Let's take a look at how many total levels we have available to choose from:
120 levels total.
Of these, we have 80 unique maps. However, there are two maps of We All Fall Down (even if there are some very slight differences in the decorative terrain), bringing it down to 79 truly unique maps.
If we do allow the training levels' repeats (except Fun 6, as that one would be entirely redundant), this brings it up to 84.
105 levels total that aren't in other versions, excluding the 2-player and test maps.
Of these, (I think) 13 are repeated, and 8 are remakes of ONML levels (we could consider whether to use these versions rather than the authentic ONML versions, due to the abundance of brick tileset levels in ONML). Assuming my counts are right, this brings it down to 92.
Taking out the five special graphics levels (though we might use these ones instead of the usual Orig ones, if we keep them at all), 87 levels.
The Sega graphic set levels may be usable, but in one version of each (so that's the 5 levels).
Sixes Not is basically an alternate version of All The 6s, so should be excluded.
We should maybe discuss whether to use this version's repeat of Tricky 12 rather than the Amiga / PC version's one. Both are very good levels, but we probably don't want to include both.
We have 11 levels in the "Others" rank. There's quite obviously little reason to consider "The Apple Computer Level", though, bringing it down to 10 possible levels.
Very straightforward here. I can't think of any reason to immediately exclude any of the levels in this one, possibly we will find some when we do some more in-depth cutting.
Ignoring the special graphics levels, there's 7 in Covox and 15 in Prima. A lot of them (especially from Covox) are poor quality, but now is not the point in time to make decisions regarding quality of levels.
2 Xmas91 + 4 Xmas92 + 64 Holiday 93 / 94. If we want to avoid mixing "Xmas-y" levels in, we could consider remaking some of them in the snow set. However, perhaps it's a better idea to simply leave Holiday out of it.
So, we have 308 levels to choose from (378 if we include Holiday Lemmings). Chances are we'll probably trim the list a bit further, so some fairly "nice-looking" numbers we could aim for are:
300 levels - (15 ranks x 20 levels) or (10 ranks x 30 levels) or (6 ranks x 50 levels) or (5 ranks x 60 levels)
280 levels - (14 ranks x 20 levels) or (7 ranks x 40 levels)
275 levels - (11 ranks x 25 levels)
270 levels - (9 ranks x 30 levels)
250 levels - (10 ranks x 25 levels) or (5 ranks x 50 levels)
One advantage of the 270 levels across 9 ranks option is we don't need to invent any new rank names (or pick and choose which ones to keep) - we can just combine those from Orig and OhNo; some decision as to the ordering may still be needed.
EDIT: It appears I somewhat miscounted. I used more advanced methods to get a count of useful levels (read: actually put all the candidates into an NXP, looked through and removed obvious problem ones at a glance, used a duplicate file checker on an image dump to look for any duplicates I missed), and also removed a Genesis level that had much the same problem as Tricky 28 (I forget the position, but the name was "Stray Sheep" I think, and it was in Sunsoft).
The end result is - 296 levels. Of course, this is without taking into account that we may want to re-introduce some other duplicates, though I do think we should be very selective about it.
EDIT: General opinion is in favor of including Holiday, so we now have 366 levels to consider (and that's without taking into account how repeats may be treated).
I've looked through the levels, and given a rough division of them into ranks.
I've listed this as 5 ranks so far; I know that isn't an ideal target (and nor is it very balanced between them; some have way more levels than others), but it's easier for me to mentally divide them up this way. Note that I haven't paid very much attention to the order withink a rank, but mostly just put each level either at the start, at the end, or occasionally roughly in the middle. The finer details can come later. Also note, for the overwhelming majority I've gone from memory here. There's only a few where I actually re-played the level while deciding this. So, especially for those I haven't played as extensively (read: everything that isn't DOS / Amiga Orig), chances are this isn't optimal. This is why feedback is needed!
So I guess, as usual, this is a starting point.
I've also added comments with some levels.
Note that this list is assuming no backroute fixes, but generally ignoring time limits in levels where the time limit is likely to be removed.
-== Rank 1 ==-
(Training Levels)
Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming
(All of Tame)
Let's Block And Blow (or, Bomboozal?)
Lock Up Your Lemmings
Bridge Away
A Beast Of A Level
Dark Dawn
Digger Conversions
SEGA One
Catch More Floaters
SEGA Two
SEGA Five <--- probably needs a name change, 3 and 4 come later
Alternate Route
This Should Be A Doddle
Animal or Vegetable?
All The 6's
Let's Go To The Moon
Where Do You See Lemmings?
Lemming Excavation
Ohayou Lemming-San
Livin' On The Edge
MENACING!
Rainbow Island
Through The Graveyard
Walk The Web Rope
What An Awesome Level!
A BeastII Of A Level
How Do We Get Down There?
JackLemmings
Natural Life
Let Me Get Out Of Here
Darkness of the Royal Family
Rules To Fall
Inside The Bone
Libra <--- maybe use Part 2 instead?
Turn Around And Look
Here Is Mr. Lemming's House
Let's Go Camping
-== Rank 2 ==-
Cave Quest <--- maybe remove. very reliant on hidden traps.
Doomsday
Spiral Staircase
Everyone Turn Left (Part 2) <--- do note that Part 1 is among the not included levels, maybe rename?
A Trap Is A Trap
Like An Overflowing Wave
Balance Beam
Watch Your Step (Part 2) <--- probably needs a name change, Part 1 comes later
Lemmings Standing On The Earth
Which Way Do We Go?
Dolly Dimple? <--- probably needs a name change
The Pipeline
Lots Of Steel Crates
Don't Leave Any Lemmings
SEGA Three
The Island Of The Wicker People
Going Their Seperate Ways
For Every Lemming, Turn Turn
Konnichiwa Lemming-San
Tightrope City
On The Antarctic Coast
Bridge Delay
Luvly Jubly
It's Lemmingentry Watson
One Way Digging To Freedom
Turn Around Young Lemmings
The Crankshaft
From The Boundary Line
Cascade
Salvage Boat
Let's Go Sledding
I Have A Cunning Plan
Many Lemmings Make Level Work
24-Hour Lemathon
Lemming Friendly
Something Weighing On Your Mind?
It's A Trade Off
Time Waits For No Lemming
Across The Gap
Digging For Victory
Ice Ice Lemming
Watch Out, There's Traps About
The Prison
The Art Gallery
Perserverance
Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy
X Marks The Spot
Tribute To M.C. Escher
Feel The Heat
Take A Running Jump
Follow The Leader
Call In The Bomb Squad
How Do I Dig Up The Way?
The Bridge Is Breaking Down
No Choice But To Follow Them
Watch Right Or Left
SEGA Four (or - Mayhem version, in a later rank?)
IceTown
Oh No! Squish.
Pop Your Top!
Lemming Hotel
Lemming Rhythms
Ice Station Lemming
The Chain With No Name
Dr Lemminggood
Lemmingdelica
Pop Till You Drop!
Suicidal Tendancies
Almost Nearly Virtual Reality
The Lemming Learning Curve
Don't Leave My Lemmings
Where Are You Heading? <--- perhaps its earlier repeat should be used instead?
Anxiety
-== Rank 3 ==-
Two Heads Are Better
Move On In Two Seperate Groups
No World Without You <--- use earlier repeat instead?
King Of Lemmings
Lemmings-Preying Iron Plate
Evil Whisper
No Time For A Detour
Highland Fling
Welcome To The Party, Pal
Creature Discomforts
Tubular Lemmings
Don't Make The Wrong Choice
Two Different Worlds
The Fast Food Kitchen
Curse of the Pharoahs
Pillars of Hercules
We All Fall Down (Mayhem version)
The Far Side
Spam Spam Egg and Lemming
Oh No! It's The Fourth Dimension!
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility
Vacation in Gemland
Snow Joke
It's A Tight Fit
Just A Quicky
Meeting Adjourned
One Way To Freedom
Watch Your Fingertip
Value Each Moment
Lemmings Search For Treasure
Temporary Peace
Triple Trouble
Come On Over To My Place
The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Lend A Helping Hand
If At First You Don't Succeed
Don't Follow Me <--- note: is a duplicate that slipped under the radar ("Climb and fall. Fall and climb.")
Go For It
Postcard from Lemmingland
Lemming Lament
King Of The Castle
Quote: "That's A Good Level"
Lemming Express
The Stack
Keep On Trucking!
No Problem
Heaven Can Wait (We Hope)
Compression Method 1
Every Lemming For Himself
Mary Poppins' Land
Poor Wee Creatures
You Take The High Road
Ice Spy
Got Anything... Lemmingy?
Introducing SuperLemming
Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral
A Towering Problem
How On Earth?
Rocky Road
Lots More Where They Came From
The Lemming Funhouse
Steel Works
The Crossroads
Last One Out Is A Rotten Egg
Stepping Stones
And Then There Were Four
Have A Nice Day
The Steel Mines Of Kessel
Over The Wall
No Hurry, Relax
Old MacDonald Had A Farm
Now Get Out Of That!
Flow Control
Synchronised Lemming
Have An Ice Day
Look Before You Leap
Fix The Road, Quick!
None title
Try Anything Once
Which One Are You Trying To Get?
Watch Your Step
Is This A Circus?
Water Processing Plant
Haunted Botanical Garden
Be Sure To Be A Builder
-== Rank 4 ==-
Watch Right Or Left (Part 2) <--- although we have part 1, they seem barely related, change name?
Train Your Body
Precarious Oasis
Electric Circuit
Looks A Bit Nippy Out There
Lemmings In A Situation
AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
It's The Price You Have To Pay
Be More Than Just A Number
Two Ponds
Rendezvous At The Mountain
Mind The Step
Going Up
One Way Or Another
Down, Along, Up. In That Order.
The Boiler Room
Up, Down or Round and Round
Five Alive
Temple Of Love
Chill Out!
The Silence Of The Lemmings
Onward and Upward
Mutiny on the Bounty
Higgeldy Piggeldy
Lemming Head
Watch Your Step!
It's Not Over Til It's Over
Dolly Dimple
And Now, The End Is Near
Rocky VI
Worra Load Of Old Blocks
Don't Panic
Upside Down World
Jump Down
Take Care, Sweetie
Down The Tube
Poles Apart
The Great Lemming Caper
Just A Minute
Just A Minute (Part 2)
Just A Minute (Part 3) <--- do we really want all three parts?
With A Twist Of Lemming Please
Save Me
Let's Get Together
Scaling The Heights
Everyone's A Hard Nut
The Gate Trap Lemmings
-== Rank 5 ==-
I Am A.T. <--- I'd like to remove this one but I get the feeling that preference will be strongly opposed
Out, Away From The Tune
Evacuating A Coal Mine
Underground City
Pitfall
Where Lemmings Dare
It's All A Matter Of Timing
Lemming About Town
The Race Against Cliches
There's Madness In The Method
Climb and fall. Fall and climb. <--- is a duplicate that slipped under the radar ("Don't follow me.")
It's Hero Time
This Corrosion
Fall And No Life
No Added Colors Or Lemmings
Lemmings' Ark
Private Room Available
Final Impediment
Fall And No Life (Part 2)
-== Probably Remove =--
No Problemming! <--- stupid
Hunt The Nessy <--- boring and buildery
SEGA Five <--- much easier than either version of SEGA Four, and possibly the other three too
Heaven Can Wait II <-- virtually the same as the standard version, but easier
Wild World Of Lemmings <--- boring and buildery
Winter Lemmingland <--- relies on hidden traps for difficulty
Pea Soup <-- boring and buildery
Time To Get Up <-- most difficulty comes from bomber timing. May be better to include "Lemmings in the Attic" as an easy level.
Congratulations! <--- out of place if not final level, and definitely not suitable for final level
Here are the full list of levels that made it past the first round in their respective voteoffs. We can use this as a starting point.
I've bolded any levels where both versions of a level with repeats are in here; though it's quite possible I may have missed some in Genesis's case.
Also note that the voteoff didn't include the Sega Master System levels. However, if we are picking and choosing, I'd think that unless we need some extra easy levels, only SEGA Four is really worth considering (probably the Mayhem version, but it could go either way).
(All levels are standard Amiga version unless otherwise mentioned.)
Fun 09 "As long as you try your best"
Fun 10 "Smile if you love lemmings"
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 20 "We are now at LEMCON ONE"
Fun 22 "A Beast of a level"
Fun 22 (Budget Amiga) "Go for it!"
Fun 24 "Konbanwa Lemming san"
Fun 26 "Nightmare on Lem street"
Fun 27 "Let's be careful out there"
Fun 28 "If only they could fly"
Tricky 04 "Here's one I prepared earlier"
Tricky 06 "Lemmingology"
Tricky 09 "They just keep on coming"
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 12 "Bitter Lemming"
Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Seperate Ways"
Tricky 21 (SNES) "Ohayo Lemming San"
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 28 "Lost something?"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 03 "Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 07 "Every Lemming for himself!!!"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 16 "Mary Poppins' land"
Taxing 18 "Tribute to M.C.Escher"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Taxing 29 "How do I dig up the way?"
Mayhem 01 "Steel Works"
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 06 "One way or another"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 09 "Curse of the Pharaohs"
Mayhem 10 "Pillars of Hercules"
Mayhem 12 "The Far Side"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 26 "The Steel Mines of Kessel"
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Mayhem 30 "Rendezvous at the Mountain"
(Levels from ranks other than Present or Sunsoft are referred to here by their position in the Extra Levels NXP / Extra Levels Lemmix player. Remakes of ONML levels are struck out, though this doesn't mean we can't decide to use the Genesis variant instead - but we definitely don't want to use both.)
Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 11 "Where do you see Lemmings?"
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 22 "Temporary peace"
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 29 "Lunch time"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 09 "Fix the road, quick!"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 25 "Underground city"
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 27 "Try anything once."
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Present 30 "Final impediment"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 14 "No world without you"
Sunsoft 15 "Exodus!"
Sunsoft 18 "SUNSOFT Special"
Sunsoft 19 "Let's go camping."
Sunsoft 20 "Haunted botanical garden"
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"
Notes on repeats:
- Genesis 37 / Present 22 are two different (though somewhat similar) puzzles on the same layout, rather than the usual X-of-everything filler level situation
Crazy 01 "Quote: "That`s a good level""
Crazy 02 "Dolly Dimple"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And now, the end is near..."
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Wild 01 "PoP YoR ToP!!!"
Wild 03 "Lemming Rhythms"
Wild 05 "Lemming Head"
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take the High Road"
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny On The Bounty"
Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Wild 15 "THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS"
Wild 16 "Take care, Sweetie"
Wicked 01 "LeMming ToMato KetchUp fAcilitY"
Wicked 02 "Inroducing SUPERLEMMING"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TiL YoU DrOp!"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral"
Wicked 08 "A TOWERING PROBLEM"
Wicked 10 "Temple of Love"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down the tube"
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Havoc 02 "Be more than just a number"
Havoc 03 "It`s the price you have to pay"
Havoc 04 "The race against cliches"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming about town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It`s all a matter of timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 17 "Where Lemmings Dare"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks a Bit Nippy Out There"
X92 03 "A Lemming Holiday"
X92 04 "The North Poles"
H93 Flurry 05 "Christmas South of the Equator"
H93 Flurry 08 "Vacation in Gemland"
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 12 "Presents of Mind"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H93 Blitz 04 "Santus Lemmingus"
H93 Blitz 08 "Presents of Mind II"
H93 Blitz 13 "The Final Frontier"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H94 Frost 04 "Separate Ways"
H94 Frost 06 "The Land of the Bizarre"
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 04 "Lemmintaschen?"
H94 Hail 05 "Get the Point?"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze"
H94 Hail 13 "Polar Expedition"
H94 Hail 14 "Rendezvous II"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"
H94 Hail 16 "Peak of Performance"
Covox Tricky 02 "Lots of Steel crates!"
Covox Taxing 01 "IceTown"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Tricky 01 "The Prima Publishing Level"
Prima Tricky 04 "The Pipeline"
Prima Taxing 03 "Oh No! Squish."
Prima Mayhem 01 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 03 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
Some other levels I would argue for including:
- The training levels, for obvious reasons.
- One version of We All Fall Down. Yes, it's annoying when repeated 4 times; but a single version on its own, especially if one of the later ones, could be a nice addition.
- One version of SEGA Four, as mentioned above
- All The 6's. For obvious reasons. :P (Perhaps in place of Ohayo Lemming San; the latter is basically just a less "offensive" but longer and more boring version of the former)
- Some Tame levels (no specific ones in mind), we're probably going to need some more easy ones.
The above list brings us to 181 levels, not including the Genesis remakes of ONML levels, but including both variants of repeats.
Adding the training levels to this brings it to 188. Also including my above suggestions of specific levels brings this up to 190, taking into account that All The 6's would probably replace Ohayo Lemming San in the list. So, if we can pick 10 Tame levels, we have our initial list; of course, we'll want to refine it a bit from there (I think we should decide on our list before trying to order it). We'd then also need to make decisions in regards to which pair of repeats to keep - and what levels to add in their places, unless we go for less than 200 for the total count (6 ranks x 30 levels = 180 levels is a nearby option) - but like I said, the goal is an initial list here, not the final one. :P
My votes for Tame levels would be:
- Tame 1 "Down and Out Lemmings"
- Tame 4 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
- Tame 8 "Dangerzone"
- Tame 9 "And Now This..."
- Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
- Tame 11 "With Compliments"
- Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
- Tame 13 "Thunder Lemmings Are Go"
- Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
- Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
In the event we do decide the need for adding extra levels in place of repeats, one level I would personally push quite strongly for is "It's Not Over Til It's Over" (Budget Amiga, Taxing 15). Another one I'd quite quickly put forward (although perhaps not as quickly) is Vacation In Gemland (DOS H93). That level's already in there, I forgot the voteoffs were based on the DOS versions. xD
EDIT: I just counted now. Excluding Twins / None title, we have to remove 12 levels if we want to be repeat-free-except-the-training-levels, or 11 if we also allow the repeat in Fun 11's case (since it can somewhat also serve as a training level). Add one more to that if we also consider Just A Minute and its Part 2 to be a repeat of each other for the purpose of this. (In the case of Fall And No Life, I'd say the two versions are different enough that they shouldn't be considered repeats of each other.)
In regards to PSP levels, while there are indeed some good levels in there, one key thing to keep in mind is they never saw release on an L1 or very-L1-like engine. To me, including them would be comparable to if we were to, say, include some of the Classic Tribe levels from L2. Sure, there may be good levels among them, but I don't think it's right for this project...
Well one thing I've noticed already is "Wild 13 Onward and Upwards" is both in Rank 3 and Rank 5 so it appears on the list twice (I feel that level is better in Rank 5 with the 3:00 time limit intact otherwise it is a Rank 3 with an increased or no time limit)
Wild 4 Meeting Adjourned I feel is too hard to be a Rank 2 (100% and hard to contain lemmings), can easily swap with Higgledy Piggledy in Rank 3 (lax save requirement, simpler solution).
Wicked 18 Lots More Where They Came From would be better in Rank 4, swap with Crazy 2 Dolly Dimple and bring that to Rank 3.
Havoc 9 ARGH! could easily move down to Rank 4, I found this to be easy for a Havoc level.
Taxing 6 Compression Method 1 should move up from Rank 2, that level was a brick wall for me back in the early days for me!
Taxing 26 Triple Trouble - How is this even a Rank 2? Rank 4 easily I'd say.
Crazy 17 - Digging for Victory - Again like Onwards or Upwards, it needs to move up from Rank 2 if the 3:00 time limit remains otherwise it can stay in Rank 2.
Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts - This level is very hard for a Rank 2 level and would be better off in Rank 4 or even Rank 5!
Havoc 6 - Now Get Out of That, this level could possibly move down to Rank 3 from Rank 4.
Taxing 18 - Tribute to MC Escher - Possible move from Rank 2 to Rank 3, not an easy one to work out and too close to Fun 11 which is it's repeat.
Taxing 21 - Feel The Heat - This level I feel is also a little too hard for a Rank 2.
Hail 10 - Lemmy in the Cold Cold Ground - Also feel this level is too hard for a Rank 2, this one is possibly the hardest Holiday Lemmings level in my opinion. Definitely should be up in Rank 4 with Emmings! (No L)
MENACING and AWESOME should be swapped I feel, Don't feel like MENACING is harder than AWESOME.
This is only my opinion though and can only really comment on Original, Holiday and OHNO.
Nonetheless, well done namida for sorting them into more equal numbered ranks
EDIT: Spoiler tagged my suggestions for rank movement since it seems we're not quite ready for that stage yet.
Not a bad idea, but maybe we should simplify that and categorise which levels are "tutorial", "easy" and "normal" levels before we can sort them out into difficulty ratings. At the moment, we have 8 tutorial levels (Including Fun 11). "Easy" levels are those levels with many-of-each skill, and a lenient percentage requirement. We have about 25 of them (Though I might consider "Rendezvous At the Mountain" an Easy level as well despite the layout). The others are considered "normal" levels. Here's the list of "Easy" levels.
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Genesis 11 "Where do you see Lemmings?"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 13 "Thunder Lemmings Are Go"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Fun 22 "A Beast of a level"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 15 “What an AWESOME level!”
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 14 “Menacing!”
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 28 "Lost something?"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Hey, I'm glad that there are some people still interested in this. During the rather inactive period I've already compiled a list of 150 levels that I feel should be included in the redux. Because this list is so long, I've collapsed them into separate lists of different games. I've compared my list to Nepster's suggestions and have bolded the levels that he considered controversial.
Fun 1 “Just Dig!”
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 2 “Only Floaters Can Survive This”
Fun 21 “You Live and Lem”
Fun 27 “Let's be careful out there”
Fun 3 “Tailor-Made For Blockers”
Fun 4 “Now use miners and climbers”
Fun 5 “A task for bombers”
Fun 6 “You need bashers this time”
Fun 7 “Builders will help you here”
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute... (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"
Crazy 01 "Quote That's A Good Level"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And Now the end is near"
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time Waits for No Lemming"
Crazy 15 “Worra Load Of Old Blocks”
Crazy 16 “Across The Gap”
Crazy 19 “Don’t Panic”
Havoc 04 "The Race Against Cliches"
Havoc 05 "There's Madness in the Method"
Havoc 06 “Now Get Out Of That!”
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming About Town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It's All A Matter Of Timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a Situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks A Bit Nippy Out There"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Wicked 01 "LeMing ToMato KetchUp fAcility"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill Out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TIL YoU DrOp"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming to Lemming Central"
Wicked 08 "A Towering Problem"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down The Tube"
Wicked 18 “Lots More Where They Came From”
Wicked 19 “Up, Down or Round And Round”
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Wild 01 “Pop Yor Top”
Wild 04 “Meeting Adjourned”
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take The High Road"
Wild 08 “It’s A Tight Fit”
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Wild 13 "Onward and Upward"
Wild 15 "The Silence of the Lemmings"
Wild 20 “Got Anything... Lemmingy?”
Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
H93 Flurry 8 "Vacation in Gemland"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 19 "Acrophobia"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"
Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Separate Ways"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Mayhem 1 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
Prima Taxing 3 "Oh No! Squish."
X92 4 "The North Poles"
BTW whether we should include it or not "Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.
So, here's what I'm getting from the posts since my last list (just focusing on levels for now, not difficulty):
Minim
-----
Full list:
Fun 1 “Just Dig!”
Fun 2 “Only Floaters Can Survive This”
Fun 3 “Tailor-Made For Blockers”
Fun 4 “Now use miners and climbers”
Fun 5 “A task for bombers”
Fun 6 “You need bashers this time”
Fun 7 “Builders will help you here”
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 21 “You Live and Lem”
Fun 27 “Let's be careful out there”
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Separate Ways"
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute... (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Crazy 01 "Quote That's A Good Level"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And Now the end is near"
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time Waits for No Lemming"
Crazy 15 “Worra Load Of Old Blocks”
Crazy 16 “Across The Gap”
Crazy 19 “Don’t Panic”
Wild 01 “Pop Yor Top”
Wild 04 “Meeting Adjourned”
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take The High Road"
Wild 08 “It’s A Tight Fit”
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Wild 13 "Onward and Upward"
Wild 15 "The Silence of the Lemmings"
Wild 20 “Got Anything... Lemmingy?”
Wicked 01 "LeMing ToMato KetchUp fAcility"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill Out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TIL YoU DrOp"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming to Lemming Central"
Wicked 08 "A Towering Problem"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down The Tube"
Wicked 18 “Lots More Where They Came From”
Wicked 19 “Up, Down or Round And Round”
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Havoc 04 "The Race Against Cliches"
Havoc 05 "There's Madness in the Method"
Havoc 06 “Now Get Out Of That!”
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming About Town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It's All A Matter Of Timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a Situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks A Bit Nippy Out There"
Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 19 "Acrophobia"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"
Other 11 "Vacation in Gemland"
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Taxing 3 "Oh No! Squish."
Prima Mayhem 1 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
X92 4 "The North Poles"
Nepster
-------
ADD
Fun 12 (Patience): Easy level, which teaches high RR.
Fun 21 (You live and Lem): Again an easy level, which is much more interesting than the Tame levels.
Fun 27 (Let's be careful out there): Same here.
Tricky 5 (Careless clicking costs lives): Not as good as the previous two, but still superior to the Tames.
Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup):
Crazy 13 (It's a trade off): Nice relatively simple idea.
Wild 2 (Lemming Hotel): Lots of skills and many different easy obstacles. Good level to transition from introduction levels to more advanced stuff.
Wild 12 (SNOW JOKE): Lots of different easy obstacles again.
H93 Flurry 11 (At Home in a Cave): If you another candidate to replace the Tame levels with...
H93 Flurry 12 (Presents of Mind): Another simple level, that is better than the Tames.
H94 Blizzard 1 (Oogilemming!): Not the best level ever, but certainly better than Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land).
Genesis 23 (No choice but to follow them): Nice level of medium difficulty.
Genesis 39 (Climb and Fall, Fall and Climb): Good level idea, that doesn't really appear in any other level.
Present 4 (Lemmings standing on the earth): Lots of skills, not too long and not trivial either. (Only if traps made visible or removed)
Sega 5 (SEGA Five): One of the best levels to replace the tame stuff.
PSP 14 (Tunnel Vision): Very smart level idea.
PSP 18 (The run around): The little sister of Lemming Caper.
PSP 24 (With a little help from my Lem): Another very good level with only two lemmings.
PSP 26 (Back of the net): Very unique level idea.
PSP 35 (No justice for the hero): Multiple solutions, none of the straight-forward.
REMOVE
Fun 22 (Beast of a level): Even if it is a VGASpec, this level is boring to play.
Tricky 11 (Lemmings in the attic): Builder-heavy and uninteresting.
Tricky 23 (From The Boundary Line): "Cascade" is superior in every aspect, so this level doesn't give anything new. Note that the easy version Fun 12 is in the list to be added.
Tricky 28 (Lost something?): Totally uninteresting with no replay-value at all!
Taxing 3 (Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)): Builder-heavy. Caging the lemmings without blockers can be learned in other levels as well.
Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery): Worse than first version of this level, Tricky 5, which I noted to be included instead. Stright-forward solution to an easy level. So if should be a proper easy level with more skills.
Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land): Way too much building. Perhaps replace with H93 Blizzard 1.
Taxing 21 (Feel the heat!): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
Taxing 27 (Call in the bomb squad): Genesis 17 (which is included as well) has the same idea and is not only constant repetition of "block-bomb-build".
Taxing 29 (How do I dig up the way?): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
Mayhem 1 (Steel Works): WTF??? Builder-heavy, a non-obvious spatting fall at the beginning and the very real possibility to be one or two builders short at the end.
Mayhem 9 (Curse of the Pharaohs): There are much better replacements out there, see suggestions for inclusions.
Mayhem 11 (We all fall down): NeoLemmix has rendered this level totally trivial and uninteresting.
Mayhem 16 (Just a Minute...): Part 2 suffices. The first level does not add any additional value.
Mayhem 30 (Rendezvous at the Mountain): Boooring!
Tame 9-14: All of them totally uninteresting. The remaining two tame levels are more than enough. See my suggestions for other easy levels below.
Crazy 17 (DIGGING FOR VICTORY): Apart from a terribly tight time limit, this is very straight-forward with obvious placement of skills and not much replay value.
Wild 3 (Lemming Rhythms): Does this add anything new?
Wild 5 (Lemming Head): Does this add anything new?
Wild 7 (You Take the High Road): In principal an acceptable level. However the great amount of scrolling required kills all the fun.
Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING): As gimmicks get removed, this becomes an extremely boring level.
Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!): As one can simply ignore two hatches, this essentially is a repeat of Wild 1. So this adds nothing to the level pack.
Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): The straight-forward bottom path is just terribly annoying. Either modify the level to remove this path or remove the level altogether.
Wicked 19 (Up, Down or Round and Round): Pixel-precise placement of builders AND a hidden trap :devil::devil::devil:
Havoc 6 (Now get out of that!): Wicked 5 (Chill out!) is far superior.
Havoc 11 (Welcome to the party, pal!): Tedious to the extreme!
Havoc 16 (Scaling the Heights): Not a bad level per se, only very fiddly. There are much better stuff to choose from.
H94 Hail 1 (Go Thataway!): Crazy 7 is just superior.
H94 Hail 6 (Surprise Package?): On No, more nuke abuse!
H94 Hail 12 (Merry Christmaze): Just build at the top... So why have this level? The idea might be nice, but no like this!
Present 22 (None title): The first version of this level is excellent, but this one? Simply uninteresting compared to that.
Present 25 (Underground city): Not a really bad level, just a very mediocre level. The first solution that comes to the mind is not really nice and clean.
Present 29 (Private Rooms Available): Pixel-precise nonsense.
Present 30 (Final impediment): Does this add anything new?
Sunsoft 9 (Evacuating a Coal Mine): Does this add anything new?
Sunsoft 18 (Sunsoft Special): Far uglier than all other VGASpecs and most normal levels as well. Furthermore totally boring and absolutely trivial.
Sunsoft 27 (Two heads are better): I don't see any value in this level any more, now that we have untimed bomber.
Proxima
-------
ADD
Fun 12: "Patience" Agreement with Nepster
Fun 21: "You Live And Lem" Agreement with Minim and Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
Fun 27: "Let's be careful out there" Agreement with Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
Tricky 5: "Careless Clicking Costs Lives" Agreement with Nepster
Tame 5: "Snuggle Up To A Lemming" Introduces steel
Present 19: "Acrophobia". Agreement with Minim
REMOVE
Tricky 23: "From The Boundary Line" Agreement with Nepster
Taxing 8: "The Art Gallery" Agreement with Nepster
Taxing 29: "How Do I Dig Up The Way?" Agreement with Nepster
Mayhem 11: "We All Fall Down" Agreement with Nepster
< Most of Tame, apart from 1, 4, 5 >
Crazy 17: "DIGGING FOR VICTORY" Agreement with Nepster
Wicked 18: "LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom" Agreement with Nepster
Wicked 19: "Up, Down or Round and Round" Agreement with Nepster
Havoc 6: "Now get out of that!" Agreement with Nepster
Havoc 11: "Welcome to the party, pal!" Agreement with Nepster
Hail 1: "Go Thataway!" Agreement with Nepster
Hail 12: "Merry Christmaze" Agreement with Nepster
Present 22: "None title" Agreement with Nepster
Present 25: "Underground city" Agreement with Nepster
Sunsoft 27: "Two heads are better" Agreement with Nepster[/tt]
Have I missed anything, or are there any comments on any of the suggestions here?
Assuming we're still dividing levels into ranks, I don't think we have enough easy levels to fill a rank; however, I'd have to go through the games to see if there are any specifically that should be added, since a decent number of them (e.g. most of Tame) would just end up being padding.
In regards to the current list of Tame levels:
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings" - No opinion. It's a very easy level, but it's also the first one in ONML. If we use it, it should probably be directly following the tutorial levels, as the first level to give you options on what skills to choose.
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" - This is probably the best level in the Tame set, so we should keep this one. It's similar to the blocker tutorial level, but it gives options to save 100% if you want.
Tame 08 "Dangerzone" - I think this one could be a good level with some minor modifications. If we increased the release rate enough so that lemmings would definitely turn around it would make a good level to teach crowd control.
Tame 09 "And Now This..." - Probably redundant with a combination of Down and Out Lemmings (Tame 1) and Builders Will Help You Here (Fun 7). It's basically an easier version of Fun 7 that also gives you the option of bashing through the last obstacle instead of building over it.
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block" - It's a bit unnecessarily large, but that's not hard to fix. It could be a good level to introduce using digging tools to avoid splatting, but that would probably require removing the first obstacle (as bashers going through have a pretty good chance of just continuing to bash, which eliminates having to worry about that drop at all).
Tame 11 "With Compliments" - I feel like this is redundant with Tame 1.
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming" - This could be an alternative to You Need Bashers This Time, but I don't feel like it's good for much else.
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help" - I feel like it could be a good early crowd control level with a higher release rate.
For Just A Minute: The levels are fairly similar, but I'd suggest keeping Part 1 over Part 2, as they are similar difficulty conceptually, but Part 2 is just a little more annoying to execute. Being able to easily pause buffer in NeoLemmix makes it more bearable, but I think it would be better to use the one that's more easily completed without it.
Unless I just did something really weird that happened to work last time I played Part 2, which is entirely possible
As for VGASpecs, I'd suggest going all-or-nothing on them; specifically, I'd suggest removing all of them.
They were originally one per rank and I feel like having, like, one or two remaining would feel out of place.
Besides, they all have trivial solutions and the only thing that makes the later ones harder than the earlier ones is that there's more junk terrain for builders to get stuck on in AWESOME, and, in the context of NeoLemmix the fact that some terrain that LOOKS solid in Beast II isn't (under the original game's mechanics, you can also add having to quickly assign a builder to a basher; pause buffering is easier in NeoLemmix so I don't think this applies anymore).
MENACING and Beast 1 are about equally difficult, and are both boring levels (although Beast 1 does at least look pretty, so there's that).
Don't know if any ports have any of their own VGASpec-type levels, so I can't comment about any in ports.
The Extra rank is still present as we still seem to still have discussions as to whether 'Fix the Road Quick' should be included.
Well, looks like Proxima's provided a solid counterargument with 'Fix the Road, Quick' so maybe we should keep this in, even though I'm not a fan of this level myself. Out of the twelve levels in the bonus rank, I think 'Worra load of old blocks' could be brought back, even though there're hidden traps.
The digging down the narrow wall twice concept is rather interesting and unique compared to other levels, unless I'm mistaken for another level.
Since I've done a lot of griping in the past about the project moving on before I'd finished giving my input, I'd like to mention that today I had another look at the entire pack, and I'm very happy with the current selection of levels. (I also agree, now that bsmith has pointed it out, that "Turn around young lemmings" is worth including because of its interesting dual solution, with bombers or builders.) There are a couple of my favourite levels that haven't made it in, such as "Temporary peace" and "One way or another", but honestly, I wouldn't advocate re-including those at the expense of any of the current selection.
A couple of isolated thoughts....
"Lemming toast" (currently 1-29) is an easy level with several solutions, and that's fine. Still, I wonder whether it originally had a time limit that was part of the puzzle? [EDIT: The original time limit was 4 minutes, and all solutions fit into this. We could have a talisman for solving it in 1 minute.]
"Five Alive" is much easier with NL mechanics, so it should be down-ranked, but it's still worth including.
Bombing at the edge of the steel destroys the normal terrain but none of the steel, creating a sharp edge.
"Fall and no life" (both parts) could do with slightly enlarging so the pillar pieces aren't sharply cut off by the left edge. This wouldn't have any impact on the solution(s).
Although I am in favor of reducing the number of lemmings, I don't agree with those blanket reductions based on just their original numbers. Here are some reasons:
- Some reductions may add backroutes, e.g. in "No added colors and lemmings".
- Some reductions may prevent some solutions, e.g. in "I have a cunning plan".
- In some levels, the number of lemmings in the hatch after finishing the route to the exit might still be considerable.
- Some reductions may now allow to ignore one or more hatches, where previously lemmings from all hatches have to be saved.
(Note that I haven't looked at namida's version whether the last one occurs or not.)
I just played through the whole Redux pack in the version namida attached to post #253. Here is a list of lemmings number, that I would personally change, together with the number of lemmings spawned after I finished building the route to the exit. The numbers are displayed as "save requirement / total number of lemmings".
Fun 3: 5/20 instead of 5/50
Fun 5: 5/20 instead of 5/50
Fun 6: 5/20 instead of 10/50
Fun 7: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 8: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 9: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 10: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 11: 15/20 instead of 75/80
Fun 12: 30/40 instead of 50/60
Fun 13: 18/20 instead of 48/50 (spawns all)
Fun 14: 12/20 or 22/30 instead of 42/50
Fun 15: 20/50 instead of 20/100 (allow at least 20 lems to die)
Fun 16: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns all)
Fun 18: 15/30 instead of 60/100
Fun 19: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 20: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~30)
Fun 21: 29/30 instead of 99/100
Fun 23: 15/20 instead of 75/80
Fun 24: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~40)
Fun 25: 16/20 instead of 56/60 (spawns ~30)
Fun 27: 20/20 instead of 40/40 (spawns ~25)
Fun 28: 20/30 instead of 90/100
Tricky 2: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns ~50)
Tricky 4: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (why need any more??)
Tricky 6: 20/20 instead of 50/50
Tricky 8: 10/10 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~7)
Tricky 10: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Tricky 11: 60/60 instead of 100/100 (one solution requires ~50 lemmings)
Tricky 12: 15/20 or 20/25 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 14: 15/20 or 25/30 instead of 75/80 (spawns ~40)
Tricky 15: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 16: 20/30 instead of 70/80 (spawns all)
Tricky 17: 10/20 or 20/30 instead of 50/60 (spawns ~40 until digging)
Tricky 21: 20/30 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~35)
Tricky 23: 33/40 instead of 53/60 (spawns ~10, but needs more lems to avoid saving only some of the hatches)
Tricky 24: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~30)
Tricky 25: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~15)
Tricky 26: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 27: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~35)
Tricky 30: 40/50 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~20, but needs more lems to avoid saving only some of the hatches)
Wild 1: 20/30 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~65)
Wild 2: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~15)
Wild 5: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild 8: 5/30 instead of 25/50 (spawns ~25, but need 25 to lose)
Wild 9: 5/10 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~7)
Wild 10: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild 11: 19/20 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~20)
Wild 12: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~40)
Wild 14: 29/30 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild 16: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns all)
Wild 17: 18/20 instead of 58/60 (spawns ~40)
Wild 18: 90/90 instead of 100/100 (to fill the upper loop completely)
Wild 20: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (needs last lemming)
Wild 22: 17/20 instead of 47/50 (spawns ~10)
Wild 26: 29/30 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~60)
Wild 27: 14/20 instead of 44/50 (spawns ~20)
Wild 28: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Wild 29: 18/20 instead of 48/50 (spawns ~40)
Mayhem 1: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 2: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 3: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns ~60)
Mayhem 4: 20/20 instead of 75/75 (spawns all)
Mayhem 5: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem 6: 30/30 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 7: 20/20 instead of 70/70 (spawns ~50)
Mayhem 9: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 10: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 11: 16/20 instead of 76/80 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem 12: 20/20 instead of 85/85 (needs last lemming)
Mayhem 13: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~20 without RR change)
Mayhem 15: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 16: 20/30 instead of 85/100 (spawns all)
Mayhem 17: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem 19: 15/15 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~12)
Mayhem 20: 13/40 instead of 83/100 (spawns ~40)
Mayhem 21: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 22: 18/30 instead of 48/60 (spawns ~10)
Mayhem 23: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 24: 15/20 instead of 75/80 (spawns ~40). I guess this reduction allows saving one more lemmings than in the original version by a more precise version of the standard solution.
Mayhem 26: 9/10 instead of 29/30 (spawns ~10)
Mayhem 28: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 29: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~35)
Mayhem 30: 20/50 instead of 70/100 (spawns ~40)
Havoc 4: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc 5: 19/20 instead of 79/80 (spawns ~30)
Havoc 6: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc 8: 20/40 instead of 60/80 (spawns all)
Havoc 9: 20/20 instead of 60/60 (spawns ~30)
Havoc 10: 8/10 instead of 68/70 (spawns ~10)
Havoc 13: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~30)
Havoc 14: 6/10 instead of 46/50 (spawns ~6)
Havoc 15: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~20)
Havoc 17: 20/20 instead of 60/60
Havoc 18: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc 19: 9/10 instead of 29/30 (spawns ~15)
Havoc 20: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns all)
Havoc 21: unsure whether to change at all, perhaps to 34/40?
Havoc 22: 19/20 instead of 49/60 (spawns ~25)
Havoc 23: 28/30 instead of 68/70 (spawns all, but 30 are sufficient to fill to crowd area)
Havoc 25: 30/30 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~40)
Havoc 26: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~8)
Havoc 28: 59/60 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~50)
Havoc 29: 20/40 instead of 80/100 (spawns 90)
Havoc 30: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns all)
And now regarding time limits. I generally would remove even more time limits than namida:
Tricky 8 "Just A Quicky": If we reduce the number of lemmings, then the current time limit does not pose any problems at all. Can anyone show me solutions that are only possible if we remove this time limit? If not, then I prefer to remove the time limit here.
Tricky 28 "Speed Trap": I agree - keep this time limit.
Wild 15 "No Time for a Detour": I agree - keep this time limit.
Wild 21 "Four Play": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 8 "Five Alive": I don't see any way to solve the level using more than one minute. So remove the time limit.
Mayhem 13 "Synchronized Lemmings": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 14 "Just A Minute": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 17 "The Silence of the Lemmings": I, too, don't know what function the time limit has in this level. So I vote to remove.
Mayhem 18 "The race against cliches": I would add this to the list of levels that keep their time limit. Otherwise there is no race at all in this level: The top lemming finishes his work and then the bottom lemmings start...
Mayhem 24 "Onward and Upward": I don't see any reason to keep the time limit here, especially if we reduce the number of lemmings so that the player doesn't has to set the RR to 99. My solution doesn't use any obscure tricks.
Havoc 1 "Its Hero Time": I can see a few additional ways to solve the level without the time limit. Fixing all those would be a major task. Moreover I always thought the title of this level to have a double meaning, one referring to the very tight time limit. So keep this time limit.
Havoc 6 "Lemming About Town": Remove the time limit here. I don't know any reason to keep it.
Havoc 12 "Just A Minute (Part Two)": I agree - keep this time limit.
Havoc 18 "Scaling the Heights": I had roughly one minute left on the clock and don't know of any solutions requiring more time than given. So what is the reason the time limit should stay?
Havoc 24 "Hello John Got A New Lemming": The time limit is very tight, but what function does it serve beyond anoying the player? I vote for removing this time limit.
Havoc 26 "Oh No! Squish": This is another level where reducing the number of lemmings makes the time limit pointless. Currently one has to think about setting the RR to 99 early enough. But is there any solution that requires more time than the given two minutes?
Finally some general comments and questions:
- Fun 9 has lots of space on the left-hand side and the whole playing are is a single screen on the right edge. Should we crop the level a bit?
- Fun 22 has a screen start at the right edge, away from the hatch and exit. This should be changed. Moreover I would prefer enlarging the OWWs to cover the whole terrain piece and not only the middle part. This should just be an aesthetic change.
- Tricky 17 has a wrong screen start position, too.
- Tricky 28: Same problem with the screen start position.
- Havoc 17: Is is intended that one can start digging directly from the starting platform?
- Havoc 22: Give another builder to adapt to stricter builder terrain checks? Currently the level is solvable, but I don't know any nice and elegant solution.
- Havoc 24: Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?
- Havoc 30: Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.
- There are a lot of levels where either the hatch or the exit are not set to no-overwrite, e.g. Fun 30. This creates problems when one wants to build in that area.
In that case we should definitely postpone the question of lemming counts until people have had more time to play through the pack.
Meanwhile, I've looked through to decide how I feel about time limits. Other than the 16 levels already mentioned, I don't see any that would benefit from retaining a time limit, so I think we can concentrate on just those 16.
These levels should definitely keep the time limit, as it's the main point of the level: "No time for a detour", "Four Play", "Synchronized Lemming", "Just a Minute" (both parts), "The race against cliches".
All other levels could do without one. However, some levels certainly had a short time limit chosen for effect. I believe "It's hero time" is one of these, rather than the time limit being intentionally chosen to prevent backroutes (although it's true that the time limit does prevent some solutions that would otherwise work).
My inclination is to keep one-minute time limits (Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time) and time limits that provide a psychological effect of being pressed for time (Scaling the Heights, Hello John). On these levels, it feels that the time limit should not be much annoyance, as it's hard to carry out the correct solution without being in time.
(Note that the title of "Speed Trap" seems not to refer to the time limit, but to having to hurry at the start to keep the crowd under control. So I don't think this is a level where the time limit is important to keep, though I would prefer to keep it.)
There are several 2-minute levels in the pack: Just a Quicky, Twins, Let's get together, The Lemming Funhouse, Watch right or left (Part 2), Scaling the Heights, Oh No! Squish, I am A. T. On most of these, the level actually requires considerably less time so the time limit doesn't really do anything. (This is true of Just a Quicky even with its original lemming count.)
The title of "Just a Quicky" does suggest a short time limit, so an alternative would be to reduce it to one minute. This wouldn't really make it any harder (especially with a reduced lemming count) and it would be a good level for a new player's first introduction to time limits.
Spoilers for ONWARD AND UPWARD:
The "obscure trick" namida referred to is to send up two climbers close together, and bash the thin pole with the first one, starting a step back so its first stroke ends in the middle of the pole, turning the other climber. On the original game, this is the only way to achieve lose-3 (not possible on NL since it also uses the left edge of the level). This trick isn't necessary to finish in time, although without using the trick, I was down to the last second. I don't think the intention was to require this trick, so I would prefer to remove the time limit.
- Fun 9 has lots of space on the left-hand side and the whole playing are is a single screen on the right edge. Should we crop the level a bit?
I'm okay either way on this one. What does everyone else think?
- Havoc 17: Is is intended that one can start digging directly from the starting platform?
Not possible on the DOS / Lemmix version (and thus presumably not Amiga either), so this probably should be fixed.
- Havoc 22: Give another builder to adapt to stricter builder terrain checks? Currently the level is solvable, but I don't know any nice and elegant solution.
When it was first brought up that the direct conversion of this level was impossible, I considered the options to make it possible again, and IIRC I found that an extra builder either made it too easy or added a backroute, so I opted for an extra basher instead.
- Havoc 24: Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?
I thought that too at first. But after I solved the level, I realised that only giving one floater would make the solution a bit less hidden. By requiring them all at the start, it doesn't imply "the worker needs a floater at some point", which hides the solution a bit more.
The time limit here actually works similarly - it prevents a solution where you let the worker continue going then dig down to the left-exit, thus penalizing the player if they bash the OWW at the top too early. This is more subtle, but similar to, how the one at the bottom also shouldn't be bashed too early.
- Havoc 30: Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.
Can confirm it's solvable on V10.13.16 exps, haven't tested on stable but I doubt any of the changes will affect this level.
- There are a lot of levels where either the hatch or the exit are not set to no-overwrite, e.g. Fun 30. This creates problems when one wants to build in that area.
Yes, this should be fixed.
(Spoilery stuff about Onward And Upward)
I actually couldn't think of any other way to solve the level, to be honest.
By the way, to avoid confusion (especially if we change the order later) we may want to either include titles when referring to levels, or refer to them by their original game positions rather than Redux positions. Former is probably a bit more convenient while working on Redux.
For "No Added Colors Or Lemmings", the obvious one may be to instant RR99, bash with the earliest lemming that would result in all lemmings still turning around, then build to cross the gap before the crowd gets back. The most optimal execution of this I can manage on the current version of the level (30 lemmings) still ends up with 5 lemmings falling down. You can reduce this to four by using the usual trick for the end of that level, or to three by simply using the now-spare climbers to delay some of the crowd lemmings, but neither is enough to complete the level.
Yes, I thought one could save even more lemmings this way. Note however that delaying two lemmings by letting them climb on the left-hand side allows even saving 27 lemmings.
Anyway all of this means that while the backroute does not quite work, this is by no means obvious: It would work if the gap was one pixel smaller or if one could delay three more lemmings. So I would really prefer to keep the original 50 lemmings just to make it obvious from the very beginning that this appraoch won't work.
Edit: Proxima was faster ;)
For "I Have A Cunning Plan", I assume you're referring to the solution using the Medi 23 trick? This solution requires at least 42 lemmings; the modified-lemming-count version of this level has 50.
Yes, I refer to the Medi 23 trick, assuming this means
blocking directly below the hatch and then free the blocker with a newly spawned lemming.
Again I would give a little bit more lemmings than the bare minimum, so that less experienced players have no problem executing this solution. As the idea is by no means obvious, I think we should honor them for the idea and not make the execution harder than necessary. So I still vote for 60 instead of 50 lemmings, especially as the level has RR99, i.e. becomes only 3 seconds longer with this change.
- Havoc 24 "Hello John": Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?
I thought that too at first. But after I solved the level, I realised that only giving one floater would make the solution a bit less hidden. By requiring them all at the start, it doesn't imply "the worker needs a floater at some point", which hides the solution a bit more.
The time limit here actually works similarly - it prevents a solution where you let the worker continue going then dig down to the left-exit, thus penalizing the player if they bash the OWW at the top too early. This is more subtle, but similar to, how the one at the bottom also shouldn't be bashed too early.
I don't think giving only one floater is really a big hint.
Regarding the time limit: Fair enough that it prevents one solution, but with the current time limit I cannot first assign all the floaters and then start with the climber, because for this I need at least 5 seconds more. So I already have to assign the climber while lemmings are still spawning, which I dislike. And it prevents the other solution only barely. I attached the screenshot of the last frame when I tried (an optimized version) of the alternative approach.
So overall I am more in favor of changing the level slightly in other ways to make sure that the alternatice approach doesn't work (e.g. removing one basher and one digger from the skill set).
- Havoc 30 "Lemming's Ark": Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.
Can confirm it's solvable on V10.13.16 exps, haven't tested on stable but I doubt any of the changes will affect this level.
Ok, I managed to solve the current level in the stable version, but...
The basher needs to be placed at exactly the correct height to prevent bashing further than one block. So I would stongly suggest enlarging the thin horizontal gap to 4 pixels height instead of only 2 pixels.
I have gotten most of the way through another playthrough of the pack (the version before namida made his proposed lemmings count adjustments).
Often by the time I had effectively completed my solution I either have a bunch of lemmings yet to come out or they have already all come out, very few levels were close. So my thought is for any level with at most 20 lemmings leave it alone. For levels with more than 20 lemmings reduce the count by cutting in half the excess over 20 (equivalently cut the total in half and add 10).
Exceptions I would make to this rule to keep the original count: Patience, I Have a Cunning Plan, Cascade, No Time for a Detour, Just a Minute, It's Hero Time, Which One are You Trying to Get, Just a Minute Part 2. All these levels seem to already have been mentioned already to keep the original counts, plus a few more I don't object to.
I like this idea for setting the lemming counts, but I would also add a step to it:
If 20 lemmings or less:
do nothing
Otherwise:
1/2 number of lemmings
add 10
round to nearest 5
(note: I checked to make sure that cutting the total in half and adding 10 was equivalent to cutting in half the excess over 20, which it is)
Cutting in half the excess over 20 could be written this way:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings - 20)/2)
Rewriting the fraction:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings/2) - 20/2)
Simplify
Total Lemmings = 20 + (number of lemmings/2) - 10
Total Lemmings = 10 + (number of lemmings/2)
So, we had two weeks without any posts; I think we're not going to get much more input and we should push towards final decisions on these issues, preferably one at a time so good points about one issue don't get lost in the discussion of another. Since the last few posts have been about the lemming count issue, how about we tackle that one first? (I'm not trying to take over the leadership role, but I think someone needs to provide a push to keep this moving, so it may sound like that at times.)
Of the five who've input on the issue, everyone is in favour of reductions, so we can go ahead with that. The biggest question is whether to make the initial reductions on the basis of original lemming counts (namida's proposal), or number spawned after building the route (Nepster's proposal); either way there will be individual exceptions.
So far, only Nepster is in favour of the second alternative, and the only reasons he's given amount to "there will need to be individual exceptions", which isn't really an argument either way for which general method to choose.
I strongly favour the first general method, for the following reasons:
* It's more faithful to the original developers' intentions. They chose to work with a maximum of 100 lemmings, to use exactly that number on certain levels, and to use a smaller number on certain other levels. We'd be reducing the maximum to 50 but keeping the relative counts the same (with particular exceptions where necessary).
* Always spawning exactly as many lemmings as can come out in the time taken to build the route feels much too neat and clinical. True, this is what we're doing in the Lix pack, but that's because of a historical accident that doesn't apply to Lemmings. The Lix pack was designed, in its entirety, for an engine that supported variable release rate; this support was then removed. It's been firmly decided that variable release rate is staying in NL.
* Time taken to build the route is variable, as there are often multiple routes. For instance, on "Doomsday", Nepster's proposal for a drastic reduction in lemming count is probably based on a short route by bombing through the one-way wall. But I think we can trust that a player able to come up with an advanced tactic like that also knows how to change the release rate!
(While writing this post, I've played through a lot of the levels where namida's and Nepster's recommendations differ, and I think several of them may be due to Nepster using short routes that newer players wouldn't be expected to find. Others are, quite frankly, baffling; for instance, without steel glitches I can't see any way to do "The Far Side" quickly enough that namida's 40/40 would be a problem.)
So, I think we should keep namida's lemming counts in general (rather than the proposed "half + 10" alternative; I've given my reasons for this in the above post). But there are two groups of levels that should be exceptions: those that need to keep their original count (already discussed), and those where namida's count is much higher than the number spawned while building the route. Also, for the beginning of the pack, where 10 and 30 are the only lemming counts appearing, I prefer to change this to 10 and 20.
So, here's my list of suggested lemming counts, together with namida's for comparison, and Nepster's if it differs from mine. For all levels not listed, I support keeping the count produced by namida's formula:
Tailor-made for blockers: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
You need bashers this time: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
A task for blockers and bombers: 5/20 (n: 10/30)
Builders will help you here: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
All 3 Tame levels: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
A Block from Home: 15/20 (n: 35/40)
Patience: keep original count
Rainbow Island: 29/30 (n: 49/50)
I have a cunning plan: keep original count
Go for it!: keep original count
Cascade: keep original count
Don't leave any Lemmings: 5/30 (n: 15/30)
Acrophobia: 24/25 (n: 49/50; Ne: 19/20)
No time for a detour: keep original count
With a twist of lemming please: 10/10 (n: 30/30, Ne: 20/20)
The gate trap Lemmings: keep original count
Just a Minute...: keep original count
Jump down!: 30/30 (n: 50/50; Ne: 20/20)
It's all a matter of timing: 15/15 (n: 40/40)
No hurry, Relax.: 13/30 (n: 33/50, Ne: 13/40 -- but this must be a typo as lose-27 allows backroutes)
Down the tube: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)
No added colors or Lemmings: keep original count
Anxiety: Just noting this as a level where Nepster's proposal (20/20) is definitely too low as it prevents some good solutions
The Lemming Funhouse: 18/20 (n: 38/40, Ne: 8/10)
Just a Minute (Part Two): keep original count
Watch right or left (Part two): 16/20 (n: 26/30, Ne: 6/10)
Steel Block Party: 20/20 (n: 40/40)
Got anything... Lemmingy?: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)
Lemmy in the cold, cold ground: 30/30 (n: 40/40)
Triple Trouble: 59/60 (n: 49/50)
Assuming Proxima's changes have made to namida's new lemming counts, I still have a few requests for changes, but mostly concerning the save requirements. Only 5 levels where I suggest further reductions, and 2 levels where I want to have more lemmings.
A Beast of a Level (Fun 16): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50, because we want to allow the player to use all bombers/blockers.
Darkness of the Royal family (Fun 24): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. If one does not block at the beginning, the 5 additional lemmings that one may lose make a great difference.
Just A Quicky (Tricky 8): 40 lemmings for this incredibly short level sill feels way too much, especially with the low RR 1. Is there any solution that isn't finished when the 20th lemming appears?
Compression Method 1 (Tricky 22): First of all I would keep the original lemming count of 30/50, instead of 20/30, unless someone can give me a reason for the reduced lemming count? Secondly I disagree with terrain changes here, because this opens a new solution: Dig down below the left-most hatch until the digger hits the steel, then collect the lemmings there and finally free them with another basher. I feel that whatever terrain change we make, freeing the lemmings from the digger hole with the basher should not be possible.
No choice but to follow them (Tricky 25): With the low RR10 and short solution, I still prefer a slightly lower lemming count.
Don't leave any lemmings (Wild 8): Save requirement of 5/30, instead of 15/30. This is a bomber level and we should allow the same amount of bombers than the original version, which is 25.
Electric Circuit (Wild 18): Here I prefer to have more lemmings, because we should not have a gap in the lemmings train in the upper loop. So either keep the original count, or use 80/80.
Worra load of old blocks (Wild 27): I distinctly remember squisher traps in this level! Where have they gone? :lem-shocked:
AAARRRGGGGHHH! (Mayhem 6): Is there any solution where the path to the exit isn't finished by the 21st lemming? If not, then why do we give 30(!) more lemmings in this level? I prefer 30/30 over 50/50.
Rocky Road (Mayhem 9): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. Allowing to lose 10 lemmings makes it possible to use all blockers and then to pass one of the traps with a tight group of lemmings.
Synchronized Lemmings (Mayhem 13): Do we want to force players to set the RR to 99, or not? If not, then we have to reduce the lemming count again.
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility (Mayhem 22): Is there any solution where the fath to the exit is not finished after 20 or even 10 lemmings? If not, then I would prefer a further reduction of the lemming count.
Down, along, up... in that order (Havoc 8): Save requirement of 20/40, instead of 30/40. One easily loses lemmings in that level.
Oh, no! Squish! (Havoc 26): Again the question: Any solution that is not yet finished after 10 lemmings? If not, then a reduction to at most 20 lemmings should be made.
Save Me! (Havoc 29): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50. There are many ways to kill lemmings, if one isn't careful. So allowing the original kill quota seems preferable.
Regarding FANL2:
Basically I am very happy with Proxima's suggestion. But I still see two small problems:
1) There is a backroute, that uses only 2:14 (see attachment). I would suggest enlarging the one-way-wall on the right to reach deeper.
If one misses the builder trick at the end, and does not use the basher at the first builder, but to create a gap at the last bridge, the solution takes exactly 3:01.00. Some more tricks to shave off a few frames look feasable, but unfortunately fail due to single pixels or would only work with RR40 instead or RR50. So I would prefer if the intended solution took 3-4 seconds longer to make it clear that another trick is needed.
Is there a solution to 'Hello John' that would be possible without the time limit? I have two variations of what I think is the intended solution, depending on which hatch the athlete comes out of. Both of these finish within the 3:00 time limit.
I posted a screenshot of the final frame of such a solution (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2614.msg63620#msg63620) a few weeks ago. ... that the athlete makes 1,5 rounds through the level.
He said no floaters (not no climbers), and nothing about saving the extra lemmings, just about using them. On the unmodified version of the level, under NeoLemmix, this is not only possible, but fairly easy. Still could be considered talisman worthy, though.
Use two bombers to make the fall at the start survivable. Send a climber up, bomb. Build up to the top, as usual. Bash through the snowman. Use the last two bombers to get through the wall near the exit. You'll save exactly the requirement - I could even have believed this might have been an intended alternate solution, if it weren't for the fact that it's impossible under DOS Lemmings.
I'm sorry this has taken so long :'( I've had other (non-Lemmings) projects keeping me busy, and also it's been difficult to know how to proceed.
In chat just now, Nepster asked if this could be ready when the new-formats version is, so that it can be the default pack loaded. That would be great, so let's try to speed this along.
Deciding about the ordering is too big a task to do all at once, and we all have different ideas about ordering and we're not going to reach a consensus. So what I've decided to do is this: I've attached version 0.2.3, in which just the first rank is reordered according to my own preferences, also taking into account the original order and Nepster's suggestions. "The Crankshaft" moves down from rank 2 to rank 1, and "A Spot of Bother" moves up. Please have a look and tell me if this order is okay, and if so then I'll do the same for rank 2, and so on.
Full list of rank 1 levels, with original positions, Nepster's positions and namida's suggestions where different:
1 Just Dig
2 Only floaters can survive this
3 Tailor-made for blockers
4 Now use miners and climbers
5 You need bashers this time
6 A task for bombers
7 Builders will help you here
8 Snuggle up to a lemming (O: 9 N: 8)
9 Get a little extra help (O: 10 N: 11 namida: 9)
10 Downwardly mobile lemmings (O: 8 N: 9 namida: 10)
11 Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming (O: 12 N: 10 namida: 11)
12 A block from home (O: 11 N: 12 namida: 12)
13 Darkness of the royal family (O: 24 N: 22 namida: move earlier)
14 CindyLand
15 Lemming toast (O: 29 N: 18)
16 A beast of a level
17 Patience (N: 20)
18 You live and Lem (N: 21)
19 Let's be careful out there (N: 16)
20 Where do you see Lemmings? (O: 13 N: Rank 2 namida: move later)
21 Rainbow Island (N: 13)
22 The Crankshaft (O: Rank 2 N: 24)
23 Lemmings in the attic
24 Pillar talking (O: 25 N: Rank 2)
25 Careless clicking costs lives (O: 15 N: 25)
26 Catch more floaters (N: 30)
27 Quest for Kieran (N: Rank 2)
28 Turn around, young lemmings (N: 26)
29 Doomsday (O: 20 N: 29)
30 Going Their Separate Ways (N: 28)
Thanks. I appreciate the feedback, but I want to keep the skill training levels as they are. For new players, it's nice to isolate the skills so the player is not in a position of having to try out unfamiliar skills, and possibly get the lemmings killed by doing the wrong thing.
Anyway, Nepster approved my rank 1 list, and I've also played through it and feel it works well. So, I'm going to move on to rank 2, but feedback on rank 1 is still welcome.
This is a much harder rank to arrange, because once we get into the puzzle levels, our perceptions of difficulty are coloured by how much we, individually, struggled with each level, and that varies a lot. The best I can do here is make a first draft that feels more or less right, and come back to it later and see how much I want to tweak it :P
Also, I know we said the selection of levels was final, but looking again, "A Towering Problem" really doesn't look like a good choice. It's a bomber-timing level without timed bombers. I would like to replace this with "Have a nice day", a personal favourite level that I think may have missed out in the voting topics because it's not much harder than its repeat, which isn't a problem for Redux. Would anyone object to this?
Version 0.2.4, with my first-draft ordering for rank 2, is attached. Full list of levels:
1 Pop Yor Top
2 It's lemmingentry, Watson
3 Vacation in Gemland
4 Go for it!
5 The Stack
6 Just a Quicky
7 The run around
8 A Spot of Bother
9 With a little help from my Lem
10 Plethora of Presents
11 DON'T PANIC
12 Over the wall
13 A TOWERING PROBLEM / Have a nice day
14 Meeting Adjourned
15 The Needs of the Many
16 MENACING!
17 Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door
18 And now, the end is near
19 Tunnel vision
20 Perseverance
21 Down the tube
22 The Far Side
23 Emmings (No L)
24 Time waits for no lemming
25 No choice but to follow them
26 Take care, Sweetie
27 Five Alive
28 Speed Trap
29 Cascade
30 And then there were four
These levels included in rank 2 would be moved up: Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, Watch out there's traps about, Dolly Dimple, Postcard from Lemmingland, I have a cunning plan, The Long Way Around, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Tension Sheet Good Idea, Across the Gap, LEMTRIS, Mind the step, Compression Method 1, No justice for the hero.
These levels Nepster suggested for rank 2 would appear later: Izzie Wizze Lemmings Get Busy, The Long Way Around, Thebridge is breaking down, Last one out is a rotten egg, No world without you.
I also really like those achievement ideas. I didn't even know about this solution until about a year ago I think. It still amazes me.
You give one lemming a climber and he builds over the gap. Another climber climbs up that first step, digs a little bit, bashes, and the other lemmings walk pass him and up the stairs?
If so, then I didn't know about it until recently as well. Pretty cool solution.
You send one climber and he digs right before falling into the gap. He then builds so that he reaches the top of the gap, but turns around as well. He then uses the miner on the first step.
This wouldn't achieve the talisman, but it's pretty cool how this level is the Tricky version of The Great Lemming Caper: many solutions, none of them easy to spot at first, and when you get more experience with the game you find even more crazy solutions.
So, I've just had a play through the first three ranks in the latest version, and I'm pretty happy with the ordering -- of course I'll wait for others to give feedback before calling anything final 8-)
As I was playing, I was thinking about talismans, and I'd like to note down the ones I thought up so I don't forget them later :) Several of these are just old 100% challenges, but working out how to do them would still be interesting for new players -- and several of them are harder and more interesting in NL because it doesn't have the old glitches :)
After we've finished ordering the levels, I'll start a proper discussion of which talismans to include. For now, I'll just list everything I've thought of :)
:tal-bronze: Get a little extra help: 100% with only builders (this is more interesting if we revert to 10 builders)
:tal-bronze: Downwardly mobile lemmings: Solve with 1 skill
:tal-gold: Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% with no destructive skills
:tal-bronze: Lemming toast: Solve in 1 minute
:tal-bronze: Where do you see lemmings?: 100% with only builders
:tal-silver: Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
:tal-bronze: Let's be careful out there: Solve in 1 minute
:tal-bronze: The Crankshaft: 100% with no builders
:tal-silver: Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%
:tal-bronze: PoP YoR ToP: Save 100%
:tal-silver: DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Plethora of Presents: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Perseverance: Solve in 30 seconds
:tal-gold: Cascade: Save 100%
:tal-silver: LEMTRIS: Solve with no bashers
:tal-silver: Mutiny on the Bounty: Save 100%
:tal-silver: KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
:tal-gold: ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
:tal-gold: Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
:tal-gold: Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
:tal-silver: I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
:tal-gold: ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
:tal-silver: The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
:tal-silver: If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 6 builders
:tal-gold: The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
:tal-gold: It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Thanks for the vote of confidence :D
So, here's version 0.3.4, with a draft ordering for rank 4. "Across the Gap" moved down to rank 3, with "I have a cunning plan" moving up.
I thought of three more talismans, which would give us a nice round 30. Of course, talismans are far from final; I'll open a proper discussion on those once we're done with ordering.
:tal-silver: Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
:tal-gold: Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
:tal-gold: Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
As it's now been two weeks since the decision to have 160 levels, and no-one has suggested any other candidates for inclusion, I am now closing that discussion: we will stick with exactly the 160 levels currently in the pack.
I spent some time today going through 0.3.5 looking a individual levels. There are some I feel needed changes, so I made some and attached the results in the zip file.
Konnichiwa Lemming-san, Haunted Botanical Garden, and Temporary Peace converted to use the regular Dirt set instead of dirt_md
Boulder traps changed to beartrap kind in Haunted Botanical Garden to make them visible
I made a different way of making the traps visible in Worra load of old blocks. I think this looks nicer than Proxima's version.
A shortened version of Tension Sheet, should cut about a minute of mining/bashing time off the solution.
I really don't like the water where Proxima put them in If at first you dont succeed, so I made my version to block off the floor backroute.
A version of Lets Go Camping without the digger and some terrain changes to seal a backroute and make the trap on the right visible.
Also some talisman ideas of my own:
Perseverance: No Diggers
Come on over to my place: No Floaters
Great Lemming Caper: No Bashers
Flow Control: Save 10/21 lemmings
A Beast of a Level: either save 100% with 3 of everything or just complete the level with 2 of everything
Lets Be Careful Out There: save 27/30 with only 3 blockers and 3 builders
Spot of Bother: 100% without builders
Lemtris: 100% without builders
Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Assign skills to only one lemming
Menacing: Use no more than 7 builders
Time waits for no Lemming: save 28/30 without using floaters
Okay, the votes are almost a perfect even spread, so we'll try to be somewhat selective about the talismans we include, and we won't have multiple talismans per level; but we won't cut down to a small number either.
The next question to answer -- and I'll ask this informally rather than as a poll for now, although I'll put up a poll if necessary -- is should we aim to have roughly equal numbers of bronze, silver and gold talismans, or should we rate each one individually regardless of where that gets us?
I think the most interesting talismans are those that require a substantially different solution from the solutions one would be likely to come up with when solving a level normally, so I'll look through the lists of suggestions so far, note the ones that are most interesting and will certainly go in; then we can haggle about the rest :P (In some cases, I'll note that we should definitely have a talisman for a given level, but two or more have been suggested, so we'll have to pick one.)
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%
A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Either solve with no diggers, or solve in 30 seconds
Cascade: Save 100%
LEMTRIS: Either solve with no bashers, or save 100% with no builders. (Is 100% with no bashers possible?)
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Either save 100% with 1 basher, or save 100% with 6 builders
Upside-down World: Save 100%
It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
(Water processing plant: Save 100% -- not confirmed in NL yet)
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers
That's already 30, so I think we should be pretty selective about increasing the list beyond that. Are there any (either suggested so far, or new ones) that anyone feels particularly strongly should get onto the list?
Should have done this earlier. To help those who want to give feedback on the talismans, here's a list of those suggested so far that are not on my "definite" list, with a few comments:
Get a little extra help: 100% with only builders
Very similar to "Where do you see lemmings?" 100% only builders and "One way or another" only builders, so I'd include at most one of these. Also similar to the "Final impediment" talisman, which is on the definite list.
Downwardly mobile Lemmings: Solve with 1 skill
Very easy. I thought it might be nice to include this just to show off the fact that it can be done, but it's not really worth including.
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% with no destructive skills
An attempt at getting the challenge for the repeat level, "Tribute to M. C. Escher", to work on the earlier level. But if the condition is just "no destructive skills", it has several more solutions; if it's "builders and 1 floater only" then the condition is much more precise than any of our other talismans. Alternatively, we could have a much easier talisman for this level: 100% with no builders.
Lemming toast: Solve in 1 minute
Pretty easy. Not sure if it's worth including.
Where do you see lemmings?: 100% with only builders
See comments on "Get a little extra help".
Let's be careful out there: Solve in 1 minute
An easy challenge that amounts to "Take any variant of the shortcut instead of the long way round". Overlaps with the talisman for the repeat, "Come on over to my place", which requires a particular variant of the shortcut. Might still be worth including. bsmith's alternative talisman for this level, lose-3 with 3 builders and 3 blockers, enforces the long way round and also some rather fiddly timing.
PoP YoR ToP: Save 100%
Pretty easy, so not a definite talisman. But we're a little short on easy ones, so I may well include this.
Plethora of Presents: Save 100%
Same as above.
Mutiny on the Bounty: Save 100%
I'm disinclined to include this, as I realised it doesn't require much beyond a normal solution to the level.
Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Skills to only one lemming
This talisman type won't be supported in new-formats NeoLemmix. I've asked Nepster and namida about this, and it's unlikely to be re-added, at least in the immediate future.
MENACING !!: Solve with 7 builders
Normal solution, with a bit of efficiency and use of the existing terrain in getting up to the exit.
Time waits for no lemming: Lose 2 with no floaters
Normal solution with a bit of crowd-timing. Could add this for an extra easy talisman.
So, it looks like we're close to agreement on the selection of 32 talismans, which I'll repost here for the convenience of having them all in one post:
Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%
A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
Cascade: Save 100%
And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes
LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
Upside-down World: Save 100%
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Poles Apart: Save 100%
It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers
(By the way, Nepster mentioned in chat that he's too busy working on the new-formats version to give feedback on talismans.)
Looking through the list, I feel that there are a lot more medium (silver-worthy) than particularly easy or particularly hard talismans, so I don't think we'll go with either namida's 5:3:2 ratio or an even distribution. I'd rather like to have exactly 8, 16, 8 for the neat numbers, but I won't be too dogmatic about it.
Since we've started on selecting gold talismans, let's finish that off first. So far, between my list and Nessy's, we have seven:
Cascade: Save 100%
Flow Control: Save at least 14/21
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers
If we want to go up to eight, I think these are the strongest candidates for the last one:
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%. This would be my pick. It turns out that to save 100%, you have to optimise over the whole level, carefully selecting which skills to use in each part so as to have the skills you need left for other parts. It's a really hard and satisfying challenge. Nessy voted this bronze, but admitted in chat that he hadn't tried solving it himself, and underestimated the difficulty.
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% no builders. Nessy (above) voted this gold, although I don't agree as it feels much easier than the other gold candidates. It's true that KYHO is a very easy level just to solve, so the talisman is a huge step above a normal solution, but perhaps that shouldn't be taken too heavily into consideration for levels at either extreme of the pack.
(Alternatively, if we change our minds and use the "100% builders and 1 floater only" talisman, this is definitely gold-worthy.)
A Beast of a level: 100% 2 of each skill. Earlier in the thread, bsmith rated "any% 3 of each skill" as already silver-worthy, and "100% 2 of each skill" is an even harder version of this. Also, it's a lot harder than solving normally, given that it's a Fun level. Still, I'm not sure myself whether this is a gold-worthy challenge.
Any preferences between these three, or alternative proposals?
Akseli has also been trying out the talismans, and he sent me this list of how he would rate them:
I didn't solve yet DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Postcard from Lemmingland, The Lemming Funhouse and Come on over to my place, but I don't want to postpone you from seeing these other solutions already.
In my opinion from the easiest to the hardest (so not related to the difficulty of solving normally the level in case, but the absolute difficulty of these talisman solutions):
Bronze feeling ones:
Get a little extra help
The Crankshaft
And then there were four...
Turn around, young lemmings
Lemmings in the attic
A Spot of Bother
Maybe bronze, maybe silver:
Poles Apart
The Great Lemming Caper
If at first you don't succeed...
Upsidedown World
I have a cunning plan
The Steel Mines of Kessel
After this very similarly difficult bunch of solutions, so the "easiest" is not very far from "hardest" so you don't need to focus on the order too much:
Flow Control
It's hero time
Have a nice day
Which one are you trying to get?
Creature Discomforts
Perseverance
Scaling the Heights
Cascade
ROCKY ROAD
ONWARD AND UPWARD
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming (no builder)
A Beast of a level
Final impediment
LEMTRIS
Across the Gap
I hadn't gotten round to posting my own opinions on which ones should be bronze, but I agree with Akseli's six except maybe Lemmings in the attic -- the digger/basher staircase is much easier to pull off in NL, but may be tricky for new players to think of. Still, if we want to have eight bronze talismans then I think we should consider that one, The Lemming Funhouse, and I have a cunning plan; the others on Akseli's "maybe bronze" list feel too difficult to me (especially The Steel Mines of Kessel, which was the last talisman I solved in the pack).
As for golds, it looks like we're agreed, at least, on Cascade, ROCKY ROAD and Final impediment, but have a lot of disagreement on the others :P I'm busy this week, so I'll leave it until the weekend to make a decision and post a new version. But I do want to keep this moving, as Nepster has mentioned that new-formats NL is on the horizon and he'd like to have Redux ready to ship with it; and Flopsy is looking forward to LPing the project.
Sorry, I didn't manage to get the update done over the weekend after all. I'll try to get it done as soon as possible. To make this easier, I'm reposting the list of talismans, now with bronze, silver and gold indicated:
:tal-bronze: Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
:tal-silver: Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
:tal-silver: A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
:tal-bronze: Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
:tal-bronze: The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
:tal-bronze: Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%
:tal-bronze: A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
:tal-silver: DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
:tal-gold: Cascade: Save 100%
:tal-bronze: And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes
:tal-silver: LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
:tal-gold: Flow Control: Save 15/21 or more
:tal-silver: KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
:tal-silver: ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
:tal-bronze: I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
:tal-gold: Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
:tal-silver: Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
:tal-gold: ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
:tal-silver: The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
:tal-bronze: If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
:tal-silver: Upside-down World: Save 100%
:tal-gold: Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
:tal-silver: Poles Apart: Save 100%
:tal-silver: It's hero time: Solve with no climber
:tal-gold: Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
:tal-gold: Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
:tal-silver: Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
:tal-silver: The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
:tal-silver: The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
:tal-gold: Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers
In case anyone wants to give more feedback on talisman rankings, I'll add that the ones I'm least certain about are these:
If at first you don't succeed...: Currently ranked bronze, although Nessy considered it silver. I would consider ranking it up, but I don't think any of the currently silver ones deserves to be ranked down.
Which one are you trying to get?, Creature Discomforts: These are the two I'm least certain about ranking as gold. If we were to rank one or both down, the ones I'd most consider ranking up are DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Scaling the Heights, LEMTRIS and Across the Gap.
In regards to dirt_md:
I'd say the md tilesets should be all or none; either all of the Genesis levels should use the _md tilesets, or none of them should. Fire and Marble blend in somewhat without a side-by-side comparison, but the remaining sets have obvious differences: Here are some examples using screenshots from the Genesis tilesets thread. (The levels are similar but non-identical, with the Genesis levels being modifications to the original levels made to show off the recolors I made).
In order from what I feel to be the most different to least different:
(https://i.imgur.com/A1jMUau.png)(https://i.imgur.com/bNuwiPF.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2zNgvhE.png)(https://i.imgur.com/PywBKdb.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/FS6PXzz.png)(https://i.imgur.com/TEgpx3W.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/EasvZMU.png)(https://i.imgur.com/jUBXYry.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/hp0DjzV.png)(https://i.imgur.com/mRzrU3H.png)
It probably makes the most sense to change them to the normal sets. I like how some of the _md sets look (especially crystal - those are such nice shades of blue IMO) but I don't think it makes much sense to use two versions of the same tileset in one levelpack.