Oh No! More Challenges!

[geoo]

Your floaterless, 6 builder, lose 7 solution is pretty much what I tried for a 5 builders solution, just losing too many lemmings.

I've already been wondering whether it's possible to get through that steel; seemed a bit suspicious at first as it is not replayable, so I checked in the original game, and it works there as well. In hindsight, it is likely the glitch ClamSpammer described (http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=34.msg1337#msg1337) which was apparently already found even prior to that and that was used in 'Pea Soup' to get downwards through the steel, which dependend on having the cursor over another lemming.
Nice find though, and it's really useful for this level:

With use of that, I found a floaterless, 5 builder, lose 5 solution. (I didn't optimize for lemmings lost, so lose 5 might not be optimal.) I've tried something like this earlier already, but couldn't get through the steel efficiently.

Haven't tried your 6 builder, floaterless, lose 2 yet.

[alfonz1986]

Wow, great work. I'm gonna have a look at the glitch again, maybe u used it more efficiently than I did. 5 builder floaterless Lose 5 is genius!!
Although the 6 builder Lose 2 is very nice as well and doesn't make use of this glitch 

[geoo]

Mayhem 25 - 6 builders - no floaters - LOSE 2!!

Solved, with a twist: no basher, no miner.
And with two more climbers it'd be 100%.

[alfonz1986]

Jesus christ geoo,

You've got me absolutely stumped 

Since I released all my thoughts on the level, you've completely destroyed me on it. I guess u must have found a much better way to employ the glitch.
I read the article from ClamSpam, it sounds similar but not quite the same since his glitch removed 1 pixel and this one removes 3 pixels. I end up having a single lemming with only a miner and a few builders to tackle the wooden stairs at the end! 

As for the 6 builder - floaterless/minerless/basherless - Lose 2

God only knows.. I obviously used a drastically different method to u. I was gonna wait, but since u've bested me on it, I'll upload now:

[geoo]

Well, while you remove three pixels with the glitch, you only dig down one (as ClamSpammer described), as the other two pixel layers are above the lemming and get removed due to the digger mask. And it also works exactly the same way, in that you have to select the blocker under the cursor to make the other lemming dig.

As a hint for my solutions: go over the top.

The second one (6 builders) doesn't use the glitch, but has something in common with your solution.

I can also post the replays if you want.

[alfonz1986]

Hmm, I had thought about trying to do a giant leap in the steel. But I couldn't work out how to get the one pixel hole required. Even with the glitch u get a 3 pixel hole which isnt of much use to me at the moment.

Now I'm trying to cut the basher cycle short to gain height and then double build to the other steel section. Its weird... I end up building from a 1 pixel slot so it seals in the crowd for me to do my building. But then I need to turn the builder around and make him mine to release the crowd. Unfortunately the lemmings are all so tightly packed after doing this I don't have enough time to build the 3 bricks at the end required to reach the portal!! 

I almost found another solution using my Tricky 13 steel destruction technique, although it too has some difficulties...

[ccexplore]

Jesus christ geoo,

You've got me absolutely stumped 

Since I released all my thoughts on the level, you've completely destroyed me on it.

Heh. Well it's geoo we're talking about (remember Tame 13 1 builder?), so get used to it. As I said, I think it was only a matter of distraction that caused a lack of response to your challenges.  That said, from what geoo described it sounds like there are some pretty interesting things you can do with that level, I guess I really should take a look at some point even if there might not be any room left for improvements anymore.

As for giant leap in the steel, I know for a fact that ClamSpammer used something just like that in his 1-minute solution for "And then there were 4...".  He included a Lemmix replay here somewhere on the corresponding challenge thread, so feel free to look it up if you want to.  (Actually, it's quite educational to go through some of his other 1-minute solutions; ClamSpammer does some pretty amazing things with the giant leap glitch.)

[alfonz1986]

Yeah, I've seen that its pretty neat. But he had an abundance of builders and used several to setup the 'jumping platform'. From what I can see I can only use 1-2 in this scenario. I think a fair amount of people did try the challenges initially but only geoo managed one of them on his own. Then to get things moving I decided to release all my solutions and now geoo has managed to significantly better one of the challenges. Its nice to have some new ideas flying about since Mayhem 25 has such potential for epic challenges 


Heres my 'almost-solution' of a 5 builder climberless/floaterless: Timing just isnt there!!

[alfonz1986]

YES!!

Perseverance pays off again.

Mayhem 25 - 5 builders - climberless/floaterless - LOSE 5 LOSE 4

Like u said, optimisation may potentially lead to Lose 4 with my method, might have a look at that now.

Right back at u geoo! 


EDIT: LOSE 4 confirmed.

[alfonz1986]

Another silly little challenge, no where near as hard as the 5 builders:

Mayhem 25 - 7 builders - no floater/digger/miner/basher - LOSE 3

[geoo]

I suspect you found the same 5 builder solution as me, especially considering your follow-up challenge without terrain removal skills; also nice work reducing it to lose 4, I still haven't tried that yet. My solutions below (replay up to the point I use the glitch, followed by screenshots).

ClamSpammer managed some very elegant setups for the giant leap glitch, I particularly remember the 1-builder solution to Pea Soup (the same solution that uses that digging through steel glitch), closing a 3 pixel gap using only one builder.
I used the digger in my 6-builder solution, and two builders to close the gap. Replay is in the archive attached.

[alfonz1986]

Wow, that 6 builder 0ba0mi0fl is pretty tasty. Very nice jumping setup there.
As for my 5 builder floaterless, its pretty similar, although I didn't use the miner to cut the steel down to jumping size. It is possible to get the correct heights by 1 pixel either side without using that. That being said, I'm 1 pixel off a LOSE 3 solution. Might try a little bit on that today. Still, great work.

Although ur statement "2 more climbers it would be 100%" for ur 6 builder floaterless doesn't make sense to me. Since u had to leave a blocker behind in ur solution. That kinda threw off any of my attempts by avoiding a blocker at the start.

[geoo]

I didn't initially plan for making a step with the miner, but it just worked out like that.

With 2 more climbers the 6-builder solution would be 100%, as I checked it's possible with the leftover miner to free the blocker at the beginning and have both lems walk to the right (where they could climb up if there were climbers left).

[alfonz1986]

Ok, that makes sense. But in ur description u made it seem like u could get 100% using that skillset (digger only). I too have been pondering the possibility of a 6 build 100%er. Would be pretty sick.. 

Lose 3, 5 build seems to be just out of reach at the moment. Still 1 pixel shy.

[alfonz1986]

Found another upstairs route steel destruction variation, although it only yields a 6 builder - floaterless - ~ Lose 5 solution. Still quite interesting to execute.
Its amazing how far we've come with this level considering the old records on caminis were 8 builder 100% and 7 builder floaterless lose 5.
Maybe we've hit the limits, I'm running out of thoughts on improvements 
A fresh pair of eyes like CCE or clamspam could be interesting.