Maybe one other thing you can try is to release the updated level as well as keep the original, and allow each contestant to choose either one of the two for round 2. The idea is that the people who don't think it's unfair will hopefully choose the updated version, while those who do will choose the original, and then the overall results would capture that aspect as well.Really good idea, I was compelled to do it like this, but it might be that people who genuinely think that letting me update is unfair might think their viewpoint is unpopular and then go for version 2 instead.
author | name | final version | later versions |
Gronkling | The Isle of Skye | 8 here | - |
Crane | Prize Catch | 7 here | - |
geoo | Stroke at Retirement Age | 2 here | - |
Akseli | Feel the Pressure | 2 here | - |
Steve | The "Hole in the Head" Gang | 5 here | - |
Clam | Evacuating a Retirement Home | 5 here | - |
Pooty | A sea of purest green | 3 here | - |
möbius | Tres Hombres | 3 here | - |
Proxima | Brute Fours | 2 here | - |
Aah, screw it! I'm sorry, I can't fix it - the level's completely broken. I've failed.Couldn't you just fix the backroute by making that pillar a little thicker, or would that break your intended solution?
Also, @ccx and Akseli: I get the following error when loading your replays, and I can't watch them. Note that it's not the error you get when you play in the wrong mode (that one is "invalid replay header different mechanics"). Any idea what's going on here? I notice you both used speedyshare whereas the other senders didn't, could that be corrupting the file somehow?
In the end I decided to take the nuclear option to avoid winning the Brickout Memorial Trophy
Note to Pooty: Just in case you haven't noticed, many of your OWW trigger areas don't work; you can turn on the trigger area viewer in Lemmix to see them. Only trigger areas for the first 16 objects will work. You could move the hatch further to the back in the object list, as well as some of the water at the bottom (one bit of water actually prevented another backroute of mine).
wow, all of these levels look amazing!
Here's my entry (attached). I may have borrowed the theme from geoo - there aren't points for originality, are there?
wow, all of these levels look amazing!Hey möbius, are you going to join the level solving, or even make a late submission for a level?
is it a total coincidence that clam and geoo made a level with retirement in the title
don't feel discouraged Crane, your level looks great! It's generally more difficult to see backroutes in your own level because you have your own solution fore front in your mind.
This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny )That said, I definitely find that there is room for different kind of levels by difficulty also. I guess it would appeal a wider audience, if all levels won't be very hard. And I think the affect to the success of the author who makes an easy level for the contest is very little. I'd encourage everyone to join this kind of contest although one doesn't like to create hard levels. In my opinion, the difficulty really doesn't matter! The more of variety of different levels, authors, difficulties, everything, the better.
This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny )Yeah, like Akseli said, you don't have to make a super hard level. Having some variety is nice, and you can still score in the other two categories.
I've really been thinking what I want to do with my level! At first I thought that I like to see everyone's solution for my level, and I didn't mind backroutes. Proxima found an awesome solution which I like, geoo's one were against the idea of my level and Pooty backrouted it in the same way I did after I submitted my level. I haven't got Clam's replay to work yet. So, I'd say that geoo and Pooty have backrouted my level so far, but I'm happy to see that there aren't fatal backroutes at all! And I really would appreciate the feedback related to my level from you, because I haven't done levels before. Anyway, I guess I'm still going to upload a second version after a while.When I first saw your level, it looked to me like one that has probably a bunch of possible solutions, but when I tried, it wasn't easy to come up with one. I just brute-forced my way through the level with that glitch, and I hadn't looked for alternative solutions yet because I thought you'd fix this. I just had another glance now, and I found a solution that only uses 4 skills (see PM).
It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!
I don't usually like bumpy terrain (especially if I have to solve a level), but bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know. Among the styles with bumpy terrain, rock is definitely my favourite.
are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions? )
geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)
By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?
are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions? )As Proxima said, no. It is in your interest to fix all backroutes as soon as possible, as in the unofficial scoring category there will be another levelpack consisting of the 'final' version of each level (which will be the latest version of your level publicly posted before Tuesday Mar 5th at noon UTC), which everyone has to solve (and gets a point for solving).
geoo, I'd like to have some clarification on the rule that late entries lose one point in each category. Presumably this only applies to the categories in which the level itself scores points, and not to the author's points for number of levels solved? It seems unfair that I'd get fewer points if I submit a late entry than if I submit no entry at all.That's a good point. I want to give a penalty for late submissions, but I want to encourage people to submit their levels late rather than just playing along, so I'll do away with the penalty for the main category. So you'll only lose one point in the fun and the looks category.
(I am indeed hoping to submit a late entry... it's just very difficult to find time at the moment.)
geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.You should use the Custom Lemmings viewer style in Lemmix. CustLemm is basically Original and ONML mashed together, where the ONML styles have been reindexed to use the number 5-8 (and the original levels use 0-4). If you have an issue opening my level, then you should actually have the same issue with Steve's and Akseli's levels. Tell me if you need a copy of CustLemm so you can get the Custom Lemmings viewer style to work in Lemmix.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)
By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?
What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?
When I first saw your level, it looked to me like one that has probably a bunch of possible solutions, but when I tried, it wasn't easy to come up with one. I just brute-forced my way through the level with that glitch, and I hadn't looked for alternative solutions yet because I thought you'd fix this. I just had another glance now, and I found a solution that only uses 4 skills (see PM).Thanks! I built my level around a certain trick. But I like some alternate solutions which Proxima and Clam have found so far, and I really like that my level has multiple solutions, which are interesting enough and not too easy.
It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!
What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?
bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know.I agree. Terrain in tilesets like dirt, rock and snow can hide features in a different way than straight pieces, which is a clear strength of bumpy terrain tilesets compared to those with mostly straight pieces. Möbius' favourite example would be here tseug's "Oh No! Not Again!".
By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?It has to be geoo's Stroke at Retirement Age. Even the first version with the backroute was tough to pull of, and the whole level seems to manage in hiding nearly every aspect of the solution.
I've received now 7 replays from people and they're all different and interesting! I'm happy that nobody has found a solution which saves extra lemming(s). One of those replays is the intended solution.But now that version 2 is out, I've found a solution saving one more than required (based on what you say is your intended route). So you might just ramp up the requirement in the end.
I've now decided on how I'm going to fix my backroute problem. Here you go.
Edit: Akseli and geoo have now solved this level in a way that I'm happy with.
Edit 2: That said, in the spirit of the backroute fixing jam, and because I seem to be a horrible person, I'm going to attempt to force the correct solution. lyygak scores a v1 backroute, geoo and Akseli score a v2 backroute.
I don't understand this, I have 2 solutions that both work on v2 (one of them is the intended one you told me).
So shouldn't that be v2 for me and v1 for geoo&Akseli? (Just tried some levels for fun, I'm not really in this contest).
I don't understand this, I have 2 solutions that both work on v2 (one of them is the intended one you told me).
So shouldn't that be v2 for me and v1 for geoo&Akseli? (Just tried some levels for fun, I'm not really in this contest).
The v number represents which version of the level you found the backroute in. By declaring later that your alternative route is now a backroute, I retroactively awarded you a v1 backroute (since you sent me your solution before v2 was released), and geoo and Akseli a v2. What I probably should have done is award you a v1 and v2, since I hadn't fixed your backroute.
I have a level
I’ve waited until everyone got a solution in to make changes so I wouldn’t have to make so many updates.
There are two intended solutions. Some have found one, so far nobody’s found the other (apparently harder one). In case anybody’s interested “version 4” prevents the first one (allowing only one (you know 'hopefully' allowing only one).
I personally like the decoration the way it is in version 3 currently.
geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version )
geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version )
So to confirm, it is on purpose that the left entrance is actually two entrance objects offset by just one pixel?
So far, Gronkling has the intended solution to my v.2. Clam has an alternative solution which I like even more -- fortunately, it also saves more lemmings, so I'm happy for the level to stay as it is now, leaving saving the maximum number as an extra challenge rather than being required.
geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version )
So to confirm, it is on purpose that the left entrance is actually two entrance objects offset by just one pixel?
Yes. Hopefully that works in lemmix because objects are weird and I'm not used to them at all.
is version 2 supposed to say v1 like it does in your post from Feb 27? Just making sure.. I don't think I have the right one. It's looks identical to version 1.
ccexplore backrouted it so now i'm at v7, tied for first in the number of versions.
Not bad. I've managed 75 so farVersion 1 or version 2? In the latter case I'm getting a bit scared.
Getting there in geoo's A REAL BUMMER FOR A level... currently have managed to save 71 out of 76 needed... aargh.Wow, that's pretty impressive. I assume you're still refining the route you described to me? I didn't think it'd be possible to push that route even remotely as far. Perhaps I should come up with a preventive backroute fix right now, just in case it is actually possible to pull this off.
Though apparently my solution is not the intended one...
To potentially complicate your decisions, I will now send you my solution to v5, which is most probably a backroute since it's very tight on time. (Then again, that probably means easy to fix, so maybe not that complicating after all......)
The tiebreaker is that, per my agreement with the backroute goddesses I'd need to add more junk terrain to a v6 if I made it and I don't really feel like it, so it seems laziness may tame the level design demons for now. Unless someone wants to find me a route to force my hand here, I'd not be at all adverse to that...If you add more junk terrain, I might be tempted to give you a point for nice looking level.
Seriously, Akseli wins the award for "haha, this won't be so hard at all! ... wait, nothing I try is working WHY?!" impressions. This is, for me a very good thingThat made me very glad, and I initially wanted that my level would be just like that.
Another thing, if I'll take out all the other solutions, the intended one will be almost obvious.
geoo, I submitted my official solutions for the main category a couple of days ago, take a look at the spam folder possibly if you haven't noticed anything.Yeah, I received them (they didn't end up in the spam folder this time), forgot to reply to you.
Wow, that's pretty impressive. I assume you're still refining the route you described to me? I didn't think it'd be possible to push that route even remotely as far. Perhaps I should come up with a preventive backroute fix right now, just in case it is actually possible to pull this off.
Time 9 minutes must be a hint of something!Not really, the level can be completed within 2 minutes (I think).
try as you might geoo, I don't think you'll convince others to share your hatred of time limits
The exact order in which I solved the final-version levels are:
*Clam, *Akseli, Mobius, Crane, Steve, Pooty, Proxima, Gronkling
For least favourite tileset, how about the least favourite of the community as a whole? On current evidence, that would mean a snow-themed contest. (Fewest votes between here and here. I know, not favourite != least favourite, but still)