Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete?
If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall?
If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier?
Anyone know where to get these?
In NL, none of the others exist, and we have to get by with just one size of jumper, so it makes sense for it to be a bit more powerful.
Poor WillLem... looks like you'll have to do the "which classic levels can be beaten with the new skills?" challenge all over again once the Jumper rolls around... :P
I have some questions about proposed skill interactions:
Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.
If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.
If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.
Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.
If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.
If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.
I would support the 36 pixel wigth and 16 pixel high trajectory.
I would make sure the jumping on a quite common 16 pixel high block case is not very precise though ---> maybe 18 pixel high ???
In L2, such ceilings are no problem for the diagonally-jumping Shimmiers, so having Jumpers for this type of situation, which is way more common than you might think (i.e. anything but an edge case ;) ), would certainly be helpful.
I have some questions about proposed skill interactions:
Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.
If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.
If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.
Jumper->Walker: this could maybe be used to shorten a jump. Let's say, for example, the Jumper has 3 'stages' - ascension, top of the arc where they're airborne, and then descension. Each phase would form part of a parabolic arc. Applying the walker skill could make the animation transition straight to the descension stage from wherever the Jumper is. If the Jumper has already started to descend, the Jump would essentially become a double-jump because the descension stage would be activated again.
Better still, the Walker could be used to make the Lemming do some sort of acrobatic twist in midair which extends the jump range. There are all sorts of possibilities here. As others have said though, the Jumper simply falling immediately from wherever it is in the jump stage is something I'm definitely not in favour of; is makes very little sense even in videogame logic.
Swimmer->Jumper: again, I'm thinking that the Jumper skill in water could make the Lemming perform a twist in the water which would turn them around, or maybe accelerate them forward. It could have some function, I guess is what I'm saying. Jumping out of the water seems a bit silly unless they suddenly get a Dolphin suit.
To respond to Strato, this is not inconsistent because there is currently no other skill that jumps. Sure, we can look at the behaviour of a lemming walking off an edge to make comparisons -- such as my point above that a mid-air jumper should explode instantly -- but there are going to be differences as well as similarities. Jumping is jumping; falling is falling.
And only Fallers can get out their Glider/Floater parachutes.
How does this work in L2? The L2 equivalent of the Glider would be the Hang Glider, in my book. I guess it is possible to assign a Hang Glider to a Jumper in mid-air?
Jumper -> Bomber/Stoner: Definitely instant. At the moment, bombers are instant if they are in mid-air (fallers, floaters/gliders, shimmiers), so there is a straightforward consistency argument for making jumpers bomb instantly.
Swimmer -> Jumper: Forbid assignment. Jumping out of the water is unrealistic, but making the skill do something completely different, as WillLem suggested, would be a weird edge case where a skill has two unrelated effects in different circumstances. These are hard for new players to discover and internalise, and should be avoided where possible. [EDIT: Namida posted with basically the same response while I was typing this.]
Jumper -> Walker: Forbid assignment.
Jumper -> Glider: Start gliding from the top of the jump. The only reason a glider normally has to go through the falling animation before starting to glide is that it takes time to pull the glider out; the start of a jump would also give the lemming time to do this. This would make the jumper/glider combination more powerful, and there is a lot of potential in making the combination of two skills able to access places neither skill can alone. (This is not like the above two cases -- in this case each skill is doing what it normally does, we are just considering how they combine.)
Jumper -> Glider This one will remain open. I'm not completely convinced either way yet. I may need to implement and try out both options re: when the jumper starts gliding.
Jumper -> Hitting wall There are some good points for that the lemming should turn around and fall. But I'm not 100% convinced.
Climber -> Jumper (Wall-jumping) I'm leaning towards allowing this, but again, not completely convinced.
I was thinking about this earlier... if the glider has already been assigned before the jump, then it makes sense for the jumper to start transitioning to a glider at the top of the jump arc, as the lem would be ready to become a glider. If the glider is assigned during a jump, then normal fall-then-glide physics ought to apply.
I was thinking about this earlier... if the glider has already been assigned before the jump, then it makes sense for the jumper to start transitioning to a glider at the top of the jump arc, as the lem would be ready to become a glider. If the glider is assigned during a jump, then normal fall-then-glide physics ought to apply.
On the "jumper hits wall" scenario - I do get the feeling many people are only considering the case in the left in the attached pic. However, the case on the right is likely where the difference could lead to some interesting situations - so don't forget to consider that too.
Therefore, the second scenario does indeed produce more differences. However, whether one is more preferable than the other depends entirely on the layout of the rest of the level; they do not carry any particular advantages either way in and of themselves.
The first scenario, however, produces a difference which does carry a specific advantage: i.e. the opportunity to further interact with the wall.
For the climber -> jumper case, after seing it in action I tend a bit more to the allow side now. The parkour options are quite large, even though the combination can be very overpowered. So I slightly tend towards yes there now.
Shimmiers also do not turn mid-air when shimming against a wall.
It make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.
Or, maybe they bounce off the wall: but they still wouldn't necessarily be facing the opposite direction...
This raises another interesting question, though:
What happens when you assign a Walker to a Jumper?
Does he stop jumping and fall straight down again?
Does he turn around in the middle of the jump, like a Cloner, just without the original continuing to move in the former direction?
To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!
To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!
In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?
QuoteIt make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.
That would effectively introduce yet another L2 skill, the Slider. By itself, this would run counter to my expectations, though, because no other lemming falling 1 pixel next to a wall slides down on it; he just becomes a regular Faller.
To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!
In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?
Thanks, Proxima :D ! No better way of pointing out the flaws in that logic! :thumbsup:
I know that's what can happen with the catapults in Lemmings 3D: There's one level (I think "Shadow Maze"?) where the catapult actually hurls the lemmings against a block, causing them to splat - and to prevent that, you have to bomb that piece of terrain away.
No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.
QuoteNo other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.
Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).
Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. :thumbsup: Which, as it currently stands, is also in line with what the majority seems to favour...
Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).
Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. :thumbsup:
My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix. Lemmings bouncing off a wall doesn't really sit right with me, whereas I completely accept it for lix -- but that's a different game.
After hitting a wall mid flight it just makes sense that he simply falls after the crash.
The glider is not a very good comparison in my opinion as he slowly glides into a wall instead of violently crashing into it.
^ I'm open to this if people are generally in favor of it, but I suspect this won't be the case.
My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix.
It doesn't make any intuitive sense to me to get a transition into slider as a result of the jumper hitting the wall. It kind of begs the question of why wouldn't a normal falling walking lemming that was falling off the same wall starting from the top (and therefore already facing the same direction, ie. away from the wall) also be able to slide.
If the jumper doesn't turn around at the wall it collides into, I can somewhat more come to terms with it doing a slide down the wall. But with the turn around, doing a slider just seems very weird to me.
I understand it would still need to transition to Faller state after the initial jump arc, but perhaps the trajectory could continue...?
I assume by wall-jumping, you mean the Climber's ability to jump off a wall, not to hold on to it after jumping? ;) EDIT: Yes, you do, clarified by the poll! :D
And it would also be easy to restrict these wider jumps in a level to places where the creator has placed updrafts, i.e. the lemming wouldn't start making wider jumps in general, like he would do when becoming a Runner.
Regarding the Glider-Jumper video, I'm impressed how you managed to include both types of behaviour in the same level! :thumbsup: I guess you did this via a keyboard shortcut? ;) Like "regular click = Jumper A, STRG + click = Jumper B"?
Can we do a poll for double-jumps as well? i.e. If a Jumper is assigned to a Jumper mid-jump, it restarts the arc from lem's current position, allowing them to gain extra height and distance.
I think a double jump would not make much sense as an extra jump in mid air is quite unrealistic for a normal lemming. You can't really jump with no ground under your feet
I think specifically in regards to it "making sense", it's acceptable because double-jumping is a very common video game ability.
With the Jumper, these are the possibilities that make it a powerful skill:
Transition to/from Climber skill - this has been accepted
Sliding upon interaction with walls - this has been overruled in favour of the lemming turning around and falling
Jump boosted by updrafts - still up for vote
Double-jump possible - seems unpopular from current comments
To only have one out of four possible power-related applications accepted would be a bit of a shame, and would make the skill underpowered, IMHO.
Two out of five: jumper -> climber and climber -> jumper were both accepted.
(I would also count the jumper turning round when hitting a blocker's field -- we just didn't vote on this because it was never in doubt.)
Adding the ability to jump in mid-air would give it too wide a reach in my opinion -- it would be very difficult for the designer to anticipate everything the player can do with a jumper, and it would be very susceptible to enabling backroutes.
EDIT: Unless it's decided that assigning a Jumper cancels other skills, in which case it's also useful as a skill-canceller.
Either way, I still think that having no way to extend the Jumper's reach leaves it somewhat under-powered
To my way of thinking, it's more a case of: "take your pick which" rather than "no, let's not have either." That just seems unnecessarily restrictive
The vanilla Jumper, by itself, can cancel another skill; get one lemming over a gap without using up a builder; get one lemming past a trap; get one lemming over a blocker/stacker (excellent for when your worker lemming needs to die or block and you need a second worker); get a lemming to a higher elevation; get a lemming to a lower elevation without floaters/gliders given a favourable terrain setup; get a lemming partway up a wall or close to a ceiling to bomb/stone there or collect a pickup skill. To all that, we've already agreed to add transitioning to a climber, allowing the climber to wall-jump, and gliding from the peak of the jump.
...
If you can look at all that and still think the Jumper needs more bells and whistles in order to pull its weight, then I guess we're not talking the same language any more.
An updraft in this specific position would thus still allow the Jumper to cover the same width as before (no longitudinal extension of the leap), but the point at which he lands on the other side could be slightly (=4 pixels) higher if he jumps through an updraft, compared to a regular jump, where, if the full length of the jump is required to cover the distance, he would have to land at the same height as he started (if the wall were any higher, he'd instead bump against it and fall down).
Ascender - Jumper and Ascender never directly transition to each other.
Hoister - A jumper hitting a wall very slightly further than the distance he can just step on to it, will become a Hoister. Jumper cannot be assigned to a Hoister (maybe it should be possible, as a "last-second wall jump"?).
I just don't remember any particular other skill that you can assign to a Hoister?
Thanks for the overview! ;) In other words: You can't assign a Shimmier to a Hoister.
Based on that, would it be reasonable for the player to assume that they can assign a Jumper to a Hoister?
Counter-point: You can assign a Jumper, but not a Shimmier, to a climber.
However, a Hoister can also come from a non-climber now. I'd rather not make this dependent on "is the lemming a Climber or not"?
Of course you can assign a Shimmier to a Climber (that was kind of the point of this most important interaction)! :P Just not while he is hoisting...
Regarding Hoister-to-Jumper transitions: If those are possible, I can already see WillLem create a pixel-precise level with a trap right at the top of a Climber's path, and a platform behind the Climber that you have to jump to, but the platform is placed at such a height that you can only reach it from the top of the wall (=where the trap is). :evil: In that case, you couldn't assign the Jumper while the lemming is still climbing (because he'd jump too low and miss the platform behind him), but you couldn't wait until he had finished climbing either, because then he'd go into the trap.
Let's be careful about specifically accusing other users like that, especially when those users have shown that they're learning what is or isn't considered fair in a level and making efforts to improve
I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be an accusation - just something that would fit the level design philosophy he actively stated he enjoys personally, and thus, this would be completely fine in my book ;) . I am aware he's actively trying to create levels that go along with the majority opinion in the NeoLemmix community.
My offer stands, Strato - if you fancy getting on Lemmicks 2 with me, let's do it!
Haha, to be fair I do like a bit of pixel-precision, but not to the extent of making something that's impossible. Besides - if an impossible element is included in a level, it renders it unsolvable. I'm definitely not into making unsolvable levels, just want to clear that up right now!
I'm reposting here a query I had in the Slider topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4713.msg80554#msg80554), since this is important to decide regardless of whether or not we get the Slider:
Should a Shimmier reaching the end of a ceiling have a one-frame window before they fall, in which they can jump?
5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads? :evil:
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?
Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes. ;)
I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...
Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).
I'd like to keep consistency and base it on state. In other words, one of these two approaches:
a) If a Jumper lands on a splatpad, he splats.
One could say "You can't have the upsides of being a Faller (=Glider transition possible) without having the downsides... ;) ".
But then, some people might expect that fall height would be calculated from the top of a Jumper's arc as well, rather than from the point where he actually transitions back into a Faller...
Splat pads do currently hinge specifically on the "faller" state
I'd say jumpers share some similarities to fallers, so it makes sense for them to splat when they land on a splat pad.
It would be easy enough to only affect them on the downwards part of the jump.
I'm still not sure I understand. Even if Jumpers only splat on their downwards arc, why should the Splat Pad affect a non-faller-state Jumper, but not a non-faller-state Walker?
i.e. If a regular Walker "drops" onto a Splat Pad without entering the faller state, this (to my mind) is very similar to a Jumper jumping into the Splat Pad's trigger area without entering the faller state.
To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0), how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?
I'd say I'm generally still in favour of some sort of post-Jumper diagonal fall state which continues its trajectory, and it might be worth a quick discussion about this to see what others think.
I'd say I'm generally still in favour of some sort of post-Jumper diagonal fall state which continues its trajectory, and it might be worth a quick discussion about this to see what others think.
To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0), how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?
An idea that occured to me this morning: the jumper skill could make use of the now redundant "boing" exit sound! 8-)
All sounds in NL are user-customisable... some users have chosen to keep that as the exit sound.
To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0), how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?
This was mentioned on discord a while back, but I checked on the newest experimental and it's still true: if a builder is assigned jumper, he will jump during some frames, but during others he will hit his own brick, so the the skill effectively becomes a walker.
I would expect the builder always to jump, even if some special-casing is needed to achieve this.
Somewhat related: On bumpy terrain, a jumper will immediately stop if assigned before a rise of 2 pixels. I can see why this happens, but it feels a bit fiddly, and I wonder if maybe the solution is to relax terrain checks at the start of the jumper's arc -- this might deal with the builder issue as well.