Author Topic: I'm currently correcting Lemmings  (Read 11518 times)

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Offline DragonsLover

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I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« on: October 15, 2006, 06:26:32 AM »
Just a question first (if only Mike could be here) : Why does some objects and terrain parts are missing or moved in the PC Dos version? Why does Lemmings under PC is so different?

So, here's what I did and what I'm currently doing : I correct the levels. They'll be like the "original" ones.

Also, I just realised too that it is possible to get 100 Lemmings under Atari-ST. But I don't know if it could be corrected too.

And you'll say why I'm doing that? This is because I like Lemmings and it's kinda bad that the PC version isn't so good. I wish to do a "perfect" version of Lemmings.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 10:42:16 PM »
So, here's what I did and what I'm currently doing : I correct the levels. They'll be like the "original" ones.

Wow, sorry to hear you have been wasting your time like this.̆ :winktounge:̆ Mindless already extracted and posted the level data for the Amiga version, as discussed̆here.̆ So there's no need for you to manually correct anything.

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Also, I just realised too that it is possible to get 100 Lemmings under Atari-ST. But I don't know if it could be corrected too.

Doubtful.̆ The DOS games seem to set up its memory for no more than 80 lemmings.̆ Even having 81 lemmings will crash or hang the game.

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And you'll say why I'm doing that? This is because I like Lemmings and it's kinda bad that the PC version isn't so good. I wish to do a "perfect" version of Lemmings.

Well, depending on your definition of perfection, I think this has already been done--just download an Amiga emulator and play the Amiga version of Lemmings!̆ :winktounge:

Seriously, there'll always be some things in the DOS version that can't really be fixed.̆ Like the music and sound effects compared with the Amiga version (true, some might prefer the tiny DOS sounds I guess).̆ Or that the more colorful high-performance mode in the DOS games generally don't work on modern machines.

Perhaps in time, EricLang's Lemmix can be made into a "perfect version of Lemmings".

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2006, 01:18:48 AM »
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Perhaps in time, EricLang's Lemmix can be made into a "perfect version of Lemmings".

Then if EricLang do that, that would be excellent! But this version will only be for people that discovered it.

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Well, depending on your definition of perfection, I think this has already been done--just download an Amiga emulator and play the Amiga version of Lemmings!

And what about these on abandonware websites? It is not everybody that thinks to get a copy of WinUAE with their kickstart roms. I don't want to correct the version for me, I want to correct it for THE OTHERS.

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The DOS games seem to set up its memory for no more than 80 lemmings.

Ok then. So this doesn't matter now.

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Seriously, there'll always be some things in the DOS version that can't really be fixed.  Like the music and sound effects compared with the Amiga version (true, some might prefer the tiny DOS sounds I guess).  Or that the more colorful high-performance mode in the DOS games generally don't work on modern machines.

This is normal, this is the DOS version! And also, it's a fact that it's an old game and probably that there weren't no sound blaster cards in that time (or maybe they didn't have enough memory to included it). For the High Performance mode, this is just for the skills bar. It is probably uglier than the classical Amiga version, but I can live with it.

I just want to improve the Dos version. I'm wasting my time you said? Ok! But at least, I'll do something better for Lemmings. Probably not the best ever, but at least, I will.

And btw, I send you a PM because I'm needing of help. But do you want to help me?
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2006, 01:06:52 AM »
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Perhaps in time, EricLang's Lemmix can be made into a "perfect version of Lemmings".

Then if EricLang do that, that would be excellent! But this version will only be for people that discovered it.

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Well, depending on your definition of perfection, I think this has already been done--just download an Amiga emulator and play the Amiga version of Lemmings!

And what about these on abandonware websites? It is not everybody that thinks to get a copy of WinUAE with their kickstart roms. I don't want to correct the version for me, I want to correct it for THE OTHERS.

Well, regarding the Amiga version, I still managed to get everything I need with the help of Google, so it isn't that hard.̆ Maybe you can even just ask around and someone will be willing to give you the necessary files.

As for your discoverability concerns regarding EricLang's Lemmix, well, when you're all done with getting the "perfect version of DOS Lemmings", you still need to distribute out to "THE OTHERS".̆ So how is that any more or less discoverable than Lemmix?

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I just want to improve the Dos version. I'm wasting my time you said? Ok! But at least, I'll do something better for Lemmings. Probably not the best ever, but at least, I will.

Well, I thought you want the "perfect" version mainly for your own use, since as far as I know no one else in the forum seem to have a demand for an improved DOS version.̆ I am merely suggesting whether it'd be easier if you just use the Amiga or similar other version instead.

Also, in the part of the post where I explicitly said you wasted your time, it was specifically with regards to your trying to add the missing water and fire objects in the various levels.̆ And that's because you don't need to do that yourself--Mindless was able to extract the Amiga version of the levels, which has all the missing water and fire objects, in LVL format.̆ Granted, you'd still need some work to incorporate them back into DOS's compressed levelXXX.dat files, but it at least saves you from actually editing the levels.

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And btw, I send you a PM because I'm needing of help. But do you want to help me?

Definitely not now.̆ You might notice I'm not that active in the forums anyway, not even in the Chip's Challenge community.̆ I'm currently in the middle of a home purchase and simply don't have the focus to deal with what you want right now.̆ Maybe a month or two down the road.

Besides, I really don't know what kind of "perfection" you're seeking.̆ My impression is that the only thing that actually bothers you is the music always reverting to the first music when you replay a level.̆ I can probably fix that when I have time.̆ In fact, technically I already more or less fixed the music issue some time ago, if you don't mind the fact that it was based off the CD version of DOS Lemmings which has minor game-mechanical differences compared with the original version of DOS Lemmings.

Keep in mind again that you are the only one right now who's demanding such fixes.̆ Even the Lemmings Remake project has officially moved to using Lemmix instead of hacking DOS Lemmings, so whatever help I offer you is really mostly for your benefit.

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2006, 05:41:54 AM »
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As for your discoverability concerns regarding EricLang's Lemmix, well, when you're all done with getting the "perfect version of DOS Lemmings", you still need to distribute out to "THE OTHERS".  So how is that any more or less discoverable than Lemmix?

Yes, you're right. But you must understand something: I'm very VERY meticulous and I like when games are very good without bugs and if I found some, I like to correct them and share a corrected version. And, I wanted to give a copy to a French abandonware website, so everybody will take this "good" version to play. But you're  surely right, maybe people won't bother it and I'm not 100% sure that they'll accept it. But anyway, I want to try. And of course, I don't expect to give a copy to EVERY abandonware websites. This would be crazy!

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Also, in the part of the post where I explicitly said you wasted your time, it was specifically with regards to your trying to add the missing water and fire objects in the various levels.  And that's because you don't need to do that yourself--Mindless was able to extract the Amiga version of the levels, which has all the missing water and fire objects, in LVL format.  Granted, you'd still need some work to incorporate them back into DOS's compressed levelXXX.dat files, but it at least saves you from actually editing the levels.

When I posted this topic, I didn't see the topic of Mindless before. My mistake! I didn't know! But thanks for the info! Like you said: I wasted my time! ;P

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Definitely not now.  You might notice I'm not that active in the forums anyway, not even in the Chip's Challenge community.  I'm currently in the middle of a home purchase and simply don't have the focus to deal with what you want right now.  Maybe a month or two down the road.

Ok, you're busy! No problem dude! Take care of you! ;)
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2006, 06:28:47 PM »
And, I wanted to give a copy to a French abandonware website, so everybody will take this "good" version to play.

I hope the website you're releasing this to also has the original version of the game available for download.  Some people will always worry that any hacked versions of a game might have unknown mistakes that could affect actual gameplay, and therefore would prefer the original version despite its "imperfections".

Offline Tim

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2006, 11:56:18 PM »
I hope the website you're releasing this to also has the original version of the game available for download. Some people will always worry that any hacked versions of a game might have unknown mistakes that could affect actual gameplay, and therefore would prefer the original version despite its "imperfections".

Interestingly, I have the original version of lemmings right here at my house. http://www.geocities.com/timfoxxy_236/lemmingscd.jpg (The image is a little out of focus due to my camera quality)

Both the Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings are clean and unhacked so if you want a copy of these let me know and I can send them to you.

Tim.

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 01:49:15 AM »
Interestingly, I have the original version of lemmings right here at my house. http://www.geocities.com/timfoxxy_236/lemmingscd.jpg (The image is a little out of focus due to my camera quality)

Both the Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings are clean and unhacked so if you want a copy of these let me know and I can send them to you.

Tim.
I'd really appreciate a copy!

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 05:31:31 AM »
Me either!

If you could do a CD image (like with Nero) and upload it somewhere, that would be really nice! :thumbsup:

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I hope the website you're releasing this to also has the original version of the game available for download.  Some people will always worry that any hacked versions of a game might have unknown mistakes that could affect actual gameplay, and therefore would prefer the original version despite its "imperfections".

In fact, the website has Lemmings 95 and I considered this version as crap! Even crapper than the buggy Dos Lemmings! Not every levels are there, Lemmings can go through the top of the level, there are missing musics (and no Ohnomore songs)... But there are some features that are nice.
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Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 10:29:16 PM »
Me either!

If you could do a CD image (like with Nero) and upload it somewhere, that would be really nice! :thumbsup:

I think you meant "Me too!"  :tongue:

@timfoxxy_236: if you don't have nero, use http://isorecorder.alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm to make an ISO... send it via http://sendspace.com/ to yjvgqfi02@sneakemail.com

Offline Tim

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2006, 01:57:55 AM »
New problem: The nero image of the lemmings CD I just created is over 300 MB in size! What do I do now? Burn multiple CD copies and mail them to everyone? Uploading it somewhere is out of the question due to its size.

Tim.

Offline Mr. K

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2006, 02:31:40 PM »
You could use WinRAR to RAR it up into multiple volumes of a more uploadable size, then just upload a part or two whenever you can.  Eventually we'd have all the parts.

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2006, 05:13:22 PM »
You could use WinRAR to RAR it up into multiple volumes of a more uploadable size, then just upload a part or two whenever you can.  Eventually we'd have all the parts.
Or 7-Zip, because it usually compresses better.

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2006, 07:21:35 PM »
Yes, CD images are really big. Even compressed, they are big. It contains all the data of the CD.

Like Mindless, use SendSpace and sent it to this adress: dragonslover[at]globetrotter.net ([at] = @)

Yep, the upload will be long... That's the bad thing...
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Offline Tim

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 03:50:52 AM »
What!!! Its gonna take 5 hours to send the RAR file to you with SendSpace, dragonslover!
This isnt right...

Ksoft, how do I split the RAR file into multiple smaller files in WinRar? I cant see how to do it...

I cant download 7-Zip, Mindless. The only mirror doesnt work...

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 04:25:39 AM »
Doh! And what is your connection? DSL? Cable?

I may have another solution... I PM you.
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Offline Mr. K

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2006, 11:29:57 AM »
OK, the way I do it is right click on the ISO, pick "Add to Archive...", set the compression to maximum, then right under that is an option that says "split into volumes, bytes".  If you type in 10M there, it will make 10MB parts.  If you type in 5M, it will make 5MB parts.  You get the idea.  Pick a chunk size, then click OK and it will make a lot of part files.

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2006, 05:21:07 PM »
I cant download 7-Zip, Mindless. The only mirror doesnt work...
The easynews mirror works for me.

In WinRAR, you split an archive when you create it.  When you get to the "Archive Name and Parameters" dialog (via Commands->Add files to archive), you'll see a box marked "Split to volumes, bytes" in the bottom left corner -- put in "26214400" to split it into 25mB files.

Offline Mr. K

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2006, 01:09:57 AM »
"25M" would work as well.

I love shortcuts.

rwkay

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 02:21:37 PM »
Hi All,

Not sure what Psygnosis/Sony Lawyers will think of you copying the Lemmings CD-ROM... but that is up to you.

Let me introduce myself... I'm Russell Kay the author of DOS Lemmings, Lemmings 2 and many of the x86 versions of the game, I'm also responsible for Lemmings 95 etc.

And I sit next to Mike at work (yes we are back working together) so he switched me onto the website here.

Anyway I thought I should pickup on a few comments

1) Number of Lemmings - on the PC we were restricted by target clock speed 8MHz 286 and the need to keep the version consistent across EGA, VGA, CGA and Tandy versions of the game and at those clock speeds we could only keep things reasonable with 80 Lemmings and not the 100. Note this is no longer a problem on PC's.

2) The levels should be exactly the same on all versions (as far as I can remember) they may be different (slightly) only if Dave (Jones) had not given me the correct files at the time (no source control back then). You should be able to take the Amiga level files and just let the PC version load them they are identical (except for Lemmings numbers, you might need to change that, I cannot remember if I scaled the number or just used it directly). I have the source somewhere so I could look it up... just not from work.

3) We could not get the 2 player mode working for the simple reason that we could not find at the time a mouse driver that allowed 2 mice to be plugged in at once, none of them worked so we just kept the PC version as 2 player (and network play was not an option at the time either realistically).

Anyone got any other questions.

Russell


Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 02:44:48 PM »
I'm Russell Kay the author of DOS Lemmings, Lemmings 2 and many of the x86 versions of the game, I'm also responsible for Lemmings 95 etc.
Awesome.  :thumbsup:

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2006, 06:56:43 AM »
Wow! Russell Kay, the creator of Lemmings! Welcome here! :thumbsup:
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Offline Shvegait

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2006, 08:46:39 PM »
Of course the forums go down right after Russell Kay shows up!

I wonder if he'll find his way back here at any point...

Offline Mr. K

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2006, 03:02:32 AM »
Probably.  I sent out a mass email to all members so they can find the place again.

rwkay

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2007, 01:13:36 PM »
Well I'm back....

Offline Mike

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2007, 10:42:35 AM »
Go on then!!  Bombard him with all the questions I couldn't answer!!

If you're all really nice...he might even release his updated Win95 Lemmings where he fixed a couple of bugs!

 :mikecool:


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I sent out a mass email to all members so they can find the place again.
Mmm...I never got that....

Offline Isu

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2007, 02:04:37 PM »
If you're all really nice...he might even release his updated Win95 Lemmings where he fixed a couple of bugs!

That would be cool.

rwkay

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2007, 10:25:03 PM »
Shhhhh Mike, don't tell everyone....

Yes - I have fixed a couple of bugs that have irritated me over the years as machines have gotten faster, it became obvious that the frontend had no waiting in it, so it just went balistically fast and was unviewable and the fast forward was just way to fast... little things like that.

If you have any requests I'll take a look at them and then release a new EXE later on....

No new features though... I've not got that much spare time, I'll consider bug fixes just now.

Oooops now I've done it...

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2007, 11:00:03 PM »
I request it. :D

Is there any chance that "Lemmings for Windows" could be made freeware?  I have no idea whether you have that right or not, but it doesn't hurt to ask. (I assume that no new copies are being created for sale; if this is not the case, pretend I never asked. :))

MattKamineko

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 01:09:44 AM »
Pretend I asked instead. :wink:

Offline Mike

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2007, 10:06:34 AM »
No he can't.  Sony own Lemmings, so it can't be made free by anyone other then them.

And yes it is still selling (which is increadible! 15+ years on) in Tesco and Asda/Walmart for ̣5.



Go on...some really hard questions for him to answer!!

Offline EricLang

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2007, 02:06:35 PM »
Ok I have a few questions, and I am honored to ask them to the original makers!

1. How did you manage the fast screen output in plain windowed mode with the WinLemmings? Are these ordinary BitBlt procedures? Are there smart optimizations? In fast forward mode is every frame displayed?
(besides there are some bugs in the display I am impressed by the speed of display)

2. The main.dat of DOS-lemmings is divided into 7 sections, when decompressed:

  section 0: lemming animations
  section 1: exploder countdown numerals, terrain destruction masks (nuke, mine, bash, maybe others)
  section 2: skill numbers, skill panel graphics and numbers and letters for "PS2/high performance" machine mode
  section 3: brown background, lemmings holding signs, music/fx sign
  section 4: purple text, blinking lemming eyes, scroller (lemmings and reel), difficulty selector sign
  section 5: unknown
  section 6: skill panel graphics, green numbers and letters

What is section 5 containing?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2007, 06:48:56 PM »
Here's another question:  can you describe the algorithm used to draw the lemming explosion (ie. how the shower of pixels move?)

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2007, 10:42:04 PM »
And another: Was the compression format of the DAT files created specifically for Lemmings, or is it used elsewhere?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm currently correcting Lemmings
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2007, 01:16:48 AM »
And another: Was the compression format of the DAT files created specifically for Lemmings, or is it used elsewhere?

Before Russell answers, I do want to note that some months ago when I was researching some stuff related to Amiga's MOD file format, one of the documentation mentioned something about PowerPacker, an Amiga program to "crunch" and "decrunch" data--their term for compression/decompression.  The doc has a brief description of the PowerPacker format and algorithm which, while not identical to Lemming's compression format, does bear some strong similarities.  See http://www.eblong.com/zarf/blorb/mod-spec.txt and search for "crunching algorithm".

So whether or not it's used elsewhere I can't say, but the format and algorithm is very likely derived from existing Amiga code at the time.