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[Mindless]

[size=12]Does XHTML has a tag that says "I want this specific font size but the browser is allowed to change it based on its own settings"? :-?[/size]

http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_font_font-size.asp

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xx-small
x-small
small
medium
large
x-large
xx-large

[ccexplore]

[size=12]Right, but from reading the page that was linked to, it appears that you can either specified a specific, fixed font size (eg. 10 points), or you can specify the font size in more abstract terms like "medium", in which case the browser gets to decide what point size to use (generally based on the browser's text size settings).

But, notice there isn't any combination that combines the two, something like "I want the font to be 10px if the user set its browser's text size settings to 'medium', and proportionally larger or smaller if the setting is something else". &#A0;That would be rather surprising since HTML/XHTML should be agnostic about browser implementation details such as text size settings.

So I'm still under the impression that if you can in fact change the font size of the text in this forum in Firefox, which I think is set specifically by default to Verdana 11px (based on the reply toolbar), then Firefox isn't compliant with HTML/XHTML (even if that means the browser is better by disobeying the web page's instructions to use a particular font size). &#A0;Or unless it's using some tags that's not actually official HTML/XHTML but some Firefox extensions thereof.[/size]

[Proxima]

I'd just like to mention that an additional problem is not merely the smaller text but also (perhaps even more so) the smaller line spacing. It's really noticeable in ccexplore's posts -- it seems he's been manually increasing the text size, but it doesn't actually make it much easier to read.

[ccexplore]

[size=12]In fact, I found the portion of the CSS that the forum uses that pertains to messages:

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.message {
      font-size: 11px;
      font-weight: normal;
      font-style: normal;
      text-decoration: none;
      font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
      color: #62686F;
}
I could very well be wrong about HTML/XHTML, but I'm under the impression that if the font size is specified exactly as 11px as you can see above, then a spec-compliant browser should use 11 points for the font size, not something else it thinks is better.

If I understand HTML/XHTML correctly, then whatever feature Firefox has that allows the text to be displayed with a different size, would be a Firefox-specific feature (and a non-spec-compliant one at that) which isn't supported by HTML/XHTML itself.  There is no reason to expect any other browser to change the text size when the font is specified exactly like above.

By the way, Andi, now you know where to go to make the text color black.  Change the #62686F to #000000.[/color][/size]

[ccexplore]

[size=12]Anyway, here's the portion of the CSS that the forum uses that pertains to messages.

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.message {
      font-size: 11px;
      font-weight: normal;
      font-style: normal;
      text-decoration: none;
      font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
      color: #62686F;
}This is where Andy would make changes to affect what the default font size, color etc. are. &#A0;Possibly the line spacing too but I'm not sure what the name of the attribute is for line spacing, if it's even possible.[/color][/size]

[ccexplore]

[size=12]Ugh, not again, another double post.

Maybe it's just on my corporate network, but I tend to notice that the board has trouble handling postings when 2 or more people simultaneously posted at the same time, as in the case of me and Ahribar apparently.  The board would time-out on me in that case, and then it would look like my post didn't make it thru, when apparently it did.[/size]

[ccexplore]

[size=12]For what it's worth, here's the CSS that the garjen YaBB forum uses:

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<!--
/* General layout */
A:link &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none; color: #80FF80; }
A:visited &#A0; &#A0; { text-decoration: none; color: #FF8000; font-weight: normal; }
A:hover &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; { text-decoration: none; color: #FF00FF; }
body &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-image: url(../../images/Background.jpg); background-attachment: fixed;
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;scrollbar-face-color: #AFC6DB; scrollbar-shadow-color: #000000; scrollbar-highlight-color: #DEE7EF;
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;scrollbar-3dlight-color: #FFFFFF; scrollbar-darkshadow-color: #AFC6DB;
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;scrollbar-track-color: #F5F5F5; scrollbar-arrow-color: ##DEE7EF; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;font-size:12px; margin-top: 0; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; padding-top: 0; padding-left: 0;
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;padding-right: 0;
}
text &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; color: #00FFFF; font-size: 11px; }
TD &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; color: #00FFFF; font-size: 11px; }
input &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; { background-color: #003060; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 9pt; color: #FF8080; }
textarea &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #0000C0; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 9pt; color: #00FFFF; }
select &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #0000C0; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 7pt; color: #00FFFF; }
.copyright &#A0; &#A0;{ font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10px; }

/* YaBB navigation links */
a.nav &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-size: 10px; text-decoration: none; color: #FFFFFF; }
a.nav:link &#A0; &#A0; { font-size: 10px; text-decoration: none; color: #FFFFFF; }
a.nav:visited &#A0;{ font-size: 10px; text-decoration: none; color: #FFFFFF; }
a.nav:hover &#A0; &#A0;{ font-size: 10px; text-decoration: none; color: #FFFFFF; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline; }

/* YaBB alternating bgcolors */
.windowbg &#A0; &#A0; { background-color: #000060; font-size: 11px; font-family: Verdana; color: #FFFF00; }
.windowbg2 &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #003060; font-size: 11px; font-family: Verdana; color: #FFFF00; }
.windowbg3 &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #006060; font-size: 11px; font-family: Verdana; color: #FFFF00; }

/* Misc./title/category colors */
.hr &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; { color: #6394BD; }
.titlebg &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #0000C0; color: #00FFFF; }
.text1 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; font-size: 12px; color: #FFFFFF; }
.catbg &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #600000; color: #00FFFF; font-weight: bold; font-size: 13px; }
.bordercolor &#A0;{ background-color: #000000; }

/* Image fonts */
.imgbg &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-style: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #FF8080; }
.imgcatbg &#A0; &#A0; { font-style: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #FFFF00; font-weight: bold; }
.imgtitlebg &#A0; { font-style: normal; font-size: 10px; color: #00FFFF; &#A0;font-weight: bold; }
.imgwindowbg &#A0;{ font-style: normal; font-size: 9px; color: #00FF00; }
.imgmenu &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-style: normal; font-size: 11px; color: #FF8080; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: 0.1em; }

/* Post quote/code colors */
.quote &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ font-size: 10px; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; color: #00FFFF; background-color: #0000CC; }
.code &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; { font-size: 10px; font-family: Courier New; color: #000000; background-color: #00CCCC; }
-->Unfortunately, the web page encoding for YaBB is structured in a way that makes it nearly impossible for me to tell which styles are actually being applied to the message text. &#A0;One thing I noticed though is that I'm not seeing any line-spacing attributes being specified anywhere, so I'm not sure Ahribar is correct regarding the line spacing (though no doubt it'll help with readability, even if it isn't the same line spacing as the old board).[/color][/size]

[ccexplore]

[size=13]I did some manual side-by-side comparisons between Garjen and a test web page I can edit, and discovered that on the Garjen, the font size is actually 13 not 12, and the line spaciing is normal. &#A0;Since the font size also affects the line spacing, that might explain Ahribar's observation about the line spacing. &#A0;(Note that this post has the font size set to 13.)

The style that would contribute to a font size of 13 on the old board would be this line:

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.catbg &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;{ background-color: #600000; color: #00FFFF; font-weight: bold; font-size: 13px;One interesting possibility, since a few people here asserted that they saw no difference between the old and new, may be that IE is at fault when rendering the old board. &#A0;Perhaps the font size is supposed to be 11 on the old board, but maybe due to the way the styles are applied on the old board, you end up with a font size of 13 instead. &#A0;(Of course, it could just as well be the case that Firefox is incorrect in using a font size of 11 for the old board.)

If people are interested in doing a side-by-side comparison themselves, I can PM you the username and password of the garjen account I created for the purpose.[/color][/size]

[Andi]

YaBB has an included Style Editor. I can change it here without using the CSS file. (But I'll make the usual Christmas style again (this time hopefully with less snowflakes xD), so please be patient. Thanks!)

Anyway my opinion for the browser problem: Every brwoser (should) have different zoom levels. (100%, 150%, 200%, 75%, 125% and so on) Now if the font size is for instant 11px, a zoom of 200% would make the font 22px. And values like MEDIUM or LARGE also have browser internal font sizes. So I don't think a page can "force" a browser to show a font in a specific size (which sounds stupid to me). I think IE just sucks as usual and simply doesn't support it.

edit:// Btw, it's really set as font size 11. The old board also had size 11.

[ccexplore]

Anyway my opinion for the browser problem: Every brwoser (should) have different zoom levels. (100%, 150%, 200%, 75%, 125% and so on) Now if the font size is for instant 11px, a zoom of 200% would make the font 22px. And values like MEDIUM or LARGE also have browser internal font sizes. So I don't think a page can "force" a browser to show a font in a specific size (which sounds stupid to me). I think IE just sucks as usual and simply doesn't support it.

[size=13]IE doesn't have a zoom-level feature. &#A0;It does have a text-size setting, but that's specifically for the cases of imprecise font sizes like MEDIUM/LARGE etc, and the IE text-size settings definitely works on those. &#A0;In other words, the zooming is different from the text size settings used for font size that aren't specified in points.

When you use the zoom feature, in a sense the web page is still forcing the browser to use a specific size, just that it is displayed differently because of the zoom. &#A0;Think of it as Microsoft Word's (or whatever your favorite document editor is) page-preview feature. &#A0;You can zoom in and zoom out, but it doesn't really change the underlying font size. &#A0;It just changes how a particular font size is displayed.

You can argue that IE is bad for not including a zoom feature. &#A0;On the other hand, nothing in HTML says that a browser has to have a zoom feature, and Firebox/IE aren't the only browsers in the world, so any other browser out there which doesn't have a zoom feature will likewise run into similar issues.

As for whether the old board uses 11 or 13, I'll take your word for it, but it's indisputable that in IE, the old board is displayed with a font size of 13. &#A0;I can't tell what the intended font size is for the old board, because it's hard for me to tease out how the styles are applied in the HTML of the old board, as it's a little less clean than the way it's done in the new board.[/size]

[Mindless]

*digs around*
here we are:  ;D

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           <font size="2">
            I didn't think doing fan-made levels would be possible, seeing how it'd be hard to make pictures of them, but I guess I was wrong. Nice work, Adam!
            </font>
well, now you have it, the old board used font size "2"

[ccexplore]

Ah hah! &#A0;Thanks.

So actually apparently the old board doesn't use specific font sizes, it uses a font-size specification that is not absolute. &#A0;Which means, as I have verified just now, that old YaBB boards like Garjen will size with IE's text size settings, as expected.

So it seems to me the correct solution would be to change the font size back to the way it was on the old board, which is NOT 11px, 12px nor 13px, but instead just a relative size of "2". &#A0;That way everyone's happy, since they can then just use the text size/zoom settings to set it to whatever they want, regardless of browser.

[Andi]

IE doesn't have a zoom-level feature.  It does have a text-size setting, but that's specifically for the cases of imprecise font sizes like MEDIUM/LARGE etc, and the IE text-size settings definitely works on those.  In other words, the zooming is different from the text size settings used for font size that aren't specified in points.

When you use the zoom feature, in a sense the web page is still forcing the browser to use a specific size, just that it is displayed differently because of the zoom.  Think of it as Microsoft Word's (or whatever your favorite document editor is) page-preview feature.  You can zoom in and zoom out, but it doesn't really change the underlying font size.  It just changes how a particular font size is displayed.

You can argue that IE is bad for not including a zoom feature.  On the other hand, nothing in HTML says that a browser has to have a zoom feature, and Firebox/IE aren't the only browsers in the world, so any other browser out there which doesn't have a zoom feature will likewise run into similar issues.

As for whether the old board uses 11 or 13, I'll take your word for it, but it's indisputable that in IE, the old board is displayed with a font size of 13.  I can't tell what the intended font size is for the old board, because it's hard for me to tease out how the styles are applied in the HTML of the old board, as it's a little less clean than the way it's done in the new board.[/color][/size]

As Firefox has a "text-only" zoom feature, it's the same again as IE. So it also only displays it bigger.

[ccexplore]

It's conceptually not the same as IE's. &#A0;IE's text size settings is specifically for specifying the text size when they are not specified exactly in points. &#A0;It used to be that, before HTML 4.0 or so, there's no support for directly specifying font sizes in points, the reason being that HTML is supposed to be general and ignorant of browser-specific implementations. &#A0;After all, a font size that might make sense for a computer screen browser might not be so ideal for, say, a PDA. &#A0;So back then, font sizes are only along the lines of "medium" "large", etc., and the browser gets to decide what actual font sizes they correspond to. &#A0;IE's text size settings is basically a setting on how to map from relative to actual font sizes.

It is in particular not a zoom feature. &#A0;There is no concept of "100% zoom" in IE's text size settings.

It sounds like in Firefox, what they did is that instead of having multiple mappings from relative to actual font sizes, they apparently just pick one relative->actual font size mapping. &#A0;But in addition, they actually have a real, "text-only" zoom feature, which affects how fonts are displayed, regardless of whether the font size is originally specified in relative or absolute terms.

So in other words, in IE (at least presently, I think I heard they'll put a zoom feature in for their next version), the mechanism is like this:

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relative font spec --multiple-text-size-settings-> actual font size
                                                                                                          ^
absolute font spec-----------------------------------|
In Firefox, based on other people's descriptions here, it sounds like the mechanism is

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relative font spec--single-text-size-mapping-> actual font size &#A0;--(zoom)--> displayed size
 &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0; &#A0;                  &#A0;  ^
absolute font spec-----------------------------------|[/color]

[DragonsLover]

XHTML is in pair with CSS. XHTML requires it. It's the CSS that change style, format of the texts, images... anything!

So, don't forget the CSS!