There seems to be a one-way wall mistake in Taxing 19 underneath the vertical line of steel.
Also, I don't think that bone with the small gap on the left of Tricky 14 is a mistake; that small gap in the repeat Taxing 22 is covered.Not a mistake; as I said, I can almost guarantee there'll be no terrain mistakes. However, unless I'm recalling wrong (or Copycat functioned differently from Cheapo in this regard, which is unlikely but definitely not impossible), in genuine Copycat Lemmings, lemmings can't pass through those diagonal corner-gaps.
In Mayhem 5, shouldn't the lemmings come out facing left on the left trapdoor? I'm not sure because I haven't really played the Copycat version of this level.I'll check what happens on the authentic version.
Tricky 27 and Mayhem 13 have fake steel, but I'm not sure if Autosteel covered those fake areas.
(http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/Lemming%20Cheapoman.png)
Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the efforts.
-- Simon
However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.
Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?
The cause of this is basically that, I assumed that they'd be listed in the XML file as "RightArrows" since one-way-lefts are "LeftArrows", but they're actually listed as "RightArrow" (no S on the end). Thus, the convertor didn't recognize them at all. I'll upload another update soon - might just give it a bit longer to see if any other issues surface first.
Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?
Everything was guaranteed unoriginal! Those images are from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Why_Does_the_Sun_Shine%3F_(The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas)&_%28The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas%29= (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Why_Does_the_Sun_Shine%3F_(The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas)&_%28The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas%29=)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Oso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Oso)
Also, in Cheapo, I think there was one with a lemming's head on a human body. Where did that come from?
It's literally a one-character change in the source code of my convertor to make it look for "RightArrow" instead, so it's no huge deal. However, it might be beneficial if anyone else wants to make use of the extracted files and doesn't expect that abnormality. Just let me know either way.
As for the styles, rather than ask you to make sure whatever info I decide would be handy is present, I'm going to make LemSet automatically generate the required information when it runs (some of it might actually be easier to make NeoLemmix use directly, rather than apply at conversion-time, even). So, don't worry too much about that either. The biggest thing is the screen start Y position, since there's no real way around that. :P
Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this. :)
I'll check out the other ones soon; as for Fun 27, I'm not sure whether this is what Essman intended, but it's definitely the same in the authentic version of Copycat Lemmings.
One other thing - did you ever have a proper logo for Copycat Lemmings? Just thinking that if you do, I could put that into the title screen, instead of the crudely-drawn one that's there at the moment. :P Obviously it's not a huge deal if you don't.
Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this. :)
Hm, they don't seem to work and still play the Amiga musics.
I downloaded those from the NeoLemmix website.
One mechanics difference that might actually come up is with the diagonally-adjacent pixels thing. In Lemmix and NeoLemmix at least, a lemming could slip through a gap like this (with X representing where there's a pixel of terrain):
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.
Assuming all traps worked in the original version and no errors anywhere along the conversion process whether in Essman's tool or my own (I'll check on all of these), this would suggest Cheapo may have been checking more than one pixel for trigger areas...
Uploaded attempt 6. This reverts the conversion of trap trigger areas to the way it was handled in the older versions (ie: same trigger area but moved down one pixel, to account for the difference in where Cheapo checks for trigger areas vs where NeoLemmix checks for them), with a manual tweak to the bear trap in the dirt style as this seems to have a difference between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo. There's also a tweak to Fun 12 to set the bear trap there to No Overwrite just as it was in Copycat Lemmings; this is again a Copycat/Cheapo difference.
That being said, if there's any other differences you know of off-hand that may affect the levels significantly, let me know so I can account for them sooner rather than later. :)
I'm not looking forward to getting the editor up to scratch for this, though... it'll need a major overhaul in some regards, but on the other hand, these things were long overdue even without taking Cheapo into account anyway.
Could someone please check whether Mayhem 25 "Opposable Lemming" is solvable in the NeoLemmix version.
Everything else works perfectly fine now (using V6).
I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings
We had a recent discussion about the possibility of new clones (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2032.0), and the general consensus was summed up nicely by an XKCD comic about standards... still, if you can see a space that no existing clone fills (nor is willing to fill) it may be worthwile. :) (it also has to be considered that this topic involved someone saying "hey, I have these wonderful ideas, you should all make them", not "I'm going to make this...", so there is that difference)
But whether it's on a new engine, or a currently-existing one, I'd definitely love to see more levels from you! :)
Copycat versions of ONML tilesets maybe?I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings
Well... maybe. I sure hope so. After all these years I haven't lost interest in lemmings (although I don't play much anymore, mostly read and watch videos) and I haven't lost interest in writing a new better clone game. It would take a while, but maybe.. :)
Cheapo includes the ONML tilesets, but unlike the Orig ones, they're not remade, they're just copied straight from ONML.
When was this pack released for cheapo in the first place?
Thanks for this playing experience, guys! :)
- Though at least in the last rating I pondered in almost every level if I backrouted it in some way because of saving lots of spare skills and lemmings. Otherwise difficulty curve was pretty nice through the game.
Mayhem 25, I can only assume that some mechanics difference between Cheapo and NeoLemmix (most likely relating to builders) makes this level much harder in NeoLemmix than it originally was. I'd try it out on genuine Copycat Lemmings if my computer didn't run it really slow...
Also, I believe the fall distance before splatting is much larger than it usually is in NL? Probably that's the way it is in Cheapo, but I don't know for sure since I have never played or tried Cheapo.
This is for NL v1.43, and AFAIK this pack cannot be converted to New Formats for technical reasons, mostly owing to how this started off as a Cheapo pack.
That aside, there is also another minor difference: Lemmings will step up, rather than fall through, a "checkerboard" arrangement of solid and nonsolid pixels. This is also how Copycat / Cheapo behaved, and some levels rely on this.
This is for NL v1.43, and AFAIK this pack cannot be converted to New Formats for technical reasons, mostly owing to how this started off as a Cheapo pack.
It can; it would just be a lot of work, and no-one has stepped up to do the work yet. As you noted, the fall distance is higher in Cheapo (as well as other game-mechanics differences), and older versions of NL had a "Cheapo mode" to support Cheapo physics in levels directly converted from Cheapo. Dropping the support for those physics means that every level would have to be edited by hand so it still works in NL physics (and, if possible, so that backroutes that were intentionally prevented are still impossible).
I would be quite happy to do the work myself if no-one else steps up, but it would come behind a lot of other priorities (Redux, NL conversions of the original games, my own packs, and conversions I am working on of other old content).
Dropping the support for those physics means that every level would have to be edited by hand so it still works in NL physics (and, if possible, so that backroutes that were intentionally prevented are still impossible).
I don't get the point of Taxing 5 - More armatage shanks, the repeat of Tricky 16 - Armatage shanks, since the solutions are exactly the same.
Thanks for the review and level replays kaywhyn! I figured out what to download and how to watch your replays.
The two Armatage Shanks levels were more difficult when the bombers had to count down from 5. The second copy probably required perfect timing, but now with instant explosions it's much easier.
Wow, so nice to hear from the author of his pack that originally started from Cheapo. It's like I came back to play this pack that's now available for NL at just the right time and you happened along to see that someone recently played your pack. You should definitely feel honored that your pack continues to live on due to how it got converted to NL. This honor goes to namida for converting the pack and making it playable in very old formats NL.
I myself am glad this pack is available for NL, as I absolutely agree that this pack of yours is very high quality due to the many awesome levels and definitely deserves to be made playable in more modern engines. Most importantly, it's a very approachable pack for many since it stays quite easy throughout, even in the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. I definitely felt no real challenge until late into the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. That's not a bad thing at all. I love packs of any difficulty.
Since this was also brought up in recent discussions, do you have any plans to fix up the pack, or at least convert and make it available for the most recent New Formats NL? Seems like plenty of people here would love to see the pack playable in much more modern NL versions, as the one the pack is available and playable on is extremely outdated and no longer has any support in terms of fixing up bugs.
No plans, but if I had the time I'd choose to recreate/redesign all of the old Copycat levels using the standard graphic styles. Basically start each level from scratch and keep a similar solution, or rework it as necessary. Just have to learn the new level editor and take it slow (if I find some time...)