tabletop game, a marked empty koan looks like a stray marking stone.

Allowing the empty koan is a minor variant, and it doesn't affect the game. If you want to test the empty koan, then do it. Secret rules can be evaluated on the empty koan in the normal fashion. ("The X is Y" fails if there are no X, or if there are more than one X, or if there is exactly one X that is not Y.)

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 08, 2015, 09:57:56 AM
If you wanted to evaluate that, then on this, the empty koan would be black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 08, 2015, 12:06:13 PM
RTS
STR
BCA
MIGHTYQQQQ
MIGHTYGGGGGG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 08, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
White:
STR

Black:
RTS
BCA
MIGHTYQQQQ
MIGHTYGGGGGG


Maybe I should drop a few more hints...
Spoiler
1. Koans of a length less than 3 letters are explicitly defined as black by the rule; it's not just a side effect of the rules.
2. Anagrams will never have a different status if the first letter remains unchanged (but will not always have a different status just because the first letter is changed).
3. Except for koans of a length less than 3 letters, no black koans exist where at least half the letters are A.
4. There is no explicitly-defined special treatment of A in the rule. (There is no loophole going on here along the lines of "B, C, D, ... X, Y and Z have explicitly-defined special treatment", either.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 09, 2015, 12:14:50 AM
Koan list only.

White koans:
AAA(A*)   DOGSSS    GAMING  MIRE      SPAM
ABC       DUG       GGG     QQQQ      SSS
AKALAZAM  FIQQ      GITSMH  QQQQFIRE  SSSSSS
AMEN      FIRE      GNIGMA  QQQQQQQQ  STR
AYZ       FIREQQQQ  GOD     Q{16}     S{9}
CLAM      FREAK     GYMHIT  REQQ      YAZ
DDD       GAM       MEAN    RIFE      YIU
DIG       GAME      MEGA    SITE      ZYA
DOG       GAMERS    MIGHTS  SMH
DOGAAA    GAMESS    MIGHTY  SMIGHT

Black koans:
A          DOGCC      FIREQQQ      ING                 OA        SITES
AA         DOGE       FIREQUISITE  KLZM                OL        SOMETHINGDDD
BAC        DOGENIGHT  FIRER        LIX                 POOL      SPAMGOD
BBB        DOGF       FIRES        LOOP                Q         SS
BBBB       DOGI       FIREY        MEANT               QQ        SSSS
BBBBB      DOGRST     FIRST        MIGHT               QQQ       SSSSS
BBBBBB     DOGS       FREAKKK      MIGHTYCC            QQQQQ     TE
BCA        DOGSS      FREAKY       MIGHTYDDD           QQQQQQ    THMIG
BCD        DOGSSSS    FRQQQQ       MIGHTYDOGGY         Q{12}     TTT
BLACK      DOGT       GAMER        MIGHTYFREAKY        Q{65536}  TTTT
BLACKPOOL  DOGTOR     GAMERST      MIGHTYGGGGGG        Q{65537}  TTTTT
CCC        EEE        GAMES        MIGHTYMIGHTY        RK        TW
DDDD       EERIE      GAMESSS      MIGHTYMIGHTYMIGHTY  RMEGA     WHITE
DDDDD      ET         GIT          MIGHTYQQQQ          RS        Y
DDDDDD     FFF        HHH          MIGHTYS             RST       ZIX
DOGA       FIGHT      HOT          MIGHTYSSS           RTS
DOGAA      FIR        HOTLIX       NIGHT               S
DOGC       FIREQ      HPT          NS                  SERIF

(x)* is a repetition of (x) 0 or more times.
(x){n} is a repetition of (x) exactly n times.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 09, 2015, 11:16:29 PM
Funny time to drop extra hints, when the game has started to move again after a lull. If no-one posted for a few days, then you'd have every reason to think we might need a bit of help.

SUQ
GGGGGGMIGHTY
MIGHTYYYYYYY
MIGHTZZZZZ
EEEEFIRE
IIIIFIRE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 10, 2015, 04:10:06 AM
White:
SUQ
MIGHTYYYYYYY
IIIIFIRE

Black:
GGGGGGMIGHTY
MIGHTZZZZZ
EEEEFIRE


The reason I thought to drop the hints is that we'd only had a small number of guesses since that lull, only one of which was a white koan. :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 10, 2015, 04:21:49 PM
Hmm. I had an idea while I was swimming today, but now I look back, it doesn't quite fit everything so far. Still, I suspect it's close.

Theory: Length must be at least 3, and must be a factor of (alphabetic position - 1) of the most common letter. If multiple letters occur as the most common, the first appearing in the koan is the one that counts.

The following koans are the only ones so far that don't fit this rule:

white -- rule predicts black
FIRE
GAME
RIFE
SITE
SPAM
ZYA

black -- rule predicts white
FIREQ
FIRES
FIREY
FIRST
GIT
MIGHTYMIGHTY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 11, 2015, 03:41:47 PM
It's on the right track. (alphabetic position - 1) definitely does have something to do with it, as does factors of the length, but most common letter does not - however, thinking about that might lead you to the correct answer.

I would mention that one thing I previously stated would contradict your theory - that in the case of anagrams, the status won't change unless the first letter changes. Thus (ignoring all other elements but the most common letter thing), your theory would suggest ABBCC and ACCBB could possibly have a different outcome; but they could not as the first letter is unchanged. However, ABBCC and CCABB possibly could.

(For the record, all four of those example koans are, in fact, black.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 14, 2015, 03:23:12 PM
Hm... gone quiet again. Maybe I should follow Proxima's suggestion and use times like this to drop a hint...

In fact, no. I'll drop part (albeit a minor part) of the rule.

Spoiler
Except for the purpose of "what is the length of the koan", one part of the rule can be thought of as "count the first letter twice". This is why a different first letter can impact the black/white status of a koan, but anagramming the rest of the koan (while keeping the first letter unchanged) cannot.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 18, 2015, 08:06:03 PM
Is it safe to say people have given up on this one?

If we go a couple days more without much interest, I'll reveal the rule, and someone else can make another round (or perhaps I'll do one with a simpler rule).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 19, 2015, 01:52:42 PM
I'd lean towards ending the game, too.

It is common for new masters to make rules too hard on accident. You have noticed this surprisingly early, and then handled it really well by offering hints or an early end. It's much better this way than attempting to change the secret rule mid-game.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 02:49:18 PM
Okay well,

The rule was:
Assigning each letter a number, where A = 0, B = 1 etc, a koan of at least three letters is white if the quantity of letters who's numbers are integer multiples of the length is equal or greater than the quantity of letters that are not, with the first letter being counted twice if it is a multiple.


If no one else wants to take the next game, I have an idea for a not-so-complicated rule. :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: 607 on June 19, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
I've reread that rule like five times, but I still don't really get it :confused:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 04:10:16 PM
I'll go next, since I at least got closer than anyone else :P

EVEN has the Buddha-nature.
ODD does not have the Buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 04:17:33 PM
EVAN
EVIN
EVON
EVUN
OOD
DDO
NEVE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 04:19:37 PM
White:
EVEN
NEVE

Black:
DDO
EVAN
EVIN
EVON
EVUN
ODD
OOD
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on June 19, 2015, 04:33:15 PM
EE
NN
VV
EVE
NEV
NEVER
GIVE
UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 04:35:53 PM
Asked and answered in chat: all anagrams of "EVEN" have the buddha-nature.

White:
EE
EVE
NN
NEVER
VV

Black:
DDO
EVAN
EVIN
EVON
EVUN
GIVE
NEV
ODD
OOD
UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 04:51:19 PM
EEVEE
SEE
EAGER
EEL
PETER
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 04:53:48 PM
White:
EAGER
EE
EEL
EVE
EVEN (and all anagrams of EVEN)
NN
NEVER
PETER
SEE
VV

Black:
DDO
EEVEE
EVAN
EVIN
EVON
EVUN
GIVE
NEV
ODD
OOD
UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
ART
ANIMA
ISIS
INDICATING
POLONIUM
HOMOPHONE
ENEMY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 05:00:25 PM
White:
ART
EAGER
EE
EEL
EVE
EVEN (and all anagrams of EVEN)
INDICATING
NN
NEVER
PETER
SEE
VV

Black:
ANIMA
DDO
EEVEE
ENEMY
EVAN
EVIN
EVON
EVUN
GIVE
HOMOPHONE
ISIS
NEV
ODD
OOD
POLONIUM
UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 05:03:34 PM
Rule guess: Every vowel that is in the koan must occur an equal number of times to its ordinal value (ie. 1x A, 2x E, etc).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 05:05:25 PM
Well, that was a quick round  :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 05:07:43 PM
Wait, ahouldn't that mean ENEMY is white? Unless you also count 6x Y.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 05:10:03 PM
Yes, Y counts as a vowel in this rule. I assumed you'd included the ENEMY guess specifically to check whether this was the case or not.

(Bonus puzzle: what are the first three positive integers whose English names are white with this rule?)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
Three, seven, twelve. :)

I'll start a new round soon.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 05:12:52 PM
Oops, I forgot twelve. :P Then what's the next?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 05:20:25 PM
No idea. :P I'm sure I could get it quickly if I wrote a code snippet to work it out, but that defeats the purpose (plus then there's the question of how exactly one words them - "One Hundred And Twelve"? "A Hundred And Twelve"? "Hundred And Twelve"? etc).

Anyway, let's start a new round. :) And I promise the rule is much simpler this time.

White:
RATE

Black:
RAGE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 19, 2015, 05:22:46 PM
TEAR
RARE
ATE
AGE
GREAT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 19, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
White:
ATE
RARE
RATE

Black:
AGE
GREAT
RAGE
TEAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 20, 2015, 07:29:15 PM
ATG
ATT
RAG
RASE
RAT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 20, 2015, 07:31:33 PM
White:
ATE
ATG
ATT
RARE
RASE
RAT
RATE

Black:
AGE
GREAT
RAG
RAGE
TEAR

EDIT: Made a mistake before. ATT is white, not black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 22, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
EAT
RAGG
RAHE
SAGE
SATE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 23, 2015, 12:14:44 AM
First test of generating a formatted list with my new app...

White Koans
ATE      ATT      RASE     RATE     
ATG      RARE     RAT      SATE     

Black Koans
AGE      RAG      RAHE              
EAT      RAGE     SAGE              
GREAT    RAGG     TEAR             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on June 24, 2015, 02:36:23 PM
Let's drop a hint... a very minor one to start with.

Spoiler
All black koans are at least two letters long.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 16, 2015, 04:49:41 AM
Dust off the Delphi koanizer for...

AAA
ABC
ACB
BAC
AAAA
AAAAA

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 16, 2015, 06:15:59 AM
Shit. I'm not even sure if I remember the rule anymore. I think I know what it was, gimme a sec to run through the list and see.
EDIT: Yep, okay, I remember the rule now. Gimme a sec to dig up the app, now... (wonder if I still have that...?)

EDIT: Yes! Still got the tool too. (Wasn't sure, due to a computer replacement in the recent past; but that was obviously before I made the tool. Either that or I actually copied a random two-second throw-together app that's in a place I don't usually keep source code. xD)

White Koans
AAA      ATE      RARE     RATE     
AAAA     ATG      RASE     SATE     
AAAAA    ATT      RAT               

Black Koans
ABC      BAC      RAG      RAHE     
ACB      EAT      RAGE     SAGE     
AGE      GREAT    RAGG     TEAR     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 16, 2015, 06:42:00 AM
BBBBB
TTTTT
ASE
AUE
AREAT
AAEAT
AAAAT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 16, 2015, 06:44:03 AM
White Koans
AAA      ASE      AUE      RAT     
AAAA     ATE      BBBBB    RATE     
AAAAA    ATG      RARE     SATE     
AAAAT    ATT      RASE     TTTTT   

Black Koans
AAEAT    AREAT    RAG      SAGE     
ABC      BAC      RAGE     TEAR     
ACB      EAT      RAGG             
AGE      GREAT    RAHE             

Hm... given that people gave up on this one for a while, should I consider dropping another hint...?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 16, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Hints: Hnn no. The game is reasonably early, and there are patterns to explore. People may have grown bored of the game, but don't seem to be out of ideas.

RAE
AE
RE
RARERARE
AAATT
ATEAR
ARARE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 16, 2015, 01:57:09 PM
White Koans
AAA         ARARE       AUE         RAT         
AAAA        ASE         BBBBB       RATE       
AAAAA       ATE         RARE        RE         
AAAAT       ATG         RARERARE    SATE       
AAATT       ATT         RASE        TTTTT       

Black Koans
AAEAT       AREAT       RAE         SAGE       
ABC         ATEAR       RAG         TEAR       
ACB         BAC         RAGE                   
AE          EAT         RAGG                   
AGE         GREAT       RAHE                   

(Sorry, last entries' ones are still bolded here... forgot to click the button to clear them from the "New" list and am too lazy to manually edit it... xD)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 16, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
GATE
RATEG
EATE
EEEEE
EGG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 16, 2015, 09:47:39 PM
White Koans
AAA         ASE         EEEEE       RE         
AAAA        ATE         RARE        SATE       
AAAAA       ATG         RARERARE    TTTTT       
AAAAT       ATT         RASE                   
AAATT       AUE         RAT                     
ARARE       BBBBB       RATE                   

Black Koans
AAEAT       ATEAR       GREAT       RATEG       
ABC         BAC         RAE         SAGE       
ACB         EAT         RAG         TEAR       
AE          EATE        RAGE                   
AGE         EGG         RAGG                   
AREAT       GATE        RAHE                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 17, 2015, 03:42:26 AM
ATATA
AERR
CC
RATEE
RATEEE
RATEEEE
RATEZ
RATEZZ
RATEZZZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 17, 2015, 06:31:04 PM
White Koans
AAA         ATE         RARERARE    RATEZZ     
AAAA        ATG         RASE        RATEZZZ     
AAAAA       ATT         RAT         RE         
AAAAT       AUE         RATE        SATE       
AAATT       BBBBB       RATEE       TTTTT       
ARARE       CC          RATEEE                 
ASE         EEEEE       RATEEEE                
ATATA       RARE        RATEZ                  

Black Koans
AAEAT       AREAT       GATE        RAHE       
ABC         ATEAR       GREAT       RATEG       
ACB         BAC         RAE         SAGE       
AE          EAT         RAG         TEAR       
AERR        EATE        RAGE                   
AGE         EGG         RAGG                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 20, 2015, 03:04:30 PM
Seems to have died off again, so here's a hint...

Spoiler
Any substring of a white koan will also be a white koan.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 25, 2015, 06:27:03 PM
Guess: a koan has the buddha-nature if, for every two letters consecutive within the koan, they are either identical or else are from opposite halves of the alphabet (A-M and N-Z).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on October 25, 2015, 06:30:26 PM
Congratulations, that's correct! :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 25, 2015, 06:35:11 PM
That was a tough one -- but the hints were very helpful!

My turn now.....

BUBBLE has the Buddha-nature
WRAP does not have the Buddha-nature
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 25, 2015, 06:44:42 PM
BUBBLEWRAP
WRAPBUBBLE
BULE
BU
B
ARPR
BBBELU
BELU

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 25, 2015, 06:48:56 PM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
WRAPBUBBLE

Black:
WRAP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 25, 2015, 06:51:17 PM
W
WRA
WRAPPER
WRAPWRAP

XRAP

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 25, 2015, 06:53:13 PM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPPER

Black:
APRW
W
WRAP
WRAPWRAP
XRAP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 26, 2015, 05:18:55 PM
YRAP
V
N
M
WW
WRAB

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 26, 2015, 06:11:19 PM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPPER
YRAP

Black:
APRW
M
N
V
W
WRAB
WRAP
WRAPWRAP
WW
XRAP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on October 27, 2015, 02:33:45 PM
O
OZ
OZZ
OZZZ
BZZZZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on October 27, 2015, 05:50:32 PM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
BZZZZ
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPPER
YRAP

Black:
APRW
H
M
N
O
OZ
OZZ
OZZZ
V
W
WRAB
WRAP
WRAPWRAP
WW
X
XRAP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2015, 03:01:36 PM
The joys of debugging.

Y
YR
YRA

WRAPPE
WRAPP

UBBLE
ULE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2015, 09:09:48 PM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
BZZZZ
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPP
WRAPPER
Y
YRAP

Black:
APRW
H
M
N
O
OZ
OZZ
OZZZ
UBBLE
ULE
V
W
WRAB
WRAP
WRAPPE
WRAPWRAP
WW
X
XRAP
YR
YRA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 10, 2015, 09:59:19 PM
Wild speculation, which shall not provoke hints, but which people love to read anyway:

* Order of letters doesn't seem to matter
* Symmetry of individual letters seems to play a role.
* If you can mirror letters vertically (B, E), it tends to make koans white. Vertical mirroring means there is a horizontal axis of symmetry.
* Horizontal symmetry, or both symmetry axes present (W, V, H, X, O) don't contribute or maybe make actively black. If there is something to this hunch, then probably both axes present makes them cancel out each other.

Guess: AKHTBN iff count(vertical-symmetric letters = horizontal axis of symmetry) > count(horizontal-symmetric letters = vertical axis of symmetry). <-- Fails for WRAPPER, which is white.

WRAP black, WRAPP white. Also Y white.

New koans:

UBLE
BBELU
YO
YOO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2015, 04:09:31 AM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
BZZZZ
UBLE
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPP
WRAPPER
Y
YO
YOO
YRAP

Black:
APRW
BBELU
H
M
N
O
OZ
OZZ
OZZZ
UBBLE
ULE
V
W
WRAB
WRAP
WRAPPE
WRAPWRAP
WW
X
XRAP
YR
YRA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 11, 2015, 09:52:14 PM
BB
BBBB
BBBBB
YY
BY
A
R
LU

Attached is the koan formatter with a batch file. How to use:
-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 12, 2015, 12:13:41 AM
White:
ARPR
B
BBBBB
BBBELU
BELU
BU
BUBBLE
BUBBLEWRAP
BULE
BZZZZ
LU
R
UBLE
WRA
WRAPBUBBLE
WRAPP
WRAPPER
Y
YO
YOO
YRAP

Black:
A
APRW
BB
BBBB
BBELU
BY
H
M
N
O
OZ
OZZ
OZZZ
UBBLE
ULE
V
W
WRAB
WRAP
WRAPPE
WRAPWRAP
WW
X
XRAP
YR
YRA
YY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 12, 2015, 07:05:53 AM
If you prefer a GUI-based tool that makes a list with multiple rows, here's my tool. Windows-only, although I would be very surprised if it didn't work perfectly under WINE. It does require manually saving / loading the files.

As for this round itself... I'm clueless.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Clam on December 12, 2015, 09:25:06 AM
RR
RRR
YYY
OO
OOO
XX
XXX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 12, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
Awesome, thanks namida! :thumbsup:

White Koans
ARPR          BUBBLE        RRR           Y             
B             BUBBLEWRAP    UBLE          YO           
BBBBB         BULE          WRA           YOO           
BBBELU        BZZZZ         WRAPBUBBLE    YRAP         
BELU          LU            WRAPP         YYY           
BU            R             WRAPPER                     

Black Koans
A             N             UBBLE         WW           
APRW          O             ULE           X             
BB            OO            V             XRAP         
BBBB          OOO           W             XX           
BBELU         OZ            WRAB          YR           
BY            OZZ           WRAP          YRA           
H             OZZZ          WRAPPE        YY           
M             RR            WRAPWRAP      XXX           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 04:16:25 PM
Simon got the rule in chat. A koan has the buddha nature if and only if it contains an odd number of vertical line segments; equivalently, an odd number of letters from the class {B, D, E, F, G, I, J, K, L, P, R, T, Y}.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 05:43:03 PM
I was shying away from testing single letters, because I believed that the exising koans were already disproving such a two-class theory already. Checking again, they didn't, which led to the solution.

Thanks for being quick to mark at all times, even after a long hiatus!

New round:

ENOUGHTHINGS are white.
OTHERSTUFF is black.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 05:46:53 PM
Hmm, quite complex starting koans, so let's break them down a bit....

ENOUGH
THINGS
OTHER
STUFF
ENOUGHSTUFF
OTHERTHINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 05:49:54 PM
White koans:
ENOUGH
ENOUGHSTUFF
ENOUGHTHINGS

Black koans:
OTHERSTUFF
OTHERTHINGS
STUFF
THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 05:51:58 PM
E
EN
ENO
ENOU
ENOUG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 05:54:02 PM
White koans:
E
EN
ENO
ENOU
ENOUG
ENOUGH
ENOUGHSTUFF
ENOUGHTHINGS

Black koans:
OTHERSTUFF
OTHERTHINGS
STUFF
THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 05:56:12 PM
ESTUFF
ETHINGS
ONOUGH
FNOUGH
FSTUFF
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 05:58:59 PM
White koans:
E       ENOUGHSTUFF
EN      ENOUGHTHINGS
ENO     ESTUFF
ENOU    ETHINGS
ENOUG   FNOUGH
ENOUGH  FSTUFF

Black koans:
COUNTEREXAMPLE <-- to rule guess AKHTBN iff it starts with A-M
ONOUGH
OTHERSTUFF
OTHERTHINGS
STUFF
THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:02:43 PM
Rule guess attempt: Koan has buddha nature iff its first letter is in A-M.
Counterexample: COUNTEREXAMPLE starts with something in A-M, but is black. Added to previous koan listing.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:05:33 PM
C
COUNTER
DATA
F
G
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:07:58 PM
White koans:
C        ENOUGHSTUFF
COUNTER  ENOUGHTHINGS
E        ESTUFF
EN       ETHINGS
ENO      F
ENOU     FNOUGH
ENOUG    FSTUFF
ENOUGH   G

Black koans:
COUNTEREXAMPLE
DATA
ONOUGH
OTHERSTUFF
OTHERTHINGS
STUFF
THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:09:44 PM
EXAMPLE
STUFFEXAMPLE
FNOUGHEXAMPLE
EXAMPLEEXAMPLE
EXAM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:13:31 PM
C        ENOUGHSTUFF
COUNTER  ENOUGHTHINGS
E        ESTUFF
EN       ETHINGS
ENO      F
ENOU     FNOUGH
ENOUG    FSTUFF
ENOUGH   G

Black koans:
COUNTEREXAMPLE  ONOUGH
DATA            OTHERSTUFF
EXAM            OTHERTHINGS
EXAMPLE         STUFF
EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  STUFFEXAMPLE
FNOUGHEXAMPLE   THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:16:36 PM
EXAMPLECOUNTER
OTHER
EX
EXA
COUNTERENOUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:18:43 PM
White koans:
C              ENOUGHSTUFF
COUNTER        ENOUGHTHINGS
COUNTERENOUGH  ESTUFF
E              ETHINGS
EN             EX
ENO            F
ENOU           FNOUGH
ENOUG          FSTUFF
ENOUGH         G

Black koans:
COUNTEREXAMPLE  ONOUGH
DATA            OTHER
EXA             OTHERSTUFF
EXAM            OTHERTHINGS
EXAMPLE         STUFF
EXAMPLECOUNTER  STUFFEXAMPLE
EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  THINGS
FNOUGHEXAMPLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:22:20 PM
EXO
ENA
XA
D
DA
DAT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
White koans:
C              ENOUGHSTUFF
COUNTER        ENOUGHTHINGS
COUNTERENOUGH  ESTUFF
D              ETHINGS
E              EX
EN             EXO
ENO            F
ENOU           FNOUGH
ENOUG          FSTUFF
ENOUGH         G

Black koans:
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLEEXAMPLE
DA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE
DAT             ONOUGH
DATA            OTHER
ENA             OTHERSTUFF
EXA             OTHERTHINGS
EXAM            STUFF
EXAMPLE         STUFFEXAMPLE
EXAMPLECOUNTER  THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:26:19 PM
A
O
COUNTERA
ENOUGHA
EXOUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:28:38 PM
White koans:
A              ENOU          EXO
C              ENOUG         EXOUGH
COUNTER        ENOUGH        F
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGHSTUFF   FNOUGH
D              ENOUGHTHINGS  FSTUFF
E              ESTUFF        G
EN             ETHINGS       O
ENO            EX

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAMPLECOUNTER
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLEEXAMPLE
DA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE
DAT             ONOUGH
DATA            OTHER
ENA             OTHERSTUFF
ENOUGHA         OTHERTHINGS
EXA             STUFF
EXAM            STUFFEXAMPLE
EXAMPLE         THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:37:45 PM
H
HH
EA
EO
HGUONE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:39:03 PM
White koans:
A              ENOUG         EXOUGH
C              ENOUGH        F
COUNTER        ENOUGHSTUFF   FNOUGH
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGHTHINGS  FSTUFF
D              EO            G
E              ESTUFF        H
EN             ETHINGS       HH
ENO            EX            O
ENOU           EXO

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXA             OTHER
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAM            OTHERSTUFF
DA              EXAMPLE         OTHERTHINGS
DAT             EXAMPLECOUNTER  STUFF
DATA            EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  STUFFEXAMPLE
EA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE   THINGS
ENA             HGUONE
ENOUGHA         ONOUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 06:41:54 PM
HE
HNOUGH
JJ
DD
EXOM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 06:45:53 PM
White koans:
A              ENOUG         EXOUGH
C              ENOUGH        F
COUNTER        ENOUGHSTUFF   FNOUGH
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGHTHINGS  FSTUFF
D              EO            G
DD             ESTUFF        H
E              ETHINGS       HH
EN             EX            JJ
ENO            EXO           O
ENOU           EXOM

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXA             HNOUGH
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAM            ONOUGH
DA              EXAMPLE         OTHER
DAT             EXAMPLECOUNTER  OTHERSTUFF
DATA            EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  OTHERTHINGS
EA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE   STUFF
ENA             HE              STUFFEXAMPLE
ENOUGHA         HGUONE          THINGS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 07:16:31 PM
S
T
AX
AXE
ENEUGH
ONEUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 07:19:23 PM
White koans:
A              EN            ESTUFF   G
AX             ENEUGH        ETHINGS  H
AXE            ENO           EX       HH
C              ENOU          EXO      JJ
COUNTER        ENOUG         EXOM     O
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGH        EXOUGH   S
D              ENOUGHSTUFF   F        T
DD             ENOUGHTHINGS  FNOUGH
E              EO            FSTUFF

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAM            ONOUGH
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLE         OTHER
DA              EXAMPLECOUNTER  OTHERSTUFF
DAT             EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  OTHERTHINGS
DATA            FNOUGHEXAMPLE   STUFF
EA              HE              STUFFEXAMPLE
ENA             HGUONE          THINGS
ENOUGHA         HNOUGH
EXA             ONEUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 07:22:30 PM
AN
ANE
ANA
AXA
OX
OXE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 07:23:48 PM
White koans:
A              D            ENOUGHTHINGS  FSTUFF
AN             DD           EO            G
ANA            E            ESTUFF        H
ANE            EN           ETHINGS       HH
AX             ENEUGH       EX            JJ
AXA            ENO          EXO           O
AXE            ENOU         EXOM          OX
C              ENOUG        EXOUGH        S
COUNTER        ENOUGH       F             T
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGHSTUFF  FNOUGH

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAM            ONOUGH
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLE         OTHER
DA              EXAMPLECOUNTER  OTHERSTUFF
DAT             EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  OTHERTHINGS
DATA            FNOUGHEXAMPLE   OXE
EA              HE              STUFF
ENA             HGUONE          STUFFEXAMPLE
ENOUGHA         HNOUGH          THINGS
EXA             ONEUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2015, 07:29:08 PM
ONE
OXA
OXE
OXO
OXOM
OXOUGH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2015, 07:34:34 PM
White koans:
A              D            ENOUGHTHINGS  FSTUFF
AN             DD           EO            G
ANA            E            ESTUFF        H
ANE            EN           ETHINGS       HH
AX             ENEUGH       EX            JJ
AXA            ENO          EXO           O
AXE            ENOU         EXOM          OX
C              ENOUG        EXOUGH        OXO
COUNTER        ENOUGH       F             S
COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUGHSTUFF  FNOUGH        T

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXA             HNOUGH       OXE
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAM            ONE          OXE
DA              EXAMPLE         ONEUGH       OXOM
DAT             EXAMPLECOUNTER  ONOUGH       OXOUGH
DATA            EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  OTHER        STUFF
EA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE   OTHERSTUFF   STUFFEXAMPLE
ENA             HE              OTHERTHINGS  THINGS
ENOUGHA         HGUONE          OXA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 14, 2015, 02:44:41 AM
CC
EE
FF
GG
CCC
EEE
FFF
GGG
CEFG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 08:47:27 AM
White koans:
A    CEFG           ENO           EXO     GGG
AN   COUNTER        ENOU          EXOM    H
ANA  COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUG         EXOUGH  HH
ANE  D              ENOUGH        F       JJ
AX   DD             ENOUGHSTUFF   FF      O
AXA  E              ENOUGHTHINGS  FFF     OX
AXE  EE             EO            FNOUGH  OXO
C    EEE            ESTUFF        FSTUFF  S
CC   EN             ETHINGS       G       T
CCC  ENEUGH         EX            GG

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXA             HNOUGH       OXE
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAM            ONE          OXE
DA              EXAMPLE         ONEUGH       OXOM
DAT             EXAMPLECOUNTER  ONOUGH       OXOUGH
DATA            EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  OTHER        STUFF
EA              FNOUGHEXAMPLE   OTHERSTUFF   STUFFEXAMPLE
ENA             HE              OTHERTHINGS  THINGS
ENOUGHA         HGUONE          OXA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2015, 04:47:43 PM
AXA being white is very inconvenient to my latest ideas :(

HA
HENOUGH
TH
TS
ST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 07:50:46 PM
Checked the entire table, and everything is marked correctly. :lix-evil:

White koans:
A    CEFG           ENO           EXO     GGG
AN   COUNTER        ENOU          EXOM    H
ANA  COUNTERENOUGH  ENOUG         EXOUGH  HH
ANE  D              ENOUGH        F       JJ
AX   DD             ENOUGHSTUFF   FF      O
AXA  E              ENOUGHTHINGS  FFF     OX
AXE  EE             EO            FNOUGH  OXO
C    EEE            ESTUFF        FSTUFF  S
CC   EN             ETHINGS       G       ST
CCC  ENEUGH         EX            GG      T

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAM            HNOUGH       OXE
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLE         ONE          OXOM
DA              EXAMPLECOUNTER  ONEUGH       OXOUGH
DAT             EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  ONOUGH       STUFF
DATA            FNOUGHEXAMPLE   OTHER        STUFFEXAMPLE
EA              HA              OTHERSTUFF   TH
ENA             HE              OTHERTHINGS  THINGS
ENOUGHA         HENOUGH         OXA          TS
EXA             HGUONE          OXE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2015, 08:00:23 PM
STU
STUF
STUV
CDEFG
CEGG
EGG
HEN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 08:04:14 PM
White koans:
A    CDEFG          EGG           ESTUFF   FSTUFF  S
AN   CEFG           EN            ETHINGS  G       ST
ANA  CEGG           ENEUGH        EX       GG      STU
ANE  COUNTER        ENO           EXO      GGG     STUV
AX   COUNTERENOUGH  ENOU          EXOM     H       T
AXA  D              ENOUG         EXOUGH   HH
AXE  DD             ENOUGH        F        JJ
C    E              ENOUGHSTUFF   FF       O
CC   EE             ENOUGHTHINGS  FFF      OX
CCC  EEE            EO            FNOUGH   OXO

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAMPLE         ONE          OXOUGH
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLECOUNTER  ONEUGH       STUF
DA              EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  ONOUGH       STUFF
DAT             FNOUGHEXAMPLE   OTHER        STUFFEXAMPLE
DATA            HA              OTHERSTUFF   TH
EA              HE              OTHERTHINGS  THINGS
ENA             HEN             OXA          TS
ENOUGHA         HENOUGH         OXE
EXA             HGUONE          OXE
EXAM            HNOUGH          OXOM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2015, 08:43:37 PM
HI
HIJ
HIJK
FE
EXE
ON
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 08:46:10 PM
White koans:
A    CDEFG          EGG           ESTUFF   FNOUGH  JJ
AN   CEFG           EN            ETHINGS  FSTUFF  O
ANA  CEGG           ENEUGH        EX       G       OX
ANE  COUNTER        ENO           EXE      GG      OXO
AX   COUNTERENOUGH  ENOU          EXO      GGG     S
AXA  D              ENOUG         EXOM     H       ST
AXE  DD             ENOUGH        EXOUGH   HH      STU
C    E              ENOUGHSTUFF   F        HI      STUV
CC   EE             ENOUGHTHINGS  FF       HIJ     T
CCC  EEE            EO            FFF      HIJK

Black koans:
COUNTERA        EXAMPLE         HNOUGH       OXE
COUNTEREXAMPLE  EXAMPLECOUNTER  ON           OXOM
DA              EXAMPLEEXAMPLE  ONE          OXOUGH
DAT             FE              ONEUGH       STUF
DATA            FNOUGHEXAMPLE   ONOUGH       STUFF
EA              HA              OTHER        STUFFEXAMPLE
ENA             HE              OTHERSTUFF   TH
ENOUGHA         HEN             OTHERTHINGS  THINGS
EXA             HENOUGH         OXA          TS
EXAM            HGUONE          OXE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2015, 08:49:03 PM
Guess: A koan has the buddha nature if no contained letter is alphabetically earlier than its first letter.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 08:52:09 PM
You are enlightened!

auto buddha = (string koan) => koan.all!(c => c >= koan[0]);

And welcome to hosting the next round.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2015, 11:43:00 PM
Awesome. And if I've counted correctly, this is the 22nd round! :thumbsup:

GABRIEL has the Buddha-nature.
CHARLES does not have the Buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2015, 11:54:01 PM
CHAR
GAB
CABREL
ABEGILR
ACEHLRS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 12:07:02 AM
White:
ABEGILR
ACEHLRS
CABREL
GAB
GABRIEL

Black:
CHAR
CHARLES
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 15, 2015, 12:48:50 AM
CHA
CH
C
CA
ACHRLES
ACEHRLS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 12:53:08 AM
White:
ABEGILR
ACEHLRS
ACEHRLS
CABREL
CH
CHA
GAB
GABRIEL

Black:
ACHRLES
C
CA
CHAR
CHARLES
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 01:31:11 AM
At Simon's suggestion, I compiled a list of all the rules that have been used in the game so far :)

All rules take the form: "A koan has the Buddha-nature if and if only..."

For rules that refer to vowels/consonants, it is noted whether Y counts as a vowel for this particular rule (although in three cases, the round ended without resolving this ambiguity!)

1. (Simon): its letters are not all different
2 (Insane Steve): at least half its letters are vowels (Y is consonant)
3 (geoo): all letters have either mirror or rotational symmetry
4 (ccexplore): it contains an odd number of consonants (Y not tested)
5 (möbius): exactly half its letters are vowels (Y not tested)
6 (Minim): each consonant occurs at most once (Y not tested)
7 (Simon): its first letter is alphabetically earlier than all its other letters
8 (Proxima): its length is greater than or equal to alphabetic position of its first letter
9 (ccexplore): it contains at least one letter from "AKHTBN" and letters from that string occur only in that order
10 (Clam): it contains two letters that are consecutive in the alphabet
11 (Nepster): exactly half its letters are from the first half of the alphabet
12 (Proxima): its first and last letters are the same or their alphabetic positions differ by a multiple of 4
13 (Ramon): it contains the letter whose alphabetic position equals its length
14 (Nepster): when arranged alphabetically, its last letter is a vowel (Y is consonant)
15 (Minim): the sum of alphabetic positions of its letters is prime
16 (Proxima): its length is square or triangular, but not both
17 (Clam): its third letter is the same as its third letter when arranged alphabetically
18 (namida): it has at least three letters, and at least half its letters have (alphabetic position - 1) a multiple of the length, with the first letter counting twice if it is a multiple
19 (Proxima): for each n, the nth vowel either does not appear or appears n times (Y is vowel)
20 (namida): every pair of adjacent letters are either the same or from opposite halves of the alphabet
21 (Proxima): it contains an odd number of letters with exactly one vertical line segment
22 (Simon): its first letter is the same as or alphabetically earlier than all its other letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 15, 2015, 01:43:17 AM
<SimonN> oh my, I hosted only 3 rounds, and used the same rule for 2 of them
<Proxima> :D
<SimonN> and the other round was the very first round with the easiest rule imaginable

ACE
ACH
XAXXIEX
XXAXXEX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 01:45:13 AM
White:
ABEGILR
ACE
ACEHLRS
ACEHRLS
ACH
CABREL
CH
CHA
GAB
GABRIEL
XAXXIEX

Black:
ACHRLES
C
CA
CHAR
CHARLES
XXAXXEX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 15, 2015, 01:50:51 AM
A
XA
XXA
XXXA
E
XE
XXE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 01:53:19 AM
White:
ABEGILR
ACE
ACEHLRS
ACEHRLS
ACH
CABREL
CH
CHA
GAB
GABRIEL
XAXXIEX
XXA
XXE
XXXA
XXXE

Black:
A
ACHRLES
C
CA
CHAR
CHARLES
E
XA
XE
XXAXXEX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 15, 2015, 01:58:18 AM
OMU
UTO
RR
HC
UOIEA
AC
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 02:02:35 AM
White Koans
ABEGILR    CABREL     HC         XAXXIEX   
ACE        CH         OMU        XXA       
ACEHLRS    CHA        RR         XXE       
ACEHRLS    GAB        UOIEA      XXXA       
ACH        GABRIEL    UTO        XXXE       

Black Koans
A          CA         E          XXAXXEX   
ACHRLES    CHAR       XA         AC         
C          CHARLES    XE                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 15, 2015, 02:38:04 AM
RLIGEBA
SRLHECA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 03:27:24 AM
^ both white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Clam on December 15, 2015, 05:41:29 AM
G
H
R
S
GG
HH
RR
SS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 03:32:21 PM
White Koans
ABEGILR    CHA        RLIGEBA    XXE       
ACE        GAB        RR         XXXA       
ACEHLRS    GABRIEL    SRLHECA    XXXE       
ACEHRLS    GG         UOIEA      SS         
ACH        HC         UTO                   
CABREL     HH         XAXXIEX               
CH         OMU        XXA                   

Black Koans
A          CA         G          XA         
AC         CHAR       H          XE         
ACHRLES    CHARLES    R          XXAXXEX   
C          E          S                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 15, 2015, 05:06:07 PM
I
O
U
Y
KING
QUEEN
JACK
JOKER
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 05:35:39 PM
White Koans
ABEGILR    CHA        OMU        UTO       
ACE        GAB        QUEEN      XAXXIEX   
ACEHLRS    GABRIEL    RLIGEBA    XXA       
ACEHRLS    GG         RR         XXE       
ACH        HC         SRLHECA    XXXA       
CABREL     HH         SS         XXXE       
CH         JOKER      UOIEA                 

Black Koans
A          CHARLES    KING       XE         
AC         E          O          XXAXXEX   
ACHRLES    G          R          Y         
C          H          S                     
CA         I          U                     
CHAR       JACK       XA                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 15, 2015, 06:16:33 PM
AZ
AY
BZ
BY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 06:19:29 PM
White Koans
ABEGILR    CH         OMU        XAXXIEX   
ACE        CHA        QUEEN      XXA       
ACEHLRS    GAB        RLIGEBA    XXE       
ACEHRLS    GABRIEL    RR         XXXA       
ACH        GG         SRLHECA    XXXE       
BY         HC         SS                   
BZ         HH         UOIEA                 
CABREL     JOKER      UTO                   

Black Koans
A          CA         I          U         
AC         CHAR       JACK       XA         
ACHRLES    CHARLES    KING       XE         
AY         E          O          XXAXXEX   
AZ         G          R          Y         
C          H          S                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Clam on December 15, 2015, 06:37:24 PM
AAA
BBB
YYY
ZZZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 06:41:43 PM
^ all white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Clam on December 15, 2015, 07:07:04 PM
HA
AR
HR
CHR
CAR
HAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2015, 07:09:39 PM
White Koans
AAA        CAR        HR         XAXXIEX   
ABEGILR    CH         JOKER      XXA       
ACE        CHA        OMU        XXE       
ACEHLRS    CHR        QUEEN      XXXA       
ACEHRLS    GAB        RLIGEBA    XXXE       
ACH        GABRIEL    RR         YYY       
BBB        GG         SRLHECA    ZZZ       
BY         HAR        SS                   
BZ         HC         UOIEA                 
CABREL     HH         UTO                   

Black Koans
A          CA         I          XA         
AC         CHAR       JACK       XE         
ACHRLES    CHARLES    KING       XXAXXEX   
AR         E          O          Y         
AY         G          R                     
AZ         H          S                     
C          HA         U                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 16, 2015, 01:06:45 AM
ABRIELG
BRIELGA
RIELGAB
IELGABR
ELGABRI
LGABRIE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 01:09:34 AM
White Koans
AAA        CABREL     HH         UTO       
ABEGILR    CAR        HR         XAXXIEX   
ABRIELG    CH         JOKER      XXA       
ACE        CHA        OMU        XXE       
ACEHLRS    CHR        QUEEN      XXXA       
ACEHRLS    ELGABRI    RIELGAB    XXXE       
ACH        GAB        RLIGEBA    YYY       
BBB        GABRIEL    RR         ZZZ       
BRIELGA    GG         SRLHECA               
BY         HAR        SS                   
BZ         HC         UOIEA                 

Black Koans
A          CA         I          S         
AC         CHAR       IELGABR    U         
ACHRLES    CHARLES    JACK       XA         
AR         E          KING       XE         
AY         G          LGABRIE    XXAXXEX   
AZ         H          O          Y         
C          HA         R                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on December 16, 2015, 11:31:03 AM
ABCD
ABDC
EBCD
EBDC
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 04:33:30 PM
^ all white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2015, 08:26:23 PM
FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT
CHARMANDER
CHARMELEONGO
CHARIZARD
CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE

HOLIDAYFORCLAM
LOTSOFINFORMATION
SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 09:25:17 PM
White Koans
AAA                    CABREL                 HAR                    SRLHECA               
ABCD                   CAR                    HC                     SS                     
ABDC                   CH                     HH                     UOIEA                 
ABEGILR                CHA                    HOLIDAYFORCLAM         UTO                   
ABRIELG                CHARIZARD              HR                     XAXXIEX               
ACE                    CHARMELEONGO           JOKER                  XXA                   
ACEHLRS                CHR                    LOTSOFINFORMATION      XXE                   
ACEHRLS                EBCD                   OMU                    XXXA                   
ACH                    EBDC                   QUEEN                  XXXE                   
BBB                    ELGABRI                RIELGAB                YYY                   
BRIELGA                GAB                    RLIGEBA                ZZZ                   
BY                     GABRIEL                RR                                           
BZ                     GG                     SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ                              

Black Koans
A                      CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE    HA                     S                     
AC                     CHAR                   I                      U                     
ACHRLES                CHARLES                IELGABR                XA                     
AR                     CHARMANDER             JACK                   XE                     
AY                     E                      KING                   XXAXXEX               
AZ                     FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT      LGABRIE                Y                     
C                      G                      O                                             
CA                     H                      R                                             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2015, 09:32:30 PM
Bug report for namida's koan tool:
There is untrimmed whitespace at end of line, before linebreak. This allows the browser to wrap in the middle of the extra whitespace, because it becomes nonbreaking spaces. Looks like empty line inserted after each meaningful row.
Expected: Trimmed lines, without spaces that don't help to align anything.

(also, y u no break at 80 chars? Wrapping at 80 happens to fit my custom CSS, but there is no compelling reason for wrapping at 80 other than habitual wrapping of everything before 80, the width of a console.)

CHARMELEON
CHARMYLEONGO
CHARMELETTTT
CHARRRRTRUCK

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 09:36:00 PM
White Koans
AAA                    CAR                    GG                     SRLHECA               
ABCD                   CH                     HAR                    SS                     
ABDC                   CHA                    HC                     UOIEA                 
ABEGILR                CHARIZARD              HH                     UTO                   
ABRIELG                CHARMELEONGO           HOLIDAYFORCLAM         XAXXIEX               
ACE                    CHARMELETTTT           HR                     XXA                   
ACEHLRS                CHARMYLEONGO           JOKER                  XXE                   
ACEHRLS                CHARRRRTRUCK           LOTSOFINFORMATION      XXXA                   
ACH                    CHR                    OMU                    XXXE                   
BBB                    EBCD                   QUEEN                  YYY                   
BRIELGA                EBDC                   RIELGAB                ZZZ                   
BY                     ELGABRI                RLIGEBA                                       
BZ                     GAB                    RR                                           
CABREL                 GABRIEL                SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ                             

Black Koans
A                      CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE    H                      R                     
AC                     CHAR                   HA                     S                     
ACHRLES                CHARLES                I                      U                     
AR                     CHARMANDER             IELGABR                XA                     
AY                     CHARMELEON             JACK                   XE                     
AZ                     E                      KING                   XXAXXEX               
C                      FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT      LGABRIE                Y                     
CA                     G                      O                                             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2015, 09:41:41 PM
FIGHTPPKKMMNFFGHT
FIGHTPPKKMMN
FIGHTPPKK
FIGHTPP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 09:54:50 PM
Including some guesses from chat:

White Koans
AAA                    CAR                    GABRIEL                SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ       
ABCD                   CH                     GG                     SRLHECA               
ABDC                   CHA                    HAR                    SS                     
ABEGILR                CHARIZARD              HC                     UOIEA                 
ABRIELG                CHARMELEONGO           HH                     UTO                   
ACE                    CHARMELETTTT           HOLIDAYFORCLAM         XAXXIEX               
ACEHLRS                CHARMYLEONGO           HR                     XXA                   
ACEHRLS                CHARRRRTRUCK           JOKER                  XXE                   
ACH                    CHARRRRTRVCK           LOTSOFINFORMATION      XXXA                   
BBB                    CHR                    OMU                    XXXE                   
BRIELGA                EBCD                   QUEEN                  YYY                   
BY                     EBDC                   RIELGAB                ZZZ                   
BZ                     ELGABRI                RLIGEBA                                       
CABREL                 GAB                    RR                                           

Black Koans
A                      CHAR                   FIGHTPPKKMMNFFGHT      LGABRIE               
AC                     CHARLES                FIGHTPPKKMMNN          O                     
ACHRLES                CHARMANDER             G                      R                     
AR                     CHARMELEON             H                      S                     
AY                     E                      HA                     U                     
AZ                     FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT      I                      XA                     
C                      FIGHTPP                IELGABR                XE                     
CA                     FIGHTPPKK              JACK                   XXAXXEX               
CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE    FIGHTPPKKMMN           KING                   Y                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2015, 10:01:02 PM
ZARDICHAR
FIGHTPPKK
FIGHTPPOK
FIGHTPOKE

Slimmer listing of existing koans that breaks properly at 80 chars >_>

White koans:
AAA      BBB        CHARMELEONGO  GAB             LOTSOFINFORMATION  UOIEA
ABCD     BRIELGA    CHARMELETTTT  GABRIEL         OMU                UTO
ABDC     BY         CHARMYLEONGO  GG              QUEEN              XAXXIEX
ABEGILR  BZ         CHARRRRTRUCK  HAR             RIELGAB            XXA
ABRIELG  CABREL     CHARRRRTRVCK  HC              RLIGEBA            XXE
ACE      CAR        CHR           HH              RR                 XXXA
ACEHLRS  CH         EBCD          HOLIDAYFORCLAM  SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ   XXXE
ACEHRLS  CHA        EBDC          HR              SRLHECA            YYY
ACH      CHARIZARD  ELGABRI       JOKER           SS                 ZZZ

Black koans:
A                    CHAR               FIGHTPPKKMMNFFGHT  LGABRIE
AC                   CHARLES            FIGHTPPKKMMNN      O
ACHRLES              CHARMANDER         G                  R
AR                   CHARMELEON         H                  S
AY                   E                  HA                 U
AZ                   FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT  I                  XA
C                    FIGHTPP            IELGABR            XE
CA                   FIGHTPPKK          JACK               XXAXXEX
CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE  FIGHTPPKKMMN       KING               Y
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: mobius on December 16, 2015, 10:26:28 PM
AA
ABAB
CDCD
ABA
ABBA
AAAA
ABCDEFA
ZYXWZ
ZYXW
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 16, 2015, 10:48:06 PM
White Koans
AA                     BY                     ELGABRI                RR
AAA                    BZ                     FIGHTPPOK              SLEEPZZZZZZZZZZZ
AAAA                   CABREL                 GAB                    SRLHECA
ABA                    CAR                    GABRIEL                SS
ABBA                   CDCD                   GG                     UOIEA
ABCD                   CH                     HAR                    UTO
ABCDEFA                CHA                    HC                     XAXXIEX
ABDC                   CHARIZARD              HH                     XXA
ABEGILR                CHARMELEONGO           HOLIDAYFORCLAM         XXE
ABRIELG                CHARMELETTTT           HR                     XXXA
ACE                    CHARMYLEONGO           JOKER                  XXXE
ACEHLRS                CHARRRRTRUCK           LOTSOFINFORMATION      YYY
ACEHRLS                CHARRRRTRVCK           OMU                    ZARDICHAR
ACH                    CHR                    QUEEN                  ZYXW
BBB                    EBCD                   RIELGAB                ZYXWZ
BRIELGA                EBDC                   RLIGEBA                ZZZ

Black Koans
A                      CHAR                   FIGHTPPKKMMNFFGHT      O
ABAB                   CHARLES                FIGHTPPKKMMNN          R
AC                     CHARMANDER             G                      S
ACHRLES                CHARMELEON             H                      U
AR                     E                      HA                     XA
AY                     FIGHTPOKE              I                      XE
AZ                     FIGHTPOKEMONFIGHT      IELGABR                XXAXXEX
C                      FIGHTPP                JACK                   Y
CA                     FIGHTPPKK              KING
CANTLEARNAFIFTHMOVE    FIGHTPPKKMMN           LGABRIE

Edited by Simon to remove extraneous whitespace at end of line :>
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on April 16, 2016, 09:11:44 PM
AAXXAXX
XAAAA
AXXXX
AAAXXX
AAAAXXXX

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on April 16, 2016, 09:15:46 PM
White:
AXXXX
XAAAA

Black:
AAAAXXXX
AAAXXX
AAXXAXX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on April 16, 2016, 10:05:45 PM
Simon guessed the rule in chat, which was: The second letter and second-last letter must be both vowels or both consonants (so all 1-letter koans are black by default). Y counts as a consonant for this rule.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 16, 2016, 02:34:09 AM
Since it's almost been a month without anyone starting a new round, I hope there will be no objections if I do so.

White: EDITOR
Black: DOSBOX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 16, 2016, 09:24:10 AM
FREAK
FISH
FILE
TEAM
BANANA
AGE
AGES
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 16, 2016, 09:24:36 AM
EDIT
EDITER
RIOT
RIOTED
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Gronkling on May 16, 2016, 10:14:25 AM
QATAR
POSBOP
POSBXP
PXSBOP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 16, 2016, 08:29:56 PM
White:
QATAR
EDIT
EDITER
FILE
BANANA
AGE
AGES

Black:
POSBOP
POSBXP
PXSBOP
RIOT
RIOTED
FREAK
FISH
TEAM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 16, 2016, 10:07:08 PM
GATE
MAGE
MATE
PASBAP
BONONO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 16, 2016, 11:04:08 PM
I'd like to guess the rule:

A koan is white if the letters alternate between consonants and vowels.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 16, 2016, 11:25:55 PM
That sounds like a very good guess Namida. :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 17, 2016, 02:19:37 AM
Quote from: namida on May 16, 2016, 11:04:08 PM
I'd like to guess the rule:

A koan is white if the letters alternate between consonants and vowels.

Yep, you got it!  Figured it'd be best to go with something simple for my first time coming up with a rule.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 17, 2016, 03:18:25 AM
Alright... new round, then.

White: BANANA
Black: APPLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 17, 2016, 04:54:03 PM
BAN
BANDANA
BANANANANA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 12:20:57 AM
White Koans
BANANA        BANANANANA                               

Black Koans
APPLE         BAN           BANDANA                    
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 12:45:20 AM
From IRC:

Quote<Proxima> is the rule "a koan has the buddha nature if it has an even number of letters"

This is not the rule.

Counterexamples added:

White Koans
BANANA        BANANANANA    PIRATES                    

Black Koans
APPLE         BAN           BANDANA       DRUG         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 18, 2016, 12:47:45 AM
BANANAS
PIRATE
RAT
RATE
RATES
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 12:48:32 AM
White Koans
BANANA        BANANAS       PIRATES                     
BANANANANA    PIRATE        RATES                      

Black Koans
APPLE         BANDANA       RAT                        
BAN           DRUG          RATS                       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 18, 2016, 10:25:26 PM
Pineapple
Orange
Melon


Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Gronkling on May 18, 2016, 10:50:49 PM
XOXOXOXO
OXOXOXOX
XOXOXOX
OXOXOXO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 11:21:09 PM
White Koans
BANANA        MELON         PIRATES       XOXOXOXO     
BANANANANA    PINEAPPLE     RATES                       
BANANAS       PIRATE        XOXOXOX                    

Black Koans
APPLE         DRUG          ORANGE                     
BAN           OXOXOXO       RAT                         
BANDANA       OXOXOXOX      RATS                       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 18, 2016, 11:23:22 PM
BANANAB
NANANAN
NANANA
ANANAN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 11:32:02 PM
White Koans
BANANA        MELON         PIRATE        XOXOXOXO     
BANANAB       NANANA        PIRATES                     
BANANANANA    NANANAN       RATES                       
BANANAS       PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX                     

Black Koans
ANANAN        BANDANA       OXOXOXO       RATS         
APPLE         DRUG          OXOXOXOX                   
BAN           ORANGE        RAT                         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 18, 2016, 11:56:11 PM
From IRC, an incorrect guess:

Quote<Proxima> rule guess: a koan is white if there are at least 4 letters, and the 4th is a vowel

White Koans
BANANA        EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANANAB       MELON         PIRATE        XOXOXOXO     
BANANANANA    NANANA        PIRATES                     
BANANAS       NANANAN       RATES                       

Black Koans
ANANAN        BANDANA       OXOXOXO       RATS         
APPLE         DRUG          OXOXOXOX      STEAM         
BAN           ORANGE        RAT                         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 22, 2016, 12:55:48 PM
DANANA
BANA
BA
BAR
BARS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 22, 2016, 12:59:37 PM
White Koans
BANA          BANANAS       NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANA        DANANA        NANANAN       RATES         
BANANAB       EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRATE        XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
ANANAN        BANDANA       ORANGE        RATS         
APPLE         BAR           OXOXOXO       STEAM         
BA            BARS          OXOXOXOX                   
BAN           DRUG          RAT                         

Maybe it's time for a hint...
Spoiler
It is impossible to make a black koan by adding extra letters to the end of a white koan.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 02:50:28 PM
CAKE
FISH
CAT
BIRD
DOG
MOUSE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 03:43:56 PM
White Koans
BANA          CAKE          NANANAN       XOXOXOX       
BANANA        DANANA        PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     
BANANAB       EARS          PIRATE                     
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRATES                     
BANANAS       NANANA        RATES                       

Black Koans
ANANAN        BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BARS          FISH          RAT           
BA            BIRD          MOUSE         RATS         
BAN           CAT           ORANGE        STEAM         
BANDANA       DOG           OXOXOXO                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 05:47:52 PM
PI
PIN
PINE
ORAN
OPERA
CAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 05:55:56 PM
White Koans
BANA          CAKE          NANANAN       RATES         
BANANA        DANANA        PINE          XOXOXOX       
BANANAB       EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRATE                     
BANANAS       NANANA        PIRATES                     

Black Koans
ANANAN        BARS          FISH          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BIRD          MOUSE         PI           
BA            CAR           OPERA         PIN           
BAN           CAT           ORAN          RAT           
BANDANA       DOG           ORANGE        RATS         
BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXO       STEAM         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 06:17:28 PM
BANB
BANN
BANO
CAK
EAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 06:19:43 PM
White Koans
BANA          BANO          MELON         PIRATE       
BANANA        CAKE          NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANAB       DANANA        NANANAN       RATES         
BANANANANA    EAR           PINE          XOXOXOX       
BANANAS       EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
ANANAN        BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BARS          FISH          PI           
BA            BIRD          MOUSE         PIN           
BAN           CAK           OPERA         RAT           
BANB          CAR           ORAN          RATS         
BANDANA       CAT           ORANGE        STEAM         
BANN          DOG           OXOXOXO                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 06:22:11 PM
I'm doing a bit of a "thinking post" here, and am putting down my thought process since there's a chance, albeit small, that my random thoughts might help someone figure it out.

Based on the hint,
Spoiler
It is impossible to make a black koan by adding extra letters to the end of a white koan.
I've made an abridged white koan list.
Because of this hint, knowing, for instance, that PINE is white means that PINEAPPLE gives no extra information, so my abridged list includes PINE but excludes PINEAPPLE.

I do not guarantee I didn't accidentally miss one.
Spoiler
BANA
BAND
CAKE
EARS
MELON
NANANA
PINE
PIRATE
RATES
The bolded koans will become black if their last letter is removed.


Also based on the hint, I can conclude that the following koans are black (this is probably not helpful information):
Spoiler
A
B
C
D
F
M
O
P
R
S
because, if any of them were white, any koan starting with them would have to also be white. Generalizing this list,
Spoiler
the first letter of any black koan is itself a black koan

Me rephrasing the hint in my own words in the hopes that it might help me think:
Spoiler
A white koan cannot under any circumstances become black by adding more letters, but a black koan can become white by adding letters.

Based on my abridged koan list, I will try to determine what the shortest form of each white koan is.

EA
MELO
MEL
ME
NANAN
NANA
NAN
NA
PIRAT
PIRA
PIR
RATE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 06:26:00 PM
White Koans
BANA          EA            NANANAN       RATE         
BANANA        EARS          PINE          RATES         
BANANAB       MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     
BANANAS       NANA          PIRAT                      
CAKE          NANAN         PIRATE                     
DANANA        NANANA        PIRATES                     

Black Koans
ANANAN        CAR           NA            PIN           
APPLE         CAT           NAN           PIR           
BA            DOG           OPERA         RAT           
BAN           DRUG          ORAN          RATS         
BANDANA       FISH          ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           ME            OXOXOXO                     
BARS          MEL           OXOXOXOX                   
BIRD          MOUSE         PI                         



EDIT: I notice that this list was missing the koans from the previous post. Here's a complete list, though it doesn't have anything bolded.
I have also included those which Dullstar concluded (correctly) would be black.
Spoiler
White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANA        EA            NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANAN       RATE         
BANANANANA    EARS          PINE          RATES         
BANANAS       MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANO          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     
CAKE          NANA          PIRAT                       

Black Koans
A             BIRD          ME            P             
ANANAN        C             MEL           PI           
APPLE         CAK           MOUSE         PIN           
B             CAR           NA            PIR           
BA            CAT           NAN           R             
BAN           D             O             RAT           
BANB          DOG           OPERA         RATS         
BANDANA       DRUG          ORAN          S             
BANN          F             ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           FISH          OXOXOXO                     
BARS          M             OXOXOXOX                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
Updated abridged white koan listing:
BANA
BANO
CAKE
EA
MELO
NANA
PINE
PIRA
RATE
I don't believe any of those can be shrunk down any further without becoming black koans.
Well, maybe EA, but I'd be surprised.

---

LEMMINGS
TRAIN
RESTAURANT
FACADE
E
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 06:40:03 PM
White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANA          PIRAT         
BANANA        EA            NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANANANA    EARS          NANANAN       RATE         
BANANAS       FACADE        PINE          RATES         
BANO          MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
CAKE          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
A             C             ME            PI           
ANANAN        CAK           MEL           PIN           
APPLE         CAR           MOUSE         PIR           
B             CAT           NA            R             
BA            D             NAN           RAT           
BAN           DOG           O             RATS         
BANB          DRUG          OPERA         RESTAURANT   
BANDANA       E             ORAN          S             
BANN          F             ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           FISH          OXOXOXO       TRAIN         
BARS          LEMMINGS      OXOXOXOX                   
BIRD          M             P                           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 06:42:05 PM
My thoughts on the possible shape of the rule:
Spoiler
So far, it looks as if the rule depends only on vowels and consonants, i.e. there are no pairs with the same vowel-consonant structure and different Buddha-nature. This may be disproved by later additions. If it is correct, then all 1-letter koans are black.

The rule must be asymmetric as regards front and back of the koan, since adding to the end of white cannot produce black, but adding to the beginning of white can (example: XOXOXOX and OXOXOXOX).

The hint suggests the rule is positive, i.e. a koan is white if it includes some feature. If so, then this feature may manifest in a 2-letter koan (EA).

Vowels seem to be "preferred" -- EA is white, BANA is white but FISH black. This suggests something like "a koan is white if some substring starting from the front is at least half vowels", but this does not fit all examples so far (OXOXOXO is black).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 06:45:30 PM
QuoteIf it is correct, then all 1-letter koans are black.
They indeed are.

The rest is either thought process or an observation that can be deduced from the existing lists, so I won't say anything in regards to it. :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 06:51:15 PM
Some more guesses, then.

BAA
BB
BBB
BBA
ABA
ABBA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 06:54:53 PM
White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANA          PIRAT         
BANANA        EA            NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANANANA    EARS          NANANAN       RATE         
BANANAS       FACADE        PINE          RATES         
BANO          MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
CAKE          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
A             BARS          F             OXOXOXO       
ABA           BB            FISH          OXOXOXOX     
ABBA          BBA           LEMMINGS      P             
ANANAN        BBB           M             PI           
APPLE         BIRD          ME            PIN           
B             C             MEL           PIR           
BA            CAK           MOUSE         R             
BAA           CAR           NA            RAT           
BAN           CAT           NAN           RATS         
BANB          D             O             RESTAURANT   
BANDANA       DOG           OPERA         S             
BANN          DRUG          ORAN          STEAM         
BAR           E             ORANGE        TRAIN         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 06:56:46 PM
FACAD
FACA
FAC
FA

Something that I've noticed is that all of the shortest possible forms of white koans never have 2 consecutive consonants, but can have 2 consecutive vowels.  However, with the fact that adding to the end of a koan cannot make it black, it would seem there must be some way of determining the cutoff.  I'm not sure if I'm on to anything, or if my observation is a complete coincidence.  There are also black koans lack 2 consecutive consonants. (e.g. OPERA)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 23, 2016, 06:58:38 PM
Akhtbn iff one of these:
* it is exactly 2 letters long and they're both vowels,
* it is exactly 3 letters long and of form vovel-vovel-consonant,
* it is at least 4 letters long, begins with a consonant, and alternates between letters and consonants.

Blergh, PINEAPPLE is white, counterexample.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:00:31 PM
In case Simon's rule isn't correct, a correction to my abridged list and more koans:
BANA
BANO
CAKE
EA
FACADE
MELO
NANA
PINE
PIRA
RATE
XOXOXOX
(I accidentally left XOXOXOX off)

XOXOXO
XOXOX
XOXO
XOX
XO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:01:52 PM
White Koans
BANA          EAR           NANANA        RATES         
BANANA        EARS          NANANAN       XOXO         
BANANAB       FACA          PINE          XOXOX         
BANANANANA    FACAD         PINEAPPLE     XOXOXO       
BANANAS       FACADE        PIRA          XOXOXOX       
BANO          MELO          PIRAT         XOXOXOXO     
CAKE          MELON         PIRATE                     
DANANA        NANA          PIRATES                     
EA            NANAN         RATE                       

Black Koans
A             BB            FAC           OXOXOXOX     
ABA           BBA           FISH          P             
ABBA          BBB           LEMMINGS      PI           
ANANAN        BIRD          M             PIN           
APPLE         C             ME            PIR           
B             CAK           MEL           R             
BA            CAR           MOUSE         RAT           
BAA           CAT           NA            RATS         
BAN           D             NAN           RESTAURANT   
BANB          DOG           O             S             
BANDANA       DRUG          OPERA         STEAM         
BANN          E             ORAN          TRAIN         
BAR           F             ORANGE        XO           
BARS          FA            OXOXOXO       XOX           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:02:41 PM
Quote from: Simon on May 23, 2016, 06:58:38 PM
Akhtbn iff one of these:
* it is exactly 2 letters long and they're both vowels,
* it is exactly 3 letters long and of form vovel-vovel-consonant,
* it is at least 4 letters long, begins with a consonant, and alternates between letters and consonants.

Blergh, PINEAPPLE is white, counterexample.

-- Simon


I think, based on the hint that was given, that it would depend only on the first n letters, so I think you MIGHT be on to something if you change it along those lines.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 07:02:58 PM
If the vowel-consonant theory is correct (and subsequent additions to the list have not yet contradicted it), it follows that we have a complete knowledge of 1, 2 and 3-letter koans:

1-letter: All black
2-letter: VV white, others black
3-letter: VVV, VVC white, others black

However, for 4 letters and beyond, a koan can be white without having two consecutive vowels.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:06:51 PM
I wouldn't say we have complete knowledge of 2 letter koans since we only have one 2 letter white koan.  So might as well try to get more, right?
AA
AE
KA
KI
EE
II
OO
UU

If Proxima's theory for 2 letter koans is correct, I'd expect KI and KA to be black, all others white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:07:39 PM
White Koans
AA            EA            NANA          PIRATES       
AE            EAR           NANAN         RATE         
BANA          EARS          NANANA        RATES         
BANANA        EE            NANANAN       UU           
BANANAB       FACA          OO            XOXO         
BANANANANA    FACAD         PINE          XOXOX         
BANANAS       FACADE        PINEAPPLE     XOXOXO       
BANO          II            PIRA          XOXOXOX       
CAKE          MELO          PIRAT         XOXOXOXO     
DANANA        MELON         PIRATE                     

Black Koans
A             BBA           KA            P             
ABA           BBB           KI            PI           
ABBA          BIRD          LEMMINGS      PIN           
ANANAN        C             M             PIR           
APPLE         CAK           ME            R             
B             CAR           MEL           RAT           
BA            CAT           MOUSE         RATS         
BAA           D             NA            RESTAURANT   
BAN           DOG           NAN           S             
BANB          DRUG          O             STEAM         
BANDANA       E             OPERA         TRAIN         
BANN          F             ORAN          XO           
BAR           FA            ORANGE        XOX           
BARS          FAC           OXOXOXO                     
BB            FISH          OXOXOXOX                   
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
I'll just mention - although breaking it down by lengths is one way it could be handled, it is possible to explain the rule without any reference to the koan's length, and certianly without any "if the koan is this long, this rule applies; if it's this long, this other rule applies; etc". :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:10:57 PM
Testing 3 and 4 letters:

EAT
AAA
EEE
III
OOO
UUU
AEI
ICE
IEV
HARE
DARE
KATE

I think it will help, though, if we can at least consistently guess what will be white and what will be black.
Of my latest list, I'm expecting ICE to be black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:11:59 PM
White Koans
AA            EA            KATE          PIRATE       
AAA           EAR           MELO          PIRATES       
AE            EARS          MELON         RATE         
AEI           EAT           NANA          RATES         
BANA          EE            NANAN         UU           
BANANA        EEE           NANANA        UUU           
BANANAB       FACA          NANANAN       XOXO         
BANANANANA    FACAD         OO            XOXOX         
BANANAS       FACADE        OOO           XOXOXO       
BANO          HARE          PINE          XOXOXOX       
CAKE          IEV           PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     
DANANA        II            PIRA                       
DARE          III           PIRAT                       

Black Koans
A             BBA           ICE           OXOXOXOX     
ABA           BBB           KA            P             
ABBA          BIRD          KI            PI           
ANANAN        C             LEMMINGS      PIN           
APPLE         CAK           M             PIR           
B             CAR           ME            R             
BA            CAT           MEL           RAT           
BAA           D             MOUSE         RATS         
BAN           DOG           NA            RESTAURANT   
BANB          DRUG          NAN           S             
BANDANA       E             O             STEAM         
BANN          F             OPERA         TRAIN         
BAR           FA            ORAN          XO           
BARS          FAC           ORANGE        XOX           
BB            FISH          OXOXOXO                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 23, 2016, 07:15:06 PM
OOXX
OOXXX
OOXXXX
OOOX
OOOXX
OOOXXX

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 07:02:58 PM
If the vowel-consonant theory is correct (and subsequent additions to the list have not yet contradicted it), it follows that we have a complete knowledge of 1, 2 and 3-letter koans:

1-letter: All black
2-letter: VV white, others black
3-letter: VVV, VVC white, others black

However, for 4 letters and beyond, a koan can be white without having two consecutive vowels.

It seems that for 4 letters, CVCV consistently works, but VCVC does not.

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:16:13 PM
White Koans
AA            EAR           MELON         PINEAPPLE     
AAA           EARS          NANA          PIRA         
AE            EAT           NANAN         PIRAT         
AEI           EE            NANANA        PIRATE       
BANA          EEE           NANANAN       PIRATES       
BANANA        FACA          OO            RATE         
BANANAB       FACAD         OOO           RATES         
BANANANANA    FACADE        OOOX          UU           
BANANAS       HARE          OOOXX         UUU           
BANO          IEV           OOOXXX        XOXO         
CAKE          II            OOXX          XOXOX         
DANANA        III           OOXXX         XOXOXO       
DARE          KATE          OOXXXX        XOXOXOX       
EA            MELO          PINE          XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
A             BBA           ICE           OXOXOXOX     
ABA           BBB           KA            P             
ABBA          BIRD          KI            PI           
ANANAN        C             LEMMINGS      PIN           
APPLE         CAK           M             PIR           
B             CAR           ME            R             
BA            CAT           MEL           RAT           
BAA           D             MOUSE         RATS         
BAN           DOG           NA            RESTAURANT   
BANB          DRUG          NAN           S             
BANDANA       E             O             STEAM         
BANN          F             OPERA         TRAIN         
BAR           FA            ORAN          XO           
BARS          FAC           ORANGE        XOX           
BB            FISH          OXOXOXO                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 07:17:07 PM
Suppose the vowel-consonant theory is correct, then for 4 letters, we know:

VVxx is white (x = anything)
CVCV is white

CVCC is black
CVVC is black
CCVV is black
VCCC is black
VCCV is black
VCVC is black

CVVV, CCCC, CCCV, CCVC, VCVV are unknown.... so let's guess them!

Guesses:
BEAU
BCDF
BCDE
CLUB
EPEE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:18:19 PM
White Koans
AA            EAR           MELON         PINEAPPLE     
AAA           EARS          NANA          PIRA         
AE            EAT           NANAN         PIRAT         
AEI           EE            NANANA        PIRATE       
BANA          EEE           NANANAN       PIRATES       
BANANA        FACA          OO            RATE         
BANANAB       FACAD         OOO           RATES         
BANANANANA    FACADE        OOOX          UU           
BANANAS       HARE          OOOXX         UUU           
BANO          IEV           OOOXXX        XOXO         
CAKE          II            OOXX          XOXOX         
DANANA        III           OOXXX         XOXOXO       
DARE          KATE          OOXXXX        XOXOXOX       
EA            MELO          PINE          XOXOXOXO     

Black Koans
A             BBB           FA            ORANGE       
ABA           BCDE          FAC           OXOXOXO       
ABBA          BCDF          FISH          OXOXOXOX     
ANANAN        BEAU          ICE           P             
APPLE         BIRD          KA            PI           
B             C             KI            PIN           
BA            CAK           LEMMINGS      PIR           
BAA           CAR           M             R             
BAN           CAT           ME            RAT           
BANB          CLUB          MEL           RATS         
BANDANA       D             MOUSE         RESTAURANT   
BANN          DOG           NA            S             
BAR           DRUG          NAN           STEAM         
BARS          E             O             TRAIN         
BB            EPEE          OPERA         XO           
BBA           F             ORAN          XOX           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:22:36 PM
Terrible guess, but I'm going to go for it:

AKHTBN iff the first two letters are vowels
OR
the first letter is a consonant, and the first four letters follow the pattern consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:30:57 PM
You're getting very close. It is impossible to provide a black koan that would fit within those rules.

However, I can provide a white koan that does NOT fit within those rules.

White Koans
AA            EARS          NANAN         PIRATE       
AAA           EAT           NANANA        PIRATES       
AE            EE            NANANAN       RATE         
AEI           EEE           OO            RATES         
BANA          FACA          OOO           STRETCHER     
BANANA        FACAD         OOOX          UU           
BANANAB       FACADE        OOOXX         UUU           
BANANANANA    HARE          OOOXXX        XOXO         
BANANAS       IEV           OOXX          XOXOX         
BANO          II            OOXXX         XOXOXO       
CAKE          III           OOXXXX        XOXOXOX       
DANANA        KATE          PINE          XOXOXOXO     
DARE          MELO          PINEAPPLE                   
EA            MELON         PIRA                       
EAR           NANA          PIRAT                       

Black Koans
A             BBB           FA            ORANGE       
ABA           BCDE          FAC           OXOXOXO       
ABBA          BCDF          FISH          OXOXOXOX     
ANANAN        BEAU          ICE           P             
APPLE         BIRD          KA            PI           
B             C             KI            PIN           
BA            CAK           LEMMINGS      PIR           
BAA           CAR           M             R             
BAN           CAT           ME            RAT           
BANB          CLUB          MEL           RATS         
BANDANA       D             MOUSE         RESTAURANT   
BANN          DOG           NA            S             
BAR           DRUG          NAN           STEAM         
BARS          E             O             TRAIN         
BB            EPEE          OPERA         XO           
BBA           F             ORAN          XOX           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 07:35:46 PM
Guess: a koan has the buddha-nature if it contains at least two vowels at positions that are powers of 2.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:37:06 PM
"RESTAURANT" has vowels at the 2nd and 8th letter (powers of 2) and is on the black koans list.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 23, 2016, 07:37:12 PM
AKHTBN iff the koan is of shape (a)(a)(b), where (a) consists of 0 or more consonants followed by exactly one vovel. (b) may be empty string.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:41:46 PM
Quote from: Simon on May 23, 2016, 07:37:12 PM
AKHTBN iff the koan is of shape (a)(a)(b), where (a) consists of 0 or more consonants followed by exactly one vovel.

-- Simon

This definitely accounts for the fact that adding more letters can't make a white koan black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 07:42:02 PM
While the way you worded that doesn't convey the rule exactly, I think what you meant to suggest is correct, so I think we'll accept this as a victory.

For reference, I had two ways in mind of wording it:

a. "AKHTBN if the number of letters before the first vowel is the same as the number of letters between the first and second vowel"
b. "AKHTBN if, in the first (N * 2) letters, the Nth and (N * 2)th letters, and no others, are vowels"

Not that it ever came up, but I was not considering "Y" a vowel for this one.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 23, 2016, 07:45:28 PM
Awesome.

What other interpretation of my guess do you deem plausible?

I would like to pass hosting to Dullstar. He did an easy round, which was excellent but didn't last long, and Dullstar should be entitled to go again.

Edit 2016-05-25:
[09:52] <SimonN> namida42: re: last zendo round: what other interpretation of "(a)(a)(b) with (a) == (0 or more consonants)(1 vovel)" is possible?
[09:53] <namida42> my first interpretation of it is that the (a)s must be the same string; but they only have to be the same length to fulfill the actual rule
[09:53] <SimonN> smart, and 100 % correct
[09:54] <SimonN> maybe you should have busted the guess >_> not sure. Reasonable decision to let it pass
[09:54] <namida42> so, XYAZZA is fine; if i took your statement literally, it would ahve to be eg. XYAXYA
[09:54] <SimonN> yes, and the first is counterexample to the guess
[09:54] <namida42> but i figured that you meant just hte lenght, since there would be too many counterexamples against the first interpretation

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:54:12 PM
White: PINEAPPLE
Black: LOOPING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 07:57:45 PM
PINE
APPLE
LOOP
BANANA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 07:59:13 PM
White Koans
PINEAPPLE                                           

Black Koans
APPLE        LOOP         PINE                      
BANANA       LOOPING                               

EDIT: Formatting
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 23, 2016, 10:10:17 PM

BARBER
NANA
NANNA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 23, 2016, 11:48:15 PM
White Koans
PINEAPPLE                                           

Black Koans
APPLE        BARBER       LOOPING      NANNA       
BANANA       LOOP         NANA         PINE         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 23, 2016, 11:49:48 PM
Guess: A koan has the Buddha-nature if it is the string PINEAPPLE.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 24, 2016, 12:02:43 AM
I like that one Proxima. :thumbsup:

(Lets take a guess at the rule)

A koan has the buddha nature if it has four or more vowels.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 24, 2016, 12:09:58 AM
In case that wasn't the rule,

APPLEPINE
ELPPAENIP
PINEAPPL
INEAPPLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 24, 2016, 02:01:56 AM
Neither rule guess was correct.
Counterexample for each:
"AKHTBN iff it is the string PINEAPPLE" - GREAT is white.
"AKHTBN iff it has four or more vowels" - QUEUING is black.

White Koans
ELPPAENIP    GREAT        PINEAPPLE                 

Black Koans
APPLE        BARBER       LOOPING      PINE         
APPLEPINE    INEAPPLE     NANA         PINEAPPL     
BANANA       LOOP         NANNA        QUEUING     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 24, 2016, 02:17:35 AM
PINEAPPLES
IEAE
EA
EAEI
PNPPL
LPPNP
GRT
TRG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 24, 2016, 02:19:07 AM
MANGO
PEACH
PEAR
PLUM
CHERRY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 24, 2016, 02:35:15 AM
White Koans
ELPPAENIP     GREAT         PEACH         PINEAPPLE     

Black Koans
APPLE         EAEI          LPPNP         PINEAPPL     
APPLEPINE     GRT           MANGO         PINEAPPLES   
BANANA        IEAE          NANA          PLUM         
BARBER        INEAPPLE      NANNA         PNPPL         
CHERRY        LOOP          PEAR          QUEUING       
EA            LOOPING       PINE          TRG           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 24, 2016, 07:57:14 AM
GREATWITHSTUFF
GREA
REAT
EAT
EAP
PEA

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 24, 2016, 10:12:16 AM
White Koans
ELPPAENIP         GREAT             PEACH             PINEAPPLE         

Black Koans
APPLE             EAT               LPPNP             PINEAPPLES       
APPLEPINE         GREA              MANGO             PLUM             
BANANA            GREATWITHSTUFF    NANA              PNPPL             
BARBER            GRT               NANNA             QUEUING           
CHERRY            IEAE              PEA               REAT             
EA                INEAPPLE          PEAR              TRG               
EAEI              LOOP              PINE                               
EAP               LOOPING           PINEAPPL                           

Small hint to help focus koan selection:
Spoiler
There is a minimum length for white koans.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 24, 2016, 12:32:34 PM
TAERG
HCAEP
ABCDE
AEIOU
BCDFG
AAAAA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 24, 2016, 01:15:37 PM
PINEAPPLEE
PINEAPPEE
PINEAPPLEA
PCEAH
GEART
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 24, 2016, 03:28:19 PM
White Koans
ELPPAENIP         HCAEP             PINEAPPEE                          
GEART             PCEAH             PINEAPPLE                           
GREAT             PEACH             TAERG                              

Black Koans
AAAAA             EA                LOOP              PINEAPPL         
ABCDE             EAEI              LOOPING           PINEAPPLEA       
AEIOU             EAP               LPPNP             PINEAPPLEE       
APPLE             EAT               MANGO             PINEAPPLES       
APPLEPINE         GREA              NANA              PLUM             
BANANA            GREATWITHSTUFF    NANNA             PNPPL             
BARBER            GRT               PEA               QUEUING           
BCDFG             IEAE              PEAR              REAT             
CHERRY            INEAPPLE          PINE              TRG               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 25, 2016, 12:26:14 AM
Lemming
Tribe
Namida
Tango
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 04:49:51 AM
White Koans
ELPPAENIP         HCAEP             PINEAPPEE                           
GEART             PCEAH             PINEAPPLE                           
GREAT             PEACH             TAERG                               

Black Koans
AAAAA             EAEI              LOOPING           PINEAPPLEA       
ABCDE             EAP               LPPNP             PINEAPPLEE       
AEIOU             EAT               MANGO             PINEAPPLES       
APPLE             GREA              NAMIDA            PLUM             
APPLEPINE         GREATWITHSTUFF    NANA              PNPPL             
BANANA            GRT               NANNA             QUEUING           
BARBER            IEAE              PEA               REAT             
BCDFG             INEAPPLE          PEAR              TANGO             
CHERRY            LEMMING           PINE              TRG               
EA                LOOP              PINEAPPL          TRIBE             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 25, 2016, 05:20:01 AM
BEACH
REACH
NINEAPPLE
PINEBANANA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
White Koans
BEACH             GREAT             PCEAH             PINEAPPLE         
ELPPAENIP         HCAEP             PEACH             REACH             
GEART             NINEAPPLE         PINEAPPEE         TAERG             

Black Koans
AAAAA             EAP               MANGO             PINEBANANA       
ABCDE             EAT               NAMIDA            PLUM             
AEIOU             GREA              NANA              PNPPL             
APPLE             GREATWITHSTUFF    NANNA             QUEUING           
APPLEPINE         GRT               PEA               REAT             
BANANA            IEAE              PEAR              TANGO             
BARBER            INEAPPLE          PINE              TRG               
BCDFG             LEMMING           PINEAPPL          TRIBE             
CHERRY            LOOP              PINEAPPLEA                         
EA                LOOPING           PINEAPPLEE                         
EAEI              LPPNP             PINEAPPLES                         

Hint:
Spoiler
Adding exactly one letter to any given white koan will always result in a black koan. Adding a single letter to a black koan could possibly, but won't necessarily, make it white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 25, 2016, 07:33:44 AM
LEACH
IEACH
PEACE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 07:34:52 AM
White Koans
BEACH             HCAEP             PCEAH             PINEAPPLE         
ELPPAENIP         IEACH             PEACE             REACH             
GEART             LEACH             PEACH             TAERG             
GREAT             NINEAPPLE         PINEAPPEE                           

Black Koans
AAAAA             EAP               MANGO             PINEBANANA       
ABCDE             EAT               NAMIDA            PLUM             
AEIOU             GREA              NANA              PNPPL             
APPLE             GREATWITHSTUFF    NANNA             QUEUING           
APPLEPINE         GRT               PEA               REAT             
BANANA            IEAE              PEAR              TANGO             
BARBER            INEAPPLE          PINE              TRG               
BCDFG             LEMMING           PINEAPPL          TRIBE             
CHERRY            LOOP              PINEAPPLEA                         
EA                LOOPING           PINEAPPLEE                         
EAEI              LPPNP             PINEAPPLES                         

Reprinting the hint from my previous post since another post was made while I was editing the previous post:
Spoiler
Adding exactly one letter to any given white koan will always result in a black koan. Adding a single letter to a black koan could possibly, but won't necessarily, make it white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 25, 2016, 07:42:30 AM
The only useful thing I'm noticing so far is that all the white koans have an odd length. One theory I had was "If the middle letter is a vowel", and perhaps "If the middle letter is a unique vowel"; but QUEUING is a counterexample for the first, and TRIBE is a counterexample for both.

XXAXX
XAAAX
PPAPP
PPEPP
AAXAA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 07:44:19 AM
White Koans
AAXAA             GREAT             NINEAPPLE         PINEAPPEE         
BEACH             HCAEP             PCEAH             PINEAPPLE         
ELPPAENIP         IEACH             PEACE             REACH             
GEART             LEACH             PEACH             TAERG             

Black Koans
AAAAA             EAT               NANA              PPAPP             
ABCDE             GREA              NANNA             PPEPP             
AEIOU             GREATWITHSTUFF    PEA               QUEUING           
APPLE             GRT               PEAR              REAT             
APPLEPINE         IEAE              PINE              TANGO             
BANANA            INEAPPLE          PINEAPPL          TRG               
BARBER            LEMMING           PINEAPPLEA        TRIBE             
BCDFG             LOOP              PINEAPPLEE        XAAAX             
CHERRY            LOOPING           PINEAPPLES        XXAXX             
EA                LPPNP             PINEBANANA                         
EAEI              MANGO             PLUM                               
EAP               NAMIDA            PNPPL                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 25, 2016, 07:45:16 AM
AAPAA
AXXXA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 09:59:11 AM
White Koans
AAPAA             GREAT             PCEAH             REACH             
AAXAA             HCAEP             PEACE             TAERG             
BEACH             IEACH             PEACH                               
ELPPAENIP         LEACH             PINEAPPEE                           
GEART             NINEAPPLE         PINEAPPLE                           

Black Koans
AAAAA             EAP               NAMIDA            PNPPL             
ABCDE             EAT               NANA              PPAPP             
AEIOU             GREA              NANNA             PPEPP             
APPLE             GREATWITHSTUFF    PEA               QUEUING           
APPLEPINE         GRT               PEAR              REAT             
AXXXA             IEAE              PINE              TANGO             
BANANA            INEAPPLE          PINEAPPL          TRG               
BARBER            LEMMING           PINEAPPLEA        TRIBE             
BCDFG             LOOP              PINEAPPLEE        XAAAX             
CHERRY            LOOPING           PINEAPPLES        XXAXX             
EA                LPPNP             PINEBANANA                         
EAEI              MANGO             PLUM                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 25, 2016, 11:37:19 AM
PECAH
EPCHA
PIN
PEN
APE

Can I request that you refrain from giving hints unless the game shows signs of slowing down or one player explicitly asks for one?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Minim on May 25, 2016, 01:55:03 PM
Seeing all the koans, I think I know the clue.

AKHTBN (The koan is white) if the vowel's alphabetic position equals the length of the word.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 25, 2016, 02:07:03 PM
QuoteAKHTBN (The koan is white) if the vowel's alphabetic position equals the length of the word.

The very first koan on the white list invalidates that rule. A is the 1st letter of the alphabet, and AAPAA is 5 letters long. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
Also, which vowel if there's more than one different one?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Minim on May 25, 2016, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: namida on May 25, 2016, 02:07:03 PM
QuoteAKHTBN (The koan is white) if the vowel's alphabetic position equals the length of the word.

The very first koan on the white list invalidates that rule. A is the 1st letter of the alphabet, and AAPAA is 5 letters long. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Oops, you're right. :(
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 25, 2016, 02:37:52 PM
AEIOUXXXXYYYY
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ
PONEAPPLE
PANEAPPLE
GREAG

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 07:44:53 PM
White Koans
AAPAA                GREAT                PCEAH                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAA                HCAEP                PEACE                REACH               
BEACH                IEACH                PEACH                TAERG               
ELPPAENIP            LEACH                PECAH                                     
GEART                NINEAPPLE            PINEAPPEE                                 
GREAG                PANEAPPLE            PINEAPPLE                                 

Black Koans
AAAAA                EA                   LPPNP                PINEAPPLES           
ABCDE                EAEI                 MANGO                PINEBANANA           
AEIOU                EAP                  NAMIDA               PLUM                 
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EAT                  NANA                 PNPPL               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                NANNA                PPAPP               
APE                  GREA                 PEA                  PPEPP               
APPLE                GREATWITHSTUFF       PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            GRT                  PEN                  REAT                 
AXXXA                IEAE                 PIN                  TANGO               
BANANA               INEAPPLE             PINE                 TRG                 
BARBER               LEMMING              PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BCDFG                LOOP                 PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
CHERRY               LOOPING              PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on May 25, 2016, 08:09:29 PM
GGGAA
GGGAE
A
PPPPPAAAA

That koan tool produces excessive whitespace. There should never be whitespace at end of line. :lix-cry:

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 25, 2016, 08:22:07 PM
White Koans
AAPAA                GREAT                PCEAH                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAA                HCAEP                PEACE                REACH               
BEACH                IEACH                PEACH                TAERG               
ELPPAENIP            LEACH                PECAH                                     
GEART                NINEAPPLE            PINEAPPEE                                 
GREAG                PANEAPPLE            PINEAPPLE                                 

Black Koans
A                    EA                   LOOPING              PINEAPPLES           
AAAAA                EAEI                 LPPNP                PINEBANANA           
ABCDE                EAP                  MANGO                PLUM                 
AEIOU                EAT                  NAMIDA               PNPPL               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                NANA                 PPAPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                NANNA                PPEPP               
APE                  GGGAE                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APPLE                GREA                 PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            GREATWITHSTUFF       PEN                  REAT                 
AXXXA                GRT                  PIN                  TANGO               
BANANA               IEAE                 PINE                 TRG                 
BARBER               INEAPPLE             PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BCDFG                LEMMING              PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
CHERRY               LOOP                 PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 25, 2016, 08:34:13 PM
POMEGRANATE
POSTMODERNISM
LEMMINGOLOGICAL
HACEP
ACEHP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 25, 2016, 10:57:43 PM
Cheaps
Pizzas
Cash
Lemon



Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 26, 2016, 11:51:40 AM
White Koans
AAPAA                GREAT                NINEAPPLE            PINEAPPEE           
AAXAA                HACEP                PANEAPPLE            PINEAPPLE           
BEACH                HCAEP                PCEAH                PONEAPPLE           
ELPPAENIP            IEACH                PEACE                POSTMODERNISM       
GEART                LEACH                PEACH                REACH               
GREAG                LEMON                PECAH                TAERG               

Black Koans
A                    CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZAS               
AAAAA                EA                   LPPNP                PLUM                 
ABCDE                EAEI                 MANGO                PNPPL               
ACEHP                EAP                  NAMIDA               POMEGRANATE         
AEIOU                EAT                  NANA                 PPAPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                NANNA                PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  GGGAE                PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLE                GREA                 PEN                  REAT                 
APPLEPINE            GREATWITHSTUFF       PIN                  TANGO               
AXXXA                GRT                  PINE                 TRG                 
BANANA               IEAE                 PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BARBER               INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BCDFG                LEMMING              PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
CASH                 LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEAPPLES                               
CHEAPS               LOOP                 PINEBANANA                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 26, 2016, 11:56:28 AM
BACEIDFGO
BACEIBBDE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 26, 2016, 12:31:16 PM
White Koans
AAPAA                GREAG                NINEAPPLE            PINEAPPLE           
AAXAA                GREAT                PANEAPPLE            PONEAPPLE           
BACEIBBDE            HACEP                PCEAH                POSTMODERNISM       
BACEIDFGO            HCAEP                PEACE                REACH               
BEACH                IEACH                PEACH                TAERG               
ELPPAENIP            LEACH                PECAH                                     
GEART                LEMON                PINEAPPEE                                 

Black Koans
A                    CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZAS               
AAAAA                EA                   LPPNP                PLUM                 
ABCDE                EAEI                 MANGO                PNPPL               
ACEHP                EAP                  NAMIDA               POMEGRANATE         
AEIOU                EAT                  NANA                 PPAPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                NANNA                PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  GGGAE                PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLE                GREA                 PEN                  REAT                 
APPLEPINE            GREATWITHSTUFF       PIN                  TANGO               
AXXXA                GRT                  PINE                 TRG                 
BANANA               IEAE                 PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BARBER               INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BCDFG                LEMMING              PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
CASH                 LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEAPPLES                               
CHEAPS               LOOP                 PINEBANANA                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 26, 2016, 12:50:34 PM
PPLEAPINE
ATEGR
ONMLE

Spoiler
While I have no idea about the whole rule, I think I've picked up on one thing that may be significant. If my theory is right, these should all be white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 26, 2016, 10:56:12 PM
accommodationists
anthropogenically
Codes
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 26, 2016, 10:59:08 PM
AEACH
AAACH
AAAAH
PIZZA
CHIPS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 26, 2016, 11:04:01 PM
Cool you went for pizza as well Proxima but without the s
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 26, 2016, 11:51:27 PM
White Koans
AAACH                CODES                LEACH                PINEAPPEE           
AAPAA                ELPPAENIP            LEMON                PINEAPPLE           
AAXAA                GEART                NINEAPPLE            PONEAPPLE           
AEACH                GREAG                PANEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAT                PCEAH                PPLEAPINE           
BACEIBBDE            HACEP                PEACE                REACH               
BACEIDFGO            HCAEP                PEACH                TAERG               
BEACH                IEACH                PECAH                                     

Black Koans
A                    CASH                 LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEAPPLES           
AAAAA                CHEAPS               LOOP                 PINEBANANA           
AAAAH                CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZA               
ABCDE                CHIPS                LPPNP                PIZZAS               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EA                   MANGO                PLUM                 
ACEHP                EAEI                 NAMIDA               PNPPL               
AEIOU                EAP                  NANA                 POMEGRANATE         
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EAT                  NANNA                PPAPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                ONMLE                PPEPP               
APE                  GGGAA                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APPLE                GGGAE                PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            GREA                 PEN                  REAT                 
ATEGR                GREATWITHSTUFF       PIN                  TANGO               
AXXXA                GRT                  PINE                 TRG                 
BANANA               IEAE                 PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BARBER               INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BCDFG                LEMMING              PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 27, 2016, 09:14:04 PM
(I thought those two big words I posted would of been white. oops)

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 27, 2016, 09:20:30 PM
Well, one of them was. Which helps confirm a partial pattern: so far, all white koans have length 4n + 1 (5, 9, 13, 17). I'm not sure where that gets us, though.

AECAH
AACAH
XXXXX
CHEAP
EEEEE
PPPPP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 27, 2016, 09:24:46 PM
You are right Proxima, I was looking at something called the Hilbert number sequence which goes like (5, 9, 13, 17).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 28, 2016, 02:57:47 AM
White Koans
AAACH                BEACH                IEACH                PINEAPPEE           
AACAH                CHEAP                LEACH                PINEAPPLE           
AAPAA                CODES                LEMON                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAA                ELPPAENIP            NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
AEACH                GEART                PANEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
AECAH                GREAG                PCEAH                REACH               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAT                PEACE                TAERG               
BACEIBBDE            HACEP                PEACH                                     
BACEIDFGO            HCAEP                PECAH                                     

Black Koans
A                    CHEAPS               LOOP                 PIZZA               
AAAAA                CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZAS               
AAAAH                CHIPS                LPPNP                PLUM                 
ABCDE                EA                   MANGO                PNPPL               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EAEI                 NAMIDA               POMEGRANATE         
ACEHP                EAP                  NANA                 PPAPP               
AEIOU                EAT                  NANNA                PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EEEEE                ONMLE                PPPPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  GGGAA                PEAR                 QUEUING             
APPLE                GGGAE                PEN                  REAT                 
APPLEPINE            GREA                 PIN                  TANGO               
ATEGR                GREATWITHSTUFF       PINE                 TRG                 
AXXXA                GRT                  PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BANANA               IEAE                 PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BARBER               INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
BCDFG                LEMMING              PINEAPPLES           XXXXX               
CASH                 LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEBANANA                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Minim on May 28, 2016, 06:46:05 AM
OK then. considering all the clues I think I've got the answer. Here's my second guess.

AKHTBN if any letter part of the word HILBERT is contained in a word of 1, 5, 9, 13... (i.e. a Hilbert number) letters long.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 28, 2016, 01:03:55 PM
That can't be it, because AAXAA is white and AAAAH is black. Also, there are some examples of anagrams having differing status.

AEAAH
ELPPA
EPCAH
IIIII
HHHHH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Gronkling on May 28, 2016, 02:04:43 PM
AAAAXAAAA
XAXAX
OOXOO
AOXOA
AOXAO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 28, 2016, 09:01:47 PM
qqqqq
mmmmm
ooooo
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 29, 2016, 05:31:24 AM
As has been pointed out, there's a counterexample for "containing any letter contained in HILBERT" but there is not a counterexample for the length being a Hilbert number (incidentally I just learned what those are today, since I decided to look it up), so I figured I'll provide one:  ADENINE (length 7) is white.

A hint about the length of koans is available upon request.

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            AOXOA                HACEP                PEACH               
AAACH                BACEIBBDE            HCAEP                PECAH               
AACAH                BACEIDFGO            IEACH                PINEAPPEE           
AAPAA                BEACH                LEACH                PINEAPPLE           
AAXAA                CHEAP                LEMON                PONEAPPLE           
ADENINE              CODES                NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
AEACH                ELPPAENIP            OOXOO                PPLEAPINE           
AECAH                GEART                PANEAPPLE            REACH               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PCEAH                TAERG               
AOXAO                GREAT                PEACE                XAXAX               

Black Koans
A                    CHERRY               LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEBANANA           
AAAAA                CHIPS                LOOP                 PIZZA               
AAAAH                EA                   LOOPING              PIZZAS               
ABCDE                EAEI                 LPPNP                PLUM                 
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EAP                  MANGO                PNPPL               
ACEHP                EAT                  MMMMM                POMEGRANATE         
AEAAH                EEEEE                NAMIDA               PPAPP               
AEIOU                ELPPA                NANA                 PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCAH                NANNA                PPPPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                ONMLE                PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  GGGAA                OOOOO                QQQQQ               
APPLE                GGGAE                PEA                  QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            GREA                 PEAR                 REAT                 
ATEGR                GREATWITHSTUFF       PEN                  TANGO               
AXXXA                GRT                  PIN                  TRG                 
BANANA               HHHHH                PINE                 TRIBE               
BARBER               IEAE                 PINEAPPL             XAAAX               
BCDFG                IIIII                PINEAPPLEA           XXAXX               
CASH                 INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLEE           XXXXX               
CHEAPS               LEMMING              PINEAPPLES                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on May 29, 2016, 08:21:45 AM
As mentioned earlier, I don't think it's possible for an even-length koan to be white. This does fit with the earlier hints about how adding a single letter to a white koan will always make a black one; but adding a single letter to a black koan could make a white one. However, Dullstar did also mention there's a minimum length - so far, the shortest we have found is five letters long. I would assume the hint doesn't intend to merely rule out the empty koan, but would at least suggest that no single-letter koan can be white. We don't have any three-letter koans that are white yet, but I wouldn't be prepared to rule them out at this stage.

At a glance (there might be something I missed) it also appears that if a koan is white, the same koan in reverse is also white. This leads me to believe it has something to do with symmetry in some way.

I'd also believe it's something to do with the vowel / consonant structure. In particular, look at "BACEIBBDE" and "BACEIDFGO". These both follow the same consonant / vowel structure as PINEAPPLE, just with different letters - the former takes into account repetition (ie: "P" is always replaced with "B"), while the latter does not (ie: every consonant is replaced with another, unique consonant; and every vowel with another, unique vowel).

However, unless it's nothing to do with vowels and consonants directly, and simply a matter of specific letters with the vowels just happening to fall into the pattern correctly (or perhaps that it doesn't have to match 100%), there are counterexamples to it being this simple - "AACAH" comes to mind. (I chose to use this as the example and not "AAACH", in case it's relative (ie: VV can match CC, but eg. CCV couldn't match CVC).)

Let's try something.

PINEBPPLE
PINEEPPLE
PINEXPPLE
PINEOPPLE
PINEYPPLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 29, 2016, 12:39:08 PM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            BACEIBBDE            IEACH                PINEAPPLE           
AAACH                BACEIDFGO            LEACH                PINEEPPLE           
AACAH                BEACH                LEMON                PINEOPPLE           
AAPAA                CHEAP                NINEAPPLE            PONEAPPLE           
AAXAA                CODES                OOXOO                POSTMODERNISM       
ADENINE              ELPPAENIP            PANEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
AEACH                GEART                PCEAH                REACH               
AECAH                GREAG                PEACE                TAERG               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAT                PEACH                XAXAX               
AOXAO                HACEP                PECAH                                     
AOXOA                HCAEP                PINEAPPEE                                 

Black Koans
A                    CHIPS                LOOPING              PINEYPPLE           
AAAAA                EA                   LPPNP                PIZZA               
AAAAH                EAEI                 MANGO                PIZZAS               
ABCDE                EAP                  MMMMM                PLUM                 
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EAT                  NAMIDA               PNPPL               
ACEHP                EEEEE                NANA                 POMEGRANATE         
AEAAH                ELPPA                NANNA                PPAPP               
AEIOU                EPCAH                ONMLE                PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                OOOOO                PPPPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                PEA                  PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  GGGAE                PEAR                 QQQQQ               
APPLE                GREA                 PEN                  QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            GREATWITHSTUFF       PIN                  REAT                 
ATEGR                GRT                  PINE                 TANGO               
AXXXA                HHHHH                PINEAPPL             TRG                 
BANANA               IEAE                 PINEAPPLEA           TRIBE               
BARBER               IIIII                PINEAPPLEE           XAAAX               
BCDFG                INEAPPLE             PINEAPPLES           XXAXX               
CASH                 LEMMING              PINEBANANA           XXXXX               
CHEAPS               LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEBPPLE                                 
CHERRY               LOOP                 PINEXPPLE                                 

Here's some information about the koan "PINEYPPLE" that is only to prevent any misunderstandings and not intended as a hint:
As you may recall, the rule last time I hosted was the fairly quickly identified "AKHTBN iff it alternates between vowels and consonants, e.g. BANANA."
This rule did have one minor gray area that never came up: how to handle the letter Y.  I believe the round immediately prior to this rule also had an affected rule.
While PINEYPPLE would definitely be black under my previous rule, for the purposes of consistency, I would have evaluated the letter Y as a consonant regardless of the use. That will remain true in any rounds I host in which the vowel/consonant structure matters. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you whether or not this rule would be affected by the vowel/consonant status of Y, as that would be too big of a hint.

Also, I'm just going to go ahead and give the hint about koan length, since I feel it may be unreasonable to identify due to that specific portion being overly arbitrary:
Spoiler
I've actually arbitrarily defined the minimum koan length in the rule, since I felt that, while shorter koans could potentially uphold the letter of the rule, they violated its spirit; so a provision was added explicitly excluding them.  At least one koan has been guessed that would have been white if it were not for this provision.  There would still be a minimum length without this provision, but it would be shorter.

There's a second reason I did this as well, but I won't reveal it until after the rule is identified.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on May 29, 2016, 03:04:09 PM
AAAAAAAAA (nine)
BBBBBBBBB (nine)
AAACA
CCCAC
CCCCA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Gronkling on May 29, 2016, 03:14:59 PM
AXA

AAAXAAA
AXAXAXA

AAXAXAXAA
AXAAXAAXA
AAXAXAAXA
AAAXXXAAA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 30, 2016, 03:40:09 AM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PEACH               
AAACA                AOXAO                GREAT                PECAH               
AAACH                AOXOA                HACEP                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              AXAAXAAXA            HCAEP                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                AXAXAXA              IEACH                PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                BACEIBBDE            LEACH                PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                BACEIDFGO            LEMON                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAAXA            BEACH                NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
AAXAXAXAA            CHEAP                OOXOO                PPLEAPINE           
ADENINE              CODES                PANEAPPLE            REACH               
AEACH                ELPPAENIP            PCEAH                TAERG               
AECAH                GEART                PEACE                XAXAX               

Black Koans
A                    CASH                 INEAPPLE             PINEBANANA           
AAAAA                CCCAC                LEMMING              PINEBPPLE           
AAAAAAAAA            CCCCA                LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEXPPLE           
AAAAH                CHEAPS               LOOP                 PINEYPPLE           
AAAXXXAAA            CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZA               
ABCDE                CHIPS                LPPNP                PIZZAS               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EA                   MANGO                PLUM                 
ACEHP                EAEI                 MMMMM                PNPPL               
AEAAH                EAP                  NAMIDA               POMEGRANATE         
AEIOU                EAT                  NANA                 PPAPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EEEEE                NANNA                PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    ELPPA                ONMLE                PPPPP               
APE                  EPCAH                OOOOO                PPPPPAAAA           
APPLE                EPCHA                PEA                  QQQQQ               
APPLEPINE            GGGAA                PEAR                 QUEUING             
ATEGR                GGGAE                PEN                  REAT                 
AXA                  GREA                 PIN                  TANGO               
AXXXA                GREATWITHSTUFF       PINE                 TRG                 
BANANA               GRT                  PINEAPPL             TRIBE               
BARBER               HHHHH                PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BBBBBBBBB            IEAE                 PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
BCDFG                IIIII                PINEAPPLES           XXXXX               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on May 30, 2016, 01:31:57 PM
(Maybe we might be best looking at the earlier koan list when there was only one or two white koans)

WinterBanana
Computers
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on May 30, 2016, 10:34:03 PM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PEACH               
AAACA                AOXAO                GREAT                PECAH               
AAACH                AOXOA                HACEP                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              AXAAXAAXA            HCAEP                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                AXAXAXA              IEACH                PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                BACEIBBDE            LEACH                PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                BACEIDFGO            LEMON                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAAXA            BEACH                NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
AAXAXAXAA            CHEAP                OOXOO                PPLEAPINE           
ADENINE              CODES                PANEAPPLE            REACH               
AEACH                ELPPAENIP            PCEAH                TAERG               
AECAH                GEART                PEACE                XAXAX               

Black Koans
A                    CCCAC                LEMMING              PINEXPPLE           
AAAAA                CCCCA                LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEYPPLE           
AAAAAAAAA            CHEAPS               LOOP                 PIZZA               
AAAAH                CHERRY               LOOPING              PIZZAS               
AAAXXXAAA            CHIPS                LPPNP                PLUM                 
ABCDE                COMPUTERS            MANGO                PNPPL               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    EA                   MMMMM                POMEGRANATE         
ACEHP                EAEI                 NAMIDA               PPAPP               
AEAAH                EAP                  NANA                 PPEPP               
AEIOU                EAT                  NANNA                PPPPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EEEEE                ONMLE                PPPPPAAAA           
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    ELPPA                OOOOO                QQQQQ               
APE                  EPCAH                PEA                  QUEUING             
APPLE                EPCHA                PEAR                 REAT                 
APPLEPINE            GGGAA                PEN                  TANGO               
ATEGR                GGGAE                PIN                  TRG                 
AXA                  GREA                 PINE                 TRIBE               
AXXXA                GREATWITHSTUFF       PINEAPPL             WINTERBANANA         
BANANA               GRT                  PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BARBER               HHHHH                PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
BBBBBBBBB            IEAE                 PINEAPPLES           XXXXX               
BCDFG                IIIII                PINEBANANA                               
CASH                 INEAPPLE             PINEBPPLE                                 
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on June 03, 2016, 12:06:06 AM
Killerapple
Forum
Design
Kebab
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 03, 2016, 07:41:08 AM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            AOXAO                GREAT                PEACH               
AAACA                AOXOA                HACEP                PECAH               
AAACH                AXAAXAAXA            HCAEP                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              AXAXAXA              IEACH                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                BACEIBBDE            KEBAB                PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                BACEIDFGO            KILLERAPPLE          PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                BEACH                LEACH                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAAXA            CHEAP                LEMON                POSTMODERNISM       
AAXAXAXAA            CODES                NINEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
ADENINE              ELPPAENIP            OOXOO                REACH               
AEACH                FORUM                PANEAPPLE            TAERG               
AECAH                GEART                PCEAH                XAXAX               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PEACE                                     

Black Koans
A                    CCCAC                INEAPPLE             PINEBPPLE           
AAAAA                CCCCA                LEMMING              PINEXPPLE           
AAAAAAAAA            CHEAPS               LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PINEYPPLE           
AAAAH                CHERRY               LOOP                 PIZZA               
AAAXXXAAA            CHIPS                LOOPING              PIZZAS               
ABCDE                COMPUTERS            LPPNP                PLUM                 
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    DESIGN               MANGO                PNPPL               
ACEHP                EA                   MMMMM                POMEGRANATE         
AEAAH                EAEI                 NAMIDA               PPAPP               
AEIOU                EAP                  NANA                 PPEPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EAT                  NANNA                PPPPP               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EEEEE                ONMLE                PPPPPAAAA           
APE                  ELPPA                OOOOO                QQQQQ               
APPLE                EPCAH                PEA                  QUEUING             
APPLEPINE            EPCHA                PEAR                 REAT                 
ATEGR                GGGAA                PEN                  TANGO               
AXA                  GGGAE                PIN                  TRG                 
AXXXA                GREA                 PINE                 TRIBE               
BANANA               GREATWITHSTUFF       PINEAPPL             WINTERBANANA         
BARBER               GRT                  PINEAPPLEA           XAAAX               
BBBBBBBBB            HHHHH                PINEAPPLEE           XXAXX               
BCDFG                IEAE                 PINEAPPLES           XXXXX               
CASH                 IIIII                PINEBANANA                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Colorful Arty on June 03, 2016, 05:58:00 PM
Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobiacs
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 04, 2016, 06:02:20 AM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA                          AOXAO                              GREAT                              PEACH                             
AAACA                              AOXOA                              HACEP                              PECAH                             
AAACH                              AXAAXAAXA                          HCAEP                              PINEAPPEE                         
AAAXAAA                            AXAXAXA                            IEACH                              PINEAPPLE                         
AACAH                              BACEIBBDE                          KEBAB                              PINEEPPLE                         
AAPAA                              BACEIDFGO                          KILLERAPPLE                        PINEOPPLE                         
AAXAA                              BEACH                              LEACH                              PONEAPPLE                         
AAXAXAAXA                          CHEAP                              LEMON                              POSTMODERNISM                     
AAXAXAXAA                          CODES                              NINEAPPLE                          PPLEAPINE                         
ADENINE                            ELPPAENIP                          OOXOO                              REACH                             
AEACH                              FORUM                              PANEAPPLE                          TAERG                             
AECAH                              GEART                              PCEAH                              XAXAX                             
ANTHROPOGENICALLY                  GREAG                              PEACE                                                                 

Black Koans
A                                  CCCAC                              IIIII                              PINEBANANA                         
AAAAA                              CCCCA                              INEAPPLE                           PINEBPPLE                         
AAAAAAAAA                          CHEAPS                             LEMMING                            PINEXPPLE                         
AAAAH                              CHERRY                             LEMMINGOLOGICAL                    PINEYPPLE                         
AAAXXXAAA                          CHIPS                              LOOP                               PIZZA                             
ABCDE                              COMPUTERS                          LOOPING                            PIZZAS                             
ACCOMMODATIONISTS                  DESIGN                             LPPNP                              PLUM                               
ACEHP                              EA                                 MANGO                              PNPPL                             
AEAAH                              EAEI                               MMMMM                              POMEGRANATE                       
AEIOU                              EAP                                NAMIDA                             PPAPP                             
AEIOUXXXXYYYY                      EAT                                NANA                               PPEPP                             
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ                  EEEEE                              NANNA                              PPPPP                             
APE                                ELPPA                              ONMLE                              PPPPPAAAA                         
APPLE                              EPCAH                              OOOOO                              QQQQQ                             
APPLEPINE                          EPCHA                              PEA                                QUEUING                           
ATEGR                              GGGAA                              PEAR                               REAT                               
AXA                                GGGAE                              PEN                                TANGO                             
AXXXA                              GREA                               PIN                                TRG                               
BANANA                             GREATWITHSTUFF                     PINE                               TRIBE                             
BARBER                             GRT                                PINEAPPL                           WINTERBANANA                       
BBBBBBBBB                          HEXAKOSIOIHEXEKONTAHEXAPHOBIACS    PINEAPPLEA                         XAAAX                             
BCDFG                              HHHHH                              PINEAPPLEE                         XXAXX                             
CASH                               IEAE                               PINEAPPLES                         XXXXX                             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 04, 2016, 09:36:39 AM
Ugh. The list is impossible to read now, and in any case I've run out of ideas. Now this is the time when it's appropriate to give us some helpful hints.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on June 04, 2016, 11:38:15 PM
Something must of happened to that list, as it looks like it has crashed. lol
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 05, 2016, 03:59:12 PM
Hint:
Spoiler
Only three letters in the koan determine whether it is white or black.  The rest don't matter as long as 1) the total number of letters is odd and 2) the koan is a minimum of five letters.

Here is an abridged koan list removing the black koans which meet neither of the criteria given in the hint.  The extremely long black koan has also been removed for readability.

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            AOXAO                GREAT                PEACH               
AAACA                AOXOA                HACEP                PECAH               
AAACH                AXAAXAAXA            HCAEP                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              AXAXAXA              IEACH                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                BACEIBBDE            KEBAB                PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                BACEIDFGO            KILLERAPPLE          PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                BEACH                LEACH                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAAXA            CHEAP                LEMON                POSTMODERNISM       
AAXAXAXAA            CODES                NINEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
ADENINE              ELPPAENIP            OOXOO                REACH               
AEACH                FORUM                PANEAPPLE            TAERG               
AECAH                GEART                PCEAH                XAXAX               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PEACE                                     

Black Koans
A                    ATEGR                IIIII                POMEGRANATE         
AAAAA                AXXXA                LEMMING              PPAPP               
AAAAAAAAA            BBBBBBBBB            LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PPEPP               
AAAAH                BCDFG                LOOPING              PPPPP               
AAAXXXAAA            CCCAC                LPPNP                PPPPPAAAA           
ABCDE                CCCCA                MANGO                QQQQQ               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    CHIPS                MMMMM                QUEUING             
ACEHP                COMPUTERS            NANNA                TANGO               
AEAAH                EEEEE                ONMLE                TRIBE               
AEIOU                ELPPA                OOOOO                XAAAX               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCAH                PINEBPPLE            XXAXX               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                PINEXPPLE            XXXXX               
APE                  GGGAA                PINEYPPLE                                 
APPLE                GGGAE                PIZZA                                     
APPLEPINE            HHHHH                PNPPL                                     

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on June 05, 2016, 09:24:01 PM
Here's a few more koans. :)

Lem
Pop
Pea
Jab
Paa
mum
sim
lap
kop

oops I may of misread the hint sorry Dullstar. :-[

Here's my koans.

Pearl
Lemmm
Strug
Maaat
Poutt
Caana
Polic
Kapuu

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 05, 2016, 10:31:14 PM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            AOXOA                HACEP                PEARL               
AAACA                AXAAXAAXA            HCAEP                PECAH               
AAACH                AXAXAXA              IEACH                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              BACEIBBDE            KAPUU                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                BACEIDFGO            KEBAB                PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                BEACH                KILLERAPPLE          PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                CAANA                LEACH                POLIC               
AAXAXAAXA            CHEAP                LEMON                PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAXAA            CODES                NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
ADENINE              ELPPAENIP            OOXOO                POUTT               
AEACH                FORUM                PANEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
AECAH                GEART                PCEAH                REACH               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAG                PEACE                TAERG               
AOXAO                GREAT                PEACH                XAXAX               

Black Koans
A                    ATEGR                IIIII                PIZZA               
AAAAA                AXXXA                LEMMING              PNPPL               
AAAAAAAAA            BBBBBBBBB            LEMMINGOLOGICAL      POMEGRANATE         
AAAAH                BCDFG                LEMMM                PPAPP               
AAAXXXAAA            CCCAC                LOOPING              PPEPP               
ABCDE                CCCCA                LPPNP                PPPPP               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    CHIPS                MAAAT                PPPPPAAAA           
ACEHP                COMPUTERS            MANGO                QQQQQ               
AEAAH                EEEEE                MMMMM                QUEUING             
AEIOU                ELPPA                NANNA                STRUG               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCAH                ONMLE                TANGO               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    EPCHA                OOOOO                TRIBE               
APE                  GGGAA                PINEBPPLE            XAAAX               
APPLE                GGGAE                PINEXPPLE            XXAXX               
APPLEPINE            HHHHH                PINEYPPLE            XXXXX               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on June 08, 2016, 07:18:42 PM
Pearn
pontt
kapii
palic
lemming
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 10, 2016, 02:59:05 PM
White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            AXAAXAAXA            IEACH                PEARN               
AAACA                AXAXAXA              KAPII                PECAH               
AAACH                BACEIBBDE            KAPUU                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              BACEIDFGO            KEBAB                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                BEACH                KILLERAPPLE          PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                CAANA                LEACH                PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                CHEAP                LEMON                POLIC               
AAXAXAAXA            CODES                NINEAPPLE            PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAXAA            ELPPAENIP            OOXOO                POSTMODERNISM       
ADENINE              FORUM                PALIC                POUTT               
AEACH                GEART                PANEAPPLE            PPLEAPINE           
AECAH                GREAG                PCEAH                REACH               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    GREAT                PEACE                TAERG               
AOXAO                HACEP                PEACH                XAXAX               
AOXOA                HCAEP                PEARL                                     

Black Koans
A                    AXXXA                LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PONTT               
AAAAA                BBBBBBBBB            LEMMM                PPAPP               
AAAAAAAAA            BCDFG                LOOPING              PPEPP               
AAAAH                CCCAC                LPPNP                PPPPP               
AAAXXXAAA            CCCCA                MAAAT                PPPPPAAAA           
ABCDE                CHIPS                MANGO                QQQQQ               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    COMPUTERS            MMMMM                QUEUING             
ACEHP                EEEEE                NANNA                STRUG               
AEAAH                ELPPA                ONMLE                TANGO               
AEIOU                EPCAH                OOOOO                TRIBE               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                PINEBPPLE            XAAAX               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                PINEXPPLE            XXAXX               
APE                  GGGAE                PINEYPPLE            XXXXX               
APPLE                HHHHH                PIZZA                                     
APPLEPINE            IIIII                PNPPL                                     
ATEGR                LEMMING              POMEGRANATE                               

Spoiler
More on "only three letters determine whether a koan is white or black"

Pretend the letters that matter are the first, third, and fifth letters of a koan (this isn't true of the rule, but we'll use it for the sake of example).
Also pretend that the koan AxBxC is white (it wouldn't be, but again, for the sake of example...), where "x" represents any letter.  The koans AxCxB, BxAxC, BxCxA, CxAxB, and CxBxA would also be white.

Generally speaking, the three important letters must be in a specific location in the koan, but may be in any order within those positions.

The positions may be either relative to the koan length (e.g. last three letters) or fixed (e.g. 1st, 2nd, and 4th letters).
There may be more than one letter that works in the slots.  In the above example, perhaps ExBxC would also work as a white koan despite not containing the letter A.

---

Why might it be impossible to have an even length white koan?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 10, 2016, 11:17:09 PM
Ugh. It's very inconvenient that LOOPING is black, as I could explain everything else except that... but that presumably can't be marked incorrectly, as it was the original black koan given for this round.

Well, let's probe a bit more.

LOPIG
OOPIN
LAAPING
LOOMING
LOPOING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 11, 2016, 03:41:56 AM
Oh, dear.  My bad.  I actually simplified the rule slightly veeeeery early on (there had been maaaaybe one or two koan posts at the time I did it?), thinking that no koans were out that would have been affected by the change, buuuut somehow I missed LOOPING, which is, indeed, under the changes, white, and, embarrassingly, was the original black koan I gave.

More details (I've marked with a spoiler but I don't believe this should give any new relevant information that wasn't divulged in earlier hints)
In some of the earlier hints
Spoiler
you may recall this example:

QuotePretend the letters that matter are the first, third, and fifth letters of a koan (this isn't true of the rule, but we'll use it for the sake of example).
Also pretend that the koan AxBxC is white (it wouldn't be, but again, for the sake of example...), where "x" represents any letter.  The koans AxCxB, BxAxC, BxCxA, CxAxB, and CxBxA would also be white.

Generally speaking, the three important letters must be in a specific location in the koan, but may be in any order within those positions.

Originally I had it so the letters had to be in the same order as they appeared in PINEAPPLE, which is probably why I chose LOOPING as the first black koan - everything the rule asked for is in it, but it's not in the right order.  Upon further thought, though, I thought it was going to be too difficult, so I decided that it would be fine as long as it was there...  and didn't double check the lists for affected koans, because there were only like no more then 10 koans at that time.

Sorry about that. :XD:

I checked for other erroneously marked koans and didn't find any, but due to sheer numbers, it wouldn't surprise me if there's at least one hiding around here.
I DID find two black koans that should have been left off of the abridged list, but I'll fix that next time I post a koan list instead of editing this one.
Next time I host, I'm definitely going with an easier rule.

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA            BACEIBBDE            KILLERAPPLE          PEARN               
AAACA                BACEIDFGO            LAAPING              PECAH               
AAACH                BEACH                LEACH                PINEAPPEE           
AAAXAAA              CAANA                LEMON                PINEAPPLE           
AACAH                CHEAP                LOOMING              PINEEPPLE           
AAPAA                CODES                LOOPING              PINEOPPLE           
AAXAA                ELPPAENIP            LOPIG                POLIC               
AAXAXAAXA            FORUM                LOPOING              PONEAPPLE           
AAXAXAXAA            GEART                NINEAPPLE            POSTMODERNISM       
ADENINE              GREAG                OOPIN                POUTT               
AEACH                GREAT                OOXOO                PPLEAPINE           
AECAH                HACEP                PALIC                REACH               
ANTHROPOGENICALLY    HCAEP                PANEAPPLE            TAERG               
AOXAO                IEACH                PCEAH                XAXAX               
AOXOA                KAPII                PEACE                                     
AXAAXAAXA            KAPUU                PEACH                                     
AXAXAXA              KEBAB                PEARL                                     

Black Koans
A                    AXXXA                LEMMINGOLOGICAL      PONTT               
AAAAA                BBBBBBBBB            LEMMM                PPAPP               
AAAAAAAAA            BCDFG                LOOPING              PPEPP               
AAAAH                CCCAC                LPPNP                PPPPP               
AAAXXXAAA            CCCCA                MAAAT                PPPPPAAAA           
ABCDE                CHIPS                MANGO                QQQQQ               
ACCOMMODATIONISTS    COMPUTERS            MMMMM                QUEUING             
ACEHP                EEEEE                NANNA                STRUG               
AEAAH                ELPPA                ONMLE                TANGO               
AEIOU                EPCAH                OOOOO                TRIBE               
AEIOUXXXXYYYY        EPCHA                PINEBPPLE            XAAAX               
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ    GGGAA                PINEXPPLE            XXAXX               
APE                  GGGAE                PINEYPPLE            XXXXX               
APPLE                HHHHH                PIZZA                                     
APPLEPINE            IIIII                PNPPL                                     
ATEGR                LEMMING              POMEGRANATE                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 11, 2016, 10:52:14 AM
Then I guess that, of the middle three letters, exactly two must be vowels.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 11, 2016, 07:54:32 PM
That is indeed correct. :D
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on June 11, 2016, 09:56:13 PM
Welldone Proxima, :thumbsup: that was a hard rule to get but a good one by Dullstar. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 12, 2016, 08:58:52 PM
Okay, let's do a new round! :thumbsup:

White Koans
THOUSAND

Black Koans
MILLION
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 12, 2016, 09:03:46 PM
THOU
MILON
THION
HUNDRED

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 12, 2016, 09:05:42 PM
White Koans
HUNDRED
THION
THOUSAND

Black Koans
MILLION
MILON
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on June 12, 2016, 09:26:22 PM
HUND
THI
HI
DRED
ED
D

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 12, 2016, 09:27:34 PM
White Koans
D
DRED
ED
HI
HUND
HUNDRED
THI
THION
THOUSAND

Black Koans
MILLION
MILON
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 13, 2016, 02:59:24 AM
LEMMING
POODLE
PINEAPPLE
BREAD
PARTY
OCARINA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Minim on June 13, 2016, 07:57:32 AM
MELD
MEND
MILD
HUNN
BARACK
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 13, 2016, 08:11:55 PM
White Koans
BARACK        LEMMING
BREAD         MEND
D             OCARINA
DRED          PINEAPPLE
ED            POODLE
HI            THI
HUND          THION
HUNDRED       THOUSAND

Black Koans
HUN
HUNN
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
PARTY
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on June 13, 2016, 08:36:15 PM
I made a typo :) I put HUN instead of HUND in the white list, then I looked again and realised it should be black, and forgot to check whether it was the actual koan asked. So you now have that one for free :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on June 13, 2016, 10:23:05 PM
BANANA
CHEESECAKE
LLAMA
GOAT
TELEVISION
ALPACA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 09, 2016, 08:42:24 PM
White Koans
ALPACA        LEMMING
BARACK        MEND
BREAD         OCARINA
CHEESECAKE    PINEAPPLE
D             POODLE
DRED          TELEVISION
ED            THI
HI            THION
HUND          THOUSAND
HUNDRED

Black Koans
BANANA
GOAT
HUN
HUNN
LLAMA
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
PARTY
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on July 09, 2016, 09:02:57 PM
HIT
HTI
THO
LAPACA
CALAPA
HUMP
PUMP

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 09, 2016, 09:07:48 PM
White Koans
ALPACA        HUNDRED
BARACK        LAPACA
BREAD         LEMMING
CALAPA        MEND
CHEESECAKE    OCARINA
D             PINEAPPLE
DRED          POODLE
ED            PUMP
HI            TELEVISION
HIT           THI
HTI           THION
HUMP          THOUSAND
HUND

Black Koans
BANANA
GOAT
HUN
HUNN
LLAMA
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
PARTY
THO
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on July 09, 2016, 10:09:35 PM
MEL
PARDY
I
O
CHEESECOKE
LPC

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 09, 2016, 10:14:23 PM
White Koans
ALPACA        I
BARACK        LAPACA
BREAD         LEMMING
CALAPA        LPC
CHEESECAKE    MEL
CHEESECOKE    MEND
D             OCARINA
DRED          PARDY
ED            PINEAPPLE
HI            POODLE
HIT           PUMP
HTI           TELEVISION
HUMP          THI
HUND          THION
HUNDRED       THOUSAND

Black Koans
BANANA
GOAT
HUN
HUNN
LLAMA
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
O
PARTY
THO
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on July 14, 2016, 05:57:48 AM
ELPECE
ILPICI
OLPOCO
ULPUCU
(test for effects of swapping vowels in a longer koan)

BARRACK
BARRACKS
(test of adding additional letters to existing white koans)

ANIRACO
GNIMMEL
ELPPAENIP
(preliminary test of anagrams)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 14, 2016, 09:24:20 AM
White Koans
ALPACA        HUNDRED
ANIRACO       I
BARACK        LAPACA
BARRACK       LEMMING
BARRACKS      LPC
BREAD         MEL
CALAPA        MEND
CHEESECAKE    OCARINA
CHEESECOKE    OLPOCO
D             PARDY
DRED          PINEAPPLE
ED            POODLE
ELPECE        PUMP
ELPPAENIP     TELEVISION
HI            THI
HIT           THION
HTI           THOUSAND
HUMP          ULPUCU
HUND

Black Koans
BANANA
GNIMMEL
GOAT
HUN
HUNN
ILPICI
LLAMA
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
O
PARTY
THO
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on July 14, 2016, 09:37:56 PM
II
III
OO
OOO
IO
IOO
IOOO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 14, 2016, 09:42:17 PM
White Koans
ALPACA        HI            LPC
ANIRACO       HIT           MEL
BARACK        HTI           MEND
BARRACK       HUMP          OCARINA
BARRACKS      HUND          OLPOCO
BREAD         HUNDRED       PARDY
CALAPA        I             PINEAPPLE
CHEESECAKE    II            POODLE
CHEESECOKE    III           PUMP
D             IO            TELEVISION
DRED          IOO           THI
ED            IOOO          THION
ELPECE        LAPACA        THOUSAND
ELPPAENIP     LEMMING       ULPUCU

Black Koans
BANANA
GNIMMEL
GOAT
HUN
HUNN
ILPICI
LLAMA
MELD
MILD
MILLION
MILON
O
OO
OOO
PARTY
THO
THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on July 16, 2016, 03:38:36 AM
I've decided to start recording my train of thought when picking a koan list, so that way if I forget why I chose a certain set of koans, I can see what I was thinking. Plus, it might help someone else figure something out.

Spoiler
Since LEMMING is white but GNIMMEL (lemming backwards) is black, we know that the order of letters within a koan makes a difference. However, some koans have more than one possible arrangement of letters (ALPACA/CALAPA, OCARINA/ANIRACO).  I will start by testing the remaining untested arrangements of HIT, since it's already been started. This will probably not going to tell me anything useful, but I'm going to try it anyway.

I thought I might have something to test by noticing that D is white and there are no black koans beginning with D, but what I intended to test (can a white koan become black by adding letters to the end?) is already determined through I being white but ILPICI being black. Three arbitrary koans starting with D have been chosen in an attempt to prove that a koan can start with D and be black.

Of interest to me is that some most substitutions in the ALPACA test were white (ALPACA, ELPECE, OLPOCO, ULPUCU, but ILPICI was black. As a result, I am choosing to test for patterns. The next koan on the list to contain only one unique vowel is BARACK, so the next set of vowel substitution tests will be performed on this koan.

Finally, three arbitrary words have been chosen in the hopes that one of them may be useful to perform tests on later.

BERECK
BIRICK
BOROCK
BURUCK

TIH
IHT
ITH

DINNER
DISJOINTED
DOLPHIN

INBOX
NEOLEMMIX
STAPLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on July 16, 2016, 07:13:26 AM
Good stuff, I like your thought processes :)

White Koans
ALPACA        ELPECE        LEMMING
ANIRACO       ELPPAENIP     LPC
BARACK        HI            MEL
BARRACK       HIT           MEND
BARRACKS      HTI           NEOLEMMIX
BERECK        HUMP          OCARINA
BOROCK        HUND          OLPOCO
BURUCK        HUNDRED       PARDY
BREAD         I             PINEAPPLE
CALAPA        IHT           POODLE
CHEESECAKE    II            PUMP
CHEESECOKE    III           STAPLE
D             INBOX         TELEVISION
DINNER        IO            THI
DISJOINTED    IOO           THION
DOLPHIN       IOOO          THOUSAND
DRED          ITH           TIH
ED            LAPACA        ULPUCU

Black Koans
BANANA        MILD
BIRICK        MILLION
GNIMMEL       MILON
GOAT          O
HUN           OO
HUNN          OOO
ILPICI        PARTY
LLAMA         THO
MELD          THOU
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on September 05, 2016, 04:24:30 AM
Variants of STAPLE:

STEPLE
STIPLE
STOPLE
STUPLE

STEPLA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on September 11, 2016, 02:31:58 AM
^ all white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on February 07, 2017, 12:20:30 AM
Simon asked for the answer, so here goes:
Spoiler
A koan has the buddha nature if it contains at least one of {I, V, X, L, C, D, M}, and all substrings containing only those letters are valid Roman numerals. For this rule, a valid Roman numeral is the unique representation of a number from 1 to 3888 using the standard rules, such as LIX = 59. Examples of invalid Roman numerals (thus causing all koans containing them to be black) are IL, IM, LL.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on February 07, 2017, 12:40:51 AM
This sounds very hard. I feel the solution is appropriate. RIP Zendo thread, we had good fun. :lix-grin:

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: grams88 on February 07, 2017, 11:24:05 PM
That was a good one Proxima, probably would of took a long time to get that one.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 01, 2024, 09:38:33 PM
New rule for anyone who fancies playing. Inital examples as follows:

White Koan
MARY

Black Koan
POPPINS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 01, 2024, 11:46:45 PM
MAR
MA
M
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 02, 2024, 01:16:30 AM
White Koans
MARY
MAR
MA
M

Black Koan
POPPINS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 02, 2024, 01:36:07 AM
PAR
POR
POP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 02, 2024, 07:30:58 PM
Ten years it has been!

MOPPINS
POPINS
POINS
POPP
POIN
PO
P

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: The64Watcher on November 02, 2024, 07:42:03 PM
WILLLEM white koan
NAMIDA black koan
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 02, 2024, 09:29:53 PM
GATOR
TOR
GAT
BUS
BAS
BUSY
BASY

Quote from: The64Watcher on November 02, 2024, 07:42:03 PMWILLLEM white koan
NAMIDA black koan
Unless you're the host of a round (which you aren't; it's currently WillLem), you either need to try koans so that the host can tell you if they're black or white, or else you try to guess the rule (by actually saying what you think the rule is). Your goal is to figure out the rules that determine if a koan is black or white, not to figure out specifically which koans are which (and certianly not to just arbitrarily declare them as such).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: The64Watcher on November 02, 2024, 11:03:03 PM
oops, well uhh im not that good at figuring out what cryptic message that was the intructions... sorry
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 03, 2024, 08:51:36 PM
White Koans
MARY - MAR - MA - M - PAR - POR - POINS - POIN - PO - P
GATOR - TOR - GAT - BUS - BAS - BUSY - BASY

Black Koans
POPPINS - POP - MOPPINS - POPINS - POPP - WILLLEM - NAMIDA

Quote from: The64Watcher on November 02, 2024, 11:03:03 PMoops, well uhh im not that good at figuring out what cryptic message that was the intructions... sorry

The idea of this game is to guess the secret rule.

All you need to do is guess some words. A white or black koan is then assigned to each of the words you've guessed. If assigned a white koan, the word fulfils the secret rule. If assigned a black koan, the word does not fulfil the secret rule.

By observing the white koan and black koan words, it should be possible to guess what the secret rule is - both koans are good, because between them they present all the information you need to determine the secret rule.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: The64Watcher on November 03, 2024, 08:55:15 PM
ok, im gonna guess the funniest koan ever




































































SOUP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 03, 2024, 08:58:49 PM
I guess: A koan has the buddha nature iff, for every letter in the alphabet (A-Z), the koan contains either 0 or 1 copies of that letter.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 04, 2024, 12:12:58 AM
Quote from: Simon on November 03, 2024, 08:58:49 PMI guess: A koan has the buddha nature iff, for every letter in the alphabet (A-Z), the koan contains either 0 or 1 copies of that letter.

Correct! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 01:12:41 AM
Thanks! I'll leave first dibs to Proxima, he wasn't around for the offline Zendo session in Leeds.

Should Proxima not want to host, or not post within 48 hours (before Wed, 6th, 01:12 UTC): I have a rule to run next.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 02:01:09 AM
Nah, you should go.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 12:47:33 PM
All right, new round!

White koans:
BANANA

Black koans:
APPLEPIE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 04, 2024, 03:39:28 PM
CHOCOLATE
APPLE
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN
CHERRYPIE
TOMATO
MELON
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 04:28:04 PM
All black.

White koans:
BANANA

Black koans:
APPLE
APPLEPIE
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN
CHERRYPIE
CHOCOLATE
MELON
TOMATO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 04:49:45 PM
Guess: A koan is white if and only if it is the string BANANA.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 04:57:48 PM
Counterexample: BA is white even though it's not the string BANANA.

White koans:
BA
BANANA

Black koans:
APPLE
APPLEPIE
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN
CHERRYPIE
CHOCOLATE
MELON
TOMATO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 05:58:53 PM
Wasn't expecting to be right, but as with the PINEAPPLE round earlier, the possibility was too funny to leave it unguessed.

BAN
BANA
BANANANA
BANANARAMA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 06:27:02 PM
White koans:
BA
BANA
BANANA
BANANANA
BANANARAMA

Black koans:
APPLE
APPLEPIE
BAN
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN
CHERRYPIE
CHOCOLATE
MELON
TOMATO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 06:46:49 PM
MEL
MAN
BEN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 06:56:18 PM
White koans:
BA
BANA
BANANA
BANANANA
BANANARAMA

Black koans:
APPLE            CHOCOLATE
APPLEPIE         MAN
BAN              MEL
BEN              MELON
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN  TOMATO
CHERRYPIE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 04, 2024, 07:10:27 PM

LAME
LLAMA
TARA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 07:11:08 PM
MA
MANA
MAL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 07:17:13 PM
White koans:
BA
BANA
BANANA
BANANANA
BANANARAMA
MA
MANA

Black koans:
APPLE            CHOCOLATE
APPLEPIE         MAL
BAN              MAN
BEN              MEL
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN  MELON
CHERRYPIE        TOMATO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 04, 2024, 07:20:37 PM
You missed my guesses on the previous page.

Anyway, some new ones:

ANANAB
ANANA
NANA
MERE
SOLO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 07:26:21 PM
TOMOTO
TAMATA
BNNNNN
BNNNNA
BANNNN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 07:39:13 PM
Yes, sorry, I missed namida's post. Thus, this listing adds the koans from 3 posts, 2 by namida, 1 by Proxima.

White koans:
ANANAB      MANA
BA          MERE
BANA        NANA
BANANA      SOLO
BANANANA    TAMATA
BANANARAMA  TARA
MA          TOMOTO

Black koans:
APPLE            CHOCOLATE
APPLEPIE         LAME
BAN              LLAMA
BANNNN           MAL
BEN              MAN
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN  MEL
BNNNNA           MELON
BNNNNN           TOMATO
CHERRYPIE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 07:45:19 PM
Guess: a koan is white if it alternates vowels and consonants, has even length, and all the vowels are the same.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 07:51:42 PM
Counterexample: BC is white, but it doesn't alternate vowels with consonants.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 07:54:21 PM
BCN
BCNC
BCNA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 07:56:29 PM
White koans:
ANANAB      MA
BA          MANA
BANA        MERE
BANANA      NANA
BANANANA    SOLO
BANANARAMA  TAMATA
BC          TARA
BCNC        TOMOTO

Black koans:
APPLE            CHERRYPIE
APPLEPIE         CHOCOLATE
BAN              LAME
BANNNN           LLAMA
BCN              MAL
BCNA             MAN
BEN              MEL
BLUEBERRYMUFFIN  MELON
BNNNNA           TOMATO
BNNNNN

I think the bolding (to mark newly added koans) is hardly visible. I'll rewrite the koan formatter to append prepend asterisks * to new koans.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 08:03:39 PM
BNCN
BNCNCN
BCNCNC

Hope no-one minds me guessing so frequently.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 08:12:43 PM
White koans:
  ANANAB      * BNCNCN
  BA            MA
  BANA          MANA
  BANANA        MERE
  BANANANA      NANA
  BANANARAMA    SOLO
  BC            TAMATA
  BCNC          TARA
* BCNCNC        TOMOTO
* BNCN

Black koans:
  APPLE              CHERRYPIE
  APPLEPIE           CHOCOLATE
  BAN                LAME
  BANNNN             LLAMA
  BCN                MAL
  BCNA               MAN
  BEN                MEL
  BLUEBERRYMUFFIN    MELON
  BNNNNA             TOMATO
  BNNNNN

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 08:24:58 PM
ABACAD
BCBDBF
BCBN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 08:39:06 PM
White koans:
* ABACAD      * BCBDBF    MERE
  ANANAB      * BCBN      NANA
  BA            BCNC      SOLO
  BANA          BCNCNC    TAMATA
  BANANA        BNCN      TARA
  BANANANA      BNCNCN    TOMOTO
  BANANARAMA    MA
  BC            MANA

Black koans:
  APPLE              CHERRYPIE
  APPLEPIE           CHOCOLATE
  BAN                LAME
  BANNNN             LLAMA
  BCN                MAL
  BCNA               MAN
  BEN                MEL
  BLUEBERRYMUFFIN    MELON
  BNNNNA             TOMATO
  BNNNNN

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 08:40:26 PM
Guess: A koan is white if and only if some letter appears exactly (length/2) times.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 08:46:56 PM
That is correct, you win! No alternation of letters is necessary.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 09:36:20 PM
I've put zendofmt, my koan formatter, on github (https://github.com/SimonN/zendofmt).

Download it from the Releases page (https://github.com/SimonN/zendofmt/releases/).

Run it from a console without arguments. It looks for the two files koans-w.txt and koans-b.txt in its directory; the files should have one koan per line. When you add new koans, make a blank line in the file, then list new koans below the blank line; these koans will get asterisks in zendofmt's output.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 09:57:59 PM
This was a very interesting round. Run on a random sample of koans, that rule would produce a huge majority of black, but we actually had a slight majority of white because we found partial patterns and kept experimenting with them to try to find koans that broke the apparent pattern. And indeed, the thread that revealed everything was BNNNNN being black, which made me realise that total number was relevant and not alternating patterns.

New rule:

White koans:
LEMMING

Black koans:
LIME
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 10:14:09 PM
Thanks! Yes, I hoped that the pattern would eventually appear, and it did quickly indeed. You found long white koans even before you found that all 2-letter koans (except AA, BB, ...) were white. The emergency fallback was that APPLEP, a prefix of the black starter, would have been white.

LEMING
LIMENG
LIMEN

LEMMINGE
LEMMINGS
LEMI
L

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 10:19:19 PM
White koans:
LEMMING
LEMMINGE
LEMMINGS

Black koans:
L
LEMI
LEMING
LIME
LIMEN
LIMENG
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 10:24:52 PM
A koan is white iff it contains the substring LEMMING.
A koan is white iff it starts with the substring LEMMING.

EE
MM
EMMING
MMING
MMEMM

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 10:26:49 PM
White koans:
EMMING <-- disproves both rule guesses
LEMMING
LEMMINGE
LEMMINGS
MMING
MMEMM

Black koans:
EE
L
LEMI
LEMING
LIME
LIMEN
LIMENG
MM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 04, 2024, 10:39:48 PM
LMMNG
EI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 11:04:33 PM
White koans:
EMMING
LEMMING
LEMMINGE
LEMMINGS
LMMNG
MMING
MMEMM

Black koans:
EE
EI
L
LEMI
LEMING
LIME
LIMEN
LIMENG
MM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 04, 2024, 11:23:08 PM
MMIN
MINM
MMI
MIM
MMM
MLEINGM
MIMIMIM
EEING

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 04, 2024, 11:35:10 PM
White koans:
EMMING
LEMMING
LEMMINGE
LEMMINGS
LMMNG
MIMIMIM
MLEINGM
MMING
MMEMM

Black koans:
EE
EEING
EI
L
LEMI
LEMING
LIME
LIMEN
LIMENG
MIM
MINM
MM
MMI
MMIN
MMM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 05, 2024, 07:06:34 AM
A koan is white iff it has 5 or more letters, and at least 2 of them (anywhere) are M.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 07:46:34 AM
Counterexample: MMMI is white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 05, 2024, 03:34:12 PM
CUDDLE
MAGIC
FISH
PARALLELOGRAM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 05:07:08 PM
^ all white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 05, 2024, 05:30:12 PM
For a word to be assigned a white koan, it must contain at least 4 total letters, and then either >1 "M" or at least 1 vowel.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 05, 2024, 06:14:05 PM
The white FISH is odd, hmm.

MMMO
EEE
EEEI
LLL
LLLI
LLLLLL
LLLLLLL

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 06:48:01 PM
I assure you it's not a red herring  :P

White koans:
CUDDLE    MLEINGM
EMMING    MMING
FISH      MMEMM
LEMMING   MMMI
LEMMINGE  MMMO
LEMMINGS  PARALLELOGRAM
LMMNG
MAGIC
MIMIMIM

Black koans:
EE        LIMENG    MMM
EEE       LLL
EEEI      LLLI
EEING     LLLLLL
EI        LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM
LEMING    MM
LIME      MMI
LIMEN     MMIN

Note that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 05, 2024, 08:13:17 PM
FISHING
FSH
FISHLEMMING
LEMMINGFISH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 08:27:20 PM
White koans:
CUDDLE        LMMNG
EMMING        MAGIC
FISH          MIMIMIM
FISHING       MLEINGM
FISHLEMMING   MMEMM
LEMMING       MMING
LEMMINGE      MMMI
LEMMINGFISH   MMMO
LEMMINGS      PARALLELOGRAM

Black koans:
EE        LIMEN     MMIN
EEE       LIMEING    MMM
EEEI      LLL
EEING     LLLI
EI        LLLLLL
FSH       LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM
LEMING    MM
LIME      MMI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 05, 2024, 08:35:41 PM
EISH
GISH
HISH
FMSH
FLSH

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 08:40:49 PM
White koans:
CUDDLE        LEMMINGE      MMING
EMMING        LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMO
FISHING       LIMEING       PARALLELOGRAM
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG
FLSH          MAGIC
FMSH          MIMIMIM
HISH          MLEINGM
LEMMING       MMEMM

Black koans:
EE        LEMING     MM
EEE       LIME       MMI
EEEI      LIMEN      MMIN
EEING     LIMENG     MMM
EI        LLL
EISH      LLLI
FSH       LLLLLL
GISH      LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 08:48:41 PM
Apologies, there was a typo in the previous list. LIMENG was the koan asked and this was (correctly) marked black, but I typoed it as LIMEING, which would be white. I've fixed this by adding both to the lists.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 05, 2024, 09:58:51 PM
LEM
EMM
MIN
ING

(EDIT: Removed "MMI" as I noticed that one is already on the list.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 05, 2024, 10:43:38 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 06:48:01 PMI assure you it's not a red herring  :P

Haha :crylaugh:

Quote from: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 06:48:01 PMNote that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.

Not so much. The guess is 4 letters or more, then either at least 2 Ms or at least 1 vowel.

Can rules have either/or statements?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 05, 2024, 10:49:17 PM
Quote from: WillLem on November 05, 2024, 10:43:38 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 06:48:01 PMI assure you it's not a red herring  :P

Haha :crylaugh:

Quote from: Proxima on November 05, 2024, 06:48:01 PMNote that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.

Not so much. The guess is 4 letters or more, then either at least 2 Ms or at least 1 vowel.

Can rules have either/or statements?

Rules can have either/or statements, they can be as complex as the host wants (although simple but creative rules tend to be the best ones). They just can't depend on external factors like "who posted them" etc, unless that external factor could be explained without referring to external factors - for example, you could have "must contain the spelling of a single-digit integer" because although "the spelling of single digit integers" is external knowledge, you could redefine this rule as simply "must contain one of the following exact substrings: ONE, TWO, ...".

However, EEEI does indeed disprove your guess, because EEEI is four letters or more, and does contain either two Ms or at least one vowel (specifically, the latter). By your guess, this koan would be white; but it is actually black.

Keep in mind that disproving a guess simply requires the host to present a koan that your guess vs their official rule, would judge differently. It does not matter whether the actual rule or your guess is the one that marks it as white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 05, 2024, 11:26:10 PM
Quote from: namida on November 05, 2024, 10:49:17 PMRules can have either/or statements

Thanks for clarifying, and for the additional info regarding rules.

Quote from: namida on November 05, 2024, 10:49:17 PMHowever, EEEI does indeed disprove your guess, because ... By your guess, this koan would be white; but it is actually black.

Ah, whoops. I didn't notice that it was in the list of black koans! :forehead:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 06, 2024, 12:40:34 AM
namida's new guesses are all black:

White koans:
CUDDLE        LEMMINGE      MMING
EMMING        LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMO
FISHING       LIMEING       PARALLELOGRAM
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG
FLSH          MAGIC
FMSH          MIMIMIM
HISH          MLEINGM
LEMMING       MMEMM

Black koans:
EE        L          LLLLLLL
EEE       LEM        MIM
EEEI      LEMI       MIN
EEING     LEMING     MINM
EI        LIME       MM
EISH      LIMEN      MMI
EMM       LIMENG     MMIN
FSH       LLL        MMM
GISH      LLLI
ING       LLLLLL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 06, 2024, 10:30:10 PM
Wondering if I made this too hard and people would like a hint or two.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 07, 2024, 11:51:36 AM
Quote from: Proxima on November 06, 2024, 10:30:10 PMWondering if I made this too hard and people would like a hint or two.

Yeah, a hint would be good. I'm always happy to work with hints though, others might want to wait a bit longer.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 12:09:29 PM
I have found some patterns and would prefer to continue without hints yet. I still have yet-unresearched ideas.

MMMM
EEEE
FFFF
FFFI
GGGG
GGGI

Expectation: I expect the 4 M's to be white, the 4 F's to be white, the 4 E's to be black, and the 4 G's to be black.

If this expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words with all-identical characters. I'll then call a letter heavy iff its 4-letter all-identical-letters word is white. Then I'll guess: AKHTBN iff it is at least 4 letters long, and it contains at least 2 heavy letters.


If the expectation turns out false:

New expectation: I expect FFFI to be white, GGGI to be black.

If this new expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words of the form xxxI where the 3 x are all-identical characters, and the letter I is fixed at the end. (I.e., I'd like to test AAAI, BBBI, ..., ZZZI.) I'll then call a letter x heavy iff xxxI is white. Then I'll guess: AKHTBN iff it is at least 4 letters long, and it contains at least 2 heavy letters.

I'll see if I want hints after all this; I expect to find more patterns from this first.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 07, 2024, 12:47:51 PM
So, according to the second of Simon's guesses (i.e. if the first guess turns out to be false), E and L would be non-heavy letters? (Because EEEI and LLLI have already been assigned black koans).

Just wanting to make sure I understand.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 03:33:54 PM
Right, E and L will be non-heavy. I wrote "test all 26 ..." so it's clearer what I want, even though I know some of the results already (EEEI is black).

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 07, 2024, 05:02:54 PM
This is some great Zendo-science, although 51 koans is a lot to add at once. Let's see how to do this....

Here's the current list plus the first six guesses:

White koans:
CUDDLE        HISH          MLEINGM
EMMING        LEMMING       MMEMM
FFFF          LEMMINGE      MMING
FFFI          LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMM
FISHING       LIMEING       MMMO
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG         PARALLELOGRAM
FLSH          MAGIC
FMSH          MIMIMIM

Black koans:
EE        GISH       LLLLLL
EEE       ING        LLLLLLL
EEEE      L          MIM
EEEI      LEM        MIN
EEING     LEMI       MINM
EI        LEMING     MM
EISH      LIME       MMI
EMM       LIMEN      MMIN
FSH       LIMENG     MMN
GGGG      LLL
GGGI      LLLI

Quote from: Simon on November 07, 2024, 12:09:29 PMExpectation: I expect the 4 M's to be white, the 4 F's to be white, the 4 E's to be black, and the 4 G's to be black.
All correct!

QuoteIf this expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words with all-identical characters.
Okay, I won't add these to the main list (unless you prefer me to), but:

xxxx white: B C F H J K M P Q V W X Y Z

xxxx black: A D E G I L N O R S T U

QuoteI expect FFFI to be white, GGGI to be black.
Also correct!

QuoteIf this new expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words of the form xxxI where the 3 x are all-identical characters, and the letter I is fixed at the end. (I.e., I'd like to test AAAI, BBBI, ..., ZZZI.) I'll then call a letter x heavy iff xxxI is white.
Very well!

It turns out that xxxI is white if and only if xxxx is white, i.e. the set of "heavy" letters is exactly the same as above.

But your rule guess is incorrect: LIX is white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 05:54:11 PM
Your listing of xxxx white/black is ideal as it is. No need to expand and insert these 26 into the list of individual guesses.

Right, 51 would be a lot to add into the list. I expected at most one of the two batches (of 26 koans each) to get tested: If the xxxx batch got tested (because I was I right on 4 predictions), I wanted to fire the one guess, and then ignore the xxxI batch and its guess. Nonetheless, thanks for confirming that, for each x, the koan xxxI is marked the same as xxxx.

Now:

LLLLLLLL
X
XX
XM
XMM

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 07, 2024, 06:01:14 PM
White koans:
CUDDLE        HISH          MLEINGM          XX
EMMING        LEMMING       MMEMM
FFFF          LEMMINGE      MMING
FFFI          LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMM
FISHING       LIMEING       MMMO
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG         PARALLELOGRAM
FLSH          MAGIC         XM
FMSH          MIMIMIM       XMM

Black koans:
EE        GISH       LLLLLL
EEE       ING        LLLLLLL
EEEE      L          LLLLLLLL
EEEI      LEM        MIM
EEING     LEMI       MIN
EI        LEMING     MINM
EISH      LIME       MM
EMM       LIMEN      MMI
FSH       LIMENG     MMIN
GGGG      LLL        MMN
GGGI      LLLI       X
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 07:43:52 PM
EXE
YY
ZZ
LLLLLLLM
LIX (known white counterexample that you can still add to the listing)

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 07, 2024, 07:52:13 PM
White koans:
CUDDLE        FMSH          LMMNG        PARALLELOGRAM
EMMING        HISH          MAGIC        XM
EXE           LEMMING       MIMIMIM      XMM
FFFF          LEMMINGE      MLEINGM      XX
FFFI          LEMMINGFISH   MMEMM        ZZ
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMING
FISHING       LIMEING       MMMI
FISHLEMMING   LIX           MMMM
FLSH          LLLLLLLM      MMMO

Black koans:
EE        GISH       LLLLLL      YY
EEE       ING        LLLLLLL
EEEE      L          LLLLLLLL
EEEI      LEM        MIM
EEING     LEMI       MIN
EI        LEMING     MINM
EISH      LIME       MM
EMM       LIMEN      MMI
FSH       LIMENG     MMIN
GGGG      LLL        MMN
GGGI      LLLI       X
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 08:12:27 PM
AKHTBN iff it worth 10 or more points when we play it in English Scrabble (disregarding legality according to the dictionary).

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 07, 2024, 08:33:35 PM
Exactly right, well done  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 07, 2024, 08:34:10 PM
Excellent round, thanks!

Adding more letters to a white koan keeps it white, anagramming preserves the status even when we rip apart double letters, some letters (F, H, M) reach the threshold earlier than others.

L would ostensibly never reach threshold, therefore I assumed it was worth 0, but it ended up being worth something. I would have eventually tested 20 L or 100 L. I should have known earlier; after all, MMMI was white.

I looked at the prime factorizations of the IDs of the heavy letters (B = 2 prime, C = 3 prime, D = 4 black, ...), but this was a dead end when M with ID 13 was heavy, but the super-heavy X had the highly-composite ID of 24.

Then X and Z were worth a lot and Scrabble came to mind, and when the investigation came up with the nice round threshold of 10 points (MMM costs 9, MMMI costs 10, both are known), it had to be correct. Thanks!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 07, 2024, 10:05:12 PM
Glad to know I hit around the sweet spot with difficulty. I wanted to play a harder but still solvable round after my last round from the old game (the Roman numerals one) ended in failure. The Scrabble idea was inspired by a game I'm involved with on another forum where one person thinks of a fictional character and others try to reveal the character's identity by asking questions. If a round drags on long enough, people often start to narrow it down by asking "does their name begin with a letter from A to M?" and so on; and then just for variety, in one round someone asked "Does their name start with a letter worth 1 point in Scrabble?" and that stuck in my memory :)

I gave a little bit of a nudge in the right direction by revealing that LIX was white, which was strictly speaking unnecessary, as I could have pointed to CUDDLE or MMIN as counterexamples.

Anyhow, your round!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 10, 2024, 07:22:28 PM
Thanks. I don't have a good rule. I'll pass the next round to namida or WillLem, or call open floor if neither wants.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 10, 2024, 11:13:43 PM
Alright, sure, let's do this. (I'll check out the formatting tool later, just manual for now.)

White
POTATO

Black
CARROT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 10, 2024, 11:28:52 PM
CAR
POT
ROT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 10, 2024, 11:39:29 PM
TOMATO
BROCCOLI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:03:05 AM
I wrote my own code to do it (that also checks the rule for me too, although I'm double-checking it by hand too).

White Koans
  POTATO       

Black Koans
* BROCCOLI      * POT           
* CAR           * ROT           
  CARROT        * TOMATO       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:03:46 AM
AKHTBN iff it is not ok to eat raw.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:05:48 AM
AKHTBN iff it is not ok to eat raw, but would be ok to eat cooked.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:08:09 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:03:46 AMAKHTBN iff it is not ok to eat raw.

Aside from that this probably relies too much on outside knowledge to really define as a proper Zendo rule.

Putting this aside, your counterexample is CHICKEN, which would be white by your guess, but is black.

White Koans
  POTATO       

Black Koans
  BROCCOLI        POT           
  CAR             ROT           
  CARROT          TOMATO       
* CHICKEN       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:23:31 AM
RAPTOR
ROTOR
MOTOR
ROTATE
CART
OR
TOR
P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:25:16 AM
White Koans
* MOTOR           POTATO       

Black Koans
  BROCCOLI        POT           
  CAR           * RAPTOR       
  CARROT          ROT           
* CART          * ROTATE       
  CHICKEN       * ROTOR         
* OR              TOMATO       
* P             * TOR           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:36:19 AM
AKHTBN iff, removing the first character, the word can be turned into an anagram by removing one character, and the word is not originally an anagram.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 12:36:40 AM
NOTOR
OOTOR
POTOR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:40:37 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:36:19 AMAKHTBN iff, removing the first character, the word can be turned into an anagram by removing one character, and the word is not originally an anagram.

A word can't be an anagram on its own; it must be an anagram of some specific other word (or sequence of characters). I think you might be confusing the term "anagram" with something else. As currently worded, this rule doesn't mean anything and can't be meaningfully judged. (It crosses my mind that maybe you meant palindrome, but all three-letter koans as well as ROTOR and POTATO are already counterexamples to that.)

White Koans
  MOTOR           POTATO       
* NOTOR         * POTOR         

Black Koans
  BROCCOLI        POT           
  CAR             RAPTOR       
  CARROT          ROT           
  CART            ROTATE       
  CHICKEN         ROTOR         
* OOTOR           TOMATO       
  OR              TOR           
  P             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:41:50 AM
AKHTBN iff, removing the first character, the koan can be turned into a palindrome by removing one character, the koan, with no chatacters removed, is not originally a palindrome, and the koan is more than one character long.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:43:15 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:41:50 AMAKHTBN iff, removing the first character, the koan can be turned into a palindrome by removing one character, the koan, with no chatacters removed, is not originally a palindrome, and the koan is more than one character long.

As mentioned in my edit to the previous post, there are already multiple counterexamples that disprove this guess.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 12:44:49 AM
CARAT
TOROT
TOTOR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:47:53 AM
White Koans
* CARAT           POTATO       
  MOTOR           POTOR         
  NOTOR         

Black Koans
  BROCCOLI        RAPTOR       
  CAR             ROT           
  CARROT          ROTATE       
  CART            ROTOR         
  CHICKEN         TOMATO       
  OOTOR           TOR           
  OR            * TOROT         
  P             * TOTOR         
  POT           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 12:50:58 AM
Guess: A koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains exactly four distinct letters and its first letter is not repeated.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:55:05 AM
Quote from: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 12:50:58 AMGuess: A koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains exactly four distinct letters and its first letter is not repeated.

Counterexample: ASSASSINATION (HTBN but has more than four distinct letters *and* the first letter is repeated)

White Koans
* ASSASSINATION        NOTOR             
  CARAT                POTATO             
  MOTOR                POTOR             

Black Koans
  BROCCOLI             RAPTOR             
  CAR                  ROT               
  CARROT               ROTATE             
  CART                 ROTOR             
  CHICKEN              TOMATO             
  OOTOR                TOR               
  OR                   TOROT             
  P                    TOTOR             
  POT               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:55:52 AM
Quote from: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:43:15 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:41:50 AMAKHTBN iff, removing the first character, the koan can be turned into a palindrome by removing one character, the koan, with no chatacters removed, is not originally a palindrome, and the koan is more than one character long.

As mentioned in my edit to the previous post, there are already multiple counterexamples that disprove this guess.

**
AKHTBN iff (you remove the first character from the koan. Then, you can remove any one character to turn the koan into a palindrome) AND (the original koan is not already a palindrome) AND (in this rule, a palindrome does not count if it is not at least two characters long)

Quote from: namida on November 11, 2024, 12:40:37 AMIt crosses my mind that maybe you meant palindrome, but all three-letter koans as well as ROTOR and POTATO are already counterexamples to that.

"POTATO," with the first character removed is "OTATO." The third character, "A," can be removed from this to make it a palindrome.

"ROTOR" is already a palindrome.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 01:07:56 AM
NATION
OATOR
PATOR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 01:15:05 AM
PORTABLE
TEUR
TORBROWSER
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 11, 2024, 02:32:42 AM
ALIEN
BOOBS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 03:09:17 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 12:55:52 AMAKHTBN iff (you remove the first character from the koan. Then, you can remove any one character to turn the koan into a palindrome) AND (the original koan is not already a palindrome) AND (in this rule, a palindrome does not count if it is not at least two characters long)

Counter-example: STATISTIC is white. You can't make a palindrome by removing one letter from "TATISTIC".

White Koans
  ASSASSINATION        NOTOR              * STATISTIC         
  CARAT                POTATO             * TORBROWSER         
  MOTOR                POTOR             

Black Koans
* ALIEN              * OATOR                ROT               
* BOOBS                OOTOR                ROTATE             
  BROCCOLI             OR                   ROTOR             
  CAR                  P                  * TEUR               
  CARROT             * PATOR                TOMATO             
  CART               * PORTABLE             TOR               
  CHICKEN              POT                  TOROT             
* NATION               RAPTOR               TOTOR             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 03:29:38 AM
OTATO
STATS
TAT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 11, 2024, 03:35:39 AM
KITTEN
KITTENS
MITTEN
MITTENS
KOALA
COLA
PEPSI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 03:38:11 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSINATION        NOTOR                STATISTIC         
  CARAT                POTATO               TORBROWSER         
  MOTOR                POTOR             

Black Koans
  ALIEN              * MITTENS              ROT               
  BOOBS                NATION               ROTATE             
  BROCCOLI             OATOR                ROTOR             
  CAR                  OOTOR              * STATS             
  CARROT               OR                 * TAT               
  CART               * OTATO                TEUR               
  CHICKEN              P                    TOMATO             
* COLA                 PATOR                TOR               
* KITTEN             * PEPSI                TOROT             
* KITTENS              PORTABLE             TOTOR             
* KOALA                POT                                     
* MITTEN             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 03:41:14 AM
EDIBLE
LEMMING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 03:47:41 AM
KARAT
KOTOR
KSSKSSINKTION
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 03:51:52 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSINATION      * KSSKSSINKTION        POTOR             
  CARAT                MOTOR                STATISTIC         
* KARAT                NOTOR                TORBROWSER         
* KOTOR                POTATO             

Black Koans
  ALIEN              * LEMMING              POT               
  BOOBS                MITTEN               RAPTOR             
  BROCCOLI             MITTENS              ROT               
  CAR                  NATION               ROTATE             
  CARROT               OATOR                ROTOR             
  CART                 OOTOR                STATS             
  CHICKEN              OR                   TAT               
  COLA                 OTATO                TEUR               
* EDIBLE               P                    TOMATO             
  KITTEN               PATOR                TOR               
  KITTENS              PEPSI                TOROT             
  KOALA                PORTABLE             TOTOR             
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 11, 2024, 03:53:49 AM
A
AA
AAA
AAAA
AAAAA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 03:58:06 AM
ASSIGNABLE
ASSIGNABLELEMMING
ASSIGNABLELIX
APOTATOA
POTATOP
OPOTATO
BPOTATOB
EPOTATOE
XPOTATOX
EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING
ATORBROWSERA
BTORBROWSERB
TORBROWSERT
RTORBROWSER
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 03:59:21 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSINATION                  KSSKSSINKTION                  POTOR                       
  CARAT                          MOTOR                          STATISTIC                   
  KARAT                          NOTOR                          TORBROWSER                   
  KOTOR                          POTATO                       

Black Koans
* A                              COLA                           PORTABLE                     
* AA                             EDIBLE                         POT                         
* AAA                          * EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING      * POTATOP                     
* AAAA                         * EPOTATOE                       RAPTOR                       
* AAAAA                          KITTEN                         ROT                         
  ALIEN                          KITTENS                        ROTATE                       
* APOTATOA                       KOALA                          ROTOR                       
* ASSIGNABLE                     LEMMING                      * RTORBROWSER                 
* ASSIGNABLELEMMING              MITTEN                         STATS                       
* ASSIGNABLELIX                  MITTENS                        TAT                         
* ATORBROWSERA                   NATION                         TEUR                         
  BOOBS                          OATOR                          TOMATO                       
* BPOTATOB                       OOTOR                          TOR                         
  BROCCOLI                     * OPOTATO                      * TORBROWSERT                 
* BTORBROWSERB                   OR                             TOROT                       
  CAR                            OTATO                          TOTOR                       
  CARROT                         P                            * XPOTATOX                     
  CART                           PATOR                                                       
  CHICKEN                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 11, 2024, 04:02:41 AM
ORBROWSERT
TATISTICS
RPOTO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 04:10:13 AM
NAMIDA
XNAMIDAX
ANAMID
AMIDAN
MIDANA
IDANAN
DANAMI
DANAMID
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 04:17:29 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSINATION                  KSSKSSINKTION                  POTATO                       
  CARAT                          MOTOR                          POTOR                       
* DANAMI                       * NAMIDA                         STATISTIC                   
  KARAT                          NOTOR                          TORBROWSER                   
  KOTOR                        * ORBROWSERT                   

Black Koans
  A                              COLA                           PEPSI                       
  AA                           * DANAMID                        PORTABLE                     
  AAA                            EDIBLE                         POT                         
  AAAA                           EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING        POTATOP                     
  AAAAA                          EPOTATOE                       RAPTOR                       
  ALIEN                        * IDANAN                         ROT                         
* AMIDAN                         KITTEN                         ROTATE                       
* ANAMID                         KITTENS                        ROTOR                       
  APOTATOA                       KOALA                        * RPOTO                       
  ASSIGNABLE                     LEMMING                        RTORBROWSER                 
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING            * MIDANA                         STATS                       
  ASSIGNABLELIX                  MITTEN                         TAT                         
  ATORBROWSERA                   MITTENS                      * TATISTICS                   
  BOOBS                          NATION                         TEUR                         
  BPOTATOB                       OATOR                          TOMATO                       
  BROCCOLI                       OOTOR                          TOR                         
  BTORBROWSERB                   OPOTATO                        TORBROWSERT                 
  CAR                            OR                             TOROT                       
  CARROT                         OTATO                          TOTOR                       
  CART                           P                            * XNAMIDAX                     
  CHICKEN                        PATOR                          XPOTATOX                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 04:29:40 AM
ASSASSIN
ASSASSINATIONBAR
ASSASSINATIONBRA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 04:30:34 AM
ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 04:33:09 AM
PROXIMA
WILLLEM
SIMON
ICHOTOLOT
GEOO
KAYWHYN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 04:33:40 AM
RACECARRACECARRACECARA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 11, 2024, 04:34:33 AM
ARACECARARACECARARACECAR
ARACECARRACECARRACECAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 04:43:07 AM
White Koans
* ASSASSIN                        KSSKSSINKTION                   POTOR                         
  ASSASSINATION                   MOTOR                         * RACECARRACECARRACECARA       
  CARAT                           NAMIDA                          STATISTIC                     
  DANAMI                          NOTOR                           TORBROWSER                   
  KARAT                           ORBROWSERT                    * ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX       
  KOTOR                           POTATO                       

Black Koans
  A                               COLA                            PORTABLE                     
  AA                              DANAMID                         POT                           
  AAA                             EDIBLE                          POTATOP                       
  AAAA                            EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING       * PROXIMA                       
  AAAAA                           EPOTATOE                        RAPTOR                       
  ALIEN                         * GEOO                            ROT                           
  AMIDAN                        * ICHOTOLOT                       ROTATE                       
  ANAMID                          IDANAN                          ROTOR                         
  APOTATOA                      * KAYWHYN                         RPOTO                         
* ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KITTEN                          RTORBROWSER                   
* ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          KITTENS                       * SIMON                         
* ASSASSINATIONBAR                KOALA                           STATS                         
* ASSASSINATIONBRA                LEMMING                         TAT                           
  ASSIGNABLE                      MIDANA                          TATISTICS                     
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               MITTEN                          TEUR                         
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   MITTENS                         TOMATO                       
  ATORBROWSERA                    NATION                          TOR                           
  BOOBS                           OATOR                           TORBROWSERT                   
  BPOTATOB                        OOTOR                           TOROT                         
  BROCCOLI                        OPOTATO                         TOTOR                         
  BTORBROWSERB                    OR                            * WILLLEM                       
  CAR                             OTATO                           XNAMIDAX                     
  CARROT                          P                               XPOTATOX                     
  CART                            PATOR                                                         
  CHICKEN                       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 04:53:15 AM
BTTBTTJOBUJPO
PATAR
POTAR
POTARO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 05:04:12 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSIN                        KSSKSSINKTION                   POTATO                       
  ASSASSINATION                   MOTOR                           POTOR                         
* BTTBTTJOBUJPO                   NAMIDA                          RACECARRACECARRACECARA       
  CARAT                           NOTOR                           STATISTIC                     
  DANAMI                          ORBROWSERT                      TORBROWSER                   
  KARAT                         * PATAR                           ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX       
  KOTOR                         * POTARO                       

Black Koans
  A                               COLA                            PORTABLE                     
  AA                              DANAMID                         POT                           
  AAA                             EDIBLE                        * POTAR                         
  AAAA                            EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING         POTATOP                       
  AAAAA                           EPOTATOE                        PROXIMA                       
  ALIEN                           GEOO                            RAPTOR                       
  AMIDAN                          ICHOTOLOT                       ROT                           
  ANAMID                          IDANAN                          ROTATE                       
  APOTATOA                        KAYWHYN                         ROTOR                         
  ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KITTEN                          RPOTO                         
  ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          KITTENS                         RTORBROWSER                   
  ASSASSINATIONBAR                KOALA                           SIMON                         
  ASSASSINATIONBRA                LEMMING                         STATS                         
  ASSIGNABLE                      MIDANA                          TAT                           
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               MITTEN                          TATISTICS                     
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   MITTENS                         TEUR                         
  ATORBROWSERA                    NATION                          TOMATO                       
  BOOBS                           OATOR                           TOR                           
  BPOTATOB                        OOTOR                           TORBROWSERT                   
  BROCCOLI                        OPOTATO                         TOROT                         
  BTORBROWSERB                    OR                              TOTOR                         
  CAR                             OTATO                           WILLLEM                       
  CARROT                          P                               XNAMIDAX                     
  CART                            PATOR                           XPOTATOX                     
  CHICKEN                         PEPSI                         
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 05:13:01 AM
POTAPA
POTAPO
POTATA
TATA
TATO
TAXA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 05:15:27 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSIN                        KSSKSSINKTION                   POTATO                       
  ASSASSINATION                   MOTOR                           POTOR                         
  BTTBTTJOBUJPO                   NAMIDA                          RACECARRACECARRACECARA       
  CARAT                           NOTOR                           STATISTIC                     
  DANAMI                          ORBROWSERT                    * TAXA                         
  KARAT                           PATAR                           TORBROWSER                   
  KOTOR                           POTARO                          ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX       

Black Koans
  A                               EDIBLE                          POTAR                         
  AA                              EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING       * POTATA                       
  AAA                             EPOTATOE                        POTATOP                       
  AAAA                            GEOO                            PROXIMA                       
  AAAAA                           ICHOTOLOT                       RAPTOR                       
  ALIEN                           IDANAN                          ROT                           
  AMIDAN                          KAYWHYN                         ROTATE                       
  ANAMID                          KITTEN                          ROTOR                         
  APOTATOA                        KITTENS                         RPOTO                         
  ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KOALA                           RTORBROWSER                   
  ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          LEMMING                         SIMON                         
  ASSASSINATIONBAR                MIDANA                          STATS                         
  ASSASSINATIONBRA                MITTEN                          TAT                           
  ASSIGNABLE                      MITTENS                       * TATA                         
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               NATION                          TATISTICS                     
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   OATOR                         * TATO                         
  ATORBROWSERA                    OOTOR                           TEUR                         
  BOOBS                           OPOTATO                         TOMATO                       
  BPOTATOB                        OR                              TOR                           
  BROCCOLI                        OTATO                           TORBROWSERT                   
  BTORBROWSERB                    P                               TOROT                         
  CAR                             PATOR                           TOTOR                         
  CARROT                          PEPSI                           WILLLEM                       
  CART                            PORTABLE                        XNAMIDAX                     
  CHICKEN                         POT                             XPOTATOX                     
  COLA                          * POTAPA                                                       
  DANAMID                       
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 11, 2024, 05:19:15 AM
ASSA
ATLA
ATTA
ATTO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 07:13:17 AM
White Koans
  ASSASSIN                        KSSKSSINKTION                   POTOR                         
  ASSASSINATION                   MOTOR                           RACECARRACECARRACECARA       
* ATTO                            NAMIDA                          STATISTIC                     
  BTTBTTJOBUJPO                   NOTOR                           TAXA                         
  CARAT                           ORBROWSERT                      TORBROWSER                   
  DANAMI                          PATAR                           ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX       
  KARAT                           POTARO                                                       
  KOTOR                           POTATO                                                       

Black Koans
  A                               CHICKEN                         POT                           
  AA                              COLA                            POTAPA                       
  AAA                             DANAMID                         POTAR                         
  AAAA                            EDIBLE                          POTATA                       
  AAAAA                           EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING         POTATOP                       
  ALIEN                           EPOTATOE                        PROXIMA                       
  AMIDAN                          GEOO                            RAPTOR                       
  ANAMID                          ICHOTOLOT                       ROT                           
  APOTATOA                        IDANAN                          ROTATE                       
  ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KAYWHYN                         ROTOR                         
  ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          KITTEN                          RPOTO                         
* ASSA                            KITTENS                         RTORBROWSER                   
  ASSASSINATIONBAR                KOALA                           SIMON                         
  ASSASSINATIONBRA                LEMMING                         STATS                         
  ASSIGNABLE                      MIDANA                          TAT                           
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               MITTEN                          TATA                         
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   MITTENS                         TATISTICS                     
* ATLA                            NATION                          TATO                         
  ATORBROWSERA                    OATOR                           TEUR                         
* ATTA                            OOTOR                           TOMATO                       
  BOOBS                           OPOTATO                         TOR                           
  BPOTATOB                        OR                              TORBROWSERT                   
  BROCCOLI                        OTATO                           TOROT                         
  BTORBROWSERB                    P                               TOTOR                         
  CAR                             PATOR                           WILLLEM                       
  CARROT                          PEPSI                           XNAMIDAX                     
  CART                            PORTABLE                        XPOTATOX                     
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 11, 2024, 02:47:41 PM
ZZZZ
ZAZZ
ZAAZ
BBBB
ZBZZ
ZBBZ
BABB
BAAB
SSSS
SASS
SAAS
ASSO
ATLO

As well as the above, every letter of the alphabet in the following format (sorry!):

.
..
...
....
.....

By all means, express these as some statement rather than placing every single one into the list of koans.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 07:10:03 PM
White Koans
  ASSASSIN                        KOTOR                           POTATO                       
  ASSASSINATION                   KSSKSSINKTION                   POTOR                         
* ASSO                            MOTOR                           RACECARRACECARRACECARA       
  ATTO                            NAMIDA                          STATISTIC                     
  BTTBTTJOBUJPO                   NOTOR                           TAXA                         
  CARAT                           ORBROWSERT                      TORBROWSER                   
  DANAMI                          PATAR                           ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX       
  KARAT                           POTARO                                                       

Black Koans
  A                               CHICKEN                         POTATOP                       
  AA                              COLA                            PROXIMA                       
  AAA                             DANAMID                         RAPTOR                       
  AAAA                            EDIBLE                          ROT                           
  AAAAA                           EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING         ROTATE                       
  ALIEN                           EPOTATOE                        ROTOR                         
  AMIDAN                          GEOO                            RPOTO                         
  ANAMID                          ICHOTOLOT                       RTORBROWSER                   
  APOTATOA                        IDANAN                        * SAAS                         
  ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KAYWHYN                       * SASS                         
  ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          KITTEN                          SIMON                         
  ASSA                            KITTENS                       * SSSS                         
  ASSASSINATIONBAR                KOALA                           STATS                         
  ASSASSINATIONBRA                LEMMING                         TAT                           
  ASSIGNABLE                      MIDANA                          TATA                         
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               MITTEN                          TATISTICS                     
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   MITTENS                         TATO                         
  ATLA                            NATION                          TEUR                         
* ATLO                            OATOR                           TOMATO                       
  ATORBROWSERA                    OOTOR                           TOR                           
  ATTA                            OPOTATO                         TORBROWSERT                   
* BAAB                            OR                              TOROT                         
* BABB                            OTATO                           TOTOR                         
* BBBB                            P                               WILLLEM                       
  BOOBS                           PATOR                           XNAMIDAX                     
  BPOTATOB                        PEPSI                           XPOTATOX                     
  BROCCOLI                        PORTABLE                      * ZAAZ                         
  BTORBROWSERB                    POT                           * ZAZZ                         
  CAR                             POTAPA                        * ZBBZ                         
  CARROT                          POTAR                         * ZBZZ                         
  CART                            POTATA                        * ZZZZ                         

Other notes
All koans that consist of a single letter, repeated between 1 and 5 times (inclusive), are black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 11, 2024, 07:22:45 PM
Okay, so... I need to get ready for / head off to work now, so I won't be able to update this for a while.

The rage these days seems to be to get AI to fill in for such tasks, and I figure an app is close enough. Here's my formatting tool, which has the rule hardcoded into it (ie: you can't see the rule, but you can test your koans against it). It can evaluate white / black koans for you all while I'm away. I will be able to view the forum on my breaks (using my phone, so can't run the formatter app or effectively edit nicely-formatted tables in posts), so I can confirm if a rule guess is correct or not and provide counter-examples, as well as address mass guesses like WillLem's one of strings of letters.

App attached. .NET 8.0 required. "old.txt" should be placed in the same directory (if desired), it contains a list of all the prior guesses so it knows which ones to mark as new (old.txt gets updated every time the app is run). You can create "notes.txt" to add a note section. New guesses should be placed in a file "input.txt", one per line, not case-sensitive and ignores leading / trailing whitespace, also ignores any koans that are already listed in old.txt. When the app is run (it will just pop up a console window that immediately closes, if all goes well), it will create (or modify) "output.txt" which creates the list of white and black koans, complete with BBCode formatting.

EDIT: Removed, as I'm home now. Please play fair, and if you used this to make guesses, share the outcome. ;)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 12, 2024, 11:21:26 AM
Any further guesses? (This isn't some ridiculously over-complex rule. I kinda realised looking at the trivia topic that some of my past ones were excessive. This is not like that.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 12, 2024, 12:18:24 PM
I have ideas. I will play within the week.

Your koan formatter produces trailing whitespace at the end of lines. Those spaces are unbreakable and unremovable because they're in the tt tag. They linebreak the list for me, which makes the list hard to read. Please trim those spaces!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 12, 2024, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: namida on November 12, 2024, 11:21:26 AMAny further guesses?

I've taken a good look at this (I wanted to have the next game, so I was particularly motivated to figure this one out) and haven't been able to find any discernible patterns in either list that don't also appear in the other.

I could probably do with a hint at this point, but maybe wait to see what Simon's next contribution is first.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 12, 2024, 03:55:16 PM
ATT
TTA
TTAA
TTAB
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 12, 2024, 07:52:11 PM
White Koans
  ASSASSIN                        KARAT                           POTARO
  ASSASSINATION                   KOTOR                           POTATO
  ASSO                            KSSKSSINKTION                   POTOR
* ATT                             MOTOR                           RACECARRACECARRACECARA
  ATTO                            NAMIDA                          STATISTIC
  BTTBTTJOBUJPO                   NOTOR                           TAXA
  CARAT                           ORBROWSERT                      TORBROWSER
  DANAMI                          PATAR                           ZRACECARRACECARRACECARX

Black Koans
  A                               COLA                            RAPTOR
  AA                              DANAMID                         ROT
  AAA                             EDIBLE                          ROTATE
  AAAA                            EDIBLEASSIGNABLELEMMING         ROTOR
  AAAAA                           EPOTATOE                        RPOTO
  ALIEN                           GEOO                            RTORBROWSER
  AMIDAN                          ICHOTOLOT                       SAAS
  ANAMID                          IDANAN                          SASS
  APOTATOA                        KAYWHYN                         SIMON
  ARACECARARACECARARACECAR        KITTEN                          SSSS
  ARACECARRACECARRACECAR          KITTENS                         STATS
  ASSA                            KOALA                           TAT
  ASSASSINATIONBAR                LEMMING                         TATA
  ASSASSINATIONBRA                MIDANA                          TATISTICS
  ASSIGNABLE                      MITTEN                          TATO
  ASSIGNABLELEMMING               MITTENS                         TEUR
  ASSIGNABLELIX                   NATION                          TOMATO
  ATLA                            OATOR                           TOR
  ATLO                            OOTOR                           TORBROWSERT
  ATORBROWSERA                    OPOTATO                         TOROT
  ATTA                            OR                              TOTOR
  BAAB                            OTATO                         * TTA
  BABB                            P                             * TTAA
  BBBB                            PATOR                         * TTAB
  BOOBS                           PEPSI                           WILLLEM
  BPOTATOB                        PORTABLE                        XNAMIDAX
  BROCCOLI                        POT                             XPOTATOX
  BTORBROWSERB                    POTAPA                          ZAAZ
  CAR                             POTAR                           ZAZZ
  CARROT                          POTATA                          ZBBZ
  CART                            POTATOP                         ZBZZ
  CHICKEN                         PROXIMA                         ZZZZ

Other notes
All koans that consist of a single letter, repeated between 1 and 5 times (inclusive), are black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 12, 2024, 08:09:50 PM
A koan has the Buddha-nature if its second letter appears more often than its first letter does.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 12, 2024, 08:24:11 PM
Yep, that's it! Well done.

(I considered whether to make it "second unique letter", or just "if the first two letters are the same, then the koan does not have the Buddha-nature because the first and second letter appear equal number of times". I went with the latter for simplicity; as the former would likely just result in someone guessing the latter, and the counterexample immediately giving away the actual rule, thus essentially just meaning whoever is quickest to post after that would steal the win.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 12, 2024, 08:49:13 PM
Nice, a straightforward rule, no strange groupings of letters. Completely different from what I wanted to investigate (distribution of vovel clusters among consonant clusters).

You've fixed the linebreaking, thanks!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 12, 2024, 08:49:49 PM
I'll pass it over to WillLem.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 12, 2024, 11:22:49 PM
Good rule, that one. Very difficult to spot, but simple enough in principle.

Quote from: Proxima on November 12, 2024, 08:49:49 PMI'll pass it over to WillLem.

That's kind of you, thanks. But you go ahead, you've earned it!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 14, 2024, 07:26:34 AM
Is there any list of rules that have already been played? I have an idea but I don't really want to repeat something that's similar to a rule already played. (Although one could argue that not having such a list would make it easier to play "repeat" rules, since they're more likely to be forgotten if not able to be looked up.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 14, 2024, 07:29:06 AM
List of rules already played (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=104032)

I'll link this from the OP.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 01:32:43 AM
OK, Proxima has confirmed that he's still happy for me to take the next round, so here it is. Should be an easy one:

White Koan
JOY

Black Koan
SWIM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 15, 2024, 01:38:20 AM
SOY
SWY
SWI
OY
Y
JO
J

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 15, 2024, 01:42:25 AM
JOYJOY
JOYSWIM
SWIMJOY
SWIMSWIM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Dullstar on November 15, 2024, 04:06:31 AM
CAKE
COOKIE
CHOCOLATE
VANILLA
MUFFIN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 15, 2024, 09:33:58 AM
JWIM
SOY
SWIT
JOM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 12:24:42 PM
White Koans
JOY
SOY
CAKE
COOKIE
CHOCOLATE
VANILLA
MUFFIN

Black Koans
SWIM
SWY
SWI
OY
Y
J
JO
JOYJOY
JOYSWIM
SWIMJOY
SWIMSWIM
JWIM
SWIT
JOM

(I'll take a look at the auto-formatter soon)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 15, 2024, 02:07:44 PM
SOY is on both lists.

JJ
JJJ
O
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 03:08:40 PM
Quote from: Simon on November 04, 2024, 09:36:20 PMRun it from a console without arguments

Not sure how to do this, so I'm using namida's GUI-based tool for now.

@namida - Do you have the source for your KoanTool? I'll have a go at adding asterisk-placing logic for new koans.

Quote from: Proxima on November 15, 2024, 02:07:44 PMSOY is on both lists.

Fixed, it's white. Here's the updated list:

White Koans
CAKE         COOKIE       MUFFIN       VANILLA     
CHOCOLATE    JOY          SOY                       

Black Koans
J            JOM          O            SWIMSWIM     
JJ           JOYJOY       OY           SWIT         
JJJ          JOYSWIM      SWI          SWY         
JO           JWIM         SWIMJOY      Y           
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 15, 2024, 04:55:22 PM
Quote from: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 03:08:40 PM
Quote from: Simon on November 04, 2024, 09:36:20 PMRun it from a console without arguments
Not sure how to do this

Create a batch file (right-click, new text file, rename later to runme.bat) in the same directory where zendofmt.exe and koans-w.txt and koans-b.txt sit.

Write into it:
.\zendofmt.exe > formatted.txt

Double-click the batch file.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: Simon on November 15, 2024, 04:55:22 PM(Instructions)

-- Simon

Thanks! :thumbsup:

Tested working, but I'll keep the above table as the most recent one for now rather than reposting the same data.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 15, 2024, 09:04:23 PM
OJ
YO
YOJ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 11:17:49 PM
White koans:
  CAKE
  CHOCOLATE
  COOKIE
  JO
  JOY
  MUFFIN
  SOY
  VANILLA

Black koans:
  J          OY
  JJ         SWI
  JJJ        SWIM
  JO         SWIMJOY
  JOM        SWIMSWIM
  JOYJOY     SWIT
  JOYSWIM    SWY
  JWIM       Y
  O        * YO
* OJ       * YOJ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 15, 2024, 11:49:04 PM
ANGELS
ENGULFED
EAST
SUMMER
SWUM

CEKA
ACEK
EACK

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 16, 2024, 06:02:10 AM
C
CH
CHO
CHOC
CHOCO
CHOCOL
CHOCOLA
CHOCOLAT
SO
YOY
AOY
EOY
IOY
OOY
UOY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 16, 2024, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: WillLem on November 15, 2024, 03:08:40 PM
Quote from: Simon on November 04, 2024, 09:36:20 PMRun it from a console without arguments

Not sure how to do this, so I'm using namida's GUI-based tool for now.

@namida - Do you have the source for your KoanTool? I'll have a go at adding asterisk-placing logic for new koans.

I don't even have the binary anymore for my old one, but here's the one I was using in the previous round (which already has the asterisk-placing). Compile with Visual Studio. Modify the CheckKoan function to implement your rule - it should return TRUE if the koan is white, FALSE if it's black. If your rule is quite complex, make sure you've thought about edge cases (even in my previous round with a relatively simple rule for example, I had to consider the case of single-letter koans, which don't have a second letter to count) - I'm sure you're well and truly experienced enough with coding by now to handle this.

Usage (all files mentioned should be in the same folder as the compiled EXE):
1. Put all new koans (ie: should be marked with a *) in "input.txt", one per line. Order and case don't matter and duplicates will be automatically filtered out, as will any spaces before or after the koan.
2. Put all old koans (ie: should be on the list but NOT marked with *) in "old.txt". Again, order and case don't matter. If a koan is in both files, old.txt takes priority (so it won't be marked with a *).
3. If you want to add a notes section like I did near the end of my round regarding the string-of-single-letter koans, put it in "notes.txt".
4. Run the EXE (no fancy stuff needed). You'll see a command prompt window for a split second then it'll close.
5. Check "output.txt" for the output. Note that when you run the EXE, it also updates "old.txt" to add all the new koans from "input.txt" to it. (So you should only ever need to modify old.txt if you're starting to use this tool mid-round. But it's good to know how in case an edge case comes up.)

(If you prefer to manually check the koans, this tool probably won't help you much, it's very much designed around the tool itself checking and doesn't have a way to manually specify if a koan is black or white. I do very strongly recommend manually double-checking it until you're very confident that your code is correct for your rule.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 16, 2024, 08:02:55 AM
Quote from: namida on November 16, 2024, 06:07:54 AMhere's the one I was using in the previous round

Thanks for this, I'll take a look at it. Auto-checking the koans is pretty neat! Ideally, I'd like to create one that does everything in the GUI, like your previous one (I've attached the binary to this post) rather than using separate .txt files to input and output everything.

In the meantime, I'll continue to use Simon's for now since I've already started this round with that one.

White koans:
* ANGELS
  CAKE
  CHOCOLATE
  COOKIE
* EAST
  JOY
  MUFFIN
  SOY
* SUMMER
  VANILLA

Black koans:
* ACEK     * CHOCOLAT    JOYJOY     SWIMJOY
* AOY      * EACK        JOYSWIM    SWIMSWIM
* C        * ENGULFED    JWIM       SWIT
* CEKA     * EOY         O        * SWUM
* CH       * IOY         OJ         SWY
* CHO        J         * OOY      * UOY
* CHOC       JJ          OY         Y
* CHOCO      JJJ       * SO         YO
* CHOCOL     JO          SWI        YOJ
* CHOCOLA    JOM         SWIM     * YOY

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: namida on November 16, 2024, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: WillLem on November 16, 2024, 08:02:55 AMThanks for this, I'll take a look at it. Auto-checking the koans is pretty neat! Ideally, I'd like to create one that does everything in the GUI, like your previous one (I've attached the binary to this post) rather than using separate .txt files to input and output everything.

Yeah, GUI would be nicer, but I basically hacked this tool together in like 5 minutes. :P GUI's take much longer than that.

(EDIT: Removed rule guess as I noticed black koans that contradict it.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 16, 2024, 08:24:55 AM
Quote from: namida on November 16, 2024, 08:14:04 AMYeah, GUI would be nicer, but ... take much longer

Wierdly, I find it much easier to work on something if it has a GUI than if it doesn't. For all the tools I've made so far, I've designed them GUI-first and implemented the logic from there, obviously going back to tweak the GUI if other features are needed.

Same goes for if I've added something new (e.g. to the Editor), like a button or whatever; I always put the button in first, then double-click it to auto-generate its event handler.

One thing I've had to be careful of with that approach, though, is coding logic to (e.g.) a button press that also needs to be used somewhere else; I've learned it's better to have the method be a separate thing, then call that method from the event handler (as opposed to calling the button's event handler from elsewhere).

Anyways, back to Zendo... here's the list again so it's on this page:

White koans:
* ANGELS
  CAKE
  CHOCOLATE
  COOKIE
* EAST
  JOY
  MUFFIN
  SOY
* SUMMER
  VANILLA

Black koans:
* ACEK     * CHOCOLAT    JOYJOY     SWIMJOY
* AOY      * EACK        JOYSWIM    SWIMSWIM
* C        * ENGULFED    JWIM       SWIT
* CEKA     * EOY         O        * SWUM
* CH       * IOY         OJ         SWY
* CHO        J         * OOY      * UOY
* CHOC       JJ          OY         Y
* CHOCO      JJJ       * SO         YO
* CHOCOL   * JO          SWI        YOJ
* CHOCOLA    JOM         SWIM     * YOY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 16, 2024, 04:15:33 PM
I'll just shoot a wild guess: AKHTBN iff it is an English noun.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 16, 2024, 07:08:49 PM
Quote from: Ramon on November 16, 2024, 04:15:33 PMI'll just shoot a wild guess: AKHTBN iff it is an English noun.

Correct! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 17, 2024, 01:33:19 AM
Wow awesome  :lix-evil: that is in fact a simple rule that I'm surprised hasn't been used before in a similar way.

I do have an idea but it's like 2:30am and I need to sleep but I'll think of posting it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 17, 2024, 09:06:51 AM
Alright I'm going to shamelessly steal your people's table formatting because I'm pretty sure I didn't get it to work around the last time  :P

White koans:
* END

Black koans:
* START
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 17, 2024, 06:25:35 PM
DNE
NDE
EEE
EAGLE
STAR
FINISH
BEGIN
LEMMING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 17, 2024, 10:18:34 PM
I'd love to use Simon's koan formatter but I am not versed in building repos

White koans:
* EEE
  END

Black koans:
* BEGIN
* DNE
* EAGLE
* LEMMING
* FINISH
* NDE
* STAR
  START

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 17, 2024, 10:24:26 PM
AKHTBN iff it begins with E.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 17, 2024, 10:25:50 PM
I don't want to delete my message as it may cause the game to become too messy if I delete things but I just noticed Eagle is already black I'm blind sorry.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 17, 2024, 10:59:53 PM
A koan has the Buddha-nature if it is three letters long and starts with E.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 17, 2024, 11:28:02 PM
DDD
NNN
ENE
STA

Quote from: Ramon on November 17, 2024, 10:18:34 PMI'd love to use Simon's koan formatter but I am not versed in building repos

I've now uploaded Windows and Linux executables (https://github.com/SimonN/zendofmt/releases). If you prefer to build it yourself nonetheless, let me know where you get stuck.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 18, 2024, 07:06:16 PM
Thanks! It worked like a charm.

Since one of Simon's guesses (NNN) disproves Proxima's guess of the rule, I didn't add a counterexample.

White koans:
  EEE
  END
* ENE
* NNN

Black koans:
  BEGIN
* DDD
  DNE
  EAGLE
  FINISH
  LEMMING
  NDE
* STA
  STAR
  START
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 18, 2024, 07:29:07 PM
ENN
NEE
NEN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 18, 2024, 08:05:57 PM
Quote from: Ramon on November 18, 2024, 07:06:16 PMSince one of Simon's guesses (NNN) disproves Proxima's guess of the rule, I didn't add a counterexample.

None disproved Proxmia's guess at the time of posting though, so it's still in the rules you need to provide a counter-example.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 18, 2024, 08:07:55 PM
AKHTBN iff it is three letters long, and starts with the fifth to the fourteenth letter of the alphabet.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 19, 2024, 02:10:51 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 18, 2024, 08:05:57 PMNone disproved Proxima's guess at the time of posting though, so it's still in the rules you need to provide a counter-example.

No, it isn't. NNN is a valid counterexample to my rule guess.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 02:38:07 AM
You're both right. Yes, Ramond has to provide a counterexample, and he chose NNN, which is a valid counterexample. I wanted to test NNN anyway, but there's no rule that prevents Ramond from looking at future posts. He could have chosen something else to help us more, but it's still early in the round and he wants to give as little away as possible.

CD
CED
CH
E
HHH
I
U
EXD

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 09:22:16 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 18, 2024, 08:05:57 PMNone disproved Proxmia's guess at the time of posting though, so it's still in the rules you need to provide a counter-example.

Since there's an actual turn order in live Zendo but playing by forum allows multiple guesses in one go before marking koans, I just resolved the guesses in my own particular order. We could add a "turn order" rule if you like.

Once again with the new batch of guesses there exist counterexamples to the last rule guess (and even before that the koan NDE is a counterexample).

White koans:
* E    * HHH
  EEE  * I
  END  * NEE
  ENE  * NEN
* ENN    NNN
* EXD  * U

Black koans:
  BEGIN    FINISH
* CD       LEMMING
* CED      NDE
* CH       STA
  DDD      STAR
  DNE      START
  EAGLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 19, 2024, 10:45:17 AM
CDE
N
NED
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 12:49:44 PM
(https://media.geeksforgeeks.org/wp-content/uploads/Convex_hull_1.jpg)

This is about the shape of the letters.

AKHTBN iff (first shoving the letters together to remove the gaps between them, then taking the convex hull of the entire koan) is the same set as (first taking the convex hull of each letter individually, and only then shoving the hulls together to remove the gaps between them).

Examples:


-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 03:21:02 PM
Wow, that's a really interesting guess Simon. But a counterexample is AAA which does not have matching sets as per your rule, but is marked white.

White koans:
* AAA    I
  E    * N
  EEE  * NED
  END    NEE
  ENE    NEN
  ENN    NNN
  EXD    U
  HHH

Black koans:
  BEGIN    EAGLE
  CD       FINISH
* CDE      LEMMING
  CED      NDE
  CH       STA
  DDD      STAR
  DNE      START
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 06:27:10 PM
E(*)D, where (*) represents each of the 26 letters of the alphabet (e.g. EAD, EBD, ECD, etc.).

EDIT: In addition, please test every letter of the alphabet individually (*), as a string of length 2 (**), as a string of length 3 (***), and as a string of length 4 (****).

Please by all means express the results of this guess as a statement rather than adding each string to the list of koans.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 07:12:39 PM
OQ
QO
WV
VYT
LEM

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PM
Quote from: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 06:27:10 PMEDIT: In addition, please test every letter of the alphabet individually (*), as a string of length 2 (**), as a string of length 3 (***), and as a string of length 4 (****).

Apart from the single letter koans, I don't think there is a general statement that can correctly mark all your wildcard guesses without listing them each individually, so please consider submitting only a smaller subset of guesses.
(Honestly I also feel like it's a bit of a dirty trick, since you could just submit those guesses at the beginning of every new rule without regard to the starting koans, which makes the early game kind of uninteresting and isn't usually possible in a live game of Zendo.)

White koans:
  AAA    NED
  E      NEE
  EEE    NEN
  END    NNN
  ENE  * OQ
  ENN  * QO
  EXD    U
  HHH  * VYT
  I    * WV
  N

Black koans:
  BEGIN    FINISH
  CD     * LEM
  CDE      LEMMING
  CED      NDE
  CH       STA
  DDD      STAR
  DNE      START
  EAGLE

All single letter koans are white.
E*D is white for: E H I K M N X Z
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 19, 2024, 08:26:55 PM
I think it would be good if we agreed on a rule in future to avoid wildcard guesses getting out of hand. I suggest:

On your turn, you may guess a wildcard pattern, such as X*A or ***E, which is understood as a set of 26 koan guesses, replacing all wildcards with each letter in turn (all wildcards must be replaced by the same letter). Only one wildcard pattern may be guessed at a time.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 10:13:44 PM
Quote from: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PMApart from the single letter koans, I don't think there is a general statement that can correctly mark all your wildcard guesses without listing them each individually

The way you've done it above is fine. Example:

(*) is white for: (list of letters)

(**) is white for: (list of letters)

(***) etc.

Quote from: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PMI also feel like it's a bit of a dirty trick, since you could just submit those guesses at the beginning of every new rule without regard to the starting koans, which makes the early game kind of uninteresting

As soon as strings like "EEE" and "NNN" are assigned a white koan, the logical next step is to guess the other letters of the alphabet in the same pattern. I probably wouldn't arbitrarily guess (*), (**), (***), etc unless "EEE", "NNN" or any other such string had first been guessed and assigned*.

Besides, if players guess "AAA, BBB, CCC, DDD, EEE..." individually across several posts, I'm fairly sure that won't make the early game any more interesting for either the player or the rulemaster! ;P

*EDIT: My first set of guesses was mostly full words, but only "EEE" gained a white koan. The full-alphabet guesses then seemed appropriate and necessary.

Quote from: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PMand isn't usually possible in a live game of Zendo.

OK, but we aren't playing a live game of Zendo. The format means that players might only be able to post one set of guesses per day, so the tendency is to want to optimize guesses.

The above guesses are intended to determine if any letter allows a string of (< 3), and which letters are not allowed in a string of (< 3). Of course, some letters may be allowed in the presence of other letters, but not by themselves. Hopefully my guess also turns up a few of those as well.

To be fair, I should probably have explained that so the guesses didn't seem perhaps so arbitrary.

Quote from: Proxima on November 19, 2024, 08:26:55 PMOn your turn, you may guess a wildcard pattern, such as X*A or ***E, which is understood as a set of 26 koan guesses, replacing all wildcards with each letter in turn (all wildcards must be replaced by the same letter). Only one wildcard pattern may be guessed at a time.

Fair enough, this is a good idea. One question that occurs, though: what determines a "turn"? Another user posting guesses after you? The rulemaster posting a reply to your initial guess?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 10:43:18 PM
Quote from: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 10:13:44 PMThe way you've done it above is fine. Example:

(*) is white for: (list of letters)

(**) is white for: (list of letters)

(***) etc.

(*) was pretty simple to mark, but everything above wasn't feasible for this particular round. Those are 676 guesses for (**) alone, and if roughly half of them are white without an easily explainable pattern, that still leaves over 300 koans to be manually marked or entered.

BUT in hindsight, reading your previous post again I realize I misunderstood what exactly you were guessing. I interpreted it as having each wildcard icon go through each letter individually, not just the same letter up to length 4. I will include those in the general patterns below the koans.

Quote from: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 10:13:44 PMFair enough, this is a good idea. One question that occurs, though: what determines a "turn"? Another user posting guesses after you? The rulemaster posting a reply to your initial guess?

Personally I think a turn should be considered the time between two rulemaster markings (once you put in a set of guesses, you can't add any more until the rulemaster has marked your last guesses). I'd also advocate for a limit of guesses per turn, but that's probably a bit harder to justify and a matter of personal taste. In the end it's just for fun though so I don't mind.

White koans:
  AAA    NED
  E      NEE
  EEE    NEN
  END    NNN
  ENE    OQ
  ENN    QO
  EXD    U
  HHH    VYT
  I      WV
  N

Black koans:
  BEGIN    FINISH
  CD       LEM
  CDE      LEMMING
  CED      NDE
  CH       STA
  DDD      STAR
  DNE      START
  EAGLE

All single letter koans are white.
E*D is white for: E H I K M N X Z (and black for every other letter)
(**), (***) and (****) is black for: B D F J L P R (and white for every other letter)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 11:02:18 PM
I'd be reluctant to introduce a hard limit per day, or a hard limit between posts.

I see why you would want that though. It would lose some of the spirit if every game begun with:
foreach (1 ≤ len ≤ 10), foreach ('A' ≤ x ≤ 'Z'), test xxx...x of length len.

People haven't done it so far, therefore I'm hesitant to enforce anything.

I've tested one batch of 26 in Proxima's round, and even made the choice of batch dependant on single instances of the batch that I predicted. If you really want to enforce a limit, such prediction seems like the better way. But then you'll be hung if you see no pattern to predict, but know that you want the batch tested. I still advise against any kind of limit.

Another argument that's weakly against introducing a limit: I conjectured that all single-letter koans were going to be white in Ramond's round here even after Ramond broke my theory about convex hulls. But I wanted to keep that for myself. I wouldn't have mass-tested the singles.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 11:16:59 PM
MEL
AE
FJ
AJ

zendofmt should support a free-form notes section that gets printed below black and white lists. namida's tool supports that, and here we need it again.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 11:24:43 PM
I'm totally fine with no limits if nobody just abuses it (which nobody has done so far and I don't imagine anybody here would do so).
The example you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of, because if each round of Zendo could start with such a general broad wildcard guess, why even keep the koan guessing part and not just have the Master auto-mark every koan up to a specific length, reducing the game just to guessing the rule? Purely hypothetically of course because that's way too many koans to list and read through manually and it kind of takes away the part where people "work towards" the rule by basing guesses off of existing marked koans.
When I first read WillLem's wildcard guesses, I interpreted them as Simon's example and it made me a bit uncomfortable due to the above reason, but realizing afterwards what the guess actually looked like, it definitely has justification coming from the flow of previous guesses and koans. Not that justification is required, but it makes for a slightly better game experience if guesses are made with a goal in mind and not just with a set of RNG letters.

White koans:
  AAA    N
  E      NED
  EEE    NEE
  END    NEN
  ENE    NNN
  ENN    OQ
  EXD    QO
  HHH    U
  I      VYT
* MEL    WV

Black koans:
* AE       EAGLE
* AJ       FINISH
  BEGIN  * FJ
  CD       LEM
  CDE      LEMMING
  CED      NDE
  CH       STA
  DDD      STAR
  DNE      START

All single letter koans are white.
E*D is white for: E H I K M N X Z (and black for every other letter)
(**), (***) and (****) is black for: B D F J L P R (and white for every other letter)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 19, 2024, 11:31:02 PM
AV
AW
DO
EUM
VW
WM

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 19, 2024, 11:40:26 PM
Quote from: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 11:24:43 PMit makes for a slightly better game experience if guesses are made with a goal in mind and not just with a set of RNG letters

I totally agree.

I'd say the main problem with the letter-based Zendo is that it doesn't preclude the use of strings such as "FFFFFFFXXXOZZAAA" and other nonsensical and random strings of letters.

A numerical game might be better suited to this format, or maybe add a rule to the letter-based game that all koans must be recognisable strings of letters.

Such a rule would remove the need for guesses such as "E*D where * is each of the 26 letters of the alphabet in turn".

But, it would also massively reduce the scope of the letter-based game.

Anyway, new guess for this round:

FFFFFFFXXXOZZAAA :lemcat:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 19, 2024, 11:50:15 PM
Good guess!
Also with this post I am heading to bed so don't wait up   :lemming: :8:()[:

White koans:
  AAA    HHH    OQ
* DO     I      QO
  E      MEL    U
  EEE    N    * VW
  END    NED    VYT
  ENE    NEE    WV
  ENN    NEN
  EXD    NNN

Black koans:
  AE      CH                 LEM
  AJ      DDD                LEMMING
* AV      DNE                NDE
* AW      EAGLE              STA
  BEGIN * EUM                STAR
  CD    * FFFFFFFXXXOZZAAA   START
  CDE     FINISH           * WM
  CED     FJ

All single letter koans are white.
E*D is white for: E H I K M N X Z (and black for every other letter)
(**), (***) and (****) is black for: B D F J L P R (and white for every other letter)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 12:11:46 AM
Consider the rectangular bounding box of each uppercase letter. The bounding box's bottom side is flush with the horizontal floor line on which all letters sit. We'll look at which of the four corners of the bounding box are reached by the letter's shape.

Examples: The letters H, X, M all touch all four corners of their individual bounding boxes. The letter A touches only the two lower corners of its bounding box, not the two upper ones. The letter R touches three corners (all except top right). The letter J touches only the top right corner. Some particularly round letters S, C, O touch no corners at all.

Q is a fickle case. I interpret it as touching no corners. Maybe it touches the bottom right corner in some fonts; it doesn't in mine.


The rule is that neighboring letters "agree" on the corners:

AKHTBN iff, for every possible pair of neighboring letters (one letter immediately following another) inside the koan, both of the following conditions hold.


-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:04:49 AM
zendofmt 1.1.0 (https://github.com/SimonN/zendofmt/releases) is out with support for footer text.

How it works: Optionally, create a third file footer.txt with free-form text that will appear below the two koan lists. Backticks ` in footer.txt will appear as [tt] and [/tt] alternately. Linebreaks will appear as-is.

Love how there are 3 tools now in active development alongside the running games.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 20, 2024, 09:34:11 AM
Quote from: Simon on November 20, 2024, 12:11:46 AMThe rule is that neighboring letters "agree" on the corners:

AKHTBN iff, for every possible pair of neighboring letters (one letter immediately following another) inside the koan, both of the following conditions hold.

  • The left neighbor touches the top right corner of its own bounding box iff the right neighbor touches the top left corner of its own bounding box.
  • The left neighbor touches the bottom right corner of its own bounding box iff the right neighbor touches the bottom left corner of its own bounding box.

This is exactly correct.
I wasn't very sure on picking this rule because I did not have a good way to formulate the rule in my mind at that point. Furthermore one could argue that whether a letter touches a corner or not is not exactly standardized and dependent on the font used. Decided to roll with it anyway, because as we know, if there is ambiguity about details, the master is always right (and I chose for Q not to be touching the bottom right corner).
After seeing Simon's first rule guess I kinda wish I had chosen that one because it feels very elegant.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:03:18 PM
Thanks!

As elegant as the convex hull idea may sound, I think you played the more interesting round, at only the cost of a difficult-to-word guess. Your rule produces more variety in the white set. For the convex hull idea, all inner letters (= all except the first and the last) would have to be four-corner-touching letters. This will boil down to identifying 3 classes of letters: (1) the blocky letters that touch all four corners, which are the letters allowed everywhere in the koan, (2) additionally allowed first letters, (3) additionally allowed last letters.

I'll write a longer post about ambiguities, but that's for a different thread. Both of the recent rules (English nouns, and corner agreement) are interesting to study in light of ambiguities. I'm also surprised how quickly both got solved.

In the meantime ...


Next round

White koan: WRONG
Black koan: INCORRECT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:10:03 PM
I respect it's up to Simon, but in my opinion all this talk about adding a turn system and guesses having a goal in mind is the anthesis of the spirit of forum Zendo that it's up to the person who makes the rule to want to provide a fun expirence and not be too frustrating. As long as people are playing in this spirit then I don't think there's anything wrong. Besides, the "purpose" of a guess can mean multiple things and not be a set-in-stone objective thing and people can have multiple leads in their short-term memoyry in the mind.

Anyway, for Simon's next round, I'm going to guess AKHTBN iff it's a homophone.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:22:55 PM
Yes, I agree.

The counterexample is EIGHT, which is a homophone of "ate", but it's black.

White koans:
  WRONG

Black koans:
* EIGHT
  INCORRECT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:24:42 PM
ZERO
ONE
TWO
THREE
FOUR
FIVE
SIX
SEVEN
EIGHT
NINE
TEN
RIGHT
CORRECT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:26:02 PM
Don't want to edit my post as editing messages in Zendo seems like a recepie for things to get messy fast but EIGHT was already marked black in https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1849.msg104391#msg104391 so you don't need to re-mark EIGHT as black or white again.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:28:52 PM
Well, you found one. :8():

White koans:
* ONE
  WRONG

Black koans:
* CORRECT    * SEVEN
  EIGHT      * SIX
* FIVE       * TEN
* FOUR       * THREE
  INCORRECT  * TWO
* NINE       * ZERO
* RIGHT

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:31:44 PM
CLAM
FROG
LIX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 04:33:43 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:10:03 PMI respect it's up to Simon, but in my opinion all this talk about adding a turn system
There is already a "turn system", and the only suggestion was to limit the number of guesses per turn, as I felt that WillLem's guess of four wildcard templates at once (104 koans total) was excessive.

Quoteand guesses having a goal in mind
I assume you mean Ramon's post #840, but again you are stripping away the context: Ramon said that he misinterpreted WillLem's guess as being "I guess all koans up to 4 letters", and was explaining why he disagreed with making such a guess. No-one has argued for "guesses must have a goal in mind" to be an explicit rule, which would drain the fun out of the game as well as being nearly impossible to enforce.

* * *

CORRE
GNORW
LEFT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:41:01 PM
White koans:
* GNORW
  ONE
  WRONG

Black koans:
* CLAM       * LIX
* CORRE        NINE
  CORRECT      RIGHT
  EIGHT        SEVEN
  FIVE         SIX
  FOUR         TEN
* FROG         THREE
  INCORRECT    TWO
* LEFT         ZERO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 04:48:46 PM
A koan has the Buddha-nature if its letters are in either alphabetical order or reverse alphabetical order.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 04:52:21 PM
You are englightened! Congrats, that was quick.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 04:33:43 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 04:10:03 PMI respect it's up to Simon, but in my opinion all this talk about adding a turn system
There is already a "turn system", and the only suggestion was to limit the number of guesses per turn, as I felt that WillLem's guess of four wildcard templates at once (104 koans total) was excessive.

Quoteand guesses having a goal in mind
I assume you mean Ramon's post #840, but again you are stripping away the context: Ramon said that he misinterpreted WillLem's guess as being "I guess all koans up to 4 letters", and was explaining why he disagreed with making such a guess. No-one has argued for "guesses must have a goal in mind" to be an explicit rule, which would drain the fun out of the game as well as being nearly impossible to enforce.

* * *

CORRE
GNORW
LEFT
:sorry:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 05:19:13 PM
zendofmt 1.2.0 is out (https://github.com/SimonN/zendofmt/releases) (how to use (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?msg=104287)), it fixes the following two bugs:


Silken, no worries!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 05:40:24 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 04:48:46 PMA koan has the Buddha-nature if its letters are in either alphabetical order or reverse alphabetical order.

I awarded Proxima the win here. In the tabletop game with limited guessing stones, I would have asked back to clarify: What happens with equal-weight elements in the range-to-be-sorted? I.e., would Proxima mark AAABCC white or black, given that he marks ABC white and ACA black? (AAABCC would have been white, but nobody except me knew.)

In the forum game here, we have unlimited guesses, and the possible alternatives (either repeats are allowed, or they aren't) are completely clear to everybody the moment I ask for clarification. That's why I cut short this obvious endgame here.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 06:25:29 PM
Yeah, no worries, I'm not upset or anything, just didn't want my earlier words to be taken wrongly.

New round!

White koans:
NORTH

Black koans:
SOUTH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 06:30:39 PM
WEST
EAST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 06:46:30 PM
Both black.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 07:11:18 PM
NO
SO
ORTH
OUTH
OTH

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 07:22:23 PM
White koans:
NO
NORTH
ORTH

Black koans:
EAST
SO
SOUTH
OTH
OUTH
WEST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 07:40:44 PM
AC
AD
AG
OR

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 07:50:42 PM
White koans:
NO
NORTH
OR
ORTH

Black koans:
AC
AD
AG
EAST
SO
SOUTH
OTH
OUTH
WEST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 08:00:42 PM
RO
SORTH
SOURTH

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 20, 2024, 08:07:39 PM
All white.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2024, 08:55:51 PM
OO
RR
MO
OS
ONO

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 09:11:39 PM
AKHTBN iff it contains the letter "r"
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 09:54:57 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on November 20, 2024, 09:11:39 PMAKHTBN iff it contains the letter "r"

INVALID GUESS

Code Select
[2024-11-20 21:35:04] <@SimonN> SilkenHealer_: AKHTBN iff it contains the letter "r": Existing example NO is white.
:sorry:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 02:17:49 AM
White koans:
NO
NORTH
ONO
OR
ORTH
RO
RR
SORTH
SOURTH

Black koans:
AC
AD
AG
EAST
MO
OO
OS
SO
SOUTH
OTH
OUTH
WEST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 02:25:20 AM
R
O
AR
AO
CEFGHIJKLM

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 02:36:42 AM
White koans:
AR
NO
NORTH
ONO
OR
ORTH
R
RO
RR
SORTH
SOURTH

Black koans:
AC            OTH
AD            OUTH
AG            SO
AO            SOUTH
CEFGHIJKLM    WEST
EAST
MO
O
OO
OS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 02:39:40 AM
AKHTBN iff it contains at least one R or at least one N (or both).

BDP
QVW
XYZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 02:45:51 AM
You accidentally counterexampled yourself  :P

White koans:
AR       SORTH
NO       SOURTH
NORTH
ONO
OR
ORTH
QVW
R
RO
RR

Black koans:
AC            OS
AD            OTH
AG            OUTH
AO            SO
BDP           SOUTH
CEFGHIJKLM    WEST
EAST          XYZ
MO
O
OO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 03:36:59 AM
AKHTBN iff it contains an R or a letter at ±4 from R (which are N and V).

This would be the only pattern I see. Everything else is an arbitrary set of letters that doesn't seem to make nice words, or be at nice distances from each other. If that's not the solution: Test the following three ...

V
Q
W

... and then guess: AKHTBN iff it contains at least one of: R, N, or a white one of those three (Q, V, W).

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 03:56:53 AM
Added the counterexample ZONE.

White koans:
AR       RR
NO       SORTH
NORTH    SOURTH
ONO
OR
ORTH
Q
QVW
R
RO

Black koans:
AC            OS
AD            OTH
AG            OUTH
AO            SO
BDP           SOUTH
CEFGHIJKLM    V
EAST          W
MO            WEST
O             XYZ
OO            ZONE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 04:01:32 AM
The outermost peel of the onion has come off.

NE
ZN
ZNE
ZONNE

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 04:05:20 AM
Quote from: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 03:56:53 AMWhite koans:
AR       RR
NO       SOUTH
[...]

SOUTH is suddenly white here. It's still correctly black, too. SORTH is the missing white koan.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 04:52:09 AM
Thanks, fixed.

White koans:
AR       RO
NE       RR
NO       SORTH
NORTH    SOURTH
ONO      ZONNE
OR
ORTH
Q
QVW
R

Black koans:
AC            OS       ZNE
AD            OTH      ZONE
AG            OUTH
AO            SO
BDP           SOUTH
CEFGHIJKLM    V
EAST          W
MO            WEST
O             XYZ
OO            ZN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 10:22:45 AM
ZNNE
OW
WO
S
SOR
SORT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 10:53:17 AM
PAR
QUOTE
QUEST
QUIG
QUICK

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 11:45:47 AM
White koans:
AR       QUICK    SOURTH
NE       QUIG     ZNNE
NO       QUOTE    ZONNE
NORTH    QVW
ONO      R
OR       RO
ORTH     RR
PAR      SOR
Q        SORT
QUEST    SORTH

Black koans:
AC            OS       WO
AD            OTH      XYZ
AG            OUTH     ZN
AO            OW       ZNE
BDP           S        ZONE
CEFGHIJKLM    SO
EAST          SOUTH
MO            V
O             W
OO            WEST
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 12:25:43 PM
ACR
ADR
AGR
AOR
Z
ZR
ZNR
ZNER
OQ
OOQ
OQO
N
NN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 01:00:50 PM
AKHTBN iff

Ah, and something cute:

AKHTBN iff it has more straight diagonal line segments with negative slope \ than with positive slope /. Equivalently, it has more appearances of N, Q, R added together than appearances of Z. All other letters either have no diagonals, or have both kinds of diagonals (A) but in same amounts.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 06:36:03 PM
Quote from: Simon on November 21, 2024, 01:00:50 PMAKHTBN iff it has more straight diagonal line segments with negative slope \ than with positive slope /. Equivalently, it has more appearances of N, Q, R added together than appearances of Z. All other letters either have no diagonals, or have both kinds of diagonals (A) but in same amounts.
Correct and thank goodness, saves me from inserting a hefty bunch all at once!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 21, 2024, 07:49:21 PM
Thanks! Yeah, the guess felt exactly correct.

I think I'll pass the next round to Silken or Ramond. I don't have a good rule ready.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 08:53:06 PM
I'd have a new one but I'd let Silken host if they have a good idea!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 21, 2024, 08:57:01 PM
I don't have any rule ideas and playing as the master seems like too much work, thanks anyway though
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 09:02:49 PM
Alright then buckle up!

White koans:
* BUCKLE

Black koans:
* UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 21, 2024, 09:04:44 PM
BELT
DOWN
LEFT
RIGHT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 09:07:11 PM
BUBBLE
BUCK
UPWARD
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 09:11:55 PM
White koans:
  BUCKLE
* LEFT
* RIGHT
* UPWARD

Black koans:
* BELT
* BUBBLE
* BUCK
* DOWN
  UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 21, 2024, 09:33:29 PM
BUA
BUB
BUC
BUD
BUE
BUI
BUO
BUU
BUY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 21, 2024, 09:35:43 PM
BEFT
BLEFT
LELT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 21, 2024, 09:55:53 PM
LEMMING
LEMMINGS
BUCKS
BUCKLES
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 21, 2024, 10:32:12 PM
EDIT: I realized I mismarked the koan BUCK, which is in fact black.

White koans:
* BEFT
* BLEFT
  BUCKLE
* BUCKLES
* BUI
* BUY
  LEFT
  RIGHT
  UPWARD

Black koans:
  BELT    * BUE
* BUA     * BUO
* BUB     * BUU
  BUBBLE    DOWN
* BUC     * LELT
* BUCK    * LEMMING
* BUCKS   * LEMMINGS
* BUD       UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 22, 2024, 03:21:03 AM
BUH
BUJ
BUX
BUZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 22, 2024, 08:10:22 AM
White koans:
  BEFT     * BUJ
  BLEFT      BUY
  BUCKLE     LEFT
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
* BUH        UPWARD
  BUI

Black koans:
  BELT      BUO
  BUA       BUU
  BUB     * BUX
  BUBBLE  * BUZ
  BUC       DOWN
  BUCK      LELT
  BUCKS     LEMMING
  BUD       LEMMINGS
  BUE       UP
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 22, 2024, 11:55:51 AM
BLELT
BLEMMING
BUF
FEMMING
FLEMMING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 22, 2024, 01:01:38 PM
White koans:
  BEFT       BUJ
  BLEFT      BUY
  BUCKLE     LEFT
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
  BUH        UPWARD
  BUI

Black koans:
  BELT        BUCKS    DOWN
* BLELT       BUD    * FEMMING
* BLEMMING    BUE    * FLEMMING
  BUA       * BUF      LELT
  BUB         BUO      LEMMING
  BUBBLE      BUU      LEMMINGS
  BUC         BUX      UP
  BUCK        BUZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 22, 2024, 09:32:34 PM
B
BB
BBB
BBBB
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 22, 2024, 09:37:56 PM
BELTF
BUG
LEMMINGF
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 22, 2024, 09:42:46 PM
White koans:
  BEFT       BUJ
* BELTF      BUY
  BLEFT      LEFT
  BUCKLE   * LEMMINGF
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
  BUH        UPWARD
  BUI

Black koans:
* B           BUC      BUZ
* BB          BUCK     DOWN
* BBB         BUCKS    FEMMING
* BBBB        BUD      FLEMMING
  BELT        BUE      LELT
  BLELT       BUF      LEMMING
  BLEMMING  * BUG      LEMMINGS
  BUA         BUO      UP
  BUB         BUU
  BUBBLE      BUX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 22, 2024, 09:45:10 PM
AURA
OCEAN
FRUIT
LOVELY
SUPERB

Please also test (BU*) where * is each of the 26 letters of the alphabet. The result can be phrased as:

BU* is white for (list of letters).

Then, all such strings can be removed from the table where they appear individually.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 22, 2024, 11:02:45 PM
White koans:
  BEFT      LEFT
  BELTF      LEMMINGF
  BLEFT    * LOVELY
  BUCKLE    RIGHT
  BUCKLES  * SUPERB
* FRUIT      UPWARD

Black koans:
* AURA        BUCKS
  B          DOWN
  BB          FEMMING
  BBB        FLEMMING
  BBBB        LELT
  BELT        LEMMING
  BLELT      LEMMINGS
  BLEMMING  * OCEAN
  BUBBLE      UP
  BUCK

(BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 22, 2024, 11:44:48 PM
Please test:

(*)
(**)
(***)

Where * is one of the 26 letters of the alphabet. Example:

A
AA
AAA

Please express as (for example):

(*) is white for (list of letters)
(**) is white for (list of letters)
(***) is white for (list of letters)

Thanks :lemcat:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 23, 2024, 09:02:28 AM
White koans:
  BEFT       LEFT
  BELTF      LEMMINGF
  BLEFT      LOVELY
  BUCKLE     RIGHT
  BUCKLES    SUPERB
  FRUIT      UPWARD

Black koans:
  AURA        DOWN
  BBBB        FEMMING
  BELT        FLEMMING
  BLELT       LELT
  BLEMMING    LEMMING
  BUBBLE      LEMMINGS
  BUCK        OCEAN
  BUCKS       UP

(BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 23, 2024, 01:20:58 PM
This is a tough one. I'm ready for a hint if nobody else has any ideas/guesses.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 24, 2024, 07:04:43 AM
Yes, very tricky. The main difficulty is that {H I J Y} do not seem a very natural set -- I can't find anything those four have in common that no other letters do, and it doesn't help to narrow down whether we should be looking at letter shapes, positions in the alphabet, some form of letters-to-numbers....

Let's try this.

BU
U* where * is each letter in turn
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 24, 2024, 09:50:08 AM
White koans:
  BEFT       LEFT
  BELTF      LEMMINGF
  BLEFT      LOVELY
  BUCKLE     RIGHT
  BUCKLES    SUPERB
  FRUIT      UPWARD

Black koans:
  AURA        DOWN
  BBBB        FEMMING
  BELT        FLEMMING
  BLELT       LELT
  BLEMMING    LEMMING
* BU          LEMMINGS
  BUBBLE      OCEAN
  BUCK        UP
  BUCKS

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 24, 2024, 12:16:19 PM
EFT
EF
FT
UEUFUTU

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 24, 2024, 01:15:51 PM
White koans:
  BEFT     * FT
  BELTF      LEFT
  BLEFT      LEMMINGF
  BUCKLE     LOVELY
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
* EFT        SUPERB
  FRUIT      UPWARD

Black koans:
  AURA      * EF
  BBBB        FEMMING
  BELT        FLEMMING
  BLELT       LELT
  BLEMMING    LEMMING
  BU          LEMMINGS
  BUBBLE      OCEAN
  BUCK      * UEUFUTU
  BUCKS       UP
  DOWN

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on November 24, 2024, 02:30:38 PM
UUUUEFT
RFUTI
LEMMBING

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 24, 2024, 03:10:44 PM
White koans:
  BEFT       LEFT
  BELTF      LEMMINGF
  BLEFT      LOVELY
  BUCKLE   * RFUTI
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
  EFT        SUPERB
  FRUIT      UPWARD
  FT       * UUUUEFT

Black koans:
  AURA        EF
  BBBB        FEMMING
  BELT        FLEMMING
  BLELT       LELT
  BLEMMING  * LEMMBING
  BU          LEMMING
  BUBBLE      LEMMINGS
  BUCK        OCEAN
  BUCKS       UEUFUTU
  DOWN        UP

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 24, 2024, 03:44:20 PM
BT
EFH
LEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 24, 2024, 04:44:53 PM
Haha "LEMMBING" :crylaugh:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 24, 2024, 06:57:05 PM
White koans:
  BEFT       LEFT
  BELTF      LEMMINGF
  BLEFT      LOVELY
  BUCKLE     RFUTI
  BUCKLES    RIGHT
  EFT        SUPERB
  FRUIT      UPWARD
  FT         UUUUEFT

Black koans:
  AURA        BUCK        LELT
  BBBB        BUCKS       LEMMBING
  BELT        DOWN        LEMMING
  BLELT       EF          LEMMINGS
  BLEMMING  * EFH         OCEAN
* BT          FEMMING     UEUFUTU
  BU          FLEMMING    UP
  BUBBLE    * LEL

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 26, 2024, 07:20:06 AM
If I were to give a hint, what sort of hint would you prefer? Insightful koans or a nudge toward the rule itself (or the exclusion of rule aspects)?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 26, 2024, 11:36:36 AM
Nudge towards the rule for me.

Maybe wait and see what others say as well; some players prefer to give it a bit longer before hints are involved.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 26, 2024, 10:17:03 PM
Maybe an insightful koan or two for now, and a bigger hint later if that turns out not to be enough?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 27, 2024, 08:58:09 AM
So I'm not actually sure how to give good koan examples without giving too much away, but here goes.

WE is white, and NO is black.

White koans:
  BEFT       LEMMINGF
  BELTF      LOVELY
  BLEFT      RFUTI
  BUCKLE     RIGHT
  BUCKLES    SUPERB
  EFT        UPWARD
  FRUIT      UUUUEFT
  FT       * WE
  LEFT

Black koans:
  AURA        BUCK        LELT
  BBBB        BUCKS       LEMMBING
  BELT        DOWN        LEMMING
  BLELT       EF          LEMMINGS
  BLEMMING    EFH       * NO
  BT          FEMMING     OCEAN
  BU          FLEMMING    UEUFUTU
  BUBBLE      LEL         UP

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 27, 2024, 10:22:26 AM
It seems to be something to do with letter pairings/alphabet position, but each time I think I've found something there's an existing koan that disproves it.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 27, 2024, 12:36:38 PM
EW
FE
HU
ON
PU
TB
TF
UB
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 27, 2024, 01:18:35 PM
AB
BC
CD
DE
EF
FG
GH
HI
IJ
JK
KL
LM
MN
OP
PQ
QR
RS
ST
TU
UV
VW
WX
XY
XZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 27, 2024, 02:19:18 PM
White koans:
  BEFT       FRUIT     * MN
  BELTF      FT        * OP
  BLEFT    * GH          RFUTI
  BUCKLE   * HU          RIGHT
  BUCKLES  * IJ          SUPERB
* CD       * JK        * TF
* DE       * KL          UPWARD
  EFT        LEFT        UUUUEFT
* EW         LEMMINGF    WE
* FG         LOVELY    * XZ

Black koans:
* AB          BUBBLE    * HI        * ON    UEUFUTU
  AURA        BUCK        LEL       * PQ    UP
  BBBB        BUCKS       LELT      * PU  * UV
* BC          DOWN        LEMMBING  * QR  * VW
  BELT      * EF          LEMMING   * RS  * WX
  BLELT       EFH         LEMMINGS  * ST  * XY
  BLEMMING  * FE        * LM        * TB
  BT          FEMMING     NO        * TU
  BU          FLEMMING    OCEAN     * UB

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 27, 2024, 02:34:38 PM
YZ

NOON
EON
WON
NOW
OWN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 27, 2024, 03:27:41 PM
ALEMMING
HLEMMING
SLEMMING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 27, 2024, 11:02:57 PM
Nice you managed to generate only black koans

White koans:
  BEFT       FRUIT       MN
  BELTF      FT          OP
  BLEFT      GH          RFUTI
  BUCKLE     HU          RIGHT
  BUCKLES    IJ          SUPERB
  CD         JK          TF
  DE         KL          UPWARD
  EFT        LEFT        UUUUEFT
  EW         LEMMINGF    WE
  FG         LOVELY      XZ

Black koans:
  AB          BU        FEMMING     LM       QR          UV
* ALEMMING    BUBBLE    FLEMMING    NO       RS          VW
  AURA        BUCK      HI        * NOON   * SLEMMING  * WON
  BBBB        BUCKS   * HLEMMING  * NOW      ST          WX
  BC          DOWN      LEL         OCEAN    TB          XY
  BELT        EF        LELT        ON       TU        * YZ
  BLELT       EFH       LEMMBING  * OWN      UB
  BLEMMING  * EON       LEMMING     PQ       UEUFUTU
  BT          FE        LEMMINGS    PU       UP

(U*) and (BU*) is white for H I J Y (and black for every other letter)
(*), (**) and (***) is black for all letters
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 29, 2024, 07:04:57 PM
This one is very hard and I'm getting nowhere. Maybe it's time for more of a hint  :lix-cool:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 01:27:58 AM
+1 for a hint.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 30, 2024, 01:00:14 PM
The rule does not involve letter shapes or numbers (that includes the ordering of letters within the alphabet) of any kind. There is an external schema concerning the alphabet you need to know though (and I'm pretty sure you do).
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 05:11:05 PM
Lovely puzzle  :forehead:  A koan has the buddha-nature if it contains two letters, consecutive within the koan, that border each other on a QWERTY keyboard.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 05:30:01 PM
Ah, I thought it was something else (which I won't mention in case anyone uses it for a future rule), but a few koans didn't fit the pattern. Well spotted, Proxima!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on November 30, 2024, 06:14:15 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 05:11:05 PMLovely puzzle  :forehead:  A koan has the buddha-nature if it contains two letters, consecutive within the koan, that border each other on a QWERTY keyboard.

Congrats! At first I was afraid it might be "too easy" (especially with all the koans testing each letter with a static neighbor), but as the general rule states, if the master thinks it's "too easy" then it's just right. Seems like it was way harder than I anticipated though!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 06:39:22 PM
Quote from: Ramon on November 30, 2024, 06:14:15 PMSeems like it was way harder than I anticipated though!

It's that old chestnut; easy when you know the answer! ;P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 07:07:16 PM
Next round!

White koans:
TAXING

Black koans:
MAYHEM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 30, 2024, 07:16:21 PM
FUN
TRICKY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 07:58:01 PM
White koans:
TAXING
TRICKY

Black koans:
FUN
MAYHEM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 08:51:58 PM
AKHBN iff it begins with T
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 08:54:19 PM
Counterexample: CRAZY has the Buddha-nature.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on November 30, 2024, 09:02:08 PM
AKHTBN iff it's a Lemmings diffuclty level that isn't the first or the last one
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 09:03:53 PM
Alas, TAME has the Buddha-nature too.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 09:12:05 PM
WILD
WICKED
HAVOC
LEMMING
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 09:18:52 PM
White koans:
CRAZY
TAME
TAXING
TRICKY

Black koans:
FUN
HAVOC
LEMMING
MAYHEM
WICKED
WILD
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 09:20:49 PM
AKHBN iff it begins with C or T
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 09:25:14 PM
REPTON also has the Buddha-nature.  :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 10:50:03 PM
Hmm. OK then, we need to start ruling letters out.

(*)
(**)
(***)

Where * is each letter of the alphabet, so:

A
AA
AAA

Then the same for B, C, D, etc. This can be expressed as:

(*) is white for (letters)
(**) is white for (letters)
(***) is white for (letters)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 11:05:44 PM
Already? The round had just started  :o  But if you insist:

White koans:
CRAZY
REPTON
TAME
TAXING
TRICKY

Black koans:
FUN
HAVOC
LEMMING
MAYHEM
WICKED
WILD

(*) and (***) are white for {A C E G I K M O Q S U W Y}
(**) is white for all letters except those
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on November 30, 2024, 11:45:25 PM
Quote from: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 11:05:44 PMAlready? The round had just started

In fairness, that guess has shown that alternate alphabet letters is important, as is odd and even numbers of letters. It tends to give a lot of information in one go, so it actually makes sense to do it as soon as possible.

With that said, it hasn't revealed the rule so far in any round! ;P

OK then, here are some more interesting guesses:

CAT
RABBIT
OSTRICH
ALIEN

PACIFIC
INDIAN
ATLANTIC
ARCTIC
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 12:11:40 AM
AKHTBN iff the first letter's place value in the alphabet is even if the word length is even and odd if the word length is odd
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 01, 2024, 02:34:04 AM
Yes, correct.

I just think it's not in the spirit of the game if you guess 78 koans at once in the very early stages when people are still making the first connections and spotting the first threads. Also, if this becomes the normal way people play, then a lot of potentially interesting rules can't be tried because they're vulnerable to this kind of attack.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 03:09:54 AM
I'll pass the next round on to whoever
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 03:31:52 AM
Quote from: Proxima on December 01, 2024, 02:34:04 AMI just think it's not in the spirit of the game if you guess 78 koans at once in the very early stages when people are still making the first connections and spotting the first threads

Jeez, I can't even play Zendo without causing some sort of fuss :forehead: <--- (N.B. This is meant as a light-hearted joke, I don't actually think this is true)

OK, fair enough, let's agree not to allow those sorts of guesses any more. It hasn't really been an issue so far (Ramon's round went on for over a week despite several of those sorts of guesses!), but I can absolutely see how, in your round, that guessing tactic basically gave away the rule. In fairness to Silken though, he managed to spot the rule and I didn't.

I have a great idea for a rule, but I think Proxima should go again and this time let's agree first to only guess actual, fully-written-out koans as opposed to conceptual guesses such as those that generate multiple koans at once.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 03:43:05 AM
Quote from: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 03:31:52 AMJeez, I can't even play Zendo without causing some sort of fuss :forehead:
I think Proxima meant that he was concerned that wildcards weren't in the spirit of Zendo in general, not that he was upset over this spesific round. Please don't get into a quarrel :lix-sad:.

Quote from: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 03:31:52 AMOK, let's agree not to allow those sorts of guesses any more. It hasn't really been an issue so far (Ramon's round went on for over a week despite several of those sorts of guesses!), but I can absolutely see how, in your round, that guessing tactic basically gave away the rule.

I'd be very hesistant to outright ban any guesses, as it's subjective what a "in the spirit" and "isn't in the spirit" guess is. In theroy you could type out all the guesses by hand. And in theroy when people make a guess and they think they're on to something, they may make "permutation-esque" guesses around it e.g. replace one letter with all the vowels and/or some other letters, or shift the guess around one etc. So where do you draw the line? I think the goal of forum Zendo is to have a good puzzle and to have fun, not about winning or losing.

That being said I've never really thought about bothering to use those sorts of guesses when playing, and I can totally see how the wildcard guess can be percieved as not being in the spirit of the game. I'm just scared if the rule about what guesses are and aren't allowed has an element of subjectivity I'll accidently make a mistake and spoil the game and make everyone hate me.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 04:05:34 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 03:43:05 AM
Quote from: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 03:31:52 AMJeez, I can't even play Zendo without causing some sort of fuss :forehead:
I think Proxima meant that he was concerned that wildcards weren't in the spirit of Zendo in general, not that he was upset over this spesific round. Please don't get into a quarrel :lix-sad:.

That comment was meant as a joke (I've edited the post to make that clear). Things like that don't always come across on the Forums. There's no quarrel, it's all good, we're all buddies! :lemcat: Hugs

Anyway, I just felt a bit bad that Proxima was enjoying being rulemaster and it ended a bit quickly because my somewhat controversial guessing tactic pretty much gave away the rule. So, I think he should be given the opportunity to play as rulemaster again with the agreement that we won't make those sorts of guesses (at least for this round).

Going forward, we could agree that it's always up to the rulemaster to accept or reject such guesses in their round. That way, we don't have to worry about lots of extra rules and it can just be... whatever the rulemaster is happy to accept.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 04:09:03 AM
Quote from: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 04:05:34 AMGoing forward, we could agree that it's always up to the rulemaster to accept or reject such guesses in their round. That way, we don't have to worry about lots of extra rules and it can just be... whatever the rulemaster is happy to accept.

Yes, the rulemaster being able to veto any guess on an individual basis seems like a good compromise.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 01:07:40 PM
I'm sorry. I didn't want to start an argument or anything.

WillLem, since Silken has passed it up it's your turn.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 02, 2024, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 01:07:40 PMI'm sorry. I didn't want to start an argument or anything.

No problem, it's all good :) it's been highlighted a couple of times recently that the rule master should be able to decline any guess they consider not to be in the spirit of the game, or at least ask the player to revise their guess. Maybe we can proceed with that in mind going forward.

@Simon - if people agree, maybe this could be added to the rules in the OP?

Anyways. New round, then! :lemcat:

Having The Buddha Nature
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 02, 2024, 05:29:35 PM
AKHTBN if each consonant is adjacent to at least one vowel!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 05:40:08 PM
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 02, 2024, 06:10:42 PM
I think WillLem found a good and unintrusive wording: The rule master may decline koans (and, by extension, batch-tests of koans) for being too far away from the spirit of the game.

I'll sleep over it, and then add that to the game rules. Tabletop Zendo has a surprisingly similar clarification: The master may disallow a physical koan from being built if there is not enough space on the table for it.

A guiding light is that the players should be efficient. Tabletop Zendo entices efficiency with its turn order; your opponents get to take a turn every time after you do. If you want to test all 24 single-piece koans (4 colors, 3 sizes, and each either upright or flat), you'll need 24 turns, and the match will be over by then.

The alternative is to embrace early mass-testing. The master should provide not only the 2 starting koans, but also the 260 same-letter koans up to length 10, the remaining 650 two-letter koans xy, all 650 of the form xyyyyyyy for x ≠ y, and the remaining 300 possible koans of consecutive letters, e.g., KLMNOP. It's a different game. I wouldn't mind playing this, but that would need infrastructure. The forum thread itself would be the limitation here!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 02, 2024, 06:18:59 PM
Quote from: Simon on December 02, 2024, 06:10:42 PMThe rule master may decline koans (and, by extension, batch-tests of koans) for being too far away from the spirit of the game.

I'll sleep over it, and then add that to the game rules.

Yes, we'll also likely get a sense of what's generally considered "in spirit" as we play more rounds with different rulemasters.

Quote from: Ramon on December 02, 2024, 05:29:35 PMAKHTBN if each consonant is adjacent to at least one vowel!

Alas, FLY contains no vowels and yet has the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 08:24:57 PM
It's tempting to make the obvious guess, but let's try something less obvious....

A koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains at most two of the letters {A, K, H, T, B, N}.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 02, 2024, 08:55:27 PM
Quote from: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 08:24:57 PMIt's tempting to make the obvious guess, but let's try something less obvious....

A koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains at most two of the letters {A, K, H, T, B, N}.

To choose a single counterexample from that group involving letters already in the white koans, NT does not have the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
NT

Out of interest, what was "the obvious guess" going to be? :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 02, 2024, 09:08:48 PM
AKHTBN iff it's a proper English word and if it's a homophone it's the shortest possible of all the words it could sound like
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 09:18:59 PM
Quote from: WillLem on December 02, 2024, 08:55:27 PMOut of interest, what was "the obvious guess" going to be? :P
"A koan has the Buddha-nature if it does not contain K." Fortunately, your counterexample works equally well to disprove that.

NO
OT
TON
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 02, 2024, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 02, 2024, 09:08:48 PMAKHTBN iff it's a proper English word and if it's a homophone it's the shortest possible of all the words it could sound like

BOW is shorter than BOUGH, has no shorter homophone, is a proper English word, and does not have the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NO
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
BOW
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
NT
OT
TON
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 03, 2024, 01:34:34 AM
FLEA
KOAN
ON
TO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 03, 2024, 02:13:31 AM
WHITEKOAN
BLACKKOAN
AKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFF
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFANDONLYIF
OHNO
HONO
PEAS
OHNOMORELEMMINGS
HONOMORELEMMINGS
ONOMATOPOEIA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 03, 2024, 01:14:45 PM
N
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 03, 2024, 02:44:50 PM
Time for the Koan Formatter!

Having The Buddha Nature:
  FLY
  NO
  NOT
  ON
  TO

Lacking The Buddha Nature:
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFANDONLYIF    KKNOT   OHNO
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFF            KNOT    OHNOMORELEMMINGS
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE               N       ONOMATOPOEIA
  BLACKKOAN                             NKOT    OT
  BOW                                   NOKT    PEAS
  HONO                                  NOTK    TON
  HONOMORELEMMINGS                      NT      WHITEKOAN

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 03, 2024, 02:59:27 PM
You missed FLEA.

COCKROACH
FLEE
SWIM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 04, 2024, 12:50:17 AM
Attached a new Koan formatting tool with full UI, very similar to namida's:

(https://i.imgur.com/euwINWv.png)

The BBCode formatting works nicely but might need tightening up a bit, we'll see how it goes. It also only allows koans of up to 35 characters in length. In most cases, that should be fine. Anything longer than that can be manually added afterwards, if necessary.

Has The Buddha Nature
FLY   
NO     
NOT   
ON     
TO     


Lacks The Buddha Nature
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFANDONLYIF    FLEE                NOKT                PEAS         
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFF            HONO                NOTK                SWIM         
AKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE               HONOMORELEMMINGS    NT                  TON         
BLACKKOAN                             KKNOT               OHNO                WHITEKOAN   
BOW                                   KNOT                OHNOMORELEMMINGS                 
COCKROACH                             N                   ONOMATOPOEIA                     
FLEA                                  NKOT                OT                               
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 04, 2024, 01:14:35 AM
Can you make it so it's not a tab intended table (doesn't display well on mobile) and the new koans are red?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 04, 2024, 02:37:08 AM
FLING
MOON
WAYS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 04, 2024, 03:25:34 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 04, 2024, 01:14:35 AMCan you make it so it's not a tab intended table (doesn't display well on mobile) and the new koans are red?

It isn't tab indented. Whitespace characters are added to some koans to make them fit the column. The previous koan tools (Simon's and namida's) do exactly the same thing, I haven't changed the basic output formatting at all. I could probably harness BBCode's more advanced table formatting to produce a table that might look better on mobile. I'll give that a try tomorrow or later in the week.

One thing I definitely need to do which I forgot is to add an asterisk to newly-added koans. Next version will add this, for sure.

Not sure why they're appearing red for you. On both my Dell laptop and Apple phone they appear white on a dark green background.

Has The Buddha Nature
FLY   
NO     
NOT   
ON     
TO     


Lacks The Buddha Nature
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFANDONLYIF    FLEE                N                   ONOMATOPOEIA   
AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFF           *FLING               NKOT                OT             
AKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE               HONO                NOKT                PEAS           
BLACKKOAN                             HONOMORELEMMINGS    NOTK                SWIM           
BOW                                   KKNOT               NT                  TON             
COCKROACH                             KNOT                OHNO               *WAYS           
FLEA                                 *MOON                OHNOMORELEMMINGS    WHITEKOAN       

Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 04, 2024, 10:55:00 AM
A koan has the Buddha-nature if it's a word contained in the title of a Lemmings level. (Specifically, Amiga/DOS L1; my last guesses were meant to probe whether ONML and other L1 versions were included or not.)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 04, 2024, 11:00:34 AM
Quote from: Proxima on December 04, 2024, 10:55:00 AMA koan has the Buddha-nature if it's a word contained in the title of a Lemmings level. (Specifically, Amiga/DOS L1; my last guesses were meant to probe whether ONML and other L1 versions were included or not.)

You are enlightened! Out of interest, how did you get to the answer from what was there? I was beginning to get worried that the rule might be too difficult and that there weren't enough white koans, but... obviously not!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 04, 2024, 11:31:24 AM
Well, it was easy to notice that all the white koans were English words, especially after your previous round, and FLY stood out from the others; at first I thought it would be a semantic rule, but trying other insects or other movement verbs led nowhere; then I was just looking at it and it clicked  :P  It helped, of course, that "If only they could fly" is one of the more memorable levels and level names from L1.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 05, 2024, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: WillLem on December 04, 2024, 03:25:34 AMNot sure why they're appearing red for you. On both my Dell laptop and Apple phone they appear white on a dark green background.
No, you misunderstood what I mean. I'm suggesting you make the new ones red as it highlights what ones are newer easier than an asterisk. They don't appear red for me at the moment.

Quote from: WillLem on December 04, 2024, 03:25:34 AMIt isn't tab indented. Whitespace characters are added to some koans to make them fit the column. The previous koan tools (Simon's and namida's) do exactly the same thing, I haven't changed the basic output formatting at all. I could probably harness BBCode's more advanced table formatting to produce a table that might look better on mobile. I'll give that a try tomorrow or later in the week.
Oh my mistake. I may have meant a certain thing through my head, and then articulated incorrectly through the English language. What I mean is how the Koan formatter currently shows them not all in one column, this makes them hard to read on mobile.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 03:12:34 AM
Anyway, we should do another round...

White koans:
CITADEL

Black koans:
CASTLE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 05:17:06 AM
CTAEL
CATLE
ADEL

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 05:23:51 AM
Quote from: WillLemThe previous koan tools (Simon's and namida's) do exactly the same thing

Don't put spaces after the final koan of a row. They're nonbreakable inside tt tags.

Break the lines of the table earlier. You don't know how wide people's browser windows are. zendofmt linebreaks at 80 characters, which I like, and nobody has complained yet.

If we keep getting overly long koans that kill the table layout, we can start putting them outside the table. zendofmt has nothing for this yet.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 05:26:40 AM
White koans:
CITADEL

Black koans:
ADEL
CASTLE
CATLE
CTAEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 09, 2024, 11:53:00 AM
CENTURY
CIRCLE
CYCLE
GYM
GIGANTIC
GENERATION
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 02:11:48 PM
White koans:
CITADEL

Black koans:
ADEL
CASTLE
CATLE
CENTURY
CIRCLE
CYCLE
CTAEL
GENERATION
GIGANTIC
GYM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 03:13:25 PM
CITA
CI
CL
LEDATIC

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 06:13:18 PM
White koans:
CITADEL

Black koans:
ADEL       GENERATION
CASTLE     GIGANTIC
CATLE      GYM
CENTURY    LEDATIC
CIRCLE
CI
CITA
CL
CYCLE
CTAEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 06:46:05 PM
C
I
ITADEL
CITADELL
CCITADEL
CITADELCITADEL

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 06:48:00 PM
CASDLE
MNEMONIC
REST

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 07:43:03 PM
White koans:
CITADEL

Black koans:
ADEL       CITADELCITADEL    LEDATIC
C          CITADELL          MNEMONIC
CASDLE     CL                REST
CASTLE     CTAEL
CATLE      CYCLE
CENTURY    GENERATION
CCITADEL   GIGANTIC
CIRCLE     GYM
CI         I
CITA       ITADEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 09, 2024, 09:15:07 PM
AKHTBN iff it is exactly CITADEL.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 09, 2024, 10:19:47 PM
That's correct  :P  Sorry for the troll round; once I had the idea I wanted to go with it to see how things would play out.

Did you feel sure it was right at this point or was this just probing for a more helpful koan?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 10, 2024, 12:13:44 AM
I had given it 70 % to win outright, 20 % to see TOWN or similar sementaic-related white koan (WillLem had prodded in that direction but I had not), and 10 % to see semantically unrelated white koans for an obscure narrow letter-based rule (but it could hardly be anything).

After this many black koans, it's an important guess; others are likely to guess this otherwise.

I'll leave it for somebody else again to master next!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 10, 2024, 12:23:13 AM
Incidentally, in case anyone wondered why I chose CITADEL as the word, WillLem's previous round made me think of the rule "AKHTBN if it's a Repton 3 level password", but I wouldn't expect anyone here to be familiar with those. so I chose just one  :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 08:29:17 AM
I think I would like a try at being rulemaster. After observing the last several rounds played in the last several weeks, I understand how the game works now. Lots of fun, and I still enjoy playing words/letters games even though I'm a math/science person :thumbsup:

White koans:
TELEPHONE

Black koans:
CELLPHONE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 10, 2024, 11:48:36 AM
MOBILEPHONE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 10, 2024, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 08:29:17 AMI still enjoy playing words/letters games even though I'm a math/science person :thumbsup:
I know this is sort of a joke remark, I'd actually say Zendo is a lot more mathematics-like then it is word/letters-like. Zendo is as much like words/letters than Suduko is to do with maths. We could play with numbers, colours, etc. It's more about observing patterns, and having an intuition of what to do, which is used all the time in mathematics e.g. those trigonometry substitution questions.

Quote from: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 08:29:17 AMAfter observing the last several rounds played in the last several weeks, I understand how the game works now
There are also the instructions at the start of the thread, but I don't think those are very good. I just had to watch other people play too to understand.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 10, 2024, 02:28:45 PM
CELL
PHONE
TELE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 10, 2024, 06:41:25 PM
CALL
CITY
CALCULATOR
CIRCULAR
GIANT
GYM
GIRAFFE
GARGANTUAN
GOLF
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 10:59:03 PM
All guesses are black :P

White koans:
  TELEPHONE

Black koans:
* CALCULATOR    * GIANT
* CALL          * GIRAFFE
* CELL          * GOLF
  CELLPHONE     * GYM
* CIRCULAR      * MOBILEPHONE
* CITY          * PHONE
* GARGANTUAN    * TELE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 10, 2024, 10:59:37 PM
CITADEL
TELEPHON
TELEPHONY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 11:06:52 PM
White koans:
  TELEPHONE

Black koans:
  CALCULATOR    GIRAFFE
  CALL          GOLF
  CELL          GYM
  CELLPHONE     MOBILEPHONE
  CIRCULAR      PHONE
* CITADEL       TELE
  CITY        * TELEPHON
  GARGANTUAN  * TELEPHONY
  GIANT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 10, 2024, 11:25:42 PM
Okay then, I guess that a koan has the Buddha-nature if it is TELEPHONE.  8-)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 10, 2024, 11:35:12 PM
Heh, thought I would do the same as you did, eh? Nah, I'm afraid the secret rule is not as simple as just being the string TELEPHONE :P Nice guess, though! ;)

As a counterexample, STARFISH has the Buddha nature too
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 10, 2024, 11:48:14 PM
FISH
STAR
SWORDFISH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 10, 2024, 11:54:02 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 10, 2024, 11:55:01 AMThere are also the instructions at the start of the thread, but I don't think those are very good. I just had to watch other people play too to understand.

It lacks a section on how the round starts, and who is master and who is regular player.

Is the definition of koan problematic: Nonempty finite string over the alphabet A-Z? How to rephrase? Koans are words, but not necessarily correct English words?

I should add examples of koans and of rules.

What else is unclear/bad?

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 12:02:48 AM
White koans:
* STARFISH
  TELEPHONE

Black koans:
  CALCULATOR    GIRAFFE
  CALL          GOLF
  CELL          GYM
  CELLPHONE     MOBILEPHONE
  CIRCULAR      PHONE
  CITADEL     * STAR
  CITY        * SWORDFISH
* FISH          TELE
  GARGANTUAN    TELEPHON
  GIANT         TELEPHONY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 11, 2024, 12:05:30 AM
AKHTBN iff it's a portmanteau of 2 words, and the first letter of the first word (e.g. T for TELE, S for STAR) is alphabetically later than the second word (e.g. P for PHONE, F for FISH). And, the resulting string has to be an existing word in the English language (hence TELEPHONY not having the buddha nature).

EDIT: I posted this just after kaywhyn posted the most recent version of the table, in which SWORDFISH doesn't have the buddha nature and thus disproves this rule guess.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 11, 2024, 12:15:54 AM
TARFISHS
ARFISHST
RFISHSTA
FISHSTAR
ISHSTARF
SHSTARFI
HSTARFIS

ELEPHONET
LEPHONETE
EPHONETEL
PHONETELE
HONETELEP
ONETELEPH
NETELEPHO
ETELEPHON

ARTSFISH
FARTSISH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 12:40:03 AM
White koans:
* ARFISHST   * LEPHONETE
* ARTSFISH   * NETELEPHO
* ELEPHONET  * ONETELEPH
* EPHONETEL  * PHONETELE
* ETELEPHON  * RFISHSTA
* FARTSISH   * SHSTARFI
* FISHSTAR     STARFISH
* HONETELEP  * TARFISHS
* HSTARFIS     TELEPHONE
* ISHSTARF

Black koans:
  CALCULATOR    GIRAFFE
  CALL          GOLF
  CELL          GYM
  CELLPHONE     MOBILEPHONE
  CIRCULAR      PHONE
  CITADEL       STAR
  CITY          SWORDFISH
  FISH          TELE
  GARGANTUAN    TELEPHON
  GIANT         TELEPHONY
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 01:53:48 AM
Don't forget to erase the asterisks -- they are meant to indicate koans that are new in each list compared to the previous one.

STARPHONE
TELEPHONDA
TELEPHONED
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 05:29:10 AM
Thank you kindly. I got the asterisk thing backwards and for some reason thought Simon's tool wasn't working the way it should, when in fact it was :-[ Anyway, fixed all the tables in my posts and so they should be easier to read now in regards to what was added to the table since the post before it :P

For your recent three guesses, TELEPHONDA is white, while STARPHONE and TELEPHONED are both black ;)

White koans:
  ARFISHST     LEPHONETE
  ARTSFISH     NETELEPHO
  ELEPHONET    ONETELEPH
  EPHONETEL    PHONETELE
  ETELEPHON    RFISHSTA
  FARTSISH     SHSTARFI
  FISHSTAR     STARFISH
  HONETELEP    TARFISHS
  HSTARFIS   * TELEPHONDA
  ISHSTARF     TELEPHONE

Black koans:
  CALCULATOR    GARGANTUAN   * STARPHONE
  CALL          GIANT          SWORDFISH
  CELL          GIRAFFE        TELE
  CELLPHONE     GOLF           TELEPHON
  CIRCULAR      GYM          * TELEPHONED
  CITADEL       MOBILEPHONE    TELEPHONY
  CITY          PHONE
  FISH          STAR
 
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 11, 2024, 04:00:45 PM
Quote from: Simon on December 10, 2024, 11:54:02 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 10, 2024, 11:55:01 AMThere are also the instructions at the start of the thread, but I don't think those are very good. I just had to watch other people play too to understand.

It lacks a section on how the round starts, and who is master and who is regular player.

Is the definition of koan problematic: Nonempty finite string over the alphabet A-Z? How to rephrase? Koans are words, but not necessarily correct English words?

I should add examples of koans and of rules.

What else is unclear/bad?

-- Simon

I don't know I feel a bit guilty saying it's bad because you are so nice and do so much for the forum, I'm only saying it because you always say about how you expect people to silenty put up with stuff that annoys them and to not report it.

like for example the post uses "the buddah nature" without defining it so I didn't know it just meant the string passes the rule I thought it was something to do with the Buddhism religion LOL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 04:14:57 PM
I
J
T
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 04:18:57 PM
White koans:
  ARFISHST     LEPHONETE
  ARTSFISH     NETELEPHO
  ELEPHONET    ONETELEPH
  EPHONETEL    PHONETELE
  ETELEPHON    RFISHSTA
  FARTSISH     SHSTARFI
  FISHSTAR     STARFISH
  HONETELEP    TARFISHS
  HSTARFIS     TELEPHONDA
  ISHSTARF     TELEPHONE

Black koans:
  CALCULATOR    GIANT          STARPHONE
  CALL          GIRAFFE        SWORDFISH
  CELL          GOLF         * T
  CELLPHONE     GYM            TELE
  CIRCULAR    * I              TELEPHON
  CITADEL     * J              TELEPHONED
  CITY          MOBILEPHONE    TELEPHONY
  FISH          PHONE
  GARGANTUAN    STAR
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 11, 2024, 04:26:28 PM
FISHSWORD
W
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 05:09:25 PM
A koan has the Buddha-nature if the sum of its alphabetic positions (A=1 B=2 etc) is 100.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 05:09:25 PMA koan has the Buddha-nature if the sum of its alphabetic positions (A=1 B=2 etc) is 100.

Correct! :thumbsup: Partly inspired by your Scrabble rule, but mostly from a Weekly Challenge class/homework assignment I remember back when I was in 6th grade Honors math class, where the challenge was to come up with words so that if you add the values of the position of each of the letters in the English alphabet of the word the sum is 100. I don't remember the exact number we needed to come up with anymore, but I believe to get an A on the assignment, we needed to come up with at least 5 or 7 words that add to 100.

When I was coming up with a white koan for this rule, it made me wish that I still had my list, because if you only allow English words, it's really difficult. Strings that aren't real words are much easier to come up with so they add up to 100. That being said, no single letter, two-letter string, or three-letter string can ever be white under this rule. Only certain 4-letter strings or longer can be white. Similarly, any permutation of a white koan will be white, and same thing with all permutations of a black koan will be black. I thought the rule would be quite clear from all the permutations WillLem listed, but I'm guessing you wanted to make sure of some guesses first before stating the rule.

Anyway, your turn!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 11, 2024, 06:07:32 PM
Well done for your first game clever rule
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 06:11:51 PM
Quote from: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 05:53:17 PMI thought the rule would be quite clear from all the permutations WillLem listed, but I'm guessing you wanted to make sure of some guesses first before stating the rule.

Will's guess revealed that all anagrams had the same status, but there are lots of rule types that fit that, so I put out some feelers in different directions, including replacing "E" with "DA" to see whether sum of alphabetic values was the key. That struck gold, and I noticed that TELEPHONE and STARFISH both summed to 100, but I had to run more tests to see whether the rule was "it has to be 100" or "it has to be square" or "it has to be a multiple of 10".

I'd rather someone else take a turn as I've had quite a few lately.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 11, 2024, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 06:11:51 PMWill's guess revealed that all anagrams had the same status, but there are lots of rule types that fit that, so I put out some feelers in different directions, including replacing "E" with "DA" to see whether sum of alphabetic values was the key. That struck gold, and I noticed that TELEPHONE and STARFISH both summed to 100, but I had to run more tests to see whether the rule was "it has to be 100" or "it has to be square" or "it has to be a multiple of 10".

Yea, fair point with WillLems' anagram guesses satisfying a bunch of other rules besides this one. Also, nice observation with replacing E with DA! ;)

I have another rule, but I'll wait for others to have their turn first :P 
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 11, 2024, 10:35:52 PM
Let's go for a quick one then!

CASHMERE has the buddha nature.
SILK does not have the buddha nature.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 11, 2024, 11:32:10 PM
CASH
MERE
SILKS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 11, 2024, 11:42:21 PM
White koans:
  CASHMERE
* MERE
* SILKS

Black koans:
* CASH
  SILK
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 11, 2024, 11:52:30 PM
AKHTBN iff one of its letters appears at least twice in the full string
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 12:33:15 PM
WOOL does not have the buddha nature.

White koans:
  CASHMERE
  MERE
  SILKS

Black koans:
  CASH
  SILK
* WOOL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 12, 2024, 01:55:51 PM
SILKA
SILKZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 12, 2024, 03:23:07 PM
CASHME
WOOLS
WOOLW
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 03:28:53 PM
White koans:
  CASHMERE
  MERE
  SILKS
* WOOLW

Black koans:
  CASH
* CASHME
  SILK
  WOOL
* WOOLS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 12, 2024, 03:34:03 PM
WOLO
WOOLO
WWOOL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 07:54:13 PM
Slightly disappointed that WOLOLO didn't make it into your guess list!

White koans:
  CASHMERE
  MERE
  SILKS
* WOLO
* WOOLO
  WOOLW

Black koans:
  CASH
  CASHME
  SILK
  WOOL
  WOOLS
* WWOOL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 12, 2024, 09:17:13 PM
AKHTBN iff there exists a letter such that the letter reappears one or more times after its first appearance, and at least one of its reappearances is not immediately next to its very first appearance (but possibly next to other appearances, e.g., AAA will be white).

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 09:40:04 PM
I'm going to give you the enlightenment here, because shortly after the round started I realized that my intended rule could actually be massively simplified to a wholly different wording and it didn't actually produce very interesting white and black koans, making it substantially less fun to master.

I was thinking of: AKHTBN iff it contains a subsequence (minimum length 3) that is a palindrome.
Then too late I realized that is equivalent to something akin to your guess (it is sufficient for a koan to have the pattern ...x...y...x... anywhere in the koan), and while that is an okay rule, it strongly diverges from my original vision. Then I considered adjusting the rules to the effect that the letters of the subsequence each must be the same distance from each other, but that just feels like an arbitrary addition that could get frustrating.

But I did say I just wanted to make a quick one, so I'm not really bummed out :lix-tongue:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 12, 2024, 10:13:10 PM
You can give the black counterexample ABCA.

But I agree that the round will be over quickly even then: If we re-guess with an exclusion for exactly 2 letters sandwiched, you'll give the white counterxample ABBA white. The worst is that we still won't see it, but we'll win by describing 3- and 4-length palindromes in a roundabout way. This is enough because n-palindromes contain an (n − 2)-palindrome.

It would have still taken work to drill through ABCDA, ABCABC, etc. I think somebody will find the description with palindromes before such drilling completes. It's not immediate even if we'll eventually describe it fully with with 3- and 4-palindromes only.

Thanks!

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 12, 2024, 10:19:21 PM
Quote from: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 07:54:13 PMSlightly disappointed that WOLOLO didn't make it into your guess list!

Oh yes! Best video game sound clip ever! :thumbsup: Admittedly, I thought it was YOLOLO but nah, that was me remembering wrong :-[
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 12, 2024, 10:45:33 PM
Quote from: Simon on December 12, 2024, 10:13:10 PMYou can give the black counterexample ABCA.

I don't quite follow. Under my rule, that would still be white (ABA and ACA are both palindromic subsequences).

But I mainly posted to give kaywhyn the green light for the second rule!
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 12, 2024, 10:47:17 PM
Ah, now I understand: Not a substring that is a (3-or-more)-palindrome, but a subsequence. You're allowed to skip the C in ABCA and have the subsequence ABA, which qualifies. Yes, indeed, that allows my easier wording.

And we had already seen that SILKS is white.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 12, 2024, 10:48:52 PM
Since Simon guessed your rule correctly, Ramon, I'll let Simon have his turn first if he likes. Unless he calls open floor again, then I pass it on to Proxima since he guessed mine correctly but decided to pass that time. If Proxima decides to pass again, then and only then I'll be happy to take my turn again so soon :laugh:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 12, 2024, 11:43:26 PM
All right, new round!

White koans:
  TRIFURCATION

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 13, 2024, 01:15:43 AM
FUN
TRICKY
TAXING
MAYHEM
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 01:16:39 AM
White koans:
* FUN
* MAYHEM
  TRIFURCATION

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC
* TAXING
* TRICKY

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 11:04:57 AM
Is the words "new round" in bold a clue?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 11:06:42 AM
SYMMETRIC
TRUNCATION
CONCATENATION
CAT
SIMON
TREE
FRUIT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 11:09:51 AM
No, "new round" is not a clue.

White koans:
* CAT
  FUN
  MAYHEM
* TREE
  TRIFURCATION

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC
* CONCATENATION
* FRUIT
* SIMON
* SYMMETRIC
  TAXING
  TRICKY
* TRUNCATION

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 11:16:25 AM
FUNCTION
AT
ACT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 11:18:28 AM
White koans:
* ACT
* AT
  CAT
  FUN
  MAYHEM
  TREE
  TRIFURCATION

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC
  CONCATENATION
  FRUIT
* FUNCTION
  SIMON
  SYMMETRIC
  TAXING
  TRICKY
  TRUNCATION

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 11:35:20 AM
KYHU
UQFQ
OYUX
ZXSX
OKPI
ZICZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 12:31:03 PM
White koans:
  ACT     * OYUX
  AT        TREE
  CAT       TRIFURCATION
  FUN     * UQFQ
* KYHU    * ZXSX
  MAYHEM

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       SYMMETRIC
  CONCATENATION    TAXING
  FRUIT            TRICKY
  FUNCTION         TRUNCATION
* OKPI           * ZICZ
  SIMON

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:38:59 PM
OXR
DDR
BTU
VOV
QJR
EB
XY
WE
ZF
WD
C
F
G
M
V
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 12:41:35 PM
White koans:
  ACT  * G               UQFQ
  AT     KYHU          * V
* BTU  * M             * VOV
* C      MAYHEM        * WD
  CAT  * OXR           * WE
* DDR    OYUX          * XY
* EB   * QJR           * ZF
* F      TREE            ZXSX
  FUN    TRIFURCATION

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       SYMMETRIC
  CONCATENATION    TAXING
  FRUIT            TRICKY
  FUNCTION         TRUNCATION
  OKPI             ZICZ
  SIMON

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:44:50 PM
OXO
A
E
I
O
U
Z
Y
X
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 12:46:42 PM
White koans:
* A      F         OXR             WD
  ACT    FUN       OYUX            WE
  AT     G         QJR           * X
  BTU  * I         TREE            XY
  C      KYHU      TRIFURCATION  * Y
  CAT    M       * U             * Z
  DDR    MAYHEM    UQFQ            ZF
* E    * O         V               ZXSX
  EB   * OXO       VOV

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       SYMMETRIC
  CONCATENATION    TAXING
  FRUIT            TRICKY
  FUNCTION         TRUNCATION
  OKPI             ZICZ
  SIMON

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:52:34 PM
AKHTBN iff it's 4 or more characters long and is a real word or contains a word inside of it
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:53:47 PM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:52:34 PMAKHTBN iff it's 4 or more characters long and is a real word or contains a word inside of it
I just realized this is an invalid guess due to TREE being white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 12:54:39 PM
Oooh hm maybe it's AKHTBN iff it's 4 or more characters long and is a real word or contains a real  word inside of it but if it's 4 characters long it has to contain a real  word inside of it but it can't be a real word in and of itself if it's 4 characters long to be white
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 01:00:46 PM
I don't know what you mean by "real word". Please define or choose a dictionary.

Regardless of how you want to define "real word", the table breaks your guess: A is not 4 or more characters long, but it's white nonetheless.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 13, 2024, 01:03:11 PM
Not sure I understand Silken's guess. Most of the white koans are less than 4 characters and aren't real words... ???
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 01:09:40 PM
What I hand in mind is I wanted ZIC to be a real word, because it's an oil company. I'll try to reiterate my guess more clearly
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 01:15:59 PM
I made a flowchart in paint to articulate what I meant better.

(https://i.imgur.com/jx35emw.png)

I promise I'm not trying to take the piss by the way, this was just the quickest way to represent what I meant.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 13, 2024, 01:33:31 PM
I still have no idea what a reasonable definition of real words should be.

I assume that the existing MAYHEM (white) will break your guess even after you decide what the definition of real words should be.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 01:37:26 PM
Quote from: Simon on December 13, 2024, 01:33:31 PMI assume that the existing MAYHEM (white) will break your guess even after you decide what the definition of real words should be.
Yes, I just noticed it would be, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time with that guess
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 14, 2024, 05:19:42 AM
Quote from: Silken HealerYes, I just noticed it would be, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time with that guess

No guess is a waste of time as it helps to move towards a solution; all contibutions are welcome and necessary :thumbsup:

I still don't understand your guess. This post is partcularly confusing:

Quote from: Silken HealerAKHTBN iff it's 4 or more characters long and is a real word or contains a word inside of it
Quote from: Silken HealerI just realized this is an invalid guess due to TREE being white

TREE is 4 characters long and is a real word (assuming "real word" is either a word that can be found in any dictionary, or a recognisable acronym/abbreviation), so why would this be an invalid guess? You then said you wanted ZIC to be a real word. OK, but that's in the list of black koans, so it already disproves your guess anyway.

Simon has also added to the confusion somewhat by saying that MAYHEM also disproves the guess because it's a white koan; however, this is also 4+ characters and a real word, so it proves your guess.

So, I must have completely misunderstood your guess! :forehead:
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 05:43:18 AM
Quote from: WillLem on December 14, 2024, 05:19:42 AMsaying that MAYHEM also disproves the guess because it's a white koan; however, this is also 4+ characters and a real word, so it proves your guess.

Correct, I confused the directions in the flowchart. I retract the statement about how MAYHEM is likely to disprove a guess. MAYHEM should be black according to Silken's flowchart.

The existing TRIFURCATION (white) contains CAT. Is that enough for you to counter the guess?

Otherwise, I fall back to: Your guess is unfinished. Define which dictionary(ies) you want to use for "real word". I cannot make counterexamples unless we both agree what exact subset of the koanspace you mean.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 14, 2024, 05:49:01 AM
Quote from: Simon on December 14, 2024, 05:43:18 AMSilken, your guess is unfinished. Define which dictionary(ies) you want to use for "real word". I cannot make counterexamples unless we both agree what exact subset of the koanspace you mean.

It's not so much the lack of definition of "real word" that's confusing, it's more the fact that the guess appears to reflect the polar opposite of what's in the koans table. Perhaps Silken misread the table, and got the white/black koans reversed somehow?

Silken, please define "real word" for Simon, and then confirm that your guess reflects the existing koan table for me! :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 05:55:16 AM
Quote from: Silken Healer on December 13, 2024, 01:37:26 PMsaying that MAYHEM also disproves the guess because it's a white koan; however, this is also 4+ characters and a real word, so it proves your guess.

I went according to his flowchart.

MAYHEM is 5 characters or longer, go right.

MAYHEM contains MAY, which probably qualifies for "real word". Go down, and we reach an end. The flowchart now declares it black, but it's really white.

Should the flowchart have different behavior than his written guess, I'll treat the flowchart as gospel and the written guess as buggy. Should we disagree whether MAY is probable to qualifiy for "real word", I'll defer to: Silken must first define exactly which dictionaries I should use. Then, I'll re-scan the table. Only then, I'll make new counterexamples.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2024, 06:44:55 AM
OK
OKP
OKPO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 06:58:52 AM
White koans:
  A      FUN       OXO             WD
  ACT    G         OXR             WE
  AT     I         OYUX            X
  BTU    KYHU      QJR             XY
  C      M         TREE            Y
  CAT    MAYHEM    TRIFURCATION    Z
  DDR    O         U               ZF
  E    * OK        UQFQ            ZXSX
  EB   * OKP       V
  F    * OKPO      VOV

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       SYMMETRIC
  CONCATENATION    TAXING
  FRUIT            TRICKY
  FUNCTION         TRUNCATION
  OKPI             ZICZ
  SIMON

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2024, 07:19:58 AM
OKOP
OKPIF
OXI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 07:27:04 AM
White koans:
  A      FUN       OKPO            VOV
  ACT    G         OXO             WD
  AT     I         OXR             WE
  BTU    KYHU      OYUX            X
  C      M         QJR             XY
  CAT    MAYHEM    TREE            Y
  DDR    O         TRIFURCATION    Z
  E      OK        U               ZF
  EB   * OKOP      UQFQ            ZXSX
  F      OKP       V

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       SIMON
  CONCATENATION    SYMMETRIC
  FRUIT            TAXING
  FUNCTION         TRICKY
  OKPI             TRUNCATION
* OKPIF            ZICZ
* OXI

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 01:48:44 PM
FURCATION
CATENATION
CATION
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 03:08:47 PM
White koans:
  A      FUN       OKPO            VOV
  ACT    G         OXO             WD
  AT     I         OXR             WE
  BTU    KYHU      OYUX            X
  C      M         QJR             XY
  CAT    MAYHEM    TREE            Y
  DDR    O         TRIFURCATION    Z
  E      OK        U               ZF
  EB     OKOP      UQFQ            ZXSX
  F      OKP       V

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC       OKPIF
* CATENATION       OXI
* CATION           SIMON
  CONCATENATION    SYMMETRIC
  FRUIT            TAXING
  FUNCTION         TRICKY
* FURCATION        TRUNCATION
  OKPI             ZICZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 03:14:10 PM
XURCATION
FXRCATION
FUXCATION
FURXATION
FURCXTION
FURCAXION
FURCATXON
FURCATIXN
FURCATIOX
XATENATION
CXTENATION
CAXENATION
CATXNATION
CATEXATION
CATENXTION
CATENAXION
CATENATXON
CATENATIXN
CATENATIOX
XATION
CXTION
CAXION
CATXON
CATIXN
CATIOX
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2024, 04:57:54 PM
HXI
IXI
QXI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 07:14:36 PM
White koans:
  A             E            M         OYUX            WE
  ACT           EB           MAYHEM    QJR             X
  AT            F            O         TREE            XY
  BTU           FUN          OK        TRIFURCATION    Y
  C           * FURCATXON    OKOP      U               Z
  CAT           G            OKP       UQFQ            ZF
* CATENATXON    I            OKPO      V               ZXSX
* CATXON      * IXI          OXO       VOV
  DDR           KYHU         OXR       WD

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC  * CATXNATION     * FURCATIXN  * QXI
  CATENATION  * CAXENATION     * FURCAXION    SIMON
* CATENATIOX  * CAXION         * FURCXTION    SYMMETRIC
* CATENATIXN    CONCATENATION  * FURXATION    TAXING
* CATENAXION  * CXTENATION     * FUXCATION    TRICKY
* CATENXTION  * CXTION         * FXRCATION    TRUNCATION
* CATEXATION    FRUIT          * HXI        * XATENATION
  CATION        FUNCTION         OKPI       * XATION
* CATIOX        FURCATION        OKPIF      * XURCATION
* CATIXN      * FURCATIOX        OXI          ZICZ

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2024, 07:44:14 PM
HXH
OKI
OKO
QXQ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 07:45:55 PM
White koans:
  A             EB           MAYHEM    QJR             X
  ACT           F            O       * QXQ             XY
  AT            FUN          OK        TREE            Y
  BTU           FURCATXON  * OKO       TRIFURCATION    Z
  C             G            OKOP      U               ZF
  CAT         * HXH          OKP       UQFQ            ZXSX
  CATENATXON    I            OKPO      V
  CATXON        IXI          OXO       VOV
  DDR           KYHU         OXR       WD
  E             M            OYUX      WE

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CATIXN           FURCATION  * OKI          TRUNCATION
  CATENATION    CATXNATION       FURCATIOX    OKPI         XATENATION
  CATENATIOX    CAXENATION       FURCATIXN    OKPIF        XATION
  CATENATIXN    CAXION           FURCAXION    OXI          XURCATION
  CATENAXION    CONCATENATION    FURCXTION    QXI          ZICZ
  CATENXTION    CXTENATION       FURXATION    SIMON
  CATEXATION    CXTION           FUXCATION    SYMMETRIC
  CATION        FRUIT            FXRCATION    TAXING
  CATIOX        FUNCTION         HXI          TRICKY

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 08:08:42 PM
THISRULEISVERYHARD
IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS
HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT
ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 08:10:01 PM
KOK
XQX
XHX
OVO
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 08:15:11 PM
White koans:
  A                       DDR          IXI       OKP     TRIFURCATION  * XQX
  ACT                     E          * KOK       OKPO    U               XY
* ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON    EB           KYHU    * OVO     UQFQ            Y
  AT                      F            M         OXO     V               Z
  BTU                     FUN          MAYHEM    OXR     VOV             ZF
  C                       FURCATXON    O         OYUX    WD              ZXSX
  CAT                     G            OK        QJR     WE
  CATENATXON              HXH          OKO       QXQ     X
  CATXON                  I            OKOP      TREE  * XHX

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CATIXN           FURCATION    OKI          TRUNCATION
  CATENATION    CATXNATION       FURCATIOX    OKPI         XATENATION
  CATENATIOX    CAXENATION       FURCATIXN    OKPIF        XATION
  CATENATIXN    CAXION           FURCAXION    OXI          XURCATION
  CATENAXION    CONCATENATION    FURCXTION    QXI          ZICZ
  CATENXTION    CXTENATION       FURXATION    SIMON
  CATEXATION    CXTION           FUXCATION    SYMMETRIC
  CATION        FRUIT            FXRCATION    TAXING
  CATIOX        FUNCTION         HXI          TRICKY
* HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT
* IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS
* THISRULEISVERYHARD

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 08:18:55 PM
AAA
BBB
CCC
DDD
EEE
FFF
GGG
HHH
III
JJJ
KKK
LLL
MMM
NNN
OOO
PPP
QQQ
RRR
SSS
TTT
UUU
VVV
WWW
XXX
YYY
ZZZ
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 08:43:26 PM
White koans:
  A                       DDR        * III       OKO   * RRR           * WWW
* AAA                     E            IXI       OKOP  * SSS             X
  ACT                     EB         * JJJ       OKP     TREE            XHX
  ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON  * EEE        * KKK       OKPO    TRIFURCATION    XQX
  AT                      F            KOK     * OOO   * TTT           * XXX
* BBB                   * FFF          KYHU      OVO     U               XY
  BTU                     FUN        * LLL       OXO     UQFQ            Y
  C                       FURCATXON    M         OXR   * UUU           * YYY
  CAT                     G            MAYHEM    OYUX    V               Z
  CATENATXON            * GGG        * MMM     * PPP     VOV             ZF
  CATXON                * HHH        * NNN       QJR   * VVV             ZXSX
* CCC                     HXH          O       * QQQ     WD            * ZZZ
* DDD                     I            OK        QXQ     WE

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CONCATENATION    HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT    TRUNCATION
  CATENATION    CXTENATION       HXI                                XATENATION
  CATENATIOX    CXTION           IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS             XATION
  CATENATIXN    FRUIT            OKI                                XURCATION
  CATENAXION    FUNCTION         OKPI                               ZICZ
  CATENXTION    FURCATION        OKPIF
  CATEXATION    FURCATIOX        OXI
  CATION        FURCATIXN        QXI
  CATIOX        FURCAXION        SIMON
  CATIXN        FURCXTION        SYMMETRIC
  CATXNATION    FURXATION        TAXING
  CAXENATION    FUXCATION        THISRULEISVERYHARD
  CAXION        FXRCATION        TRICKY

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 14, 2024, 09:04:24 PM
AA
AAC
CAA
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 09:05:08 PM
temptation
he
which
Occasion
own
learner
chick
of
ever
trouble
imitate
thence
sick
away
is
consequently
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 09:10:51 PM
White koans:
  A           * CHICK           HHH        O       QQQ             WD
* AA          * CONSEQUENTLY    HXH      * OF      QXQ             WE
  AAA           DDD             I          OK      RRR           * WHICH
* AAC           DDR             III        OKO     SSS             WWW
  ACT           E               IXI        OKOP  * THENCE          X
  AT            EB              JJJ        OKP     TREE            XHX
* AWAY          EEE             KKK        OKPO    TRIFURCATION    XQX
  BBB         * EVER            KOK        OOO   * TROUBLE         XXX
  BTU           F               KYHU       OVO     TTT             XY
  C             FFF           * LEARNER  * OWN     U               Y
* CAA           FUN             LLL        OXO     UQFQ            YYY
  CAT           FURCATXON       M          OXR     UUU             Z
  CATENATXON    G               MAYHEM     OYUX    V               ZF
  CATXON        GGG             MMM        PPP     VOV             ZXSX
  CCC         * HE              NNN        QJR     VVV             ZZZ
  ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CATIXN           FURCATION  * IMITATE     SIMON         ZICZ
  CATENATION    CATXNATION       FURCATIOX  * IS          SYMMETRIC
  CATENATIOX    CAXENATION       FURCATIXN  * OCCASION    TAXING
  CATENATIXN    CAXION           FURCAXION    OKI       * TEMPTATION
  CATENAXION    CONCATENATION    FURCXTION    OKPI        TRICKY
  CATENXTION    CXTENATION       FURXATION    OKPIF       TRUNCATION
  CATEXATION    CXTION           FUXCATION    OXI         XATENATION
  CATION        FRUIT            FXRCATION    QXI         XATION
  CATIOX        FUNCTION         HXI        * SICK        XURCATION
  HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT    THISRULEISVERYHARD
  IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 09:12:20 PM
I have a bug in the max width computation. Sorry for overwide output. Fixing.

Fixed.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 09:13:45 PM
Can I have a hint? This is tricky...
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 09:29:41 PM
Proxima and you have progressed well today. If you don't see anything, mull over today's results for a day or two. Or see what Proxima does in the meantime.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 14, 2024, 09:45:27 PM
AXI
BXI
CXI
XXI
YXI
ZXI
EXI
IXI
OXI
UXI
HAI
HBI
HCI
HEI
HII
HOI
HUI
HYI
HZI
HXA
HXB
HXC
HXE
HXI
HXO
HXU
HXX
HXY
HXZ
HXH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 14, 2024, 09:48:33 PM
White koans:
  A               DDD        * HXE        MAYHEM    QJR             WE
  AA              DDR        * HXH        MMM       QQQ             WHICH
  AAA             E          * HXO        NNN       QXQ             WWW
  AAC             EB         * HXU        O         RRR             X
  ACT             EEE        * HXX        OF        SSS             XHX
  AT              EVER       * HXY        OK        THENCE          XQX
  AWAY            F          * HXZ        OKO       TREE            XXX
  BBB             FFF          I          OKOP      TRIFURCATION    XY
  BTU             FUN          III        OKP       TROUBLE         Y
  C               FURCATXON  * IXI        OKPO      TTT             YYY
  CAA             G            JJJ        OOO       U               Z
  CAT             GGG          KKK        OVO       UQFQ            ZF
  CATENATXON      HE           KOK        OWN       UUU             ZXSX
  CATXON          HHH          KYHU       OXO       V               ZZZ
  CCC           * HXA          LEARNER    OXR       VOV
  CHICK         * HXB          LLL        OYUX      VVV
  CONSEQUENTLY  * HXC          M          PPP       WD
  ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CATXNATION       FURCATIXN  * HUI         SICK        * YXI
* AXI           CAXENATION       FURCAXION  * HXI         SIMON         ZICZ
* BXI           CAXION           FURCXTION  * HYI         SYMMETRIC   * ZXI
  CATENATION    CONCATENATION    FURXATION  * HZI         TAXING
  CATENATIOX  * CXI              FUXCATION    IMITATE     TEMPTATION
  CATENATIXN    CXTENATION       FXRCATION    IS          TRICKY
  CATENAXION    CXTION         * HAI          OCCASION    TRUNCATION
  CATENXTION  * EXI            * HBI          OKI       * UXI
  CATEXATION    FRUIT          * HCI          OKPI        XATENATION
  CATION        FUNCTION       * HEI          OKPIF       XATION
  CATIOX        FURCATION      * HII        * OXI         XURCATION
  CATIXN        FURCATIOX      * HOI          QXI       * XXI
  HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT    THISRULEISVERYHARD
  IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 15, 2024, 12:22:24 AM
HI
IHI
II
IIH
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 15, 2024, 12:39:12 AM
White koans:
  A             CHICK           HHH    IXI        OKOP    THENCE          X
  AA            CONSEQUENTLY    HXA    JJJ        OKP     TREE            XHX
  AAA           DDD             HXB    KKK        OKPO    TRIFURCATION    XQX
  AAC           DDR             HXC    KOK        OOO     TROUBLE         XXX
  ACT           E               HXE    KYHU       OVO     TTT             XY
  AT            EB              HXH    LEARNER    OWN     U               Y
  AWAY          EEE             HXO    LLL        OXO     UQFQ            YYY
  BBB           EVER            HXU    M          OXR     UUU             Z
  BTU           F               HXX    MAYHEM     OYUX    V               ZF
  C             FFF             HXY    MMM        PPP     VOV             ZXSX
  CAA           FUN             HXZ    NNN        QJR     VVV             ZZZ
  CAT           FURCATXON       I      O          QQQ     WD
  CATENATXON    G             * IHI    OF         QXQ     WE
  CATXON        GGG           * II     OK         RRR     WHICH
  CCC           HE              III    OKO        SSS     WWW
  ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CAXENATION       FURCXTION    HYI         SYMMETRIC
  AXI           CAXION           FURXATION    HZI         TAXING
  BXI           CONCATENATION    FUXCATION  * IIH         TEMPTATION
  CATENATION    CXI              FXRCATION    IMITATE     TRICKY
  CATENATIOX    CXTENATION       HAI          IS          TRUNCATION
  CATENATIXN    CXTION           HBI          OCCASION    UXI
  CATENAXION    EXI              HCI          OKI         XATENATION
  CATENXTION    FRUIT            HEI          OKPI        XATION
  CATEXATION    FUNCTION       * HI           OKPIF       XURCATION
  CATION        FURCATION        HII          OXI         XXI
  CATIOX        FURCATIOX        HOI          QXI         YXI
  CATIXN        FURCATIXN        HUI          SICK        ZICZ
  CATXNATION    FURCAXION        HXI          SIMON       ZXI
  HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT    THISRULEISVERYHARD
  IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 16, 2024, 12:53:37 PM
Maybe a hint?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2024, 01:40:00 PM
Hint 1: What is chaff and can be ignored? All-chaff koans happen to be white under this secret rule. The list of white koans has many all-chaff koans already; filter them out to see the weightful white koans.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 02:25:12 PM
KNOBLAUCH
IM
TOPF
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2024, 02:29:16 PM
White koans:
  A               DDR          HXO          MAYHEM    QQQ             WHICH
  AA              E            HXU          MMM       QXQ             WWW
  AAA             EB           HXX          NNN       RRR             X
  AAC             EEE          HXY          O         SSS             XHX
  ACT             EVER         HXZ          OF        THENCE          XQX
  AT              F            I            OK      * TOPF            XXX
  AWAY            FFF          IHI          OKO       TREE            XY
  BBB             FUN          II           OKOP      TRIFURCATION    Y
  BTU             FURCATXON    III          OKP       TROUBLE         YYY
  C               G            IXI          OKPO      TTT             Z
  CAA             GGG          JJJ          OOO       U               ZF
  CAT             HE           KKK          OVO       UQFQ            ZXSX
  CATENATXON      HHH        * KNOBLAUCH    OWN       UUU             ZZZ
  CATXON          HXA          KOK          OXO       V
  CCC             HXB          KYHU         OXR       VOV
  CHICK           HXC          LEARNER      OYUX      VVV
  CONSEQUENTLY    HXE          LLL          PPP       WD
  DDD             HXH          M            QJR       WE
  ANOTHERRULEGUESSSOON

Black koans:
  ASYMMETRIC    CAXENATION       FURCXTION    HYI         SIMON         ZXI
  AXI           CAXION           FURXATION    HZI         SYMMETRIC
  BXI           CONCATENATION    FUXCATION    IIH         TAXING
  CATENATION    CXI              FXRCATION  * IM          TEMPTATION
  CATENATIOX    CXTENATION       HAI          IMITATE     TRICKY
  CATENATIXN    CXTION           HBI          IS          TRUNCATION
  CATENAXION    EXI              HCI          OCCASION    UXI
  CATENXTION    FRUIT            HEI          OKI         XATENATION
  CATEXATION    FUNCTION         HI           OKPI        XATION
  CATION        FURCATION        HII          OKPIF       XURCATION
  CATIOX        FURCATIOX        HOI          OXI         XXI
  CATIXN        FURCATIXN        HUI          QXI         YXI
  CATXNATION    FURCAXION        HXI          SICK        ZICZ
  HOPEFULLYIWILLBEABLETOFIGUREOUT    THISRULEISVERYHARD
  IAMTRYINGSOMEMOREKOANS

Hint 1: What is chaff and can be ignored? All-chaff koans happen to be white under this secret rule. The list of white koans has many all-chaff koans already; filter them out to see the weightful white koans.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:11:37 PM
A koan does NOT have the buddha nature if it contains an I and is not palindromic.

If this is the correct rule: Well, it should have been faster to figure it out. The hint was pretty good and "I" (see what "I" did there?) actually like the combination of how the inclusion of a specific letter made it tougher. I'd also pass the next master round on to kaywhyn.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2024, 11:16:01 PM
Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:11:37 PMA koan does NOT have the buddha nature if it contains an I and is not palindromic.

The table refutes this: CHICK contains an I and is not palindromic, therefore it should be black by your guess, yet it is white.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:18:24 PM
I also just realized your starting koan disproves the rule. Can't be far off though, most of the white non-chaff koans fit the bill  :lix-suspicious:

Let's adjust it to: A koan does NOT have the buddha nature if it contains an I and there is a different amount of letters to the left of the leftmost I than to the right of the rightmost I.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 16, 2024, 11:24:06 PM
This is an invalid guess, II is already white on the table
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:26:15 PM
II is white under my rule.

But I have a better formulation: A koan containing an I has the buddha nature if the positions of its "I"s are symmetric within the koan.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 16, 2024, 11:29:50 PM
Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:26:15 PMII is white under my rule.

Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:18:24 PMI also just realized your starting koan disproves the rule. Can't be far off though, most of the white non-chaff koans fit the bill  :lix-suspicious:

Let's adjust it to: A koan does NOT have the buddha nature if it contains an I and there is a different amount of letters to the left of the leftmost I than to the right of the rightmost I.

II

Rightmost I: II

I's to the left: 1
I's to the right: 0

they are different, so it should be black under your rule guess
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:31:06 PM
We count the letters to the left of the leftmost I (which is 0) and we count the letters right of the rightmost I (which is 0)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 16, 2024, 11:31:39 PM
 :-[
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 16, 2024, 11:41:23 PM
Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:26:15 PMBut I have a better formulation: A koan containing an I has the buddha nature if the positions of its "I"s are symmetric within the koan.

You are enlightened!

A koan is white iff it becomes a palindrome after forgetting the differences among the 25 non-I letters.

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 16, 2024, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Simon on December 16, 2024, 11:41:23 PM
Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:26:15 PMBut I have a better formulation: A koan containing an I has the buddha nature if the positions of its "I"s are symmetric within the koan.

You are enlightened!

A koan is white iff it becomes a palindrome after forgetting the differences among the 25 non-I letters.

-- Simon

Quote from: Ramon on December 16, 2024, 11:11:37 PMA koan does NOT have the buddha nature if it contains an I and is not palindromic.

If this is the correct rule: Well, it should have been faster to figure it out. The hint was pretty good and "I" (see what "I" did there?) actually like the combination of how the inclusion of a specific letter made it tougher. I'd also pass the next master round on to kaywhyn.

Congrats, and thank you kindly @Ramon! :thumbsup: Before I take my turn, I'll see if Proxima wants to take his turn first since he previously guessed my rule correctly but decided to pass his turn to be rulemaster. If he still decides he doesn't want to take his turn and says that I can go, then I'll take my turn :)
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 17, 2024, 12:38:23 AM
Don't be silly, it doesn't carry over like that  :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Ramon on December 17, 2024, 09:32:52 AM
Quote from: Simon on December 16, 2024, 11:41:23 PMYou are enlightened!

A koan is white iff it becomes a palindrome after forgetting the differences among the 25 non-I letters.

You provided the perfect black starting koan, the round looped back to it nicely.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 17, 2024, 09:58:38 AM
Quote from: Proxima on December 17, 2024, 12:38:23 AMDon't be silly, it doesn't carry over like that  :P

I hardly think it's silly when I'm being nice and allowing you to have a turn first because you previously decided to pass on being the rulemaster from guessing my rule correctly :P Especially if you have a good rule ;) However, since you're fine with me taking my turn, I'll go ahead and take it, so thanks :)

Anyway, new round!

White koans:
  LIGHT

Black koans:
  BRIGHT
 
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 17, 2024, 10:22:45 AM
RIGHT
BLIGHT
IGHT
LLLLL

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 17, 2024, 10:27:00 AM
White koans:
  LIGHT
* LLLLL
* RIGHT

Black koans:
* BLIGHT
  BRIGHT
* IGHT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 17, 2024, 02:44:17 PM
AKHTBN iff it's first letter is alphabetically later than (or equal to) the letter "L"
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 17, 2024, 04:04:33 PM
Counterexample: PLIGHT. In this case, P comes later than L in the alphabet but PLIGHT is black, not white.

White koans:
  LIGHT
  LLLLL
  RIGHT

Black koans:
  BLIGHT
  BRIGHT
  IGHT
* PLIGHT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 17, 2024, 04:05:06 PM
GHT
HT
T
LIGH
LIG
LI
L
BRIGH
BRIG
BRI
BR
B
BITE
MIGHT
NIGHT
QUITE
FIGHT
WHITE
BRIGHT
FRIGHT
SPITE
FLIGHT
TIGHT
SIGHT
SPRITE
KITE
SLIGHT
MIDNIGHT
IGNITE
ALRIGHT
DESPITE
TONIGHT
INVITE
POLITE
DAYLIGHT
RECITE
SPOTLIGHT
DELIGHT
DYNAMITE
METEORITE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 17, 2024, 04:41:54 PM
White koans:
* ALRIGHT  * HT       RIGHT
* BR       * LI     * SIGHT
* BRI      * LIG    * SPITE
* BRIGH      LIGHT  * TIGHT
* DELIGHT    LLLLL  * TONIGHT
* DESPITE  * MIGHT  * WHITE
* FIGHT    * NIGHT
* GHT      * QUITE

Black koans:
* B         * FRIGHT     * MIDNIGHT
* BITE        IGHT         PLIGHT
  BLIGHT    * IGNITE     * POLITE
* BRIG      * INVITE     * RECITE
  BRIGHT    * KITE       * SLIGHT
* DAYLIGHT  * L          * SPOTLIGHT
* DYNAMITE  * LIGH       * SPRITE
* FLIGHT    * METEORITE  * T


Quote from: Silken Healer on December 17, 2024, 04:05:06 PM...
WHITE
BRIGHT
FRIGHT
...

BRIGHT is an initial black koan, it happened to be in your list of 40 guesses for some reason :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 17, 2024, 04:47:07 PM
Quote from: kaywhyn on December 17, 2024, 04:41:54 PMBRIGHT is an initial black koan, it happened to be in your list of 40 guesses for some reason  :P

Because I just copied it from a list of rhymes for light quickly without checking each one and if there was a duplicate you could just manually not re-add it to the list of koans
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 17, 2024, 04:57:45 PM
AKHTBN iff it's length is a prime number
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 19, 2024, 07:46:13 PM
Bump. kaywhyn, is the above guess correct?
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: kaywhyn on December 20, 2024, 12:59:17 AM
Other than how "it's" should be "its," that is indeed my rule. The slightly different wording from mine doesn't matter, so long as the "string's length is a prime number" or something along that line is included. I'm just picky when it comes to grammar :P
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 01:57:08 AM
I'll give up the next round to anyone else who wants it. I don't care who takes it it's just I'm too shy to play as the rulemaster
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 03:49:32 AM
Okay, I'll do one.

White koans:
FERRET

Black koans:
WEASEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 04:04:06 AM
LEMMING
OTTER
BADGER
MARTEN
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 20, 2024, 04:14:05 AM
FERET
FERAT
MOUSEL

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 04:25:54 AM
MOUSE
SHREW
MOLE
VERRON
CHIPMUNK
SQUIRREL
BEAVER
BAT
HAWK
KIWI
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 04:46:03 AM
White koans:
BADGER      VERRON
BEAVER
CHIPMUNK
FERAT
FERET
FERRET
LEMMING
MARTEN
MOLE
OTTER

Black koans:
BAT
HAWK
KIWI
MOUSE
MOUSEL
SHREW
SQUIRREL
WEASEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 05:00:06 AM
BAT
AT
T
BT
ERAT
RAT
FRAT
FAT
FRT
FEAT
FET
RT
FT
ET
FERT
FRET
ERET
EET
ET
RET
ERT
FEET
ERRET
RRET
FRRET
FRRT
FERRT
ERRT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 05:10:39 AM
Sorry, I'm going to say this is too many. In this case it's not that I think your guess will trivialise the round, just that adding so many to the list at once is not fun and it would be nicer to play in smaller chunks.
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 05:11:37 AM
BAT
AT
T
BT
ERAT
RAT
FRAT
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 05:30:29 AM
Thanks for being understanding  :thumbsup:

White koans:
BADGER      OTTER
BEAVER      VERRON
CHIPMUNK
ERAT
FERAT
FERET
FERRET
LEMMING
MARTEN
MOLE

Black koans:
AT        SQUIRREL
BAT       WEASEL
BT
FRAT
HAWK
KIWI
MOUSE
MOUSEL
RAT
SHREW
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Silken Healer on December 20, 2024, 05:39:50 AM
LEMMINGS
MICE
OTTERS
BADGERS
WEASELS
SQUIRELLS
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 05:45:33 AM
I guess that SQUIRELLS was a typo and you wanted SQUIRRELS, so I've added both.

White koans:
BADGER      MOLE
BEAVER      OTTER
CHIPMUNK    VERRON
ERAT
FERAT
FERET
FERRET
LEMMING
MARTEN
MICE

Black koans:
AT          OTTERS
BADGERS     RAT
BAT         SHREW
BT          SQUIRELLS
FRAT        SQUIRREL
HAWK        SQUIRRELS
KIWI        WEASEL
LEMMINGS    WEASELS
MOUSE
MOUSEL
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 20, 2024, 05:53:36 AM
ART
RATE
TEAR
TAER

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Proxima on December 20, 2024, 05:58:10 AM
White koans:
BADGER      MOLE
BEAVER      OTTER
CHIPMUNK    RATE
ERAT        TAER
FERAT       TEAR
FERET
FERRET
LEMMING
MARTEN
MICE

Black koans:
ART         MOUSEL
AT          OTTERS
BADGERS     RAT
BAT         SHREW
BT          SQUIRELLS
FRAT        SQUIRREL
HAWK        SQUIRRELS
KIWI        WEASEL
LEMMINGS    WEASELS
MOUSE
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: Simon on December 20, 2024, 06:13:00 AM
EAR
ER
EA
EET

-- Simon
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: WillLem on December 20, 2024, 01:07:46 PM
CHIP
MUNK
SBADGER
Title: Re: Zendo, play by forum
Post by: The64Watcher on February 03, 2025, 09:54:03 PM
...CUP
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