Title: Hello
Post by: Proxima on July 10, 2009, 07:09:28 PM
Post by: Proxima on July 10, 2009, 07:09:28 PM
Hi everyone,
Nice to see that the community is still active. I used to be a member of one of the old boards under the username of Ahribar / Nuntar, and I see that a few people are still around from that long ago and might remember me.
I've had a busy couple of years, and still won't have much time to give to Lemmings, but I have now finished my contribution to the next Repton release, so I would like to have a bit more Lemmings in my life again to fill that gap.
Anyone want to fill me in on what's been happening in my absence? There doesn't seem to be a Cheapo topic any more, so what are people using these days? What should I download if I want to get involved with Lemmings again?
And how are you all? I know the community has lost a few members over the years, but does anyone still hear from them or have news on how they are?
Nice to see that the community is still active. I used to be a member of one of the old boards under the username of Ahribar / Nuntar, and I see that a few people are still around from that long ago and might remember me.
I've had a busy couple of years, and still won't have much time to give to Lemmings, but I have now finished my contribution to the next Repton release, so I would like to have a bit more Lemmings in my life again to fill that gap.
Anyone want to fill me in on what's been happening in my absence? There doesn't seem to be a Cheapo topic any more, so what are people using these days? What should I download if I want to get involved with Lemmings again?
And how are you all? I know the community has lost a few members over the years, but does anyone still hear from them or have news on how they are?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 11, 2009, 01:42:32 AM
Post by: Dullstar on July 11, 2009, 01:42:32 AM
I'm sorta new to the community, but welcome back to the forums (even though you probably left the original forums before I joined).
What do we use for lemmings? These days, it's Lemmix or Lemmix all the way for some people. Though cheapo wasn't bad. I think it is still around...
What do we use for lemmings? These days, it's Lemmix or Lemmix all the way for some people. Though cheapo wasn't bad. I think it is still around...
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: ccexplore on July 11, 2009, 01:48:52 AM
Post by: ccexplore on July 11, 2009, 01:48:52 AM
Welcome back!
Yeah, for various reasons, people haven't been making Cheapo levels, and Peter Spada hasn't been heard from in ages, so Cheapo kinda went cold. Unfortunate really, since there are lots of excellent Cheapo levels.
Just so you know, I still have Cheapo and am perfectly happy to use it again for whatever levels you choose to create. In fact, maybe I should upload my copy somewhere so people can still download Cheapo.
The custom Lemmings clone du jour is Lemmix, created by Eric Langedijk. It is essentially a clone of LemEdit/CustLemm, except it runs natively in Windows instead of requiring a DOS emulator like DOSBox. It can be a little bit of a pain to setup though, since you have to download the files from various DOS Lemmings games (eg. CustLemm, etc.) separately. You may be able to find some of those files on Mindless' website and file archive. And it doesn't support custom tilesets, so really, I would much rather you stick with Cheapo at this point. Who knows, you may well single-handedly revive interest in Cheapo again!
Yeah, sadly the members that are gone we haven't heard from. The forums is partly to blame since it went dark for likely nearly an entire year, and there was no good way to contact people once it's finally up and running again. Off top of my head, members who are still around that I know from the old forums:
you, DragonsLover, LemSteven, geoo89, Mr. K, ...that's it I think.
There doesn't seem to be a Cheapo topic any more, so what are people using these days?
Yeah, for various reasons, people haven't been making Cheapo levels, and Peter Spada hasn't been heard from in ages, so Cheapo kinda went cold. Unfortunate really, since there are lots of excellent Cheapo levels.
Quote
What should I download if I want to get involved with Lemmings again?
Just so you know, I still have Cheapo and am perfectly happy to use it again for whatever levels you choose to create. In fact, maybe I should upload my copy somewhere so people can still download Cheapo.
The custom Lemmings clone du jour is Lemmix, created by Eric Langedijk. It is essentially a clone of LemEdit/CustLemm, except it runs natively in Windows instead of requiring a DOS emulator like DOSBox. It can be a little bit of a pain to setup though, since you have to download the files from various DOS Lemmings games (eg. CustLemm, etc.) separately. You may be able to find some of those files on Mindless' website and file archive. And it doesn't support custom tilesets, so really, I would much rather you stick with Cheapo at this point. Who knows, you may well single-handedly revive interest in Cheapo again!
Quote
And how are you all? I know the community has lost a few members over the years, but does anyone still hear from them or have news on how they are?
Yeah, sadly the members that are gone we haven't heard from. The forums is partly to blame since it went dark for likely nearly an entire year, and there was no good way to contact people once it's finally up and running again. Off top of my head, members who are still around that I know from the old forums:
you, DragonsLover, LemSteven, geoo89, Mr. K, ...that's it I think.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Mr. K on July 11, 2009, 02:52:00 AM
Post by: Mr. K on July 11, 2009, 02:52:00 AM
Welcome back.
Y'know, Cheapo was really fun to work with. I'd love to see it used actively again because the higher degree of customization was really killer.
Y'know, Cheapo was really fun to work with. I'd love to see it used actively again because the higher degree of customization was really killer.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 11, 2009, 06:19:09 AM
Post by: Dullstar on July 11, 2009, 06:19:09 AM
Who knows, you may well single-handedly revive interest in Cheapo again!
I'll help (if it works in WINE). And the person who made the hack that uses .mod (wasn't that you, ccexplore, or was it someone else?), upload that. It was AWESOME.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on July 29, 2009, 10:15:22 AM
Post by: namida on July 29, 2009, 10:15:22 AM
I've always preferred cheapo, but it just seems to have no interest anymore. The main reason being the editor - LemEdit is a pain to use on XP, even with DosBox, and Lemmix Editor is plain annoying...
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 29, 2009, 10:22:03 AM
Post by: Dullstar on July 29, 2009, 10:22:03 AM
I don't know if they were there when you originally were, but there are a few others still around from the old forums.
Clam Spammer, me, Jason, ccexplore... there may be others. Of course, this is just pre-forum switch, so...
Clam Spammer, me, Jason, ccexplore... there may be others. Of course, this is just pre-forum switch, so...
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on July 29, 2009, 01:37:12 PM
Post by: namida on July 29, 2009, 01:37:12 PM
Me! No idea what I was known as back then though. I'm the one who made the "Lemmings Plus" series.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 29, 2009, 10:52:05 PM
Post by: Dullstar on July 29, 2009, 10:52:05 PM
Either you had a different name then, or I never saw you around the old forums.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Mr. K on July 30, 2009, 06:51:03 PM
Post by: Mr. K on July 30, 2009, 06:51:03 PM
I remember and really enjoyed Lemmings Plus, but I forget what your old name was as well and I don't seem to have any of my old Cheapo stuff in order to go check. *shrug*
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on July 31, 2009, 07:31:30 AM
Post by: namida on July 31, 2009, 07:31:30 AM
Ji Hoon on the last forums, but I totally forget what I was on all of them before that.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Minim on July 31, 2009, 07:33:20 AM
Post by: Minim on July 31, 2009, 07:33:20 AM
I never heard of "Ji Hoon" partially because he didn't post any levels on the archive. 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on July 31, 2009, 08:17:36 AM
Post by: namida on July 31, 2009, 08:17:36 AM
Hm. I never knew anyone (other than Ahribar) actually played the Lemmings Pluses other than the first one (which looking back now, was kinda lame).
It makes me more want to try and find my disc which has what I've completed of Lemmings Plus 4 on it, as I had some GREAT levels in it...
It makes me more want to try and find my disc which has what I've completed of Lemmings Plus 4 on it, as I had some GREAT levels in it...
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 31, 2009, 07:54:26 PM
Post by: Dullstar on July 31, 2009, 07:54:26 PM
I seem to remember a lemmings plus vaguely.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Minim on July 31, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
Post by: Minim on July 31, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
Where can you find Lemmings Plus?
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on July 31, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
Post by: Dullstar on July 31, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
I have no idea.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 01, 2009, 11:01:52 AM
Post by: namida on August 01, 2009, 11:01:52 AM
They're all level packs for Cheapo.
You can find all my old packs here:
http://lemcrazy370.tripod.com/stuff/level.htm
The only exception is Lemmings Plus 3, which can be found here:
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/lp3full.zip
You *should* be able to use the older style files with LP3 even though it contains new ones. The only difference is the music.
Also note that a file "generic.sty" is missing. Although you'll get the wrong music, you'll be able to play the levels by renaming (or rather, copying, to avoid the original file being missing) the Orig-Columns.sty to generic.sty.
Rather than just being hard the whole way through, it works like the original games, having several difficulty rankings, each one harder than the last. While in LP1, this is quite erratic and there are many harder levels on lower difficulties, LP2 and LP3 are more standardized. That's not to say LP1 doesn't have it's good levels at all.
Some of the best levels IMO:
Lemmings Plus 1:
Return of the T (I consider this the ultimate level of LP1)
Don't Shoot My Lemming
Lemmings Plus 2 (note: a lot of the Lemmings Plus 2 levels are just taken from the Ultimate Challenge packs):
Oblivion (and to a lesser extent, the Oblivion clones, which basically use the same trick but add in other elements)
Death In All Directions
Lemmerixo (I consider this the ultimate level of LP2)
Lemmings Plus 3:
The Final Countdown
The Last Laugh
Lemmings From Beyond The Unknown
Warped Out
To The End! (I consider this the ultimate level of LP3 and possibly the most challenging level I've ever made that isn't in any way "unfair")
For those who've never played Oblivion or an Oblivion-based level, I strongly urge you to give it a go. The trick used to beat it (which is actually a genuine trick, and not some kind of obscure glitch) is a genius one that, at the time, even some of the most experienced players didn't think of trying. I don't think anyone actually ever managed to solve it until I hinted at what the trick was.
You can find all my old packs here:
http://lemcrazy370.tripod.com/stuff/level.htm
The only exception is Lemmings Plus 3, which can be found here:
http://207.58.177.175/~geoo89/lemmings/lp3full.zip
You *should* be able to use the older style files with LP3 even though it contains new ones. The only difference is the music.
Also note that a file "generic.sty" is missing. Although you'll get the wrong music, you'll be able to play the levels by renaming (or rather, copying, to avoid the original file being missing) the Orig-Columns.sty to generic.sty.
Rather than just being hard the whole way through, it works like the original games, having several difficulty rankings, each one harder than the last. While in LP1, this is quite erratic and there are many harder levels on lower difficulties, LP2 and LP3 are more standardized. That's not to say LP1 doesn't have it's good levels at all.
Some of the best levels IMO:
Lemmings Plus 1:
Return of the T (I consider this the ultimate level of LP1)
Don't Shoot My Lemming
Lemmings Plus 2 (note: a lot of the Lemmings Plus 2 levels are just taken from the Ultimate Challenge packs):
Oblivion (and to a lesser extent, the Oblivion clones, which basically use the same trick but add in other elements)
Death In All Directions
Lemmerixo (I consider this the ultimate level of LP2)
Lemmings Plus 3:
The Final Countdown
The Last Laugh
Lemmings From Beyond The Unknown
Warped Out
To The End! (I consider this the ultimate level of LP3 and possibly the most challenging level I've ever made that isn't in any way "unfair")
For those who've never played Oblivion or an Oblivion-based level, I strongly urge you to give it a go. The trick used to beat it (which is actually a genuine trick, and not some kind of obscure glitch) is a genius one that, at the time, even some of the most experienced players didn't think of trying. I don't think anyone actually ever managed to solve it until I hinted at what the trick was.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Proxima on August 01, 2009, 06:25:56 PM
Post by: Proxima on August 01, 2009, 06:25:56 PM
Lemmerixo (I consider this the ultimate level of LP2)
Awesome level, but perhaps not quite "ultimate". For that, try saving 100%. You'll find it's quite a nice challenge with an interesting solution, worthy of being a separate level in itself.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 02, 2009, 02:45:42 AM
Post by: namida on August 02, 2009, 02:45:42 AM
LP2 in general is not very hard.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Proxima on August 02, 2009, 12:32:29 PM
Post by: Proxima on August 02, 2009, 12:32:29 PM
Maybe so, but I'd hoped to provoke more of a reaction from you than that 
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 02, 2009, 03:46:15 PM
Post by: namida on August 02, 2009, 03:46:15 PM
LP1 & 2 are very old now. I don't even remember most of the levels from them, I'd probably get quite stuck if I went through again and played them all. The only hard levels I can still solve are Return of the T, Oblivion and Death in all Directions, probably because they're among my favourite creations (Oblivion for the reasons mentioned before, Return of the T because it was the first hard level I ever made, and Death in all Directions simply because it's fun). (Yep, I can't even remember how to solve Lemmerixo anymore.)
LP3, on the other hand, is still new enough for me to remember how it's done.
I really need to find my backup disc that has the completed parts of LP4 on it. Some of the levels were pure genius. The released demo contains one of the best, as well as the easier version of another (if I can remember how the hard version worked), but that still means a LOT of lost levels, considering I had completed 61 levels (43 of which were unique).
LP3, on the other hand, is still new enough for me to remember how it's done.
I really need to find my backup disc that has the completed parts of LP4 on it. Some of the levels were pure genius. The released demo contains one of the best, as well as the easier version of another (if I can remember how the hard version worked), but that still means a LOT of lost levels, considering I had completed 61 levels (43 of which were unique).
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on August 02, 2009, 06:45:30 PM
Post by: Dullstar on August 02, 2009, 06:45:30 PM
We need screenshots of those levels... then I'd make Lemmings Plus DOS!
What? Cheapo isn't WINE compatible.
What? Cheapo isn't WINE compatible.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Proxima on August 02, 2009, 10:00:24 PM
Post by: Proxima on August 02, 2009, 10:00:24 PM
That would be cool. The only snag is that the screenshots really would have to be taken by the original creator, since in Cheapo once levels are compiled into a set I don't think there's any way to access them in the editor. You could take screenshots in-game but it would take a long time as you'd have to do it one screenful at a time.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 03, 2009, 06:25:46 AM
Post by: namida on August 03, 2009, 06:25:46 AM
The levels are only compiled into one file, not encrypted in any way. I'm very sure they can be extracted.
However, some of the Lemmings Plus levels rely on mechanics exclusive to Cheapo. Out of the levels mentioned before, I can say for sure that at the very least Oblivion and To The End don't work in DOS (although Oblivion could probably be modified to work in DOS while retaining the same trick). Another one of the better (albeit not that hard) ones from Lemmings Plus 3, "The Way Across", also does not work in DOS. Then of course, there's ones that require vertical scrolling, or the ones that use custom graphic sets with object types that don't exist in DOS. And the upside down ones (not that Lemmings Plus made much use of this, the only levels I can think of off the top of my head in the entire LP series that did this are "We All Fall Up" and "We All Fall Up XP")
A DOS version of the Lemmings Plus series, while certianly possible, would require at least some of the levels to be modified or replaced with new ones. If the Custom Lemmix is ever released, I'll definately look at rebuilding the Lemmings Plus series on it. A possible alternative is using the source code to recompile a Lemmings Plus version of it.
EDIT: Indeed, I have managed with little difficulty to extract a level from a compiled set. I'll look into writing an app to automatically decompile a set.
EDIT: To test this in practice, I extracted "To The End!" from Lemmings Plus 3, which is a level I no longer have the source file of. It worked.
But anyway, there's no reason not to do a remake. So, I'm currently setting up a virtual machine running Windows 95, simply because DosBox Lemmix is still too glitchy for my liking and Lemmix editor is weird.
However, some of the Lemmings Plus levels rely on mechanics exclusive to Cheapo. Out of the levels mentioned before, I can say for sure that at the very least Oblivion and To The End don't work in DOS (although Oblivion could probably be modified to work in DOS while retaining the same trick). Another one of the better (albeit not that hard) ones from Lemmings Plus 3, "The Way Across", also does not work in DOS. Then of course, there's ones that require vertical scrolling, or the ones that use custom graphic sets with object types that don't exist in DOS. And the upside down ones (not that Lemmings Plus made much use of this, the only levels I can think of off the top of my head in the entire LP series that did this are "We All Fall Up" and "We All Fall Up XP")
A DOS version of the Lemmings Plus series, while certianly possible, would require at least some of the levels to be modified or replaced with new ones. If the Custom Lemmix is ever released, I'll definately look at rebuilding the Lemmings Plus series on it. A possible alternative is using the source code to recompile a Lemmings Plus version of it.
EDIT: Indeed, I have managed with little difficulty to extract a level from a compiled set. I'll look into writing an app to automatically decompile a set.
EDIT: To test this in practice, I extracted "To The End!" from Lemmings Plus 3, which is a level I no longer have the source file of. It worked.
But anyway, there's no reason not to do a remake. So, I'm currently setting up a virtual machine running Windows 95, simply because DosBox Lemmix is still too glitchy for my liking and Lemmix editor is weird.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 03, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
Post by: namida on August 03, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
Upon further investigation, it seems that To The End would require only very slight, if any, modifications to work in DOS. It's just much harder to execute the solution.
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: Dullstar on August 04, 2009, 01:18:36 AM
Post by: Dullstar on August 04, 2009, 01:18:36 AM
Hmm... I could maybe set up a virtual machine... I don't feel like it though.
With the custom sets, we may be able to cover those (VGASPECx.DAT)
With the custom sets, we may be able to cover those (VGASPECx.DAT)
Title: Re: Hello
Post by: namida on August 04, 2009, 01:30:55 AM
Post by: namida on August 04, 2009, 01:30:55 AM
Hm. In the case of Oblivion, it is indeed that the required graphics are not available in DOS's set, so a VGASPEC will solve it.
However, in the case of "The Way Across", for example, it's a mechanics difference.
However, in the case of "The Way Across", for example, it's a mechanics difference.