Lemmings Challenges

[Shvegait]

May I recall you that I found a solution mentioned above that cuts down lots of lost lemmings on "No problemming" ?

I don't know if that (maybe little lame) trick counts but it's a nice excuse to make the ONML losses more comparable to the original lemming's losses

I don't think it counts, because while the PERCENTAGE of lemmings saved is higher, the NUMBER of lemmings saved is much lower. Lemmings who don't come out of the trapdoors shouldn't count as saved.

[ccexplore]

Actually, it's the other way around.  Because the unsavable trapdoor is where the first lemming comes out, you can never get over 50% even with the nuke glitch.

Now, it's true that in a way you lose fewer lemmings, in the sense that fewer lemmings died.  On the other hand, if we count instead by the number of lemmings we saved, since most lemmings never even come out with the nuke glitch, they don't really count as having been saved either.

So I'm not sure what to make of your trick on Crazy 11.  I guess we've been reporting total number of lemmings lost so Leviathan do have a point.

Of course, it's a bit of a moot point until I managed to lower another score on ONML in the future.   Maybe I'll report future progress in a format like 85 (46), where the number in parenthesis are the numbers lost when taking into account Crazy 11 (note that I don't know yet if you can really lost just the first lemming on Crazy 11, the 46 is just for explanation purposes).

[Shvegait]

Oops. I guess I meant the same percentage, not a higher one. I still think it shouldn't count, though, since you're actually saving fewer lemmings (1/2 instead of 40/80.. and the level calls for 80).

[Proxima]

I say it doesn't count; regardless of the percentage, you can get 80 lemmings on the level and you saved one. Which versions of the game allow the trick, anyway? Have you tried testing?

[ccexplore]

I did remember testing the nuke trick on the Amiga on Lemmings (ie. not ONML) and it doesn't work.  I haven't really tested other versions but I have a good feeling that, like the direct-drop trick, the nuke trick only works in certain versions, possibly just the PC.

Still, the scores already assume the PC version.  The Amiga version for example, as far as I can tell, you cannot adjust the RR while the game is paused, so I think some challenge solutions wouldn't work on the Amiga version due to that limitation.

Whether you want to count or discount the lemmings that didn't die because they didn't come out is up to you.  I already noted a long time ago, before the discussion of the nuke trick came into being,  that the total number for ONML are bloated by the lemmings you couldn't save in Crazy 11, whereas there is no equivalent level in Lemmings (you can equivalently state that ONML doesn't have a level like Lemming's Tricky 25 or whatever Cascade is).

It's actually interesting to look at the numbers again.  People used to say how you lose a lot more lemmings in ONML then in Lemmings.  But if you discount the 40 from Crazy 11 as an anomaly, you now see that you lost I think 64 per the 120 Lemmings level, and 45 per the 80 ONML levels (80 since, to quote Ahribar, "Tame hardly counts").  As you can see the ratios are now actually fairly similar (though I guess numerically ONML is still slightly higher).

[ccexplore]

Now a record for the fewer-builders challenges:

Taxing 21:  100% without builders

Obviously it uses a few glitches.

The solution has a few places where precision is necessary in order for certain moves to be effective and/or non-fatal.  If you're finding yourself unsure why a move is only sometimes effective or sometimes non-fatal, or if you know why but just not how to do it right, e-mail or PM for tips (yes, the tips are guaranteed to work, unlike Wicked 12).  Like Wicked 12, I want some proof first that you know what you're doing first (but I guess I don't need a screenshot).

[ccexplore]

Taxing 21: &#A0;100% without builders

Obviously it uses a few glitches.

btw, none of the glitches used are new.  I have already used them in other levels.

[ccexplore]

Ah, useful glitch. &#A0;I can do Mayhem 12 now with 6 builders.

Actually, now down to just 5 builders on Mayhem 12.  This should be the absolute minimum, barring some new unknown glitch.

This is slightly less straightforward then you might expect, especially towards the end.  What you think could work is hampered by the fact (well, I don't know for sure, but it looks like it) that the exit's trigger area is only 4 pixels wide, so you need to find a way to turn a lemming around without using builders.

======================

As a balance to all these talks of glitches which I don't reveal in many of my recent solutions, I will now present another useful fact, something that I'm actually finding myself do more and more with the recent challenges.

In CustLemm/Lemmings/ONML, the basher moves forward exactly 5 pixels for every bash stroke.

So for example:

Code: [Select]

O....X....W
If the Lemming is standing at the position marked "o" when you assigned him the basher, one stroke later he will end up at "x", and then at "w" after the second stroke.  Each character above represents one pixel.

Certainly not earth-shattering, but I certainly have found myself doing a lot of sketchings lately based on this.  It's a good way to find out where your basher will end up, or a good way to figure out where exactly you should start bashing in order to end up at a certain place you want.

Now, the basher does move continously.  It does not skip the intervening pixels.  However, the nice thing about it is, the basher is stationary while it is removing terrain, which takes several frames to complete.  It's clear how when you look at the animation, there's a phase where the basher is standing still doing the stroke, and then followed by the phase where he moves forward in preparation for the next stroke.

So while in theory you can assign skills to the basher at its moving phase, it's obviously more preferable to assign him a skill at its non-moving phase, at which it'll stay put at one location.  Which is why it helps to know how to calculate where you should start bashing.  Then you only need to count how many strokes you need to wait for, and then at the start of the stroke after the count, assign the skill, and you're guaranteed to have the skill assigned at the location you want, provided you started bashing at the exact location you calculated.

[ccexplore]

Actually, now down to just 5 builders on Mayhem 12.

I forgot to talk about how long the solution takes to complete.  Since the fewer number of builders do mean you have to do a little more work, I don't think you can do Mayhem 12 in under 2 minutes if you only have 5 builders.  Even 6 builders might be a bit of a stretch for under 2 minutes (but I won't be surprised if it's possible).

On my successful attempt, the clock actually reads 0-55 after the last lemming exited, although I definitely could've released the crowd much sooner, so under 3 minutes should be possible with 5 builders.

[ccexplore]

Regarding Mayhem 12, I also want to thank Ahribar for a tip/technique he talked about a long long time ago for some other level in Lemmings (I don't remember if it's a challenge or not, but at any rate the post with the tip/technique in question existed long before the challenge thread was even created.)  Since the tip is already somewhere in this forum, I'll leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to search for it himself/herself.

The tip is not specific to Mayhem 12 at all, it can be applied many other places I'm sure, it's just that this seems like the first time I've actually explicitly needed that tip/technique on a Lemmings level.  And no, it's not a glitch.

[ccexplore]

This is hardly a real challenge, but, just to confirm that it does work on the PC version:

Havoc 6:  100% without builders

Not surprisingly, you can do this under a minute.

[LemSteven]

Here's another fewer-builder challenge that is glitch-free:

Mayhem 17: &#A0;Save 100% using only 6 bridges. &#A0;Although, now that I think about it, it may be possible with 5 (I'll have to check). &#A0;It may be possible to lower the number even further with ccexplore's Tame 20 glitch, though.

Also, going on to the next level, I've extended Conway's challenge from earlier in the thread:

Mayhem 18: &#A0;Save 100% in less than 2 minutes.

I also worked on Tricky 9, and I beat it with only one builder. &#A0;I can't seem to get it builder-free, though.

[ccexplore]

Mayhem 17: &#A0;Save 100% using only 6 bridges. &#A0;Although, now that I think about it, it may be possible with 5 (I'll have to check). &#A0;It may be possible to lower the number even further with ccexplore's Tame 20 glitch, though.

I've looked into this briefly and will look again when I have time.  Though given the limited number of diggers miners and bashers available, this can be an interesting level where the lowest number of builders you can get away with will not yield 100%.  We'll see when I get around to trying things out.

[LemSteven]

Mayhem 17: &#A0;Save 100% using only 6 bridges. &#A0;Although, now that I think about it, it may be possible with 5 (I'll have to check). &#A0;It may be possible to lower the number even further with ccexplore's Tame 20 glitch, though.

100% with 5 bridges is now confirmed. &#A0;This barely works and it requires some precision, but it doesn't involve any glitches.

Hint: &#A0;You have to turn the lemmings around without using any bridges. &#A0;This is possible, but very annoying to pull off.

[guest]

Another one:

Taxing 1(If at first you don't succeed..): Save 100% with only 6 builders.

No glitches, again.