Lemmix new database

[EricLang]

Back to my program Lemmix and could use some brainstorming help.

I want to do 4 things:
1)Create 1 program with a level editor and gameplayer
2)Using a real sql-database (probably firebird client, very good and fast) to store data and levels.
3)Importing doslemmings / winlemmings / lemmings tribes (2D only) into the database.
4)Other people can write plugins.

First point is: the database must be able to store all types of lemminggames and graphics.
So I'm currently busy designing the tables and relations.
Important thing is that everything can be found easily / transparently by the editor (and player) to collect to correct data.
Are there people here who can help me designing the entities?
This can be done in this thread of course.

[mobius]

oh boy! You’re going to work on Lemmix again?

happy happy joy joy. 


I can’t help with the programming, but I can help with brainstorming. There are a number of people here who can however do some program wizardry

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a few ideas for the program:

have music and or sounds toggable in the tester/player.
fast forward is a little too fast. Either slow it down or make 2 FF’s (two different speeds)
[To go into more detail; FF actually seems buggy to me. It will go at a certain speed then suddenly speed up faster. Then sometimes not.]
Have an option that you can use the player/tester in a windowed mode, or non-full screen.

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the following are things which are about the game itself which I don’t know if you can change or not; (in order of relative importance/assumed do-ability).

directional selection
highlight selected lemming under cursor. (This comes in handy when your selecting from a cluttered group. Even with the message in the corner it can still be annoying).
Fix the way trigger areas work.
   Make their positions accurate to the object.
   Be able to have more than the current amount. Whatever that is if you try to put more objects on then that they don’t work.
Change the way they have to be aligned to the grid. That’s really annoying.
Steel is the same way.
fix all the steel glitches.
Add steel to the Bubble terrain set. I wouldn’t care if we just copied the steel artwork from rock or brick. They look close enough. (Ones like Crystal or ice would be out of place but I don’t think rock looks too bad. Or maybe pillar)
Somewhere down the road, I have all kinds of ideas for totally new features to add to the game. As do some others here.
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I enjoy using your program btw.    Even if none of those things are possible I'd like to write it down somewhere for reference.

[EricLang]

Happy to hear that you enjoy Lemmix!
It's time to make the program more user friendly and modern.

Thanks I'll list all ideas!
I want to implement different styles and mechanics, of make some things user-definable, although things should be enforced - I think - by the level itself.
But I also really like to keep the dos-clones intact.

The biggest problem - now- is defining the game in a way that different styles, mechanics, resolutions, lemmingraces can be implemented and added.
So the database must cover the past and the future. Only 2D.

By the way. The play tester will respond in the same way as the player, probably with some additions for checking things, when creating a level.

[Simon]

I presume the database is a central one on the net? For users' level collections stored on their own machines, the filesystem should be the best level database.

If you would like to use the original level formats of L1 and L2, then an idea for the database is to just save the whole level as a binary string, and extract only some data from this string into dedicated rows (name, tileset, skillset, searchable things like these). You probably need to write a server program anyway that understands level files. You will then end up with something similar to Mindless's database.

I'd refrain from extracting all level data from the binary string and sort everything into tables. Or do you want to have additional tables with e.g. one row for each terrain object? This seems unwieldy.

Are you shooting for a player with exact L2 mechanics? Several skills have agonizing physics details -- weird ballistic arcs for thrown objects, explosion knockback, fan usage, collision detections, diver glitches, ... This seems like a mammoth project. AFAIK, nobody has disassembled the game yet to provide help.

However, a fully-fledged L2 editor is still not available these days, and would certainly revive level designing for that game. State of the art is to use the nonfree lgl2 with geoo's L2 suite.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Are you shooting for a player with exact L2 mechanics? Several skills have agonizing physics details -- weird ballistic arcs for thrown objects, explosion knockback, fan usage, collision detections, diver glitches, ... This seems like a mammoth project. AFAIK, nobody has disassembled the game yet to provide help.

nooooooo! L2 is a terrible game! (game mechanic wise) like you said.
And the exit's trigger area is way too tiny. Unless of course you fix those things or make them much nicer.

[EricLang]

I presume the database is a central one on the net? For users' level collections stored on their own machines, the filesystem should be the best level database.

That is the next step. First I want to create a local database.

I'd refrain from extracting all level data from the binary string and sort everything into tables. Or do you want to have additional tables with e.g. one row for each terrain object? This seems unwieldy.

Not at all in my opinion. The first thing I want to get rid of is an antique file format.
So yes, rows and tables. But that is internal stuff which Lemmix handles for a user.

Are you shooting for a player with exact L2 mechanics? Several skills have agonizing physics details -- weird ballistic arcs for thrown objects, explosion knockback, fan usage, collision detections, diver glitches, ... This seems like a mammoth project. AFAIK, nobody has disassembled the game yet to provide help.

Not sure, but Lemmix must be able to add new gameplay mechanics. (maybe with plugin's)

However, a fully-fledged L2 editor is still not available these days, and would certainly revive level designing for that game. State of the art is to use the nonfree lgl2 with geoo's L2 suite.

I know there is some documentation about these fileformats. (I remember extracting some L2 data a few years ago).
Do you know a place where documentation is collected?

[EricLang]

At least I would like to give a try to implement gamemechanics for high resolution.
And maybe a list of optional mechanics / gameplay features would be nice.

[geoo]

Here's Mindless' site with the docs: http://www.camanis.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/lemmings/tools.php

[EricLang]

Ah yes that, thanks!

[mobius]

here's some things that would be nice, I forgot to put above:

in the editor:
-order arrangement – ability to move terrain pieces and objects above and below others (does away with the “no overwrite” function. Currently objects always go over terrain unless selected no overwrite.
-have options for setting your own personal hotkeys (I’m not real adamant about this)

in the game:
slow motion: (frame by frame movement for easy pixel precision)

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I have lots of suggestions and ideas for new features in the game but I think it may be better to make another topic specifically for this purpose. (new ideas for the game and/or any lemming clone) My list of stuff is pretty large.
Clam made a topic but it was specifically about gravity.

[EricLang]

I remember Lemmixplayer already has a frame-by-frame possibility. I'll check it, it's in the sourcecode somewhere ...

[Luis]

Is there a way to make it easier to pick select a terrain that is already on the level? It's hard to pick that one terrain that you want to move or copy, when other terrains are in the way, especially the ones with big yellow squares. You'll have to move them out of the way to get it. Is it possible to make it like the editor in the PSP, where the cursor will move whatever terrain it's touching and not just the one that has the biggest yellow square?

[EricLang]

Yeah I have to think about that. In the current Lemmix Editor you can select pieces with the list of terrains and objects.
Another idea a while ago was to be able to go 'deeper' with Ctrl + Mouseclick.
I don't know the psp editor. It moves all pieces which overlap the mouseposition?

[Luis]

It can only move one terrain at a time. If there's multiple terrains in the same area where the cursor it's touching, it will move the one that's in the front of all the other ones. It can move a terrain that doesn't overwrite the other one if it's touching that terrain's pixels. This makes it easier to pick whatever terrain you want to move.

[mobius]

Holding Ctrl+mousclick selects everything under the cursor, this is useful but it is currently impossible to select a piece of terrain that is almost or totally buried under other terrain. [Without moving all the terrain around]

Yeah I have to think about that. In the current Lemmix Editor you can select pieces with the list of terrains and objects.
Another idea a while ago was to be able to go 'deeper' with Ctrl + Mouseclick.
I don't know the psp editor. It moves all pieces which overlap the mouseposition?

This doesn't work for me. Selecting things in the list window has no effect and can't seem to really do anything. If I select something in the level it gets highlighted in the list but I can't do anything with the list.

also I don't know where to get/what files I need to make INI files for Lemmini, but this probably isn't a good place to ask about that.