Lemmings re-make

[ccexplore]

I still have about 6 hours before I get back home, but currently I'm planning to eliminate Leviathan's backroute by eliminating the possibility of turning yourself around on top of the arch using only 1 builder.  This can be done by removing and/or repositioning some of those decorative crystals on the ceiling.

Specifically, as shown in the screenshot, terrain pixels need to be above the red line.  (The red line itself is 21 pixels above the top row of pixels of the arch.)



If any of you (Ahribar?) has specific requests for how you'd like the crystals redone, post or send me a screenshot.

But perhaps more importantly, someone (Levithan?) should make sure my proposed change idea actually eliminates the sort of backroute Leviathan is going for.

[ccexplore]

I still have about 6 hours before I get back home, but currently I'm planning to eliminate Leviathan's backroute by eliminating the possibility of turning yourself around on top of the arch using only 1 builder.

On second thought, that won't help:

[highlight]Instead of turning around using a builder on top of the arch, let the lemming go over the arch and mine to turn around.  Later once you get past the sphere, when you dig down to get to lower ground, build on thin air once you dig thru, so that you turn yourself around to face left before floating down to the lower ground.[/highlight]

So don't be too glad, Ahribar.  I'm not sure at this moment how well I can eliminate the backroute without making drastic and ugly changes.

[Proxima]

I think you should just make the change to the crystals you suggested. The fact that it allows a backroute with that builder glitch doesn't matter because (1) there is a backroute with that glitch already, and (2) combining that with the other glitch needed for the solution probably makes it harder than the real solution.

As for how to move the crystals, I would suggest moving the one crystal that touches the red line on the right to just miss the line, and then moving the entire block of crystals sufficently far left.

[Proxima]

Or here'a suggestion for an alternative way you could do it....

[tseug]

It might be possible to use the mayhem 2 glitch. I found something that is certainly a backroute, but I really doubt that anyone would try it.

[ccexplore]

Well, post or PM me (and Ahribar I guess) your solution anyway, we can decide what if anything to do about it.

[tseug]

I sent a PM. I really don't see any point in removing it, changing the level could create new backroutes.

[edit]199.......[/edit]

[ccexplore]

tseug:  got your PM.  Your solution is a variant of a solution Ahribar mentioned in this earlier post in the thread.  Although, your solution does save 78/80 (perhaps even a lose 1 solution?) and have slightly more leftover skills, so it's definitely a more serious backroute in comparison.

Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas at all on how one would go about eliminating such backroutes, so looks like it'll have to stay for now.  At least your solution involves a less-known glitch and requires some precise timing with the key moves.

It's too bad that such a good level is so plagued by Lemmings/Custlemm glitches.  Hopefully I'll have better luck with remaking other Ahribar levels.

[ccexplore]

Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas at all on how one would go about eliminating such backroutes, so looks like it'll have to stay for now. &#A0;At least your solution involves a less-known glitch and requires some precise timing with the key moves.

Actually, I just came up with an interesting idea that can potentially eliminate these climb-thru terrain backroutes.

I'm fairly certain it will eliminate the backroute exactly as described by tseug.  I'm less certain about Ahribar's and variations of both.  The nice thing though is, this change is invisible on the outset!  (Hint:  it's only possible in the Lemmings/Custlemm crystal graphics set......)

I'll describe the idea later in a separate post.  Stay tuned......

[ccexplore]

Ok, here we go, a link to an explanation of my idea to eliminate tseug and Ahribar's backroutes, or at least one of them:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/pocketsofair.txt

Although I must say I'm more inclined at this point to temporarily leave alone the level.  In particular I want to start looking into remaking "From the Other Side" and "Behind Bars".  The former because it looks like one of the simplest levels to remake (except for those "rings" at the left ceilling--what a load of black eraser pieces there'd be!), and the latter because it's another one of those levels that I really like.  There's plenty of time to get back to fixing Rhasody in Blue later.

[ccexplore]

So don't be too glad, Ahribar. &#A0;I'm not sure at this moment how well I can eliminate the backroute without making drastic and ugly changes.

Back to Leviathan's backroute.  How about this for a fix:



This forces the basher to start bashing a bit lower.  It should eliminate Levithan's backroute, since I believe he would then need to apply the [highlight]"steel failure"[/highlight] glitch twice instead of just once, and that would require an additional blocker.

The only objection (if any) is concerning the visual change, what'd you think?

[ccexplore]

I should also add (without going into details) that this fix which forces lower bashing will also have the additional benefit of slightly simplifying the changes necessary to implement the idea mentioned a few posts earlier regarding the potential elimination of the backroutes involving the climber glitch.

[ccexplore]

I should also add (without going into details) that this fix which forces lower bashing will also have the additional benefit of slightly simplifying the changes necessary to implement the idea mentioned a few posts earlier regarding the potential elimination of the backroutes involving the climber glitch.

Whoa, all that in a single sentence.  Hope it's readable.

Or let's try this:

I should also add (without going into details) that by lowering the bashing, there's an additional benefit.  Namely, it simplifies the changes necessary to implement the other idea mentioned earlier, regarding the potential elimination of the backroutes involving the climber glitch.

[Proxima]

The only objection (if any) is concerning the visual change, what'd you think?

I have no problem with it. Just check that there's still enough space to make it easy for the miner from the right to get low enough -- that bit's not meant to require precision.

I'd be very happy to see "Behind Bars" remade    On "From the Other Side", though, I'm not really happy with the decorative terrain -- I'd like to have another go at doing it a bit better. I could combine that with getting rid of those ring pieces, since I imagine they will be difficult to handle on LemEdit!

[ccexplore]

I have no problem with it. Just check that there's still enough space to make it easy for the miner from the right to get low enough -- that bit's not meant to require precision.

Well, perhaps you can make a copy of your Cheapo version, erase some of the bottom-most terrain to match the LemEdit version, add the larger steel plates, and try it out and see.  It's certainly not pixel-precise, but clearly you are a bit more constrained in regards to where to start mining.  You'll have to tell me what "easy" means for you.

I can say though that I'll probably extend the left end slightly so there's more room to start mining.  Also, I can adjust the steel area so that on the right end your mining is less likely to hit steel before getting low enough.

Based on my calculations, I actually only need the bigger steel plates to be 21 pixels tall, but unfortunately they only come in 16 or 25.  I suppose I can set the steel area not to include the bottom 4 rows of pixels of the bigger steel plates.

On "From the Other Side", though, I'm not really happy with the decorative terrain -- I'd like to have another go at doing it a bit better. I could combine that with getting rid of those ring pieces, since I imagine they will be difficult to handle on LemEdit!

Well, it'd be tedious since I'd have to hollow out the rings with numerous eraser pieces, but it's doable and actually kinda neat to be able to recreate them in LemEdit.  So you don't have to get rid of those rings unless you really want to.  You decide.