For you, maybe. For me, having an updraft would be the edge case, while "no updraft" would be the expected normal state of things.
That is not the point - the point is that we already have skills and or objects that allow an emulation of the skill whenever it is required.
Part of IchoTolot's criticism of the Slider is that some of its behaviour can be emulated, as I have demonstrated myself, using one-way fields (specifically by having Floaters fall through one-way fields). One-way fields being present in a level would also not be the standard case - yet, in principle they still allow to emulate this part of the Slider's behaviour.
The important difference is that this turning behaviour is not permanently attached to the lemming - because
that's what makes Slider puzzles interesting, having it as a permanent skill. The Jetboarder, in contrast, is not a permanent skill. So it can be emulated by an object more easily in whatever specific place of a level it would become relevant.
Of course it can, but if you have a splat hatch and a stoner, that's not a puzzle, it's just a pointless extra move before beginning the real puzzle. (In other words, your main complaint about splat hatches but in miniature.) With a jetboarder instead, you can get one lemming to safety, and now it's still a puzzle to make the fall safe for the others.
This is true, but it is also another classic example where the Glider comes into place (in this case without a Stoner). Like the Jetboarder, the Glider needs to find a wall where he can land, so that he can start building a splatform from there.
The Jetboarder would still have to build; in order for a single Jetboarder to break a fall specifically from a splat hatch by himself, that hatch would have to be placed half inside the wall, which is really not aesthetically pleasing and also mechanically confusing, since the player can't tell whether the lemmings will fall or spawn inside the terrain of the wall.
For a Jetboarder to break a fall from a splat hatch, you'd have to chain several Jetboards into each other to create an even platform, connecting the closest wall to the point where the lemmings drop. In other words, you'd have to build a slightly more efficient Stoner staircase whenever you'd want to break a fall - which is tedious to assign.
At the same time, the Jetboarder would still possess the inherent power of the Stoner of being assignable mid-air. Thus, you wouldn't even have to allow a single lemming to hit the ground (as a Floater or a Glider landing somewhere else). You could still solve the entire splat-height-hatch issue from mid-air, it would just take more assignments of the same skill (i.e. skill spamming), compared to the Stoner where a single instance is enough.
And in turn, a scenario where you only have one Jetboarder who needs to build the splatform from the wall he hits is like a Glider landing in a Bomber niche inside the same wall, and then he starts building from there (Stoners wouldn't work in this case because you'd simply assign them straight to one of the Fallers coming out of the hatch, of course).
Now to IchoTolot's new posts:
I am just now seing the pictures in Strato's post and you have some wrong thoughts again as it seems:
If the board comes from the left it's 1 pixel too far up in the air.
I've never envisioned the shimmier to be able to do this. I have envisiond shimmiers much further away and the spear being at the lowest point of a wall it ends in, so it extends the ceiling below.
I think it just wasn't quite clear what you meant by the board being "right
above the ground" - "with a 1-pixel gap between terrain and board" (i.e. floating on air, like a Back-to-the-Future hover board), or "sliding directly
on top of the terrain", more like a snow board.
It seems like you meant the latter.
Sure, in this case the pieces of terrain will connect, and the Shimmier can continue (see the updated screenshot attachment).At the same time, the board sliding right on top of terrain will also mean it will be stopped by a single pixel of terrain higher than that. It won't be able to go up slopes, and it won't be very useful in general in tilesets with a lot of rough pieces (Dirt, Bubble, Rock, Cavelem, Polar, Beach, Outdoor, just to name a few of the classic ones).
- A glider needs to start gliding first and you cannot do this on flat ground right out of the bat. So you need extra setup there.
With Jumpers transitioning to Gliders at the top of the curve, it's easier than ever to start gliding from flat ground.
- The speed of the glider in an updraft is not very fast, the jet boarder is waaaay faster.
This difference only matters when the skill offers other distinct qualities; otherwise, it's the Runner / Superlemming argument (or also the argument against the Glue Pourer): Faster performance of an identical behaviour isn't enough.
- All other gliders will most likely come with the lemming.
This is an empty truism since it applies to any situation where several lemmings share the same skill (all Climbers follow the first Climber, all Shimmiers follow the first Shimmier etc.). Simultaneously, there are always ways to isolate the pioneer from the rest of the crowd by blocking of the path: If only one Glider jumps, only he can start sailing on a ground-level updraft while every other Glider remains on their feet. If you place a Stacker / Blocker or use any of the other multitude of crowd containment options, of course no other Glider will follow.
If, in contrast, you think of a flow-control scenario without any crowd containment, again, this is the "one lemming is just faster and ahead of the crowd" argument that already didn't work for the Runner, because the Jumper can accomplish that on its own.
- A ton of updrafts is visually very messy in my opinion, especially if you need to cover the whole 64 pixel way.
To my knowledge, you've stated before that mechanical fairness comes before visually pleasing aspects for you.
Updrafts are clearly visible for the player from the getgo.
Stoners are not as width as the board for once + require a sacrifice + are not shimmier friendly.
All of these are minor differences:
- "this skill is a non-lethal version / doesn't require a sacrifice" is irrelevant as it is not enough of a difference, see the arguments against WillLem's non-lethal Stoner and non-lethal Bomber (Lightsaberer)
- width of the terrain created is also just a minor detail. The L2 Scooper also creates a slightly different shaft than the Miner, but that doesn't justify it's inclusion. We could have a bunch of different terrain lengths created by various constructive skills, and they'd still overlap too much.
- as I stated before, I think you overestimate the Shimmier-friendliness of the board the skill leaves behind. So while yes, Stoners are not Shimmier-friendly (unless they close gaps in otherwise even ceilings), I don't think the board would be more Shimmier-friendly enough to use this as an argument over the Stoner.
You can still achieve the same puzzle effect by having a thin gap between wall and ceiling closed a Stoner (which will then indeed create a Shimmier friendly ceiling because the rest of the ceiling is even)
vs. having a slightly wider gap between wall and ceiling closed by a Jetboard- The shimmier is even slower than the glider and a snail compared to the jet boarder. It is even slower than a walker!
- The whole ceiling needs to be shimmier friendly.
Again, I think speed shouldn't matter too much, since whenever it becomes relevant, that adds elements of execution difficulty (be it time limits or very precise flow control where every frame counts).
While the Jetboarder doesn't require friendly, flat ceilings, as I said above, if it slides right on top of the terrain, it will require Jetboard-friendly grounds. Just like every rough edge in a ceiling will stop the Shimmier, every rough edge in the ground will stop the Jetboarder.
At this point, its applicability as a speed-increasing skill (like the Runner) becomes drastically limited. You will really have to wait with the assignment until right before the gap the Jetboard is supposed to cover - or just use one of the very block-ish L2 tilesets (but remember not to use any upward slopes!).
The Platformer is limited by the fact that it can't be assigned on flat terrain. To my understanding, when the lemming is not currently at or in a gap, the Jetboard can
only be assigned on perfectly flat terrain, and more than that, even needs a combination of flat terrain at its exact height and/or empty gaps, all the way between its starting point and destination.
I've already addressed this. Jumpers gain way more height and are not even close to reaching as far as the jet boarder (~ 64 pixels)
Once more, we're arguing about mere number differences. The Jumper goes a little higher, but shorter; the Shimmier requires a ceiling, but can go even wider; the Glider requires an updraft and can go higher and wider. This is missing the forest for the trees:
What puzzle situation is so specific that a gap needs to be too wide for a Jumper to cross, and must not have a ceiling above it, and must not have an updraft to allow a Glider to get across instead?
What puzzle specifically requires all three of these conditions to be unfulfilled at the same time, so that only a Jetboarder could solve this situation? - Updrafts in levels are far from common over all they are even quite rare.
- Gaps without ceilings are quite common.
- There are also a lot of wider gaps, but this would be the most common out of the three.
You've listed mostly edge cases here.
It doesn't matter how often other people use updrafts; if you need them for your puzzles, they're always available to you! Adapt the terrain and objects to your needs. You are the level designer, you can easily modify these to fit your puzzle. Isn't that what you've always been telling me?
Just like I can always use one-way fields to turn Floaters around and imitate Sliders, you can always use updrafts to get Gliders across wider gaps without ceilings.
The difference is that the Slider can do 2-3 important other things (permanent turning behaviour attached to a lemming, Shimmier transitions, falling on platforms with alligned edges) that can't be emulated by one-way fields. Otherwise I'd be perfectly fine with just making more use of one-way fields from now on, especially since you can easily resize them in New Formats to not be larger than absolutely needed. Then I'd be happy having e.g. a diagonal Laser Blaster as the 20th skill instead and continue to simulate my Sliders with one-way fields.
You can easily do the same with updrafts.
The jet boarder is not a double jump in comparison and that's the point! The lemming gets on a board and starts dashing. A jumping shimmier should not jump again, but getting on his board does not require another jump.
I'm not talking about double jumps; those refer to Reachers. I'm talking about Shimmiers, i.e. lemmings already attached to a ceiling. They can't jump off the ceiling (for example once they reach the end of a ceiling) to get across a gap that follows this ceiling. The Jetboarder would allow them to do this, because they transition back to a Faller once they reach the end of the ceiling.
Then be a good level designer and just don't over do it! On top of that they are wider than a stoner and perfectly fit into each other + you don't have to assign them precisely.
Aren't they only one pixel in width? If you need several Jetboards stuck into each other, you actually do need to assign them perfectly at exactly the same height. Otherwise one will go beneath the next one, because there's nothing to get stuck in. This way, unless assigned at the exact same pixel of height, they will create a stack of Jetboards stuck far away in the wall, rather than forming a continuous longer platform. Or some platforms will be at the same height and slightly longer, others lower and stuck in the wall, but none long enough to form a continuous platform from the wall up to the place where the Fallers drop.
Stoner staircases may be shorter, but they don't require such precision with regards to vertical assignment.
The slider is ONLY applicable at a wall and therefore very restricted. Your comparison does not hold up.
For the Jetboarder's purposes as a constructive skill, it does. Or what will happen once a lemming reaches the maximum length of 64 pixels without having hit terrain?
You said the lemming falls down - does that mean the board remains floating in the air?
Does he transition back into a Walker on top of his board and walk off, or does the entire thing fall down (I assume the latter)? Because in that case, you'd actually need a wall to be able to construct anything.If the board remains in the air, this would mean it's already terrain while it's moving, and the lemming has to stand still on top of it. This would essentially reintroduce the problem with lifts (moving pieces of terrain).
namida has stated in the past that he would have loved those, but that they are a nightmare to code.Abuse the max range of the skill and letting lemmings end in different positions.
Ah, okay, I needed to combine that with the sentence from the earlier post to imagine what you mean.
Yes, this would be an interesting new application, since none of our current skills have maximum ranges in general.
If I really wanted this on a puzzle right now, though, I'd probably do it with a Jumper. For example, make a holding pit so that a Jumper assigned at the edge of one of its walls can barely make it across. Then assign other Jumpers earlier so that they jump into the pit instead of over it.
Sure, the gaps those Jumpers could cover would be much smaller. But the question is again, how many puzzles specifically
need the gaps to be much wider if they want to resort to this specific method of crowd separation?
In breaking a single fall, yes. But for the entire hatch you will have to get more creative.
As said before, to me there are two scenarios when it comes to assigning skills to Fallers in order to break the fall of the entire group:1) A skill assigned in mid-air is enough to break the fall by itself - 1 Stoner, or 2-3 Jetboarders, lined up perfectly at the exact same pixel of height to form a continuous platform between wall and hatch
2) A single lemming goes off to the side and starts creating a splatform from there (which is what I think you refer to with this quote). This is a classical Glider application.
And the only out there! The stone also comes with a sacrifice and a piece of terrain to abuse diirectly at the fall site. This does not hold up really.
That can't be the case, since we already had two Stoner applications in this same post:
1) Breaking falls
2) Starting to build or perform other skills from lower levels (even if the Stoner isn't required to break a fall in that case, it just gives you access, a starting point for any skill that requires ground under the lemming's feet)
But Stoners have many further uses: They can serve as Blockers, they hold back Climbers (in contrast to Stackers), but they can easily be disabled again by closing the gap at their feet, so that lemmings can ascend over them again (6-pixel-jumps). They can also be removed with destructive skills once the crowd needs to be released. And they can make Swimmers dive (which is the most niche application). They can prevent Climbers from continuing to climb, they can cause Shimmiers to drop from a ceiling.
The Stoner was indeed my classic example of how a single skill can fulfil multiple purposes, so that you can make an entire level with many different tasks, yet still only involving that single skill. There aren't many skills for which we can say this - the Builder of course is one, the Miner probably too, and I also managed to create an advanced Digger-only level, but that involved a lot of steel to make it work.
This versatility of course is what makes the Stoner so powerful - and also frequently broken. But for all its problems, the Stoner is here to stay, and with it being a constructive skill, it does have a lot of overlap with any other constructive skill that creates comparatively small pieces of terrain (like Throwers, and the Stacker, of course). And also the Jetboarder.
While the Jetboarder might share the weakness of needing a wall to break a fall with the Slider - and as I said, if I argued for the Slider not to be emulated with Stoners, that same defense from me is available to the Jetboarder, at least in principle
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I think the actual danger for broken-ness lies in the mid-air assignment. This is something that's obviously not possible with the Slider, but both the Jetboarder and the Stoner share it.
This allows a Jetboarder to fly off in whatever situation he drops into a hazard zone. This is something only the Glider can do so far, but at least the Glider is limited by updrafts, and by the fact that it does still have to come down without them.
The Jetboarder is only limited in its height remaining constant, and by its maximum length. But as you said, 64 pixels covers quite a large gap. So unless he's flying over a particularly wide ocean (at this point I would no longer call it a water pit), he's very certain to land outside the danger zone. Even if the place where he arrives features splat height, unless you only have 1 Jetboarder available on a particular level, you can just have him drop a couple of pixels and assign another Jetboarder - if need be 1 pixel above the ground, so that it still acts as if the lemming had landed safely as soon as he dashes into the slightest increase in terrain altitude.
The rest of your arguments all rely on the glider comparison which is just not suitable. Especially with the updraft usage you proposed.
You mean not as suitable as comparisons between Floaters and Sliders, when the Slider is actually a downward Climber?
Updrafts can fulfil a lot of purposes we may not think of, just because people might not use them frequently. For example, they were also our New-Formats surrogate for anti-splat pads while they were removed, since 90% of the time, the two are identical. namida brought anti-splat pads back because they had been used on previous puzzles, so there was more harm than gain in keeping them out of New Formats. But essentially, they were brought back for the edge cases of having to build into anti-splat pads first - specifically in such cases where lemmings need to fall through the area of the anti-splat pad first and this fall has to be splat height (because an updraft would reset that where an anti-splat pad without terrain in it would not).
So yes, in this case, we got something back that we really only need for edge cases - and I'm happy about it for the few levels I created where this actually makes a difference. But we wouldn't have
needed anti-splat pads back for a majority of level ideas to work, because they could simply have resorted to updrafts. And when it comes to something likely as permanent as the introduction of a new skill, there should be an actual need that this skill fulfils.
There will always be some levels where these edge cases apply, and it's of course always possible to come up with an example level. The relevant question though is the frequency with which such levels actually come up.
Feel free to showcase some example level ideas that could use the Jetboarder! Then we can try and see for ourselves whether the level can be modified easily enough to still be solvable with either Jumpers / Gliders / Shimmiers / Stoners etc., or whether any such modification would result in either a drastic modification of the solution, or create a bunch of backroutes.