Kind of funny how everyone seems to want there to be a legacy option for the people who want to keep the current design, yet if there are such people, none of them have stepped forward to say so
EDIT: Tried recoloring the preview screen and I think this is ALREADY a massive improvement.
I would even propose legacy to be the stadard option as it's close to the DOS version and likely familiar to new players. Also all current custom pack menus are running with it and it is ensure the pack layouts are working.
we need to rule out the possibility of options and settle on a single menu, be that "keep it as is", "total redesign", or anywhere inbetween.
No one has stepped forward to offer a specific alternative to the legacy menu layout, which means there's not really any alternative to compare against. I definitely think we can do a lot better than the DOS layout.
why should I even bother wasting my time making some mockups of new designs?
I will say, though, if we keep the DOS-inspired layouts, I do have to agree that keeping the cards on two rows is better than trying to squeeze them all into one row like the Amiga version.
I just don't think that the main menu should be completely overhauled as it was suggested and I also think the amiga menu is way inferior to what we have now.
I would even propose legacy to be the stadard option as it's close to the DOS version and likely familiar to new players. Also all current custom pack menus are running with it and it is ensure the pack layouts are working.
This could potentially be misleading to new players expecting NeoLemmix to be like DOS: we've already observed that it has this effect. This is one of the many reasons I think NeoLemmix's menu needs an update.
NeoLemmix borrows too much graphics- and sound-wise currently to break the close association with DOS Lemmings. I don't think merely changing the menus would make people assume otherwise.
NeoLemmix borrows too much graphics- and sound-wise currently to break the close association with DOS Lemmings. I don't think merely changing the menus would make people assume otherwise.
I disagree. As a fan of the Amiga games, if when NeoLemmix opened its menu looked exactly like the Amiga menu, I would at least subconsiously expect the game itself to follow suit.
It would seem to suggest that the graphics themselves may have to change a lot to break this association for you.
the menu... trains you to use the keyboard (since most options, even common ones like F2 level select, are not accessible via mouse only
1. A button marked "REPLAY" which leads to a replay browser, from which the player can load the level & replay at the same time (I realise this may technically come under the definition of "new functionality", since at the moment I'm not sure if it's possible to load levels directly from their associated replays...hopefully it is!)
2. All interactive buttons having 3 versions of the button's graphic:
3. Vertically larger, more readable text.
4. Correctly aspected logos.
For reference, what are the current requirements that a custom logo must meet in order to display properly?
1 Increase menu size to 800 x 400 - this will allow for more space for the cards/scroller and will just look generally better on widescreen monitors.
Firstly, if the menu is a different size from the game, it's a bit weird, and more awkward for the user to customise.
I'm also not sure how well that would work with video capturing software -- my guess is "not very well".
Secondly, that doesn't play nicely with 1366 x 768 monitors -- 400 is just too big to fit at double size, so I would have to keep the window to single size, which is much smaller than I like my NeoLemmix window.
Speaking of the light blue font recolor, I would like to formally suggest that it be used to improve the current layout. I've had it on for a while now and it really does make the screen feel so much easier to read. Reposting the screenshot here:
The mockup from WillLem feels weirdly streched to me
I'm also not sure how well that would work with video capturing software -- my guess is "not very well".
NeoLemmix is currently very difficult to work with video capturing software, unless you run it fullscreen, which just simply isn't my preference. Watch any of my recent LPs - the game screen is always either just a bit too small (on 1x zoom) or just a bit too big (on 2x zoom). I don't think enlarging the menu will have any impact on this either way.
The mockup from WillLem feels weirdly streched to me
Yeah, some of the elements do look a bit stretched/squished. This might just be because he was doing a mockup though?
The bigger font looks like it's intended to be reminiscent of the Amiga font, but I don't think it's actually the Amiga font - looks like maybe it was produced by stretching the current font, which itself looks like a manually squished version of the original Amiga font.
Incidentally, does anyone have the original backgrounds? The one currently shipped with NeoLemmix looks pretty blurry to me
That's probably not what Proxima meant. I think he's specifically talking about having two different sizes being problematic during video capture, since often the captured video can only be of one frame size throughout.
If NeoLemmix handles the two different sizes by resizing the window
WillLem's layout looks "weirdly stretched" probably partly because it's wider than even the 16:9 ratio. If we keep the 400 vertical dimension, the horizontal dimension should be only around 711 to match 16:9.
the window size stays the same
if we are using this background (which tbh wouldn't be my first choice, but if it's what people want then fair enough), let's use the best-looking and highest resolution version that we can find.
or only keystroke (if you really want to stick with Lemmings's oddity of lacking mouse control in the main menu).
I disagree with showing the skill panel on the preview screen, because I think it would feel out of place -- maybe I could be convinced after seeing what it would actually look like.
For example, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, the preview screen does show the skill panel. So for my L2-themed pack Lemmings Hall of Fame, of course I would be happy to use this feature.
With the Talisman menu, I think it's already the case that the sign can be present or absent, depending on whether you've defined any talismans or not. If you have them in your level pack, having such an overview that is accessible without having to look at every single level separately in the level list would still be nice. It's like a list of achievements that can be unlocked in a game on Steam.
I disagree with showing the skill panel on the preview screen, because I think it would feel out of place -- maybe I could be convinced after seeing what it would actually look like. It's a fair point that linking this to talismans gives a way to inform the player about talismans fixes some of the problems with the current system (information about multiple talismans; information about already obtained talismans). However, one issue with this way of doing things is that it doesn't allow for "max N total skills" talismans (which, admittedly, are not all that common, but there are some levels that make good use of them). Also, it doesn't help with seeing the talisman requirements during play -- and maybe once that is addressed, there won't be any need to show them on the preview screen at all.
I can see the argument for a user-side option to show or not show the skill panel on the preview screen, but I certainly don't see why it should be up to the whim of the pack designer.
(c) Options like mass replay check, cleanse levels, etc, should be collected in a "Creator's Tools" sub-menu
all buttons are clickable
I never click on the rank sign, but I use it all the time to see what rank I am currently in, especially when using the up and down arrow keys to switch rank. That must stay.
It's simply much nicer to have a visual representation of what the rank is about, rather than it just being a string of characters in the level-selection menu.
With the Talisman menu... having... an overview that is accessible without having to look at every single level separately in the level list would still be nice.
Also, it doesn't help with seeing the talisman requirements during play -- and maybe once that is addressed, there won't be any need to show them on the preview screen at all.
Yeah, fair. I didn't expect the suggestion of removing the rank sign would go down very well... - it can stay.
Does this need to be directly accessible from the main menu, though? Would it be acceptable for it to instead be accessed via the level select menu; either as a secondary tab when a level / rank is selected, or else as a "click to view talisman list" button with a similar effect to the existing menu option?
The main goal here is to have it as an efficient way of showing more info - the release rate and skillset - on the preview screen. The re-use for talismans was actually an afterthought, to be honest, but I do very much see it as a useful idea. I'd also note this wouldn't be a full skill panel, but would only show the release rate + skill buttons (I'm open to going either way on the "does it show placeholder slots when there's less than 10 skills in the level").
Another question to discuss is - since these menus will be mouse-friendly, obviously, they need a visible cursor. Simply using the default Windows cursor is not out of the question, nor is using the same crosshair cursor from in-game. If the in-game one is used, it would by necessity always use the high-res one (as menus are always drawn in a resolution equivalent to high-res, and have been even as far back as DOS Lemmings).
Also - if the menus are high-res, why not have hi-res graphics in them? Or run them through your upscaler?
QuoteAlso - if the menus are high-res, why not have hi-res graphics in them? Or run them through your upscaler?
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
QuoteAlso - if the menus are high-res, why not have hi-res graphics in them? Or run them through your upscaler?
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
So... if the menus are hi-resolution, why not have 1200 x 800 background, more pixels for logos, etc...
There isn't so much in the way of technical obstacles to this, but it would invalidate a lot of existing content... Having seperate low / high (or rather, high / higher) res modes for the menu is out of the question
Some points are mentioned here as needing further discussion. Now is not the time to discuss them further - for now, please focus on if there's any points brought up that I've overlooked here, or any outright new suggestions.
The "One row of cards" argument seems to me more like a "make it more like Amiga" argument anyway.
It's rude to put words into other people's mouths. I find the current stretched-out cards ugly, and having them in a line would allow them to have much nicer proportions.
I am absolutely against making the menu a different size from the game, because this would interfere with recording software.
I really don't like the suggestion for the bright blue font. It may be clearer, but it clashes with the overall colour scheme and feels out of place.
QuoteI am absolutely against making the menu a different size from the game, because this would interfere with recording software.
Yes, that's an important point to consider! Good thing you mentioned it! :thumbsup:
The "One row of cards" argument seems to me more like a "make it more like Amiga" argument anyway.
Where I strongly disagree is the "One row of cards" point. It just looks worse and overall cramped... The "One row of cards" argument seems to me more like a "make it more like Amiga" argument anyway.
For clarity, I'd like to mention that I think the choice between low-res cursor scaled up and high-res cursor should be based on the currently selected option: if high-res mode is enabled, use the high-res cursor; if low-res mode is enabled, upscale the low-res cursor.
I like the idea of being able to load replays from the menu, but I definitely see the potential for technical issues. For one thing, the replay format would need to store the source level (not just be able to tell if they match).
Adding the ability to group by author in the level select menu without having to alter the folder structure might alleviate this issue.
But we'd want to make sure we can still load replays when the ID matches even if the filename doesn't,
Creator's Tools could be accessed from buttons in the level select menu; they don't need to clutter up the main menu.
I really don't like the suggestion for the bright blue font. It may be clearer, but it clashes with the overall colour scheme and feels out of place.
Regarding the cursor graphic: it might be simplest to allow these to be user-customisable like most of the other graphics. So, even if the decision is to make it the same as the in-game cursor by default, create these as a separate graphic (titled "cursor_menu", for example) so the user can decide either to leave it as-is or change it to something else, without it affecting the in-game cursor.
Regarding the background: again, as long as users can change the background to whatever they want, I suppose it doesn't massively matter what happens regarding this. It would be good to find a cleaner, higher-res (and unblurred) version of the existing one, though.
Regarding the font color: I agree with Proxima that the shade of blue chosen by Dullstar looks a bit out of place, but I appreciate the efforts towards making it more visible. Once again, leaving this as something users can recolour and change themselves (if they so wish) is ultimately the safest bet. It is, of course, important that we agree on a decent default colour though. Also, +1 for having different colours for different lines of text (although I can understand why people would be against this).
If anything, it would make more sense for Creator's Tools to be an Editor thing rather than a Player thing.
About the cursor: I mostly just want to avoid a situation where we have a cursor that looks almost, but not quite, identical to the in-game one. In other words, it should either be completely identical, or completely different... I believe the Amiga version uses a Lemming hand, IIRC.
+1 for Amiga Blue, that's easily the best in terms of how it looks against both backgrounds. Teal is also a great choice.
The others are interesting though... is there a way that a few extra colours could be used? Maybe NL could have a colour scheme of various ones, further give it its own identity.
As in more than 4 colors? Yes and no: technically, it's possible. But it's not a trivial change to make, either. To recolor the existing text to a different set of 4 colors, all I need to do is tell whatever program I'm using which 4 colors to change to which 4 other colors. To add more colors, some sort of more complicated change would need to be made, whether by modifying the existing letters, extracting the Amiga version letters (which have 7 colors), or making new ones from scratch.
To add more colors to the existing lettering without altering the art style would be beyond my current artistic capabilities. If someone else wants to, go right ahead.
I really don't like having different colors for different lines of text to be honest. I think it's harder to read and looks kind of clowny.
I'm not sold on the font size change, but I'm also generally not a fan of upscaling that is non-integer and/or non-nearest neighbor, which makes an 16->18 pixel change bad, IMO. But increasing the font size to 32 pixels, or drawing it at 16x32 like the Amiga version would probably take too much space.
I think I figured out the stretching: if I'm not mistaken, I believe what's happening isn't that the DOS version isn't stretched - rather, the Amiga version is stretched vertically, but some of the graphics weren't resized to accommodate for the DOS version's lack of stretching. I'm making the assumption that the Amiga version's appearance is intended.
This definitely looks better, size and layout-wise! I'm guessing that the game itself will also allow more of the level to be shown within the window as a result of this change...?
The main thing I care about here is that existing panels/logo art still works and looks good.
(https://i.imgur.com/1UUARP8.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WXBwAoz.png)
The logos / graphics do look nice, though one thing of concern is that NeoLemmix is trying to weaken the "oh hey it's like DOS lemmings" link. With that being said - the ideal goal is that it's similar enough to have the overall feel, but different enough to make it very clear that it isn't intended to be a direct clone (be it approximate or exact). I'd be interested to hear how other people feel - I'm quite open to adopting graphics like zanzindorf's (though first would have to see how well they fit with, if applicable, a larger panel size) if there's general support for them.
One worry: It would be quite a bit of work to replace all the individual rank signs in the original packs with ones matching this style.
It's not too much work. I'm working in Photoshop, so I've just got to re-type the number and save. I've made the ones for rank 1-5 already just to test out the look, but I thought I'd wait to make the rest until I get some feed back and maybe tweak a few things.
Not sure if it would help anyone, but I was thinking I could post the photoshop files too once I'm done, so people can edit the buttons easier for custom packs (If they have photoshop). If not, I can post the layered renders.
Does anyone happen to know the font name for what's currently being used for the rank text on the original NeoLemmix menu? It's kinda a nice cursive style font, but I couldn't seem to match it, so I switched to Cooper Std.
One worry: It would be quite a bit of work to replace all the individual rank signs in the original packs with ones matching this style. (For usermade packs, of course, it would be up to the pack creator whether they want to do this.)
Ok, this looks just straight up awesome! :thumbsup:
I think it's not the stage number Proxima is worried about, but the "Fun","Tricky","Havoc".... signs of the standard packs.
I made those, and IIRC was on a Windows 8 PC at the time. So it'll be one of the fonts that ships with Windows 8, assuming I didn't make it by hand (which I don't remember for sure either way). EDIT: Or possibly, one that gets installed along with LibreOffice (or did at the time), if it installs any of its own fonts.
the eyes on some of the lemmings are really bothering me they just look weird.
It's also worth noting the lemmings will likely look weird no matter what if the DOS version is used as a base: at least based on the Amiga version, it appears those graphics were originally intended to be drawn with a 200% vertical stretch, so they look a little squished.
I think the proportion on 1 is way too small and it would be my least favorite.
That's why I suggested resizing it by 200% (see previous comment).
I think the proportion on 1 is way too small and it would be my least favorite.
That's why I suggested resizing it by 200% (see previous comment). I agree, it looks way too small in Zanzindorf's mockup comparison, but it can simply be enlarged to fit the same horizontal space as the others whilst also maintaining its vertical proportion.
@zanzindorf
I just realized that I am in need of a logo for the introduction pack.
So I want to ask you, when the discussion about style and sizes is over, if you could maybe (if you have the time and motivation for it) create a logo in the same style as the new standard "NeoLemmix" logo that says "NeoLemmix Introduction Pack"? ???
Showcard Gothic
To fix this placement and also account for the older buttons without breaking them, maybe it's position could be calculated based on the height of the graphic, so it's always roughly centered?
I too really like your designs here. :D
The eyes drill holes into your soul.
Looks good.
I'd like to second Simon's suggestion to rename "Step" to "Rank". I believe "Step" was chosen because of CustLemm, but "Rank" is the term that is actually in use.
NL allows more complex arrangements (eg. groups within groups, or packs that don't divide the levels into ranks, etc).
I'm not sure of any packs off the top of my head that use this feature.
But how is the former situation handled right now in the menu? I'm not sure of any packs off the top of my head that use this feature.
For me, for this pack, the player handles this on the menu by cycling through the original ranks if "Original Lemmings" is selected in the level selector menu, and cycles through the Oh No ranks if the "Oh No Lemmings" is selected in the level selector menu. It kinda acts like two level packs nested into a single level pack, which you pick via the level selector menu.
If something has to go, I would rather disallow those complex structures than removing the signs.
I'm ok with changing Step to Rank.
I am against culling of the rank sign though. The signs add a big personal tough to a pack and I think a removal would also lead a bit to confusion among new players as they still are used to simply select the rank and press play.
If something has to go, I would rather disallow those complex structures than removing the signs.
I disaggree with that. Buttons in the top corner can easily be overlooked and yes even Exit should not be hidden away.
I disaggree with that. Buttons in the top corner can easily be overlooked
You could consider "press ESC to exit" is common knowledge, but you really don't wanna assume people know stuff
Talismans is another thing though. I would agree that this can be better displayed in the level select screen as part of the level info.
I kind of like that Talisman sign and the window behind it is back, actually. I don't particularly care for Talismans in general, but when I do, my sense of "completionism" is triggered much more easily by having them all in a nice overview that can be completed - instead of just attached to every single level as a random additional challenge that you can either accept or not.