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Other Lemmings Projects => Levels for other engines => Topic started by: namida on August 22, 2019, 09:13:43 PM

Title: [Loap / Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.05 update]
Post by: namida on August 22, 2019, 09:13:43 PM
Back in 1995, Lemmings 3D was released. I don't recall for sure exactly when I got it myself - but I absolutely loved it. Within weeks of discovering LemEdit, I was constantly searching the internet for any signs of a level editor - but none existed. This was something that stuck with me though - I always wanted to create my own Lemmings 3D level pack.

The first sign of hope came a few years back, when Pooty documented the level format and released a custom level he'd created. Unfortunately, that was as far as it went - no editor arose as a result of this, nor did any further custom content. At the time, I wouldn't've had any chance of making a decent level editor myself - I could have made sense of the format, sure, but I wouldn't've been able to actually do anything useful with it.

But, since then, I've gotten much better. And earlier this year, I decided - since no one else was making an L3D editor, it was time for me to do it. Thus, L3DEdit (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4274.0) was born. Of course, it's not much use having an editor if I'm not going to do anything with it. At first, I just created a couple of odd levels, but I quickly decided - nope, I'm making a whole pack.

And so here we have it. The latest entry in the Lemmings Plus series, and the first entry since the release of NeoLemmix that's been on any engine other than NeoLemmix; introducing Lemmings Plus 3D. A pack of 80 new levels for 3D Lemmings.

Since there's only so much that's known about L3D at this stage, and even less that's editable, I decided not to go to my usual extent of reskinning the whole game, etc. The ranks are still "Fun, Tricky, Taxing, Mayhem". There's very little in the way of custom graphics - though there is one thing in there. For the most part, this is really just a level pack, not a full-blown content pack.

Download links:
Loap version: https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?program=54 (Always links to latest version)
DOS L3D version: https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?id=398 (Permalink to V1.03, the last version for DOS L3D)

To set up this pack for Loap (recommended):
1. Get Loap (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5907.0)
2. Download the pack above and extract it to Loap's "data" folder.

To set up this pack for DOS L3D:
1. Get a working copy of Lemmings 3D (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4289.0)
2. If you aren't using the pre-patched downloads from the above topics, use L3DUtils (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4273.0) to apply the music patch. You can skip this step if you're using CD audio music, but it should be applied if you're using soundcard or MIDI music. (My recommendation: MIDI + an AWE32 soundfont.)
3. Copy the unique graphic files from Lemmings 3D Winterland, into Lemmings 3D's "GFX" folder. You can download them here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4274.msg75949#msg75949
4. Download the pack above and extract it to the base L3D folder.
5. Optionally, use L3DUtils' "Unlock All Levels" button to create a save file with all levels unlocked.

All levels in Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem will be replaced with the Lemmings Plus 3D levels. Practice levels are not affected and will remain unchanged.

The difficulty varies throughout the pack, and I've gone for a "something for everyone" approach here. Fun consists mostly of fairly-easy 5-of-everything levels (though these do get harder as you get further into Fun). Tricky contains puzzles similar in difficulty to the first half of the official game, while Taxing contains puzzles similar in difficulty to the second half. And Mayhem goes fully brutal, delivering challenges harder than anything the official levels throw at you.

Similarly, the "something for everyone" approach does mean there's a couple of levels that may not be the most popular by modern standards. It comes down to "some people do enjoy these levels", and that I remember enjoying them back when I first played, even if I wouldn't now. These definitely will not come anywhere close to being every level in the pack - there's maybe five or six levels in the whole pack that fall under this.

If you'd like to share your replays, you can use L3DUtils (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4273.0) to save them (as long as you're running L3D via DOSBox in Windows, that is). I encourage you to share your replays, especially if you're not sure if a solution was intended.

Intended solutions for the DOS version are available either as Youtube videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWvcY0oGEFyAqIY6HWJ6NunGfl4PiUjM
And some challenge solutions here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWvcY0oGEFxGOjtxHGyCWeF5N026amzd
Or as L3DR files (use L3DUtils to load these in-game): https://www.neolemmix.com/replay/LP3D_1.02_Replays.zip

Intended solutions for the Loap version are available as LPRP files: https://www.neolemmix.com/replay/LP3D_Loap_Replays.zip (made using Loap 0.0.26.0 and LP3D V1.05)

To confirm the music is correctly patched:
Note that these notes assume soundcard audio. If you're using CD audio, then the levels specified as "should be a remix of", are instead "should be the same as". Do both tests, together they also rule out a common mistake when appying the patch.
- Fun 9 "Spacewalkers" should have a remix of the music in Fun 7 "Star Wars"; while Fun 12 "The Armageddon Machine" should have a completely different music.
- Fun 6 "Indoor Maze" should have a remix of the music in Fun 2 "Security Walls"; while Fun 15 "The Mansion" should have a completely different music.

Huge thanks to:
- Pooty, for his work on figuring out the L3D formats
- Pooty (again) and Nessy, for pre-release testing
- Clockwork Games, Psygnosis, etc for Lemmings 3D itself; I know not everyone agrees, but I consider it probably the best game in the Lemmings series outside of the L1-style games
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on August 22, 2019, 09:14:35 PM
Saved lemming records
100% is bolded. Italics means the record is equal to the requirement. These records are based on playing in DOS L3D, and may not hold true if playing in Loap (as some of these rely on glitches that are not present in Loap, or may not work due to slight physics differences).

Fun 1 "Called Back To Duty" - 39/40
Fun 2 "Security Walls" - 40/40
Fun 3 "Lemmings On A Train" - 38/40
Fun 4 "Performance Tower" - 39/40
Fun 5 "The Grand Gallery" - 40/40
Fun 6 "Indoor Maze" - 16/25
Fun 7 "Star Wars" - 38/40
Fun 8 "Where Shall They Rest?" - 78/80
Fun 9 "Spacewalkers" - 34/40
Fun 10 "The Underlems" - 27/30
Fun 11 "Device Upgrade" - 38/40
Fun 12 "The Armageddon Machine" - 40/40
Fun 13 "Resist The Temptation" - 39/40
Fun 14 "Pac-Lems" - 57/60
Fun 15 "The Mansion" - 39/40
Fun 16 "Sea Of Sugar" - 40/40
Fun 17 "Quadcore" - 39/40
Fun 18 "Just Let It Bee" - 38/40
Fun 19 "The Side Act" - 40/40
Fun 20 "Arctic Mission" - 1/1

Total for Fun: 758 / 796 (95.2%)

Tricky 21 "Sputlem IV" - 25/30
Tricky 22 "Redirect Loop" - 20/20
Tricky 23 "Actual Maze" - 37/50
Tricky 24 "Wafer Walkway" - 25/30
Tricky 25 "The Moat" - 41/60
Tricky 26 "Timed Attack" - 10/10
Tricky 27 "Sweetcake" - 16/20
Tricky 28 "Royal Run" - 6/10
Tricky 29 "Infinite Lemming Drive" - 18/20
Tricky 30 "Longboy" - 10/10
Tricky 31 "Deep Dash" - 21/30
Tricky 32 "Guard Wall" - 15/20
Tricky 33 "Obstructed Shot" - 17/30
Tricky 34 "Mysterious Artifacts" - 30/30
Tricky 35 "Blazing The Trail" - 57/60
Tricky 36 "Firewall" - 37/40
Tricky 37 "The Nightman Cometh" - 19/20
Tricky 38 "The Barracks" - 7/10
Tricky 39 "A-maze-ing Grace" - 20/20
Tricky 40 "Data Corruption" - 16/20

Total for Tricky: 447 / 540 (82.8%)

Taxing 41 "The Winding Way" - 17/20
Taxing 42 "The King's Test" - 28/30
Taxing 43 "Space Station" - 14/20
Taxing 44 "The Ancient Lemming Curse" - 34/40
Taxing 45 "Deathspring Tunnel" - 25/30
Taxing 46 "Short 'n Simple" - 8/10
Taxing 47 "Tunnel Warfare" - 57/80
Taxing 48 "Rapid Drive" - 58/80
Taxing 49 "Big Green Birb" - 28/30
Taxing 50 "Longboy (Part 2)" - 7/10
Taxing 51 "Cold Snap" - 9/10
Taxing 52 "The Outpost" - 38/40
Taxing 53 "Complimentary Lemmings" - 28/30
Taxing 54 "The Claw" - 54/60
Taxing 55 "Walk The Plank!" - 3/4
Taxing 56 "Ultimate Lemja Warrior" - 19/20
Taxing 57 "Wafer-Thin" - 27/30
Taxing 58 "Entanglement" - 70/80
Taxing 59 "Area 59" - 66/70
Taxing 60 "Taste Of Nostalgia" - 10/10

Total for Taxing: 599 / 704 (85.1%)

Mayhem 61 "No Spare Soldier" - 20/20
Mayhem 62 "Perfect Show" - 20/20
Mayhem 63 "Die And Let Live" - 27/30
Mayhem 64 "Candy Corner" - 48/50
Mayhem 65 "Steps To Success" - 8/8
Mayhem 66 "Tomb Raider" - 49/80
Mayhem 67 "Flying Sweets" - 46/50
Mayhem 68 "Color Display" - 22/30
Mayhem 69 "Breaking The Routine" - 22/25
Mayhem 70 "Detour Shot" - 18/40
Mayhem 71 "Kingdom Of Chaos" - 5/10
Mayhem 72 "Acrobatics" - 22/30
Mayhem 73 "The Grand Arch" - 46/50
Mayhem 74 "Luck Shot" - 50/80
Mayhem 75 "Aerial Assault" - 66/80
Mayhem 76 "Not Quite The Original Act" - 20/20
Mayhem 77 "Winter Dynasty" - 72/80
Mayhem 78 "Activity Center" - 14/20
Mayhem 79 "Power Distribution" - 79/80
Mayhem 80 "Final Frontier" - 14/20

Total for Mayhem: 668 / 823 (81.2%)

GRAND TOTAL: 2472 / 2872 (86.1%)

Level hints (Tricky onwards). Each level's hint is individually spoiler tagged, but opening this main spoiler tag will reveal level *names*.

PLEASE NOTE: The hint for any given level, may contain spoilers for levels prior to it. In no case will a hint directly spoil a later level - though of course there's always the possibility of the "ah, that hint made me figure out this level, and oooooh, I can use that trick for this other level too" factor.

Tricky 21 "Sputlem IV"
There's a route that takes longer to walk, but uses fewer turners.
Tricky 22 "Redirect Loop"
Before you can permanently break the loop, you need to turn just a few lemmings around.
Tricky 23 "Actual Maze"
This is literally just a big turner maze, nothing special at all.
Tricky 24 "Wafer Walkway"
The solution is exactly what you think; you just need to be very quick with your turner assignments.
Tricky 25 "The Moat"
Observe what happens if you send a climber over the "castle" wall. Virtual lemming him, ideally.
Tricky 26 "Timed Attack"
The deflector block furthest from the exit is the one that never gets bashed.
Tricky 27 "Sweetcake"
Don't forget that you're playing *3D* Lemmings.
Tricky 28 "Royal Run"
Make use of the path looping over itself to delay some lemmings more than others.
Tricky 29 "Infinite Lemming Drive"
Take some time to figure out the overall layout. It's much easier once you've got that figured out.
Tricky 30 "Longboy"
Again, don't forget you're playing 3D Lemmings. This time, that is not due to the 3D aspect, but due to other L3D physics details.
Tricky 31 "Deep Dash"
The biggest key to this level is the timing of when exactly you *contain* the crowd.
Tricky 32 "Guard Wall"
No lemming that contributes to the solution will be saved.
Tricky 33 "Obstructed Shot"
Don't forget that bombers have two uses - removing terrain, or removing lemmings.
Tricky 34 "Mysterious Artifacts"
Think about when exactly a block will be passable, vs climbable, vs non-climable and non-passable. Use these specifics to your advantage.
Tricky 35 "Blazing The Trail"
You'll mostly create a path backwards from near the end.
Tricky 36 "Firewall"
Another case where the key is to remember that even if a level looks 2D, you're still playing *3D* Lemmings.
Tricky 37 "The Nightman Cometh"
You can release him, you just have to be very careful with your basher positioning. If you're close, you'll know what this means.
Tricky 38 "The Barracks"
There's a reason you've got enough climbers for exactly half the lemmings.
Tricky 39 "A-maze-ing Grace"
Very slightly delaying a lemming can make all the difference.
Tricky 40 "Data Corruption"
Yes, lemmings fall through a bridge if you turn on it. Do something to make this not a problem.

Taxing 41 "The Winding Way"
One entrance being in line with the exit is the key here.
Taxing 42 "The King's Test"
The fact that the path loops back and goes past itself again is critical to the solution.
Taxing 43 "Space Station"
The workers and the crowd take completely different paths to the exit.
Taxing 44 "The Ancient Lemming Curse"
Count blocks. Remember that four blocks = splat height.
Taxing 45 "Deathspring Tunnel"
Figure out the shortest possible loop using two turners. Then find a way to break that loop with the remaining skills.
Taxing 46 "Short n Simple"
Ignore the builder.
Taxing 47 "Tunnel Warfare"
Another plain maze, except it's enclosed this time. Map it out if you can.
Taxing 48 "Rapid Drive"
Save the falling-into-water lemmings first, though be aware that part of how you do this will affect saving the main crowd too.
Taxing 49 "Big Green Birb"
If you're failing, it's more likely you need to assign skills quicker / more accurately than it is that you need to improve your approach.
Taxing 50 "Longboy (Part 2)"
Make useful a lemming that's going to die anyway. And the hint from Part 1 is relevant here too, for that matter.
Taxing 51 "Cold Snap"
Think back to how the climber behaved on Tricky 31 "Deep Dash".
Taxing 52 "The Outpost"
Now, think back to how diggers behaved on Tricky 40 "Data Corruption".
Taxing 53 "Complimentary Lemmings"
You will not find a way to destroy the one-way arrows. Find a way to get past them instead.
Taxing 54 "The Claw"
The height difference between the two "fingers" of the claw is key to the solution.
Taxing 55 "Walk The Plank"
There is a significant difference between the fall speed of a faller vs that of a floater.
Taxing 56 "Ultimate Lemja Warrior"
Climber-deflector behaviour is again relevant here. (Although there is an alternate solution that does NOT make use of that, too.)
Taxing 57 "Wafer-Thin"
This is mostly about timing, with a small dose of "and again, don't forget this is 3D Lemmings".
Taxing 58 "Entanglement"
The second bomber needs to be very precise, but you CAN do what you think you need to do - it just needs quite precise assignment.
Taxing 59 "Area 59"
Yes, you need to assign all three climbers before the final deflector block. And yes, you need at least one climber available after that block, too. There's a way to make both of these things happen in the same run.
Taxing 60 "Taste Of Nostalgia"
What does a turner do *other than* deflecting other lemmings?

Mayhem 61 "No Spare Soldier"
Pay close attention to how the "central" area of the level is set up.
Mayhem 62 "Perfect Show"
The level often wraps around on itself; take advantage of these cases.
Mayhem 63 "Die And Let Live"
Ignore the teleporters. They're purely a decoy.
Mayhem 64 "Candy Corner"
Of the 3 lemmings that aren't easily saved, the climber is the one that *can* be saved.
Mayhem 65 "Steps to Success"
It's purely about digger positioning / timing, you don't need to mess with the timing of the floaters.
Mayhem 66 "Tomb Raider"
Don't assume the areas shown by the initial positions of cameras 2, 3 and 4 are all completely identical.
Mayhem 67 "Flying Sweets"
You need two climbers near the end, as well as one earlier. You know how to make this happen by now.
Mayhem 68 "Color Display"
Both entrances' lemmings go into the exit they're initially facing.
Mayhem 69 "Breaking The Routine"
As the hint implies, the path taken is NOT the obvious one.
Mayhem 70 "Detour Shot"
Many skills used serve the purpose of both "get workers where they need to be" and "make a safe path for the crowd" at the same time.
Mayhem 71 "Kingdom of Chaos"
Every floater is saved. Every climber dies.
Mayhem 72 "Acrobatics"
The platform behind the entrance is very important to the solution. In particular, note its position in relation to the exit.
Mayhem 73 "The Grand Arch"
Think back to Tricky 40 "Data Corruption". That'll get you at least part way - assuming you think about the right part of it.
Mayhem 74 "Luck Shot"
Almost all of the skills are decoys, but you'll need to rely on something that isn't a skill.
Mayhem 75 "Aerial Assault"
Around half the bridges built in this level are purely for use by worker lemmings.
Mayhem 76 "Not Quite The Original Act"
There are heaps of different ways to solve this level, although most (if not all) of them once again involve manipulating the distinction between climbable vs unclimable deflector blocks.
Mayhem 77 "Winter Dynasty"
Find somewhere you can set up an infinite loop to contain the crowd.
Mayhem 78 "Activity Center"
You cannot choose which exit to use; one of them is a decoy and while it's reachable for a few lemmings, you won't be solving the level overall via it.
Mayhem 79 "Power Distribution"
Like with "Luck Shot", you need to rely heavily on something that isn't a skill - but a different "something that isn't a skill" this time.
Mayhem 80 "Final Frontier"
The crowd is never contained, just delayed for a very long time.

Help! Most / all of the graphics are just solid black on Taxing 51 and/or Mayhem 77, or on some Egyptian levels!
For Taxing 51 / Mayhem 77: You need to download and install the Lemmings 3D Winterland graphics. These two levels use them. See the setup instructions in the first post above.

For the Pyramid levels: You have a copy of L3D with a corrupt TEXTURE.000 file. You can use L3DUtils to patch it, or get someone with a good copy of the game to send you a fixed version of this file.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on August 26, 2019, 04:11:33 AM
I've set up a playlist for intended solution videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWvcY0oGEFyAqIY6HWJ6NunGfl4PiUjM

I'm still in the process of uploading all the videos (I've got all 80 recorded). EDIT: All 80 uploaded now, though of course some may need to be replaced if later backroute fixes are needed. They've been scheduled so that Fun 1's solution video will release on September 1st, and then one level per day thereafter until all of them are out. I'll most likely post the actual replay files once the videos finish releasing.

Do note that just because your solution doesn't match the video doesn't automatically mean it's a backroute. Some levels are known to have multiple acceptable solutions (eg. "Mysterious Artifacts", "Wafer-Thin"), these videos will generally show the original intended solution. Likewise, if a solution here seems really hard for the position, it may be that that was the original intended solution, but there were easier solutions found that I felt didn't warrant fixing, and the level's position is taking into account those solutions.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on September 04, 2019, 08:55:25 AM
I've now got (initial) saved lemming records for every level, which I've listed in the second post. Feel free to try and beat them. ;) There are a few that I suspect are improveable.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: Pooty on September 10, 2019, 09:57:43 PM
Spacewalkers has been improved to 34/40. I have attached a replay for the solution.

Edit: I've also improved Star Wars to 38/40.
Edit 2: Pac-Lems has been improved to 57/60
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on September 20, 2019, 02:38:11 AM
I've improved Luck Shot (Mayhem 74) to a whopping 48/80 (up from 27/80!!!). The replay would spoil the normal solution to this level as well, which hasn't been revealed yet, so I won't post this replay publicly yet either - but I've sent a copy to the pre-release testers.

I can't rule out for sure that it's possible to save even more than this, though I'm pretty sure I've at least hit the limit of what anything resembling the intended solution can achieve - and I even went to the extent of modifying the replay with a hex editor to see if frame-perfection could squeeze out another lemming (it seems it cannot).

EDIT: Nope. Found a way to improve it further to 50/80.

I suspect at this point, Detour Shot and Aerial Assault are the most likely levels to be possible to squeeze out some more lemmings on, as they're very much the type where how much you save comes down to how optimized your solution is overall rather than finding a specific trick to save more - and these tend to be the levels where I'm not too great at squeezing out every last lemming.

EDIT: This one was more an oversight than an impressive new result as such, but Deathspring Tunnel improved to 25/30.
EDIT: Rapid Drive improved to 58/80.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on October 12, 2019, 08:26:42 PM
Detour Shot improved to 15/40. I suspect it's possible to improve further. So far, this is just a very optimized version of the intended solution.

EDIT: With a bit of clever thinking, I was able to further optimize this to 18/40. Some timing tweaks might be able to squeeze out 19, but I think we're close to the limit here.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on November 09, 2019, 10:58:07 PM
Although the playlist hasn't quite finished releasing yet, I figure it's close enough, and since I'm doing general updates to the Lemmings Plus series at the moment - replay files are now available, see first post.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: kieranmillar on November 10, 2019, 10:47:01 PM
I've started playing through this pack, here's the first video in the series:

https://youtu.be/z-uVn5HVox8
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on November 18, 2019, 09:32:49 PM
V1.01 uploaded.

Has a backroute fix for Taxing 42 "The King's Test". Has visual fixes / improvements to Fun 5 "The Grand Gallery" (this one could also enable some solutions that didn't work before, though should not break any existing solutions), Fun 17 "Quadcore" and Fun 20 "Arctic Mission".

Existing replays should still work on all levels. Download link in first post. Working on updating the Youtube solution videos to reflect these changes.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic
Post by: namida on November 19, 2019, 07:27:20 PM
Here's one that really requires knowing L3D's mechanics (glitches and otherwise) to achieve, including having to deal with an undesirable effect of a glitch at one point too.

Every lemming saved on Fun 19 "The Side Act". ^_^
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on November 19, 2019, 10:01:04 PM
I've made a playlist of videos for challenge solutions. I'll upload more over time, but for now, there's a few of the particularly interesting max-saved solutions from Fun. (I was going to start recording Tricky too, but the only particularly interesting one is on a level that I have a strong suspicion can be improved thanks to a recent glitch discovery.) Specifically so far, it has the 39/40 solutions for "Resist The Temptation" and "Quadcore", and the 40/40 solutions for "The Armageddon Machine", "Sea of Sugar" and "The Side Act". (I figured that 40/40 on "Security Walls" and "The Grand Gallery" are too trivial to be worth uploading.)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWvcY0oGEFxGOjtxHGyCWeF5N026amzd
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on November 27, 2019, 07:18:53 PM
Longboy improved... to 10/10!

EDIT: And as I suspected for a while was possible but wasn't having much luck getting to work - but finally did - Blazing The Trail improved to 57/60.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on December 10, 2019, 10:27:27 PM
The Claw improved to 48/60, not sure how I overlooked this before.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: kieranmillar on January 03, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
I'm going to need to ask for some hints for Taxing 45 "Deathspring Tunnel".

Here's my current thinking, might be useful for providing a hint towards where my thinking is going wrong:
Spoiler

  • Compression at the entrance is not possible, due to the quicksand trap and initial spring, which requires your lemmings to start spread out.
  • There are no deflector blocks in the level. When combined with only 2 turners, there is no way to get past the springs by travelling along a parallel axis. If you turn the lemmings, you must turn them back onto the original path with the other turner.
  • The only way to actually do this would be to build a bridge with a turner at the top, so that you can put another turner underneath the first one to put lemmings back onto the original path. However this is no good because it achieves nothing of value, you can't compress the lemmings together enough by doing this to get enough lemmings past the death springs.
  • The only bashable thing in the level is your own bridge, but this doesn't achieve anything. It would... free a turner? But so what, it and the basher would just die to death springs.
  • The climber is useless because there is nothing to climb towards as the level is mostly just a flat box... except right at the start which has a higher ceiling, but it's still just an empty box. There are some arrows pointing towards the death springs on the wall leading to the tunnel, but this has no gameplay relevance as you can't reach them.
  • The fact that 6 lemmings are allowed to die feels critical to the solution, as though compression to get past the death springs really is the answer. But there's nowhere to set up that level of compression, the springs kill very quickly.

You have only 5 skills: 2 turners, a builder, a basher and a climber. But none of these feel like they actually do anything. You can't turn anywhere useful with only 2 turners. You can't bash anything, and there's nothing to climb to. And the one builder can only get over one of three death springs.
I feel trapped in a logical hole from which there is no escape. I must be missing something, maybe some sort of behaviour of 3D Lemmings that I am not aware of or do not understand.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on January 04, 2020, 12:41:41 AM
Spoiler-tagging my whole response.

Spoiler
QuoteThe only way to actually do this would be to build a bridge with a turner at the top, so that you can put another turner underneath the first one to put lemmings back onto the original path. However this is no good because it achieves nothing of value, you can't compress the lemmings together enough by doing this to get enough lemmings past the death springs.
There is something in this bullet point that you're wrong about. (And as a flow-on thing, it also invalidates some of your assumptions in later points. Everything in the points prior to this one is correct.)

You're completely correct in thinking the climber is worthless. It's there purely as a decoy. Every other skill is used.

If you're still stuck...
Spoiler
What's the shortest possible infinite loop you can set up with two turners? I suspect you'll know "yes, this is definitely the one" right away when you find it, rather than thinking even for a short time "hm, there could maybe still be something shorter".

To clarify: This is that the two turners are used to actually set up the loop; NOT "one is used to set it up and another is used to get the lemmings out".

If you still aren't sure on this, here's one very slight additional hint that might make things "click":

Spoiler
You could set such a loop up on ANY level that gives you two turners, regardless of its layout (aside from some extreme cases like "lemmings are on ice the whole time so you can never use any turners"). Other skills may affect how easily you can get out of such a loop, but two turners is all you ever need to get into one.

"Deathspring Tunnel" is one of those difficulty-spike levels; the next few should be a bit easier. :)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on January 04, 2020, 07:15:25 PM
I've also updated the 2nd post in the topic with hints for all Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem levels. Feel free to refer to it if you get stuck in the future (though you're welcome to ask for more hints if those ones aren't enough).

Please be aware: Opening the hint list will spoil level names (though each level's hint is individuall spoiler tagged). Also, any given level's hint may contain spoilers for earlier levels.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: DireKrow on February 22, 2020, 10:25:07 PM
Been looking forward to this. Lemmings 3D was my first (and only) lemmings game as a kid. Coming back to it has been fun, even if wrangling the camera and relearning the nuances of the mechanics has been difficult.

Finished the Fun difficulty. L3DRs attached.

Level comments:
Spoiler
1. Called Back To Duty - Good first level. Works as a playground to mess around with different skills and refamiliarize oneself with the interface.
2. Security Walls - Decent. No particular comments.
3. Lemmings on a Train - Good. I'm envious of your modeling skills. Turning the water into scrolling terrain is a very nice touch. If I get around to making 3D levels of my own, I think making artistic levels are what I'll struggle to make the most.
4. Performance Tower - Decent. The first level where I felt the camera was particularly annoying. It's hard to assign commands in the spiral of the tower. The devs really should have added a way to pitch the camera up and down. Surprised to see a level with multiple asymmetrical hatches so early - I'd argue it makes it too stressful for a Fun 4.
5. The Grand Gallery - I'd definitely have made the ceiling higher. The terrain makes navigating the camera a pain in the butt in here and virtual lemming doesn't help much, since all you see is a face full of slope for most of it. Was frustrating to play.
6. Indoor Maze - Decent. While not difficult, I like that the shortest path isn't the correct one. I can see someone trying it and then realizing it won't work.
7. Star Wars - Good. Lovely aesthetics. I like that you can choose to make use of the deflector blocks or not. I also like that this is the first space level, but you made it an outdoor level. In the original I think almost all of the space levels with indoor, so this is a nice change of pace.
8. Where Shall They Rest? - Not a fan of hidden exit levels. I also don't like that I had to blindly pray you were nice and put the exit in the middle of an pyramid's axis and on the ground level. I actually tried to do this by going through all the pyramids, found the exit, and had it set up so I'd beat the level... but then timed out because of how much wandering around I had to do. On the restart it was trivial because I could just go straight to the exit.
9. Space Walkers - Good. A simple example of a puzzle that only works in 3D.
10. The Underlems - Good. Much better than Fun 5 in terms of camera. The fact you can only navigate the camera down one of the halls due to the deflector blocks is pretty silly, though. I like the 'pick your poison' aspect.
11. Device Upgrade - Decent. It took me quite a while to find where the exit actually was; is there a way to make it more obvious? While I'm not big on memes, it's cool to see some custom assets! Makes me excited to see if anything will come of it in later levels. If I recall correctly, there's a level in the original that has a very similar layout to this, so it's a nice callback.
12. Armageddon Machine - Good. Modelling work is great. The first level where it took a few tries to figure out a solution, though I did make it a bit harder on myself by trying to avoid virtual lemming. A noticeable jump in difficulty compared to Fun 1-11, in my opinion.
13. Resist the Temptation - Decent. Is the name an intentional reference to the fact that the 'solution' appears to be ignoring all the chocolate bars and just building straight out and back? I actually couldn't figure out a solution that made use of the chocolate, since I always seemed to come up short on turners or builders.
14. Pac-Lems - Great. The aesthetics are outstanding, right down the little things like using teleporters to mimic the wrapping around at the edges and the fact the ghosts kill lemmings. I'm disappointed that more of the level isn't used in the solution. I'm honestly not fussed about environment variety, but it definitely stuck out to me that 7 of the last 8 levels have been Space, Computer (which themselves are similar) or Egyptian levels. I'd probably have spread them out a little more. There's no Medieval or Golf at all in Fun, either.
15. The Mansion - Great. The progression of "oh, I just turn into into the exits... wait... I have no turners?!" to then having to figure out where the deflector blocks are, and finally to figuring out how to actually route them into a solution, was fantastic. The fact it's essentially an artistic level on top of that is even more impressive.
16. Sea of Sugar - Good. A solid obstacle course style level. There's multiple solutions to most problems but I like that nothing feels too trivial.
17. Quadcore - Great. It's again an ideal blend of aesthetic and puzzle design, while also leaving plenty of room for creativity in how you complete the solution. Could be an examplar for how a Fun 5-all-skills level should be in L3D, honestly.
18. Just Let It Bee - Good. The level looks great once again... how are you so good at the artistic levels? I like that the heights of everything are tuned such that you need to interrupt your builders and diggers to avoid fatal falls in a lot of places, escalating on previous puzzles where you were more forgiving in this regard.
19. The Side Act - Great. I had this progression where the level looked super simple, turned out to be a little harder than it looked, then ended up being surprisingly elegant in its solution. Overall an appealing design and puzzle.
20. Arctic Mission - Decent. Memorable level concept. The opening shot where you're stuck but then you see the single lemming walking past is a cool moment. I think it would have been better if it involved a couple of different skills, rather than just 7 builders.

Level rankings (favourite to least favourite):
Spoiler
The Mansion
Quadcore
Pac-Lems
The Side Act
Armageddon Machine
Just Let It Bee
Lemmings on a Train
Sea of Sugar
Star Wars
Space Walkers
Called Back To Duty
The Underlems
Performance Tower
Arctic Mission
Resist the Temptation
Indoor Maze
Security Walls
Device Upgrade
The Grand Gallery
Where Shall They Rest?
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on February 26, 2020, 08:34:40 PM
Just improved Aerial Assault from 59/80 to 66/80 - all turners, blockers and bombers are used, but no other lemmings are lost besides those.

I also uploaded videos for the interesting max-saveds in Mayhem: 46/50 on "Flying Sweets", 18/40 on "Detour Shot", 50/80 on "Luck Shot", 66/80 on "Aerial Assault" and 72/80 on "Winter Dynasty".
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: DireKrow on February 27, 2020, 08:49:58 AM
I finished the Tricky difficulty, so time for more thoughts. L3DRs attatched.

A general comment which applies to all of these is that they're memorable. Even though I played through them over a few days, I had no problem remembering which level was which just from their name. That's a good sign. Overall, I'm thoroughly enjoying this pack so far.

Level Comments:
Spoiler

21. Sputlem IV - Good. This felt like a perfect opener to Tricky, for me: Small numbers of a few different skills, a solution isn't obvious, but also isn't hard to arrive at with a little bit of reasoning.
22. Redirect Loop - Great. Neat little puzzle. I like how you've linked the loop aesthetic with the computer environment and incorporated into a puzzle about breaking out. Cool, creative use of the miner. This was the first time I got stuck for a while on a puzzle in this pack.
23. Actual Maze - Meh. Barely feels like a puzzle, just busywork. Especially when you can shortcut the maze using bombers. Also... it's very easy. I'd actually argue it's easier than the maze level that's already in Fun, Indoor Maze, since at least that one you can run out of turners if you don't take the correct route.
24. Wafer Walkway - Decent. It taught a very important lesson about L3D's mechanics, but it did reinforce to me that I much prefer puzzles that focus on figuring out how to get from A to B, rather than the challenge being in the execution.
25. The Moat - Good. I'm fond of puzzles that exploit flaws in skills. In this case, the fact that what should be a simple gap is anything but... due to the fact that builders can only build up. I enjoyed the way it was ultimately resolved.
26. Timed Attack - Good. Felt smart figuring this one out. Feels unique to me among a lot of the other puzzles so far. A different flavour.
27. Sweetcake - Great. I'm wowed by a puzzle that's just about going around a pole. You present such a simple and easy to grasp problem, subvert the initial expectation (that you "just use turners" to go around it), and then turn it into a clever puzzle that communicates an important lesson. It does pretty much everything you could ask for from a Lemmings puzzle. It reminded me of what I liked about The Mansion - how you've blended natural looking aesthetics with key components of the solution.
28. Royal Run - Good. Not much else to say, I just thought it served its purpose well.
29. Infinite Lemming Drive - Good. Indoor space levels, the ones that are like wandering the corridors of a spaceship, are one of my favourite aesthetics in Lemmings 3D. I look forward to designing something like this myself sometime. I really enjoyed the puzzle of this as well, among the better L3D navigation focused puzzles I've seen. I did feel the environment was... claustrophobic? It wasn't that hard to navigate per se, but it was a bit weird seeing it so full of boxes? It's hard to describe.
30. Longboy - Decent. I got stuck on this for way longer than I should have because I didn't realize you could stand on the hatch. For someone who didn't realize you could do this with springs, realizing that you could approach it from the other side to do what it did was neat.
31. Deep Dash - Good. I was stuck on this for a while... the hard part for me was figuring out exactly how to trap and then release the crowd... but I definitely learnt something from the solution. It was a cool demonstration of implications of 3D on bombers.
32. Guard Wall - Meh. After a couple of moments of thinking, I felt the solution was quite easy to figure out, but annoying to execute. Lots of restarting and shifting when you send climbers so it lined up perfectly. I didn't really find it all that fun.
33. Obstructed Shot - Decent. The set piece of the level makes it memorable: Lemmings being flung into the wall and exploding, which I hadn't seen until now and I don't think it comes up in the original game at all. Aside from that aspect though, it didn't leave much of an impression on me.
34. Mysterious Artifacts - Good. I don't have a ton to say about this one, but I just thought it was a solid puzzle. No complaints.
35. Blazing The Trail - I detailed my harrowing experience on the discord. In the end, it was the hardest level in the rank and took me about 3 hours all up to solve. It feels completely different to every other level in the rank, which is a plus. Another is that you're given immense freedom, so there's probably many solutions, but none of them are trivial. They all require planning and thought. That said, the level just feels... excessive. Actually executing a solution takes a lot of time and effort compared to other levels because it's so big, and if you find out your plan won't work (as it did for me multiple times), redoing it sucks. I appreciate this level, but never want to play it again.
36. Firewall - Great. My favourite level in the rank and contender for my favourite so far. There's a LOT to like here. The fact it looks 2D but has a 3D solution; the solution being super interactive with all of the stray lemmings you need to save; the solution making creative use of the entrance hatch and traps; the fact the splitters are made to look like obstacles to be avoided, but end up being integral to the solution; the fact it almost seems like the 2D route will work, but not quite. So much is cleverly designed. The only downside is that it's a bit dull to look at, basically being a big gray wall with blocky gray platforms.
37. The Nightman Cometh - Good. I enjoyed it, but felt I felt it 'played itself' too much. There wasn't really any tricks, you just assigned a climber and then used skills as there came need to, and it all works out. So, surprisingly straightforward for the end of Tricky. What bumps it up to me though is the aesthetic. For a desert level, this level looks great! One of my favourites visually/conceptually so far. The level name and the use of the weird traps really enhance the puzzle's storytelling.
38. The Barracks - Great. Right on with the barracks aesthetic. Simple idea with a surprisingly simple but clever solution. As with The Mansion and Sweetcake, I like how the solution is innocuously hidden in what seem like decorative aspects of the environment.
39. A-maze-ing Grace - Great. Very satisfying puzzle. I like how it does a lot with very little space. It looks simple, but the solution still makes you feel so clever when you figure it out. I like the realization it creates too, where you THINK you solved it only for it not to quite work out and need the smallest adjustment. It feels tightly designed. The fact Lemmings just walk through the fences is a bit weird, though.
40. Data Corruption - Great. The last few puzzles have were consistently good, and the finale doesn't disappoint. You really nailed the glitchy, corrupted aesthetic. The terrain perfectly rides the line of guiding the player while not making the solution too obvious. Using the last turner as the final builder was a nice touch.

Level rankings (favourite to least):
Spoiler

Firewall
A-maze-ing Grace
Sweetcake
Data Corruption
The Barracks
Redirect Loop
Deep Dash
The Moat
Mysterious Artifacts
Infinite Lemming Drive
Timed Attack
Sputlem IV
The Nightman Cometh
Royal Run
Longboy
Blazing The Trail
Wafer Walkway
Obstructed Shot
Guard Wall
Actual Maze

I'll be busy over the next couple of days, but I look forward to getting started on Taxing soon. Particularly since you've indicated on the discord that it has many of your favourite levels from the entire pack.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: DireKrow on March 03, 2020, 02:33:04 AM
The Claw improved to 50/60.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: namida on March 03, 2020, 07:15:51 PM
Quote from: DireKrow on March 03, 2020, 02:33:04 AM
The Claw improved to 50/60.

And now to 54/60. :)

I think this is the limit. 55/60 would need either an additional climber or an additional basher as far as I can tell. (Or an additional builder, but that's too easy. :P)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.01 update]
Post by: DireKrow on March 10, 2020, 02:58:53 AM
I finished Taxing. Overall, it was the best rank so far. Lots of good puzzles. The pack is really hitting it stride.

Level comments:
Spoiler

41. The Winding Way - Great. Awesome introduction to the ranking. It felt like a step up from Tricky, but it wasn't overwhelming. I like that it served partly as an introduction to "thinking with bombers", which are widely used in the rank.
42. The King's Test - Good. I like the continued demonstration of things bombers can do in 3D that they couldn't in 2D. I feel so clever every time I find a new way to use them.
43. Space Station - Great. While the level doesn't do anything flashy, it's just super, super solid. Looks good, plays good.
44. The Ancient Lemming Curse - Great. Compliments to your ability to clearly communicate what is and isn't diggable and where the exit is, even though it's hidden.
45. Deathspring Tunnel - Decent. I found this very difficult. The relevation and solution was cool, but also a bit... gimmicky?
46. Short n Simple - Decent. Probably the most forgettable level in the rank for me, but it's not a bad level. It's a nice breather after how difficult 45 was. Honestly I felt this could have been in Tricky.
47. Tunnel Warfare - Meh. My least favourite level in the rank, but you probably expected that reaction from me.
48. Rapid Drive - Good. There's a lot of subtle tricks. A pretty interesting outcome.
49. Big Green Birb - Omg! Well... this pretty much has to be my favourite looking level in the rank, right? It's a bird! I'm pretty sure I would have done this myself at some point if you hadn't. The level was pretty good too.
50. Longboy (Part 2) - Good. The fact half of the puzzle is the same as the original is a little odd but I think the new bits of the solution are fun so, I can't complain much.
51. Cold Snap - Great. Much like Space Station, this just felt like a really solid, enjoyable level that manages to be a good puzzle without having any flashy tricks. Though, maybe this is the first time in the pack turning a lemming by building into a ceiling was required?
52. The Outpost - Good. A satisfying continuation of the end section from The Winding Way.
53. Complimentary Lemmings - Great. One of the strongest levels in the rank. The first of two levels that really show off all the cool stuff you do with bombers in Lemmings 3D. Seeing the solution come together made me smile.
54. The Claw - Great. One of the hardest in the rank for me, but also one of the coolest! A stand out. I'm impressed that the solution was so open ended but still remained difficult. The fact it was an artistic level on top of it makes it all the more impressive.
55. Walk The Plank - Pretty good, though a bit weird. There's so many blocks that the performance dips noticeably, but most of that terrain doesn't really contribute to the puzzle. Also the solution itself... it feels very 'different'? I'm not sure what to think of it.
56. Ultimate Lemja Warrior - Great. Very striking. The tent walls were a little hard on the eyes at first but I got used to it before long. The solution is cool, in terms of figuring it out and seeing it in action. Creative abuse of splitter blocks.
57. Wafer-Thin - Good. My solution was a backroute, but I figured out the intended solution anyway, as discussed on the discord. Always fun to see puzzles that look 2D but have 3D solutions. Never gets old.
58. Entanglement - Great. One of my favourites in the rank! The other bomber showcase. The black and white colour scheme for the two paths in the space setting is very stylish. The solution is definitely fiddly, but SUPER satisfying. Figuring out and then executing that mid-build mid-air bomber was the good stuff.
59. Area 59 - Great. As with Infinite Lemming Drive, the fact there's boxes in the middle of these tiny rooms makes it feel uncomfortably cramped at times, but the puzzle itself is great. The trick is cruel, but you feel like a genius when you figure it out.
60. Taste of Nostalgia - Great. The solution is awesome. Creative use of turners.

Level rankings (favourite to least favourite):
Spoiler

The Claw
Entanglement
Complimentary Lemmings
Ultimate Lemja Warrior
The Winding Way
Space Station
Cold Snap
Area 59
The Ancient Lemming Curse
Taste Of Nostalgia
Wafer-Thin
Big Green Birb
Rapid Drive
The King's Test
The Outpost
Longboy (Part 2)
Walk The Plank
Deathspring Tunnel
Short n Simple
Tunnel Warfare
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.02 update]
Post by: namida on March 10, 2020, 08:28:32 PM
Uploaded an update, V1.02. This fixes backroutes in a few late-Taxing / early-Mayhem levels (and one misc fix).

Fixed levels
Taxing 44 "The Ancient Lemming Curse" - Time limit increased to 7:30 (as 5:00 was quite tight, and this wasn't meant to be a time-cruncher)
Taxing 57 "Wafer-Thin" - Backroute fix
Taxing 59 "Area 59" - Backroute fix
Mayhem 64 "Candy Corner" - Backroute fix

Download: https://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?id=396 (perma-link to V1.02)
You can simply extract this over the top of your existing copy of the pack.

Solution replays have been updated as well, see the first post. The solution videos have been replaced where necessary as well.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: namida on March 25, 2020, 08:46:23 AM
V1.03 released. This fixes backroutes on the following levels:
- Mayhem 68 "Color Display"
- Mayhem 69 "Breaking The Routine"
- Mayhem 71 "Kingdom Of Chaos"
- Mayhem 73 "The Grand Arch"
- Mayhem 77 "Winter Dynasty"
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: namida on March 26, 2020, 09:01:07 AM
An improvement to a level where previously the save requirement was (thought to be) the max - 46/50 on The Grand Arch.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: DireKrow on March 28, 2020, 05:47:10 AM
After much brain-frying, I have finished Mayhem. It was a thrilling journey.

Level comments:
Spoiler

61. No Spare Soldier - Great. You've really nailed all of the rank introduction levels. The important aspects of the solution are cleverly hidden.
62. Perfect Show - Great. It's not flashy, but it's one of the level styles I can most easily enjoy.
63. Die And Let Live - Great. A neat solution. I like how the bomber is used; good use of 3D. A bit sad the teleporters are just decoys.
64. Candy Corner - Excellent. This is a contender for the best puzzle in the pack. It's such a simple setup, but much harder than it looks and demands a cool solution with multiple new tricks. It's a standout for how it achieves so much with so little.
65. Steps to Success - Meh. Felt out of place difficulty-wise (too easy) and was a bit weak conceptually, imo.
66. Tomb Raider - Better than the other turner mazes, because this one has actual puzzle elements beyond navigation and memorization. Although it could be seen as a little cruel, I thought the puzzle to free Group 4 in particular was a nice touch.
67. Flying Sweets - Good. The fact you have to babysit the wonky miner/basher physics is a bit annoying, but the puzzle itself is quite sound. I like how it built on the main trick from Candy Corner.
68. Color Display - Good. Again, I'm surprised at how such a simple looking level ended up being surprisingly difficult. Wasn't quite as impressive was Candy Corner, though.
69. Breaking The Routine - Good. I want to like this puzzle more, but I found it a bit frustrating in the end. Had a lot of trouble. It relied too much on smoke and mirrors, imo. That said, I'm glad to see a puzzle using the trampolines! It makes good use of one of their key features, too.
70. Detour Shot - Good. I found this one fairly easy, but I liked the solution all the same.
71. Kingdom of Chaos - Good. I like how it communicates the chaos theme with the splitter blocks. Having one group help another group was a level theme I don't remember seeing much in this pack up to this point too, so that was cool.
72. Acrobatics - Great. Looks more intimidating than it is, but that's part of what I like about it. Although heavy on builders, it didn't feel tedious to me. All around solid puzzle.
73. The Grand Arch - Great. Solution was awesome with how it came together and showed off something familiar, yet new. Even though it's just an arch and some towers, something about the level's aesthetic really appeals to me too. It feels grand, and finding a way to climb all the way up there feels really satisfying.
74. Luck Shot - Decent. Nuke solutions are a bit gimmicky, but it's cool to see one for the first time in L3D.
75. Aerial Assault - Great. As with Grand Arch, the level's layout feels... impactful. The big drops and climbs, the high builds and the large distance you travel just make it feel so much cooler when you figure it out and see it working. At least for me. I liked it as a 'final exam' of sorts for climber+bomber+builder style solutions.
76. Not Quite The Original Act - Excellent, but freaking hard. Got pretty frustrated. This is the hardest level in the pack for me. The dense, almost over-complicated layout makes it feel unique. But what's really impressive is how the layout in all its details, the 20/20 requirement and the 4:00 time limit combined to make it seriously difficult to solve DESPITE the fact you have 9 of every skill at your disposal.
77. Winter Dynasty - Great. As the only ice level, it feels unique. Considering the journey I went through with this level, it's hard to evaluate it in the same way as other levels in the pack. I had a lot of fun experimenting with lots of different solutions!
78. Activity Center - Great. I like the visual design of the level - the landmarks make it more memorable. I liked the interesting choice of exit location. The intended solution feels tightly designed yet satisfyingly frantic. I like that the timer forces you to be a daredevil, That said, I honestly found the save requirement more problematic than the time limit.
79. Power Distribution - Great. Another standout. The release rate trick is VERY cool. I like that it was the key to solving what SEEMED otherwise like a simple case of using the right skills in the right place.
80. Final Frontier - Great. A sprawling space platform makes the perfect setting for a final level. Despite the abundance of teleporters, I never felt too lost. While it was easier than the levels before it, the tricks it did have were still cool, especially coming out of teleporters the wrong way.

Level rankings (favourite to least favourite):
Spoiler

Candy Corner
Not Quite The Original Act
Activity Center
Power Distribution
Final Frontier
The Grand Arch
Aerial Assault
Winter Dynasty
No Spare Soldier
Acrobatics
Perfect Show
Die And Let Live
Kingdom of Chaos
Flying Sweets
Detour Shot
Breaking The Routine
Color Display
Luck Shot
Tomb Raider
Steps to Success

Overall, this pack was everything I had hoped it would be and more. Thanks so much for making this and allowing me to relive some of my childhood in a new way. I hope to use this as inspiration for some of my own L3D levels eventually.

I'm going back to the world of NeoLemmix for now, but would be interested in going through this pack for Skills You Can't Live Without at some point.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: DireKrow on April 17, 2020, 09:11:57 AM
Started on Skills You Can't Live Without (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1084.0) tonight and got some results for the first half of Fun:
Spoiler

Fun 1 "Called Back To Duty" - 1 Turner
Fun 2 "Security Walls" - None
Fun 3 "Lemmings On A Train" - 2 Turners, 1 Builder
Fun 4 "Performance Tower" - 1 Turner
Fun 5 "The Grand Gallery" - 2 Builders
Fun 6 "Indoor Maze" - 9 Turners
Fun 7 "Star Wars" - 2 Turners, 3 Builders
Fun 8 "Where Shall They Rest?" - 2 Turners
Fun 9 "Spacewalkers" - 6 Turners, 3 Builders
Fun 10 "The Underlems" - 3 Turners, 2 Builders
Fun 11 "Device Upgrade" - 1 Turner, 2 Builders

It's believed that all of these are maxed aside from, perhaps, the builders in Fun 5.

Attached is a pack of replays justifying all of these results.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: DireKrow on April 19, 2020, 09:05:53 AM
Finished Skills You Can't Live Without for Fun:
Spoiler

Fun 12 "The Armageddon Machine" - None
Fun 13 "Resist The Temptation" - 4 Builders
Fun 14 "Pac-Lems" - 4 Turners 3 Turners, 3 Builders
Fun 15 "The Mansion" - 1 Blocker, 3 Builders
Fun 16 "Sea Of Sugar" - 2 Builders
Fun 17 "Quadcore" - 2 Builders
Fun 18 "Just Let It Bee" - 2 Turners, 5 Builders
Fun 19 "The Side Act" - None
Fun 20 "Arctic Mission" - 7 Builders

The total for Fun is 1 Blocker, 33 Turners 32 Turners, 39 Builders.

Pac-Lems is the only one I feel is improvable in this batch (EDIT: It was improved! See below). Lots of cool replays this time, though. Would recommend 0 Digger Armageddon Machine, 0 Turner Quadcore, and all of 0 Turner, 0 Climber and 0 Blocker for The Side Act.

Attached is a pack of replays justifying all of these results. Thanks to namida for contributing some!
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: namida on April 19, 2020, 10:38:19 AM
PacLems was indeed improvable, to 3 turners. (I don't see any room for improvement over 3 builders.) This involves some big-time glitch abuse, though.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.03 update]
Post by: namida on April 19, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
^ While not an actual improvement on the result, I can now make this a glitchless 3 turners. Major oversight on my part yesterday.
Title: Re: [Loap / Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.05 update]
Post by: kaywhyn on December 19, 2023, 11:56:49 PM
Hello namida,

I have completed up to the Tricky rank, so I'm just going to drop off my replays and provide some feedback. I also have a LP of the pack. Great pack so far btw! :thumbsup:

LP link here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJt1hv6lxgiu3m52_OSSGHaE (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJt1hv6lxgiu3m52_OSSGHaE) Enjoy! :P

General Feedback

Lemmings Plus 3D is another custom level pack in the series by namida but this time for the game Lemmings 3D, not for NL. There are 80 brand new levels, 20 each in 4 main ranks, with the rank names being the exact same as the ones in the base game: Fun, Tricky, Taxing, and Mayhem. There are actually 100 levels in total, but the other 20 are the exact same ones as the Practice levels you can play in the base game itself. I am fairly new to the game of L3D myself, having never played it until my LP of it 1.5 years ago last summer. Since then, I haven't touched the game itself and therefore my memory of the mechanics is quite hazy.

Same with being completely new to the Loap engine, which is an engine developed by namida to allow you to play L3D and any custom content for the game, similar to NL for custom Lemmings content. It's also similar in that like NL, it has quality of life features, such as time skipping, frame stepping, and rewinding. Even without these features, Lemmings 3D isn't as bad or frustrating in the execution due to it being block-based, but they're still very nice to have, as they certainly beat having to fully restart the level and then watching the replay and then making sure to interrupt the game before the point of the screw-up.

To familiarize myself with Loap, I used the Lemmings 3D Winterland levels as a warm-up to get myself comfortable with the Loap controls. Though it's only 6 levels long, it was enough to get myself quickly in tune with the engine in preparation for LP3D. I can also say that it's a great engine, even if I still occasionally have a lot of hiccups in regards to the fiddly camera controls and movement :laugh:

namida's pack also explores plenty of things that the makers of L3D didn't, particularly the 3D aspect of levels. Hence, his pack has taught me a lot of things I didn't even know was possible with the L3D engine.

Fun Rank Feedback

The first rank of the pack, these should generally be not much problem for anyone, especially as the rank consists mostly of X-of-everythings, with a few that aren't but even those aren't super difficult. Some are harder than the former, yes, but again the pack doesn't reach its true nastiness in the difficulty in this rank.

Some of my replays are a bit different than what is seen in the LP, as I was unfortunate in that I wasn't able to back up my Loap data and my replays for the Fun rank before my hard drive got corrupted. As such, I tried to recreate them as closely as possible, though obviously the details and timings differ slightly.

Spoiler

Fun 1 - Called Back To Duty Great level to get old players back into the swing of things, especially if it's been a while since last playing L3D. Even if you haven't ever played the game, this is at least a very generous level to start off the pack, as you're free to solve it any way you like and allowed plenty of losses.

Fun 2 - Security Walls Another really easy and great level.

Fun 3 - Lemmings on a Train Very nice train and design, with the added touch of the moving water. A bit harder than either of the previous two levels but still not very hard. Even then, there's still a lot of freedom to solve the level any way you want.

Fun 4 - Performance Tower Probably a bit hard for this early in the pack, particularly since there are two entrances to work with here and it's much harder to know where the top entrance will be when trying to work out how to get them down safely.

Fun 5 - The Grand Gallery Not very hard per se, but moving around the level is a bit annoying, especially when moving up, as the ceiling isn't too high, so I do agree with Direkrow's feedback here. I initially tried going for reverse mining, only to completely forget the basic function of the builder skill which is very helpful in getting up the level :forehead:

Fun 6 - Indoor Maze Nothing too special here, though it's still nice how it looks like it doesn't matter which path is taken but in the end it does. Taking the most obvious will leave you with not enough turners to finish the level.

Fun 7 - Star Wars Pretty much the first level of the pack to have traps, though again you're free to carve your own solution, with the builder skill pretty much the only one where all will be used. We're also introduced to deflector blocks here and the level hence teaches the player to not always use such things in solving, as sometimes you do use them, other times you want to destroy them so you don't lead the Lemmings into danger. Making the builder placement very precise to avoid both the floor traps in the exit corridor is a bit bad IMO, though the fact that execution isn't as much of a problem in L3D due to being block-based kind of makes my criticism of it a moot point.

Fun 8 - Where Shall They Rest? Hidden exit level, so it's an entirely search for the exit type. Now, some aren't fans of this kind of level, but I myself generally don't mind such levels, as long as there's some kind of clue as to where it is. There aren't any indicators in the level to tell the player where it is, but I didn't mind this too much or downright hate the level as a result. In a way, it was kind of fun to play a level like this after quite a long time. Also the fact you have 20-of-everything except builders where you have none makes me forgive this level even more. Of course, namida could had been mean here and made the exit not at ground level in any of the pyramids, but thankfully it's not on higher ground. Just like "Corridors" from the base game, you either get unlucky and spend a long time here, or you get really lucky and are done with the level quickly, though I suppose there are in-betweens for them too.

Fun 9 - Spacewalkers One of my favorites of the rank, with needing to build across the open gaps in order to get around the floor traps, though Kieran was able to shortcut the level by building over twice the final floor trap.

Fun 10 - The Underlems Nothing special here either other than the nice touch of choice of corridors to go down and easier than some of the earlier X-of-everythings in the rank.

Fun 11 - Device Upgrade Nice throwback to one of the official levels with the computer monitor, except instead of it showing what's on the player's own screen, it instead is a screensaver of Rick Astley. This one managed to stump me for a while, as I kept trying to do things to the monitor in order to help the others up to the exit. Turns out it's not possible, as it is indestructible. This level did at least teach me something new about L3D, which is using blockers to build bridges going in opposite directions while still getting higher in order to reach the goal.

Fun 12 - The Armageddon Machine Pretty similar to Fun 4, though maybe not as difficult. It is a bit difficult to tell where to start digging in order to get down, though I suppose that's where counting blocks on the outside comes in handy and it kind of becomes an acquired skill in itself over time.

Fun 13 - Resist the Temptation Another level that took far longer than it needed to, especially as I couldn't dismiss a solution that nearly works but doesn't for a really long time. I later saw solutions from Ryemanni and Kieran that it is possible to use the platform that requires only 1 builder to reach the exit, so looks like I was wrong about it not being usable in the solution and that I simply did it wrong. Great level, though very sparse in the design. Look at me, being a hypocrite, when I myself am not an artist :laugh:

Fun 14 - Pac-Lems Awesome, a level based on the game of Pac-man which I really loved and played a lot growing up, though I played a variant of it called Ms-Chomp which features a female Pac-man instead but othersie plays the exact same in going around the maze to eat the dots and power pellets to temporarily render the ghosts harmless which you can eat for bonus points. The level itself looks intimidating and difficult at first, but it's not too bad at all. I especially love the added touch of the ghosts as traps, which I incorrectly assumed they weren't :forehead:

Fun 15 - The Mansion Possibly my biggest favorite of the entire rank, and quite so, as it seems very popular with everyone who has played and solved it. Excellent level which really uses the 3D aspect very well and would be completely trivial if you are given two turners. However, the problem is you aren't provided any, and so the main challenge is finding a way to redirect the crowds in the direction of the exit which is on a different axis. As a result, if there aren't any turners for this, then there must be deflector blocks in the level.

Fun 16 - Sea of Sugar Another great level, especially in the design, though my solution in a way looks like a backroute even though the 5-of-everything skillset suggests it's an open-ended level. The biggest reason for me thinking it is a backroute is how I don't use a lot of the level and instead went for a more direct approach. It was really the first thing I thought of, really ;)

Fun 17 - Quadcore Quite possibly the hardest 5-of-everything level in the entire rank, along with there being 4 entrances to work with. There are a choice of exits here, and I'm wondering if it might had been easier to have gone for either one that are side-by-side ??? Some of my early attempts had me coming up short on the requirement a few times, but eventually I found a really efficient way to minimize losses by sending just one Lemming towards to the splitter who luckily went in the correct direction to the OWW. Knowing where to put the turner for the exit I went for was a bit frustrating, as it's very hard to tell if you placed it correctly or not until you have built towards it and then you're able to tell if it was right or not. Even then, great level which forces you to be economical with your skills unless you risk losing too many Lemmings in the process.

Fun 18 - Just Let It Bee Aha, bee pun in LP3D :P Really nice design here with the bee and the flower. Probably the hardest part is at the start with the building, especially as it has to be simultaneous from both sides. It was also a nice to touch to interrupt them to prevent the fall from being splat height. After this part, the rest is a bit easier, though still not a complete pushover.

Fun 19 - The Side Act A level that I made much harder than it needed to be. In the process, I did at least relearn that the entrance is solid and can be worked on, so pretty much like a "Derangement of Science" kind of level, except it doesn't rely on that gimmick, as there are other solutions to the level that are easier than that. The hardest part is certainly figuring out how to get out of the starting area with at least two climbers, though again I overcomplicated this part. The rest is easy once you have accomplished this.

Fun 20 - Arctic Mission Really nice 1-Lemming builders only level to finish off the rank with really great use of Virtual Lemming mode. The route should be obvious for the most part, with the hardest one being the second builder and noticing the deflector block to build to. I myself missed this detail the first few times before noticing it.   

I must say that I'm quite impressed with this first rank, as I think it's quite well-done and well-rounded, containing a variety of puzzles, some with a few special gimmicks here and there. The variety is certainly what makes the rank really interesting. Now, I haven't yet made any level pack myself, but it tends to be quite difficult to make an interesting first rank. Namida has managed to make the Fun rank interesting throughout the whole ordeal. As he has explained in this thread, he went for a "something for everyone" when making the pack, even if it means there are some designs that won't be too popular, eg, hidden exits.



Tricky Rank Feedback

Now things are a bit harder than they were in the Fun rank, though still nothing that isn't manageable. Away go the X-of-everythings that were quite prominent in the Fun rank, so we pretty much had our fun, so to speak :laugh:

Here, my replays for Tricky 2-5 are the same ones that are in the original recording of the video of Tricky 1-5, though in that one there is a point where you won't hear my audio commentary because my mom came into the room and in a blind panic I hit the circle for my headset which mutes the mic and also I pressed the hotkey to pause the recording. Once she left, I unpaused the recording but foolishly forgot to press the circle on my headset control to unmute the mic. I have totally forgotten that it mutes the mic, and it's been a long time since I have had an unfortunate thing happened while recording a video, so as you can see it's gotten to the point where this almost never happens anymore.

In any case, the video I did upload is the one where I simply recorded the final 22 minutes or so to the best of my ability but you will hear my entire audio commentary, just not the original. As such, what's seen for Tricky 2-5 is different than the replays I've attached here.

Spoiler

Tricky 1 - SputLem IV I'm guessing the title is a reference to the spacecraft Sputnik. To start off the rank, I was stumped here for a while until I finally realized that you don't build to get into the opening at the start, as you need both builders to reach the exit. Eventually, you realize that you must navigate through the bottom carefully in order to avoid the gaps and also to redirect the Lemmings into the structure so that you can build out, block, and then build in the other direction to reach the exit. Nice one to begin the rank.

Tricky 2 - Redirect Loop Another level that I got stuck on far longer than I needed to be, though that was because I was completely stumped as to how to break the Lemmings out of the infinite loop. Seems my solution is a backroute, as I simply used RR manipulation so that the miner turns everyone around in time before the miners breaks through. I also use the basher on the second Lemming as a delay but apparently when the miner destroys a slab it interrupts the basher, which to be honest shocked me as I didn't expect him to not keep going. Guess the easiest fix here would be to increase the Lemming count.

Tricky 3 - Actual Maze Pretty much a far bigger and harder version of Fun 6 but it's still nothing too difficult. I believe the bombers are unusable here as the walls of the maze are indestructible and so it's an entirely pure turner maze.

Tricky 4 - Wafer Walkway It's pretty much Fun 9 but without floor traps to worry about. I especially like the walking over the exit to turn and then block to direct everyone home.

Tricky 5 - The Moat Looks difficult and intimidating due to 4 entrances and the splitters causing a lot of chaos, but it all comes down to observing the action and realizing that you need to pick a spot to start building towards the castle. Seems I did the level slightly different, as I had everyone go over the walls and down the hole in the middle at the top to be bounced off by the blocker to get home. A few of my earlier attempts had me a Lemming or two short of the requirement, but i was able to use some of the spare skills to help achieve victory :laugh:

Tricky 6 - Timed Attack For a bashers only level, not trivial by any means at all. It's all about knowing when to bash the deflector blocks so that you don't get anyone trapped after it's destroyed. Some you destroy right away, others you need to wait at least a walking a cycle before doing so. It's pretty much all about fiddling around with it until you find something that works.

Tricky 7 - Sweetcake When I had solved this level, I thought it was a backroute, but apparently it's intended when I checked namida's video solution. Another level where if you had 1 more turner it would had been too easy. As such, you need to find a way to work with a turner less, and observing your environment carefully will help a lot, such as the deflector blocks that make up the exit.

Tricky 8 - Royal Run One of my favorites! :thumbsup: After noticing some of my earlier attempts would had been a solve but one catches up too soon to the builder who does the long bridge to the exit, I realized what the turner and the basher were for. The remaining question for me to answer was where the turner needs to be placed so that he can be freed later with the basher but also keeping the crowd safe until the path is ready. Well done here namida!

Tricky 9 - Infinite Lemming Drive Somewhat difficult but ultimately a great level that can be figured out and deduced with logical reasoning. It's mostly clear that the only way to start is to send out a climber so that he can free the crowd by destroying the OWW. Everything else after this isn't as clear, though once again this is where looking around in the level will help a lot. My biggest problem here was I wasn't sure where the exit was, and as it turns out it's hidden behind a block but will be revealed after you bash through it. I don't think it's possible to see it without destroying the block hiding it first, as I don't think one can move around in any way to see it before you do so.

Tricky 10 - Longboy Got stumped here far longer than I needed to be, and I did think some tricky RR manipulation was needed, but nope, none is needed. My struggles simply came about due to having some incorrect assumptions about the solution, such as all 3 builders are needed to go over the top, when in fact one of them is needed to build over the spring. Also this level requires walking on top of the entrance to bridge the final gap before the exit, so unless you know this property of entrances, you'll probably be here for a while, so I understand Direkrow's struggles here. I just happened to notice this first on Fun 19 all because of the solution I used :laugh: I especially like that long bashing section to delay the others long enough to give the worker enough time to bridge the gaps.

Tricky 11 - Deep Dash Great somewhat challenging puzzle, with the hardest to see being the digger and bomber. The key is in which Lemming does the digging to contain the crowd. I especially love the use of the bomber on the Lemming who goes around the level to prepare the route to release the crowd.

Tricky 12 - Guard Wall Almost an autosolve, except there's a giant wall standing in the way! The hardest for me was timing the first few climbers so that one of them turns around in the in-progress miner tunnel in order to mine in the other direction. I especially love the added touch of the miner going to the left to allow the remaining two climbers to hoist and walk towards the exit so that you turn the first one into a turner to direct the other towards the miner going to the left, who will turn around to mine to create an opening for the crowd to walk to the exit. Nice level!

Tricky 13 - Obstructed Shot Similar to the previous level in that there's just one thing standing in the way to prevent the others from landing in the area where the exit is because they hit the wall and splat when being flung by the spring. So, the main challenge is finding a way to get a Lemming to reach the tower and bomb it away. Here, I especially like the part of assigning a turner and then bombing him so that the others won't be trapped later on.

Tricky 14 - Mysterious Artifacts Looks simple but is deceivingly difficult. Here another level I made harder than it needed to be, as I used a completely timing based solution and was fortunate that no one caught up before the builder was done. I did indeed the climber turning back towards the crowd but somehow slipped my mind when solving :forehead: Nice level, though!

Tricky 15 - Blazing the Trail Definitely the hardest X-of-everything level up to this point in the pack. After about 50 minutes on camera, I finally succeeded, though it's yet another one I made harder than it needed to be, in particular bombing as high up as possible instead of lower down. Still, it was frustrating to know when to block so that I could mine the other way. Also, I kept running into problems building up the miner tunnels, though I wonder if it was simply due to assigning the builders a half block too early. When I finally did make it up to the top, I found out I was a turner short, but fortunately I realized that my solution could still be salvaged. The good old build out, block, and then build in the other direction to reach the exit. Like Direkrow, even though I had the luxury of playing on Loap and hence have the convenience features, this is very well a level I likely don't ever want to play again ;)

Tricky 16 - Firewall The first level to be a no solve on camera. My struggles all came about due to taking approaches that look like they could work but they don't, even though there were spare skills but the problem was not knowing how to use them to manage the crowd. Turns out the splitters are absolutely vital to the solution and that me not using them was the biggest reason for struggling a lot here. Great level!

Tricky 17 - The Nightman Cometh Nothing special here other than bashing a blocker free, though here the time runs pretty close to running out than the previous level.

Tricky 18 - The Barracks Another favorite mine of the rank! Thinking about the slider rope problem was a nice puzzle to solve. Seems my route is a bit different from the intended, as I didn't use all those walls as delays for the climbers and I even have a turner left. In addition, I used the quick turner to turn a Lemming and then bombed him to destroy the deflector to delay the rest. The timing seems a bit tight with the climbers going ahead to do the rest of the route and that one needs to turn around while the basher is going so he can mine the others free.

Tricky 19 - A-MAZE-ING Grace Another level that was a no solve and the one I got stuck on the longest so far in the pack, as I spent a lot of time with it off-camera than I needed to. It was all simply for not noticing that the deflector block I built over isn't bashed through, as they can turn around on it and go back the way they came from and still reach the exit. Not sure why it took me a long time to realize that. Before that, I kept thinking there was some other trickery in the level, like maybe something hidden somewhere that I just didn't notice. I always kept thinking I was a skill short. I know about the problem with one catching up to the basher to destroy the tall deflector block, and shortly after I noticed the deflector block that's built over isn't bashed through, I realized the answer is to either use a floater or RR manipulation. I chose the latter to resolve the catching up too soon issue. This is probably the first level to show that when rescuing turners they often have to take a completely different path to the exit, since they aren't on the same axis as the crowd who got turned. Great level, and certainly not a hard one. Tricky 15 would still be the hardest of the rank by far up to this point.

Tricky 20 - Data Corruption Sorry namida, backrouted this one :P Didn't use the climbers or the digger, but especially didn't do as your hint for the level in your second post of the topic says ;)   

All rightie, halfway through the pack already and am enjoying it a lot! :thumbsup: I definitely look forward to the second half, though I'm already getting stumped pretty badly with the Taxing rank. I'm only on Taxing 2 and it's already kicking my behind. As usual, I'll persevere through the remaining challenges and will get it completed or get as far as I can :)
Title: Re: [Loap / Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.05 update]
Post by: kaywhyn on December 23, 2023, 01:17:40 PM
Taxing rank completed and so back with more replays and feedback :)

Taxing Rank Feedback

Similar to L1, this is where the levels really start getting difficult. I consider the first few to be huge steps up in difficulty, with the next several after being easier and a few near the end which are quite difficult. As a matter of fact, Taxing 2, Taxing 3, and Taxing 17 all stumped me pretty bad, with Taxing 9 being another, though namida told me it's one of the very fiddly ones, but I have seen Ryemanni's and Kieran's solutions and there's a really easy way to do the level so that it doesn't rely on luck or anything at all.

Spoiler

Taxing 1 - The Winding Way Great level to start off the rank. Somewhat difficult, though knowing bomber mechanics and how they work in 3D come in very handy here. My problems here came from how in the world do you get through 4 obstacles with only 3 destructive skills. It wasn't until quite some time when I realized that you need to send a climber in between the walls to be a bomber which will kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. The rest of the solution came easily after that.

Taxing 2 - The King's Test A level that tripped me real badly. While spending a lot of time off-camera with this level, I did realize something about the bomber mechanics in that it destroys blocks adjacent to it in all directions, except for diagonally. I thought I had exhausted all possibilities and combinations, including bombing a digger/climber vs. bombing a walker, but no, I didn't. I didn't think to try going a slab lower than the blocker and the crowd and then bombing, which apparently released the blocker and creates a path to the exit at the same time, which again is killing two birds with one stone. The other tricky part is making sure you bomb the other tower where the deflector blocks are in such a way so that no one turns around on them again because they'll be trapped down below where the grass is if they do, with no way to escape.

Taxing 3 - Space Station Second level in a row to manage to stump me very badly and I too spent a long time with this one off-camera. I kept fiddling with ways to build to the higher platform from all directions but to no avail since you need to be able to have one builder for the exit, for obvious reasons. Turns out there's a part of the level that is very integral to the solution even though it looks like a complete red herring and just decoration. It took me a very long time to see bashing the tall pillar, blocking, and then building in order to climb it. This was very well-hidden IMO. Also you need to time the climbers in such a way so that one of them turns around in an in-progress miner tunnel who will build the bridge to the exit. Same thing with being able to turn in the lab structure so that no one slips by the turner. Hard one but a really good one!

Taxing 4 - The Ancient Lemming Curse Pretty much a breather level after the previous 3 which were all difficult in their own ways. The hardest part here was knowing how to get everyone down safely, with an additional caveat I learned which is Lemmings will not land on the builder staircase if they're not on the same axis as it. Also though it might look like it's a search for the exit level, its location is indicated by a special engraving on the wall block.

Taxing 5 - Deathspring Tunnel Difficult one but didn't stumped me for as long as I thought it would. This was one of the ones that Kieran got stuck on, but after having played and solved it myself, I absolutely can understand why it's a stumper. This level did at least teach me that it's still possible to bash a builder staircase even when the Lemmings are tightly compressed by two turners cancelling one another by their directions. It's still a pretty nice level IMO. Kind of reminds me of a certain contest level by geoo though probably much harder than this one.

Taxing 6 - Short 'N Simple As the title says, it is indeed "short and simple," though not a complete pushover. Not absolutely certain since I haven't played all of the pack yet, but this one might be the shortest level in the entire pack. After solving this, I watched namida's intended solution and was surprised to see there's 5 seconds less on the Dos version as compared to the Loap version. The solution is pretty much the same, with the builder a complete red herring, but the reason for the time limit difference is because of Dos having countdowns on the bomber/nuke, whereas Loap removes the timer on both and how Lemmings are still able to keep walking to the exit while the nuke timers are going on Dos vs Loap which have the Lemmings automatically go into the oh-no animation when time is up.

Taxing 7 - Tunnel Warfare Another turner maze, though here it doesn't have to be complete trial and error, as you can simply move around the level to find the exit first before doing the level. If you don't, you either get lucky and aren't here for long, or you get unlucky and you spend a while here.

Taxing 8 - Rapid Drive Don't be fooled by the save requirement. It might look generous, but it's actually quite tight, so you have to be fast to rescue the danger hatch, which in this case is the one over water. This one took me a few tries before I was successful in saving the right amount. However, as namida's solution shows I didn't need to do any timing or RR manipulation whatsoever. This level does have clever bomber usage in helping the other Lemmings who go around the big island to get over the wall later because it is now low enough due to the bomber destruction of the top.

Taxing 9 - Big Green Birb Another nicely designed level featuring a bird. My solution is pretty much entirely luck based in that I was fortunate in that everyone fell out in one direction. It didn't take me too long off-camera to get it solved, but I did spend a lot of time with it on-camera before I eventually called it quits. I checked namida's solution after I solved it just to see if it's supposed to be fiddly, and indeed our solutions are very different. He has also confirmed to me on Discord that it is a very fiddly one, though as mentioned before Ryemanni and Kieran found an easy way to do the level that doesn't rely on anything difficult to pull off or make the level entirely luck-based like in my solution.

Taxing 10 - Longboy (Part 2) Nice sequel to the original from the Tricky rank. This one was definitely easier for me, particularly since the solution has elements common to both, such as walking on top of the entrance to build. Nice use of a faller bomber to make a hole for the climber to get into and build to make a splatform.

Taxing 11 - Cold Snap Nice medium-ish level with a nice design too. Seems that my solution was almost intended but a minor backroute due to not using a climber, but that was only because it's possible to contain the crowd with a builder in the small holding pen area from which they are mined free.

Taxing 12 - The Outpost Another great level with an excellent solution. The hardest part here was figuring out how to isolate a Lemming to do all the long bashing undisturbed. It really does look impossible, but how quickly I forget things like assigning a turner/blocker with a Lemming that's wondering inside the digger shaft to achieve a pioneer Lemming, though in my case it turns out that's not needed and that a simple turner at the start and then making the Lemming that turned on him the digger is all that's needed to achieve this.

Taxing 13 - Complimentary Lemmings Great level with another clever usage of the bomber. I do believe there's an official L3D level like this where you go under the OWW. For some reason that took me a while to come up with even though it's nearly clear that it's impossible to go through the OWW since there's no way to turn around the climber and instead he is the bomber sacrifice to help the others go under.

Taxing 14 - The Claw Difficult one, though I eventually found an extremely easy solution which involves putting a turner on the builder staircase to turn the corner. The rest of the solution follows easily from it, but it still took a while to find.

Taxing 15 - Walk the Plank! Nice level, though one has to fiddle around with the floater assignments so that two of them from the nest (I don't remember the term for it in ship sailing) are close enough so that the second one will slip by the spring and therefore be able to exit. I kind of like the urgent timing and staircase building completion before the second who doesn't get flung by the spring slips by the worker. Oh, another great design here with the ship. I tried my hand at one for the current R2 for the contest and the biggest hint that it's a ship is from the title and also the flag.

Taxing 16 - Ultimate Lemja Warrior Difficult one which looks like it could be backrouted in several bad ways but all the ones I've tried all fail, save for the one I eventually found which seems to be a minor backroute. I thought the splitter needs to be avoided, but seems like all solutions use it, though the intended solution has Lemmings build straight ahead in the middle so that you can bomb both blocks on the sides away to release both groups. I thought it wasn't possible, but it apparently is with the use of climbers so that the deflector block on either side of the splitter doesn't turn him. In my solution, I used the two spare builders to build over the gap underneath the exit to avoid the loss, while Kieran used the builder after turning on the splitter/deflector block.

Taxing 17 - Wafer-Thin Another level that managed to stump me and which I spent a long time off-camera even though I was pretty close on-camera. My solution near the end of the video would had worked except it's one more loss than you're allowed (blocker, two turners, and a different Lemming who is bombed, therefore 4 losses instead of 3). Eventually, I found a way to get one of the turners released by assigning it in a digger shaft so that the digger releases him. In the process, the turner turns the two other climbers so that one of them can get turned in order to bomb the block missing the bottom slab away from the side and therefore not create a hole in the floor that would be directly in the crowd's path. I thought that was clever, though it's very timing heavy and not required. The intended solution involves turning at the top of the tall structure so that the faller explodes in front of the first block missing the bottom slab away. Yea, definitely a lot of my struggles with this pack come from how I'm not thinking enough in 3D here, and this managed to elude me completely :forehead:

Taxing 18 - Entanglement Almost a breather from the previous level, though it cleverly uses the bombers to make the route for both lanes. In particular, two of the bombers are used from one lane to help the other get through, and one requires bombing a faller at the right time so that you can remove enough of the block to help the other one through. It's a bit harder on Dos since bombers are timed, but even with untimed bombers on Loap this was very hard to see in the solution. In the end, I made my solution more complicated than it needs to be, as I relied completely on enough Lemmings to slip by the basher before he traps the rest because he destroyed the ramp leading up to the exit. I'm not sure why I didn't see bombing the basher to open up the path for the other lane :forehead:

Taxing 19 - Area 59 One of the hardest levels outside of Mayhem as mentioned by namida, I can definitely agree with that statement after having spent a lot of time on it on-camera, though I shortly realized the solution after I stopped recording. There are a lot of nuances in the level to take care, such as preparing the staircases ahead of time so that the crowd doesn't veer off into the electrical floor traps. namida has mentioned that the thing that trips people up the most in the level is how to turn the climbers on the deflector block near the very end of the level. Indeed, this caught me out too when I thought it should be possible with a bomber alone but isn't and actually requires a builder as well. Even then, I consider this one of my absolute favorites of the rank, even if it's quite annoying to navigate the camera on this level.

Taxing 20 - Taste of Nostalgia To close off the rank of a lot of great levels, we have a level whose solution really tricks the player into thinking you need to turn on the turners when in fact the skill is just used to hold the others in place while the route is being made. This is similar in that in NL sometimes you don't use the basic function of the blocker to turn others around but rather just to hold the Lemming himself in place while making the route. So yes, it does help to have played plenty of custom Lemmings content because there are some analogues that can be used, but a lot of time in my case I tend to get the difficult parts of the solutions very fast but I have the tendency to overlook the easy stuff a lot, as someone has once told me. This is very true of me, though I don't remember if I was aware of this before I was told this from someone.

Only the Mayhem rank left! :thumbsup: So far I have solved the first 5 levels of the Mayhem rank and had an attempt at Mayhem 6 on-camera with no luck. It will require some more time off-camera to get solved. Let's see how far I can get with the final rank or if I can get through the entire pack just like Pooty, Direkrow, Kieran, and Ryemanni. I'm sure it'll be quite tough, especially if the Taxing rank was any indication where several managed to stump me for a long time, but I'll certainly do my best here! I don't intend to give up now, not with how far I've gotten with the pack! ;) Which honestly is much farther than I thought, so yes, I am surprised at how well I'm doing, even though I at one point thought of putting the LP aside and coming back to it later because I got stuck badly very early in the Taxing rank. Nope, looks like my determination and perseverance are strong :)
Title: Re: [Loap / Lemmings 3D] Lemmings Plus 3D - Release topic [V1.05 update]
Post by: kaywhyn on December 27, 2023, 11:49:21 AM
Mayhem rank completed and thus I have solved the entire pack and therefore join the likes of Pooty, Direkrow, and Ryemanni to have done the same, being the 4th person to do so :thumbsup: My entire replay collection is attached and of course more feedback :)

Mayhem Rank Feedback

As this is the final rank of the pack, the hardest levels of the pack are all here. At the same time, the rank is a wild card in terms of roadblocks and hence there isn't much of a consensus on what the hardest level of the pack is. For example, Direkrow thought Mayhem 16 was the hardest, Pooty thought it's Mayhem 17 instead. I'm not certain about Ryemanni, but it seems that belongs to Mayhem 19? As the creator of the pack, namida also thinks it's Mayhem 19. My guess for Ryemanni is that I saw from his LP that the level took about 4 hours total on-camera before he finally got it solved, and that includes the time when he checked the first few seconds of namida's Dos solution for a little tip-off but that was the only portion he saw before he finally got it solved.

As for me, I would most definitely agree that the final 5 levels of the rank are most definitely some of the hardest of the pack. They're pretty much difficult in their own ways, though the final level doesn't come anywhere near as hard as the 4 levels before them. Granted, there are a few hard levels before them earlier in the rank. Overall, the entire rank was slow going, especially once I reached the double digit level numbers, often only being able to attempt just 1 level and either succeeding or not, most often the latter. There's definitely no doubt in my mind that the Mayhem rank of LP3D is far harder than anything the official L3D game throws at the player.

After much thought, I would have to say Mayhem 16 is the hardest of the pack, so same as Direkrow. Yes, Mayhem 16, even though it has the most generous skillset out of all the levels in the final 5 of the pack, being 9-of-everything, including turners. Maybe either Mayhem 4 or Mayhem 9 as being close seconds. At the same time, I can definitely understand namida's assessment of Mayhem 19 being the hardest instead, and Ryemanni's LP of the level is definitely good evidence of that. However, I guess I was fortunate enough to spot the solution and main trick of Mayhem 19 fairly quick, getting the level solved in far less than half the time it took Ryemanni. Even then, that doesn't mean I found the level easy by any means. I had much more trouble with the main trick than the solution itself, but the former is quite clever, though.

Whereas for namida's assessment that hardest is either Mayhem 18 or 19, for the former I found the level much harder to do than with the very tight time limit. Though, that is because I ended up really overcomplicating the solution. I kind of overcomplicated all of the 4 levels before the final level :XD:

Spoiler

Mayhem 1 - No Spare Soldier Another very nice rank starter! It was pretty much an extension to Taxing 20's concept of holding a few Lemmings in place by becoming blockers themselves to contain the crowd and then releasing them all with a basher, including the turner.

Mayhem 2 - Perfect Show Possibly my favorite of the entire rank. I especially like the first climber being a turner and the second climber releasing him with a digger and once low enough he bashes in order to make it a survivable drop for him. Same with building over the gap and then releasing the crowd with a turner so they all drop onto the staircase, as well as releasing him with a digger. Definitely love how the solution all comes together.

Mayhem 3 - Die and Let Live A little challenging but not too much. Another level with a clever use of the bomber, being used to release the blocker who himself becomes a floater because he will splat otherwise, while everyone else from the top entrance will simply be stunned but survive. It's all about assigning the correct Lemmings the skills in order to get the bashing job done before anyone can turn around while it's in-progress.

Mayhem 4 - Candy Corner Definitely one of the hardest levels of the rank that's quite early. It easily belongs closer to or even in the second half of the rank. It is one where I did make the solution harder than it needs to be, especially as I complained about the area where the crowd is contained can probably be bigger to allow more leeway. It's far harder to stop bashers in L3D than in other Lemmings games, especially when you don't have builders or can't afford to with them or with blockers instead. I do like the concept and all, especially as I love builderless levels myself, but this one was frustrating to pull off. However, I did learn something from watching namida's solution, and that is you can stop climbers from climbing deflector blocks by digging the block underneath it. Good to know, so that came in very handy for a few levels later. That also showed me that I was wrong about climbers not being savable on that level :XD:

Mayhem 5 - Steps to Success It's all about the execution here, almost like Taxing 9, especially as there isn't much to do here except for floating and digging. It was more that I was a dummy here than doing the solution itself, even though there is also a lot of unnecessary precision I used, mostly with the floater assignments and even RR manipulation thrown in. It never occurred to me to have the non-floaters wonder into the digger pits of the floaters instead rather than keep the groups separate from each other. Even then, I did manage to only use two diggers, though that's probably already well-known and possible for this level as a challenge solution.

Mayhem 6 - Tomb Raider Agree with Direkrow's feedback on this level being a great puzzle in and of itself, where while this is mostly a turner puzzle, it goes beyond that and includes bashing through wall tiles that are marked with a graphic, indicating that it can only be bashed from that side, and so they are like OWW. It is a very big level and hence can appear very intimidating. Even moreso because there's a couple of places where the path forks. However, the saving grace is that they at least aren't very long before you need to backtrack and try the other. There is a special gimmick here in that one of the entrances that I missed is due to it cannot be freed from the outside. Because there was one entrance that wasn't accounted for, it made me think that I missed a path somewhere along the way. I did a reset and followed where I assigned the skills as the replay mode went on. Turns out I didn't miss any route and went down every path except for those that are complete dead ends. The answer is to cycle through the multiple cameras since they can free themselves without the help of the other entrances. You won't be able to solve the level otherwise if you don't use this feature of the game.

Mayhem 7 - Flying Sweets Pretty much a breather level and where watching namida's solution of stopping climbers from climbing a deflector block on Mayhem 4 really came in handy :thumbsup:

Mayhem 8 - Color Display Can be challenging, but this one isn't too bad. I had the solution down somewhat quickly, but after that it was all about fine-tuning things until it worked. Some of my earlier attempts had me one short of the requirement. Decent level and kind of reminded me of a Bridge level from LPVI that I really struggled with, only much harder than this one.

Mayhem 9 - Breaking the Routine Another favorite of mine, especially once I figured out the solution. Somewhat of a roadblock as well, so agree with namida there. I must say the outer parts of the level after the first trampoline are really good red herrings/distractions :thumbsup: Even when you do manage to get there, you'll find there isn't enough time to do so. I thought the solution I found was a backroute because it looked very hackish, but to my surprise it is intended after all from watching namida's solution.

Mayhem 10 - Detour Shot Somewhat easy and nearly another breather. The only difficulty I had was figuring out how to remove all 3 parts of the wall to stop the splatting from spring use. it's hard more due to the solution than the save requirement, as the latter is quite lenient here.

Mayhem 11 - Kingdom of Chaos Now back to somewhat difficult here but a pretty good one. I especially like how the climbers do all the work and they all are the sacrifices in order to help the floaters home. I'm not sure what happens in namida's solution with the one that turns on the turner, but I used him as a bomber sacrifice to free the floater blocker.

Mayhem 12 - Acrobatics Another level that is somewhat huge, hard, and intimidating. I sadly backrouted this one, though it nearly fails due to the top boundary and if it weren't for fallers having forward momentum it surely would had. Honestly, I'm not sure what happens in namida's video solution for Dos, so I'm better off watching namida's Loap replay instead :P

Mayhem 13 - The Grand Arch Slight backroute, though the fact I used all but two turners means I cannot lose anyone else except for the turners due to splatting or drowning. Thankfully, climbers affecting only the block they're on gets destroyed when bombed, hence everyone else was able to still walk into the bomber hole in the pillar. Once more, I learned something new from watching namida's solution with the Lemmings not falling off the staircase when turning on the second turner. Essentially, the intended solution requires simulating the effect of a blocker with two turners on staircases so that you can come back and build to get up to the exit. I originally tried going for the intended way but eventually gave up because I couldn't visualize it correctly. Needles to say, the level would be too easy if you were provided even 1 blocker. Since you aren't, you have to make do with turners instead. Most definitely one of the hardest levels of the rank.

Mayhem 14 - Luck Shot Definitely a level you either get very quickly or you struggle for a while on. I was the latter, but only because I didn't think the nuke would work despite my suspicions right from the very start. It was really me hastily coming to an incorrect conclusion when I haven't even tried nuking a level when there's a huge number of Lemmings in the level. After a long while struggling on-camera with it, I did have to spend some off-camera time on it. Very cool seeing the first nuke level of L3D in this pack, and now I know that such levels are possible to make in the engine.

Mayhem 15 - Aerial Assault Another level that looks intimidating and challenging but it really isn't that bad once figure out the correct way to do the level. I also ended up spending more time than I needed to on this level because I kept doing the splatforms wrong, when they're really all done in the pillars themselves after bombing to get climbers into them, never on the grass. Luckily, the save requirement is lenient here and so the main difficulty is just finding the correct way of doing the solution.

Mayhem 16 - Not Quite the Original Act Essentially L3D's equivalent of the NTTD levels found in all of the numbered Plus packs, i.e, LPI through LPVI. Same stats as them, with a few differences: 9 turners in addition to 9 each of the classic 8 skills, 4 minute time limit instead of 2 mins. This is definitely the hardest NTTD-like level I have ever played and solved. It took me a long time before I succeeded, though maybe not as long as Direkrow. The main reason why it's hard is due to saving everyone, even moreso when turners are involved, as even if you free them they have not turned themselves and so getting them to the exit later is also a challenge in itself. It definitely got frustrating for me after a while, especially when I thought I had the level solved when in fact I haven't, as well as timings not working out even after I thought I had the solution down. There's a really good reason why this level is very late in the rank!

Mayhem 17 - Winter Dynasty A level that appears harder than it really is. In the first few minutes, I thought this wasn't bad at all, but boy was I wrong. It seems the normal route is just too slow and you end up losing one more than you're allowed once the miner is done, the extra being the miner himself, as there's no way to turn him around back to the exit later. My off-camera solution is fiddly and timing heavy here, as I contain the crowd differently than the intended way, though i was fortunate that everyone walked out the correct way when they were bombed released and the turner when released is far enough ahead of the compressed crowds in order to not be turned around on the blocker and was able to overtake the basher before he destroyed the terrain leading up to the exit and they therefore cannot exit anymore.

Mayhem 18 - Activity Center I found this one harder due to the solution instead of the very tight timer, though it's yet another case where I made the solution far harder than it needed to be. In particular, I only had the crowd contained for about 5-10 seconds and I literally had to delay the basher being made a turner for as long as possible in order to finally get the timing and spacing correct so that I don't lose too many. I seemed to have defied the hint in this pack topic, as I went for the "incorrect" exit instead of the one that the intended route goes for, but they both seemed to be functional exits.

Mayhem 19 - Power Distribution Pretty good one here as mentioned. The RR manipulation was the one I had the most trouble with in the level, as I got the solution somewhat quick. It's far easier to get Lemmings trapped with a digger, as they can only step up one slab, not up to 6 pixels like in NL, though the difference is essentially due to pixel-based vs block-based.

Mayhem 20 - Final Frontier While definitely nowhere near the hardest or anywhere as difficult as the 4 levels before it, it's still no pushover. The teleporters and somewhat huge level does make the level look somewhat intimidating, but it isn't as bad as it appears. Indeed, I called it quits after close to 40 minutes on it. It was mostly due to exhaustion and given how very late it was where I am. Turns out that I nearly had a solution, I simply stopped too soon, just like I did with Taxing 19. In the end, a slight backroute, nearly similar to the one Ryemanni found. I must say that while I'm quite shocked that it took him more than 4 hours before solving Mayhem 19, I'm just as shocked that he managed to get this one solved in only about 10 minutes. So, it really does show that difficulty is different with different individuals, as well as how you just have to be in the right mindset. When you're mentally exhausted and sleepy, you can easily miss details that you otherwise wouldn't if you're in an alert state. All things considered, still a worthy level to end the pack on.     

With the completion of LP3D, I have officially completed all packs of the series! :thumbsup: It was a long road and journey, but I have apparently accomplished the feat in just 3 years. So, for the time being I have finished all of namida's released packs for NL and L3D, which does include Doomsday Lemmings for the former. In fact, this pack of namida's was the very first one I LPed, back at a time when I was completely new to LPing and had far less experience with solving custom Lemmings level packs on NL and roadblocks therefore came up very often for me.

In closing, thank you for this pack and all of your Lemmings Plus packs, namida! :thumbsup: I especially enjoyed your LP3D pack all the way from start to finish, even when I thought about putting aside the LP for a while because I got stumped pretty badly with a few early Taxing levels. The first few of Taxing are definitely a huge step up in difficulty, while the next several after the first 5 or so are easier. Just like L1, the halves of the rank can swap with one another, as, except for a few levels here and there, eg, Taxing 17 and 19, being difficult than most others around it, the second half felt easier than the first half IMO.