The first two skills are bomber and basher.6 can be done with 7 skills. This takes a very unusual approach, and works because you only need to save 4 lemmings.
Go directly from the platform 3rd from bottom to the platform where the exit sits.
Havoc 12 has three entrances, so the entrance order is wrong in Lemmix. Did you put in an extra trapdoor to fix this, or did you play it as is?
I played the level in DOS.Oh. OK then
I started working through tricky, and most of what I came up with seems solid; (apparent) minimum skills for 1st 10 tricky levels:
2,5,5,8,7,8,11,11,9,13
Re: Tricky 3 - I forgot to check this one earlier, and now I can't seem to do it with fewer than 6 skills. Can this really be done with 5? If so, could you please provide a hint?
I played the level in DOS.Oh. OK then. :P
I just did this one in Lemmix with the trapdoors fixed, using only 10 builders.
By the way, the Lemmings Encyclopedia seems to claim that Mayhem 16 can be done with only 2 skills - it just tells you to dig, bash and turn up the release rate.
Closest I can get with Mayhem 16 and 27 is to have the last lemming halfway through the exit animation when the timer hits 00:00 (without the pause trick). Can anyone verify whether this is possible? (i.e. not using a 3rd basher on the last lemming that turns around).
1st lemming bash, 2nd lemming dig as close to end of bash tunnel as feasible, and then he bashes once he digs down enough to form a wall on the left. The idea is for the digger to basically put the left wall of the basher's tunnel as far to the right as possible.
Taxing 25: 7Make that 6.
Anyway, I just confirmed that in DOSBox, if you play the level in high-performance PC mode and use the pause trick, the last lemming will make it out in the nick of time giving you 100%, if you merely dig into the pit and bash. I don't know how you want to count this, but maybe we could call this "2*"? I'll post the DOSBox video soon.
Closest I can get with Mayhem 16 and 27 is to have the last lemming halfway through the exit animation when the timer hits 00:00 (without the pause trick). Can anyone verify whether this is possible? (i.e. not using a 3rd basher on the last lemming that turns around).
Anyway, I just confirmed that in DOSBox, if you play the level in high-performance PC mode and use the pause trick, the last lemming will make it out in the nick of time giving you 100%, if you merely dig into the pit and bash. I don't know how you want to count this, but maybe we could call this "2*"?
And of course, due to the difficulty of analyzing the level, it's entirely possible there might be a faster solution we overlooked. What we really need is a computer simulation that determines, given the spacing between the basher and a lemming behind the basher, how long would that lemming take to get past the bash tunnel and exit. With this information available, it would then be possible to establish a distribution of lemming spacing that has the desired outcome, or prove that one doesn't exist.A light bulb just went on, and I realize I don't need a full-blown computer simulation. Lemmix has what I need to make this work!
A light bulb just went on, and I realize I don't need a full-blown computer simulation. Lemmix has what I need to make this work!
Attached is a 2-skills solution for Mayhem 16, "Just a Minute..." that works in Lemmix, meaning no pause trick or slow fade-out necessary.
Take off one skill each for 9, 10 and 18.
As far as I know, it requires the direct drop trick.
I'll keep an updated table in this post. I've been through the Fun levels, and already turned up some interesting results - 20, 23 and 25 are scores I'd consider challenge-worthy.
I got 20 and 23 (and even came close - but unfortunately, couldn't quite make it - on beating your record by 1 in 20), but I'm completely stumped as to how you did 25...I'd be interested to know how you went about trying to improve on Fun 20. My solution doesn't appear to have any potential for improvement.
28: 8 (see replay)Taxing 28 only needs 7 skills. I imagine you didn't do this just to avoid the tedium of doing the replay for this one (attached). ;)
However, you did inspire me to take yet another look at that level and I finally worked out how to do it with 7 skills. Replay attached (get ready to slap yourself in the forehead as I did...... ).I don't consider that worthy of a forehead-slapping. I think that's extremely clever.
Taxing 28 only needs 7 skills. I imagine you didn't do this just to avoid the tedium of doing the replay for this one (attached).For some reason, this sort of trick just doesn't cross my mind when I play a level...
I've already tried what you're trying to do (and I won't be surprised if ClamSpammer thought of it too), but as you say, it's too high, and there's no difference between DOS Lemmings and Lemmix in this regard.
However, you did inspire me to take yet another look at that level and I finally worked out how to do it with 7 skills. Replay attached (get ready to slap yourself in the forehead as I did...... ).
ARGH.I hate Mayhem 20 right now. Is there really no way to do this without using every available skill?
I -HATE- Tricky 13 right now.
Dig down 3 times using the cursor glitch, as far to the right as possible. This is a bit annoying since it selects the same lemming each time, so be careful not to let the other lemmings jump up into in the water. Block the second digger (the one used to perform the glitch) in an exact spot so that the first digger keeps digging without releasing it, and the main group of lemmings comes as close as possible to it when they turn around - this is needed for a bomber to destroy the steel. Give a lemming a bomber skill at the left position, holding the right mouse button to avoid selecting the blocker. This bomber should explode and make a hole. Bomb and block again to open a path to the exit.
Then again, in terms of overall numbers, Mayhem 21 is far bleaker. So far I'm not seeing any way you can avoid assigning all 50 lemmings floaters.
Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills. It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now. I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route." I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.
I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well. It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen. I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...
Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills. It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.
As far as I can tell, it takes 7 skills just to get some lemmings to the exit. Do you have a replay?
1: Make the first lemming a climber.
2: Make the second lemming build up to the brick that juts out above the others so that the crowd can get past it. This lemming will turn around when he's done.
3: Build into the pillar below the entrance to keep the crowd from falling into the pit below.
4: Make the climber build over the second half of the chain.
5: Release the crowd by building a bridge up to the white stairs that lead up to the chain.
6: Make the climber mine when he is about 40% of the way up the brick ramp. He will hit steel and turn around, but his last stroke will take out more than half of the steel.
7: Have someone from the crowd bash out the last chunk of steel.
Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."
There is a way to create a high enough platform to allow the lemmings to fall safely using only one builder.
QuoteWild 19 is giving me fits right now. I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route." I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.
I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well. It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen. I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...
It must be a DOS-only thing. The ceiling route works just fine in Lemmix, and gives a 10-skill solution.
I've tried Taxing 21 again. I /nearly/ came up with a 6 skill solution, but it just barely doesn't work. By making a second lemming a climber, and having him take over the rest of the work (but this both uses a 7th skill and fails to get 100%), it will work. Maybe someone who knows more could improve on it?
Basically, it involves the dig-the-side-of-steel glitch to get past the flamethrower... and from there the rest is obvious.
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now. I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route." I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.
I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well. It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen. I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...
Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."
As much as I'd like to believe you... well, I don't believe you. Maybe I need a break
Set the release rate to about 25 or so for the first few lemmings.
1. The first lemming builds from the edge of the ice platform. The second lemming will drown, but the third one will land near the edge of the platform below.
2. Make this lemming bash a step or two after he lands. He must be low enough so that nobody gets killed by the ice shooter later on.
3. Place a blocker so that nobody else falls into the water.
4. Wait until the basher gets to the little dip just past the ice shooter (there is a little hump just past it). Hopefully the top of the basher's tunnel will be exposed. When this happens, make him build to stop bashing. (If the top of the tunnel is not exposed here, you will have to start over and bash a little higher.)
5. When a lemming is going down the right side the little hump (to the left of the icicles hanging down), make him build. If this is done in the right spot, he will not hit his head on the icicles, even though it looks like he will.
6. When the builder runs out of bricks, give him more.
7. The builder will run out of bricks when he reaches the snow wall on the right. Let him walk up as high as he can and then bash. If you bash from the right spot, he will stop bashing on the other side and walk up the rest of the way to the exit.
Meanwhile, the rest of the crowd is milling around freely. This is why you need the top of the first basher's tunnel to be exposed -- so that the lemmings who turn around will drop back into the tunnel and not get killed by the ice shooter. Everybody should get to the exit in time, though, saving 96%. (Make sure to raise the release rate to 99!)
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now. I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route." I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.
I thought that hanging icicle got in the way wherever you started from, but apparently not.
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now. I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route." I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.
If you can get DOSBox v0.73 working on your machine, I suggest using DOSBox for those levels where you run into the problem.
I did discover that if I play the game in CGA or Tandy mode, I was able to make the problem go away at least for Mayhem 28. So that's something you could give a try, to play the level in CGA or Tandy mode and see if you can bash successfully.
I would argue that the behavior in Lemmix is actually the more "correct" behavior, although it is a little unnerving to think that the desired solution might actually not be executable in the actual game.
Building at the correct place, I could do Mayhem 28 with 7 skills on Lemmix. Solution attached.More counterintuitive builder placement.
I would think that you can get away without the 2nd basher in Mayhem 29. I'll try it later if you don't get to it.
Yet more counterintuitive builder placement.
Blitz 1: 20. This includes only 1 climber.
EDIT: Make that 18. I've cut out the last climber, as well as the floater.
Well, I thought a "no climbers" solution on a level where you'd normally make everyone climb was a good effort...
2: The last gap can be crossed with 2 skills. (If that doesn't help, then I don't know where you might have used an extra skill.)
8 and 10: Use the release rate to isolate a lemming at the end.
1) Let the left side do all the work.
2) Use your bashers wisely, especially at the end.
Build over the bear trap to the top of the bridge, and then mine down. This way, you can cover this section with 8 skills (7 builders, 1 miner) rather than 9 (6 builders, 3 bashers).
Looks line almost no one is working on Holiday Lemmings. I actually don't keep track of this thread much, so they may just not be on the list. Here's where I stand for Flurry. Note that these may be improvable.
Hmm... I never considered sending a lemming from the left to free the right side. However, it looks like my solution was more efficient in one aspect, which means you can reduce that to 24 skills
1) The same miscalculation underlying the miner glitch makes it possible for the miner to avoid exiting while the mining slope he creates still hits the exit trigger for normal lemmings.
2) In the bridgework across the water on the right side, the reason you don't bump your head on the upper bridge while making the lower bridge, is by very careful placement of the bridges to avoid the game's ceiling detection for builders. In particular, the stretching of the last two bridges on the upper part are critical.
Now to wind up Havoc, and ONML as well.
7: 17
The key move is technically an example of the miner glitch which, thanks to the specifics of the terrain, you don't need to spend another skill to make it work for you. You just need to find the right place to mine.
Now the last few from Wicked that no one else would do
11: 9
15: 13
18: 9
Evidently no one else has done these still, otherwise you would have found that Wicked 11 can be done with only 8 skills.
And the second half of Blitz:
9: 21
I really don't have the time to do nothing but solve levels all day. I already am doing it more often than I should, during times when I should be working.
Uh oh... I've been pushing this a little too much, haven't I?
You're not being very helpful Dullstar. You can't remember how many skills you wasted on the first level. Do this one again, and do the second one as well.
(By the way, you haven't updated Blitz 9 to 20 yet.)
The Xmas 1992 levels look quite tiresome so I'll leave them for now
Hail 4 with 6 skills.
Don't use the same lemming to build the whole bridge. Take a step back...
Just to get us off to a more sensible start on Hail 5, I've done it using 16.
Okay, just did Hail 7 in 15.
I just spent a few hours working through Crazy. Here's what I have so far:
4: 5
5: 8
6: 8
8: 11
9: 8
10: 11
12: 5
13: 4
14: 10
15: 4
16: 7
17: 8
18: 8
19: 6
20: 11
I have a feeling it may be possible to improve some of these, particularly 20.
*Since you can pause and set the rate at the start for this clone, All the "We all fall down" levels work with just two diggers.
*Since you can pause and set the rate at the start for this clone, All the "We all fall down" levels work with just two diggers.
But you can do that in DOS version as well. And Lemmix!
Give me proof with a replay, otherwise I'll do it.
You can't do it with just two diggers on Genesis because you can't get the second lemming to reach the first in time.
Just to get us off to a more sensible start on Hail 5, I've done it using 16.
Okay, just did Hail 7 in 15.
I finally got around to checking these two. Both can be done with one less.
Replay please for Hail 5?
On the other hand, the Amiga and SNES versions' RR-change speeds aren't fast enough for a 2-digger solution. Amiga is actually pretty close, I think the 2nd digger ends up coming out 1 or 2 frames too late. (SNES is not close at all.)
So, you're saying that the 2 digger solution is almost possible in Amiga?
Blitz 15: 14
Taxing 2: 5
Mayhem 10: 10
I hope to make videos matching the records for all the ones I've missed. I have an idea of what to do for Fun 20, but a lot of the other ones have me baffled. I am going to at least try them on my own.
By the way, I should mention that I've "met" ccexplore before, on the Chip's Challenge newsgroup. My full name is Eric Schmidt.
Climb up, then dig down near the right edge of the one-way-wall, but keep the rightmost vertical column of pixels of the wall. When done, wait for lemming to be right against the column, just before he would climb up it. At that moment, assign him builder to turn him around. As soon as he turned around after laying down a single build brick, immediately assign him basher without delay.
Here's the trick: the basher not only takes out terrain that's strictly in front of him, he also takes out a small bit of terrain that's, roughly speaking, "behind" him (this description is even more accurate in the Amiga and SNES versions, but is close enough in PC version), as you can see in the attached screenshot. He's also close enough to the wall pixels in front of him that he will continue bashing to the left, releasing the crowd.
I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.
Set a blocker near the leftmost entrance, near the location close to the pillar where lemmings from that entrance land at, so that everyone from the leftmost entrance is compressed into a single position. Then just have someone from the right-most crowd dig and bash left, so that everyone, including the blocker, is freed. Then depending on your luck, enough lemmings will make it through the traps for the required percentage saved. (Clam's solution achieved 44%)
with the rest the same as non-glitchless. I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.
Find a way to turn around a lemming without using a blocker, by taking advantage of the transient effects of a skill you are already using for another purpose.
Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead >.
Instead I improved Fun 27 to 4 for no-glitch, although I wouldn't be surprise if someone (Clam?) actually reported that result already on this thread, before it was superceded by the lame glitched solution of 2 pointed out by me. Too lazy to check old posts; [edit: actually, since a 3-skill glitch solution also exists, it's more likely that is what Clam first reported for the original challenge thread]
How's the CC community? Obviously I haven't done anything with the game for years, but I still have some fun memories of it. I have to admit though, my brain seems to be less intuitive when it came to that type of puzzle compared with the Lemmings type.
So is that just a clever trick, or a glitch? To add to the debate, if you observe the animation of the basher closely, there are in fact a few frames where the bashing hand is located behind his back (the screenshot captures at one such frame), so it would not be unreasonable to argue that it's logical for some pixels at the back be removed as well. Indeed, the Amiga/SNES versions reflect that aspect much more closely than the PC version in terms of the exact pixels removed from the lemming's "backhand". On the other hand, it's well-known that the game doesn't border checking for steel for the pixels removed at the basher's back, so does that mean it is not really intended? Or, given that the game doesn't do a very good job in general of ensuring that steel pixels are indestructible, is that merely another example of just a steel destruction glitch, but that in general there's nothing wrong with the basher being able to remove some pixels at his back? (Of course in this case, the steel argument doesn't apply, since the pixel being removed the "backhanded" way is a one-way-wall in the "correct" direction, so it's just purely a debate of whether backhanded pixel removal is intended or not.)
Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead >.
To start with, I placed the blocker as soon as it landed, which pushes lemmings into the wall (thus introducing a needless glitch). So there you go, I get to slap my forehead too
To maximise your chances of success, you should dig down as far as possible while still freeing the other groups (9 pixels), and also as far to the left as possible. This helps to keep the lemmings in tight groups.
However, there may be a counterargument in the present situation, in which the terrain is one-way. It seems that whether terrain is removed should depend only on the direction which the force directed at the terrain comes from. Even though the lemming may be facing left, if it removes terrain to the right of it, that seems to contradict this.
If you place the blocker just to the left of the trapdoor, the lemmings will coincide with perfect synchronity. So far the best I've been able to achieve is 36%.
Dig before the first obstacle, rather than bashing through it, and then bash through the floor.
In general there are 2 main forms of steel glitches in PC Lemmings:
1) lazy steel checking:
2) blocker steel-canceling: the game implements blockers by setting up a "field of blocking" around the blocker. This field will temporarily cancel out any parts of steel areas (in fact, also things like trap triggers!) that overlap with the field.
A simple example to try out is Tricky 9. Have the first lemming out block when he lands. Then have the 2nd lemming out dig when he lands (to assign this lemming a skill, you'll need the technique of "walkers-only" selection, done by holding down the right mouse button while selecting and clicking on the lemming with the usual left button). You will see him dig down the steel even though he shouldn't. Of course, doing so also frees the blocker right away, thus ending the field of steel-canceling, so on the next dig-stroke he will fail.
3) there is also a very specialized form of steel digging using a very specialized glitch unrelated to the above two. See this post for details.
I don't remember Tricky 9's min solution, but most likely it uses #2 (blocker steel-canceling) together with exploders and #1 to blast apart the steel floor right below the entrance trapdoor. This then allows lemmings to directly drop to the exit. Due to a glitch in PC Lemmings, such "direct-drop" lemmings will exit instead of going splat. For Tricky 13, you start with the "build and dig down edge of steel block" trick explained in #1; the rest is glitch-free (but far from trivial!).
I've surprised about Tricky 13. I though you'd have to build up right and then go through the steel. My current best for this level starts with your suggestion, but uses 8 skill assignments, 1 more than the record.
(By the way, Tricky 20 is another one I'm quite stuck on. The only thing I can think of is to go under the one-way wall, but the thin platforms on either side foil this.)
The left edge of the one way wall is actually one pixel to the right of the left edge of where the floor is no longer thin. In other words, note the Ys and Zs below in my attempt to depict what I mean in ASCII art:
YXXXX
YXXXX
YXXXX
XXXXZXXXXXX
XXXXZXXXXXX
ZXXXXX
ZXXXXX
(note: picture not to scale vertically)
This makes it possible to have a lemming explode at the moment he turned around at the one-way-wall (eg. the pixel column of Ys) at the same time another lemming has already turned around near same location. Then that 2nd lemming can immediately start building left, from horizontally where the Z's are, to fix the floor breakage. You might not be able to fully seal up the floor breakage, but I believe you should succeed in at least catching the lemmings arriving from the left, so as long as you pave the rest of the path fast enough you should still have enough lemmings left to pass the level. Be sure to fiddle around with the release rate to achieve the correct timing for various lemmings to do their tasks.
If you stop a basher in mid-stroke by, say, assigning him builder, the interrupted partial bash stroke will act like a step for walking lemmings approach the end of bash tunnel. If the tunnel is already very close to the surface of the floor, the created steps can allow lemmings to get all the way up to the surface.
Thus if you are very careful with where you start bashing, you can create a path to the exit without breaking through on the right the thick section of floor underneath the one-way wall.
Tricky 26 could be done with two items. At least on SNES & genesis versions. Its just time used bashers right timings. Its quite precise but overall quite easy.
Take off one skill each for 9, 10 and 18.
*slaps forehead*
Take off another one from [Crazy] 18. That's 6 skills now.
The first lemming builds to the chains such that he gets there without hitting his head first. The second and third lemmings die, and the fourth builds from the bottom link of the first chain. If he starts right at the edge, he can prevent the fifth lemming from falling through.
The fifth lemming builds from a pixel-precise location on the second chain such that he goes all the way up to the chain above without hitting his head on it. There's a point up ahead where the lemmings will get trapped at the top of the screen, so a basher is used to prevent that from happening. From that point, you can safely drop off of the chains and simply build 3x to the exit. Several lemmings are lost, but enough should reach the exit to pass the level (I was able to get 83%).
I started the builder further to the right, and used a miner on the bridge in progress to clear the chain out of his way. The builder hits the vertical chain lower down, in a place where the lemmings can walk up without getting stuck at the top.
And there's a neat quirk to [Flurry] level 6. If you look at it in Lemmix (or LemEdit) you might be able to spot this.I spotted it once by trying something that shouldn't have worked, just for fun.
Hm, another challenge that hasn't reached Lemmings 3D yet...
Tricky 25 - 4 skills? (This is based on that there's a save-76 solution, which "may" involve 3 bombers, and the fact that the level can't be solved without at least 1 turner.)4 skills is correct (2 bombers and 2 turners)
Mayhem 67, I've confirmed two different paths for 6 skills (one via middle spring, one via first spring), but I'm working on a possible 5 skill solution. Best attempt so far saves 59 (and would save 60 but for a minor screwup near the end), but a lot of lemmings are lost to a different spring and I think there's room to avoid this with better RR manipulation (and that's saying something, as this solution already involves over 20 release rate changes).5 skills is now confirmed. Get ready to slap yourself in the head with this one: