Author Topic: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]  (Read 7098 times)

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Offline Nepster

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Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« on: October 16, 2016, 03:17:47 PM »
Note: This was already partially discussed in the thread Maximum release rate?

Currently the RR 2n and 2n+1 result in the same spawn interval, i.e. identical game physics. In the discussion linked above no argument for keeping this duplication was found. Only a strong preference was expressed to keep the possibility to set the RR frame-precise. But even with this constraint several replacements were proposed, none of them a clear favorite:
1) Use RR 1-50
This would replace an old RR value by half of it (rounded up).
2) Use RR 1-99, but only the odd numbers
This way we could keep all odd RR values unchanged and only add 1 to all even RR values.
3) Use SI 53-4, i.e. change from release rate to spawn interval
This is the way Lix does measures RR: It displays the number of frames between spawning two lemmings. This might be more intuitive for new players, but (for players used to L1 or NeoLemmix) conversion from the current method is harder: RR n = SI (53 - floor(n / 2)).

Offline Simon

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 03:49:17 PM »
1) overloads the previously well-defined term "RR 50" with a second important, incompatible meaning. I doubt you can remove all previous meaning, L1 and its levels are ingrained in culture.
2) Hmm, consider 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, ..., 90, 92, 94, 96, 99.
3) loses the iconic RR 99, loses or inverts "+" and "-" on the buttons. How much porcelain are we allowed to smash? :lix-blush:

More reasonings in my post on Maximum release rate?

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Offline mobius

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 03:56:48 PM »
I don't like "spawn interval", this again just further makes the UI feel more like it's trying to explain all the intricate game mechanics, sort of like what the 'pure game physics mode' does. I don't want all this explained during the game, the more of this occurs, the less it feels like a game. Many players don't want a lesson in game physics or coding when playing. The game should feel like it's got it's own unique rules in it's own unique world.

It's the job of the game designer to translate the intricate game mechanics into this new language that's more easily understood for the player, OR reduce the need for such intricate mechanics to be understood by a player in the first place [no levels dictating the need for ridiculous RR adjustment!!]
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2016, 04:02:50 PM »
I don't like "spawn interval", this again just further makes the UI feel more like it's trying to explain all the intricate game mechanics, sort of like what the 'pure game physics mode' does. I don't want all this explained during the game, the more of this occurs, the less it feels like a game. Many players don't want a lesson in game physics or coding when playing. The game should feel like it's got it's own unique rules in it's own unique world.

I am with that.

Personally I am fine with 1.) or 2.) of Nepsters proposals.

Maybe a bit more of leaning to 2.) with Simons addition and we could keep the "RR 99 it" tradition. I do like even numbers a bit more ;)

Offline Nepster

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2016, 04:13:07 PM »
2) Hmm, consider 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, ..., 90, 92, 94, 96, 99.
Not so sure about this one, as it suggests that there is a smaller difference than usual when changing from 1 to 2 and a bigger change when going from 96 to 99.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2016, 06:39:43 AM »
I would personally suggest no change here. When setting the release rate, I generally like having nice-looking numbers, i.e.

1,2,3,5,10,15,20,25...80,85,90,95,99 (99 communicates "maxed out" fairly well if there's only room for 2 digits)

Something would just feel off about making a level with, say, a 51 or a 76 release rate, depending on which ones get culled.

If there are any levels that require enough precision for this to be a problem, I'd call it bad level design rather than a game mechanics flaw.

---

The other changes would be confusing because they'd have different meaning - although replacing release rate with spawn interval could be a reasonable option for players looking for precision.

EDIT: Specifically, I'm referring to allowing all of the values to be used in the editor. Say, for instance, we only used the odd values, you could still set the release rate to 50 in the editor so you've got a nice number for your default release rate (In addition, during gameplay, if the default RR is n, and you're at n+1, you could still scroll the RR down to n). Other than that I don't really care if all of the display numbers can be accessed during gameplay. Release Rates 1 and 99 should both be kept.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 06:54:25 AM by Dullstar »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2016, 06:55:51 PM »
I have to say I'm with Dullstar here, feels like there are plenty other more worthwhile improvements to pursue than this.  It's true that there are no good reasons for the duplication, but I honestly don't think anyone has actually voiced a complain about it unless you count Nepster starting this thread as one.  It sounds like there are enough entrenched expectations from Lemmings on particular release rate values that it is no longer entirely accurate to say "no argument for keeping this duplication was found". :-\

If a change must be made I guess #2 makes the most sense to me (always odd RRs).

Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 01:17:34 PM »
If we are going to make any change here (though to be honest, I'm really feeling like we don't need to), now is probably the best opportunity we're going to have to do so. So, what do we want to do?
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Online Proxima

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 01:50:30 PM »
My preference is for the 1-50 system, for the following reasons:

* The existing system has the disadvantage that new players don't realise RR 50 = RR 51 and, when trying to set a precise RR, waste time trying equivalent values.
* Keeping only odd numbers loses the aesthetic appeal of round numbers for levels' default values. New players are confused at why they can't set intermediate values.
* Keeping only even numbers is confusing at the two extremes, as Nepster mentioned. Same problem as above.
* Switching to spawn interval means that existing levels where a round number was chosen no longer have one. New players are confused at why the maximum is the weird number 53. There is an advantage in that it makes for an easier calculation when merging lemmings (count frames taken for a lemming to re-occupy its current position, set the SI to that) but this situation is rare, and easy enough to handle by intelligent trial and error.
* The only disadvantage I can see for 1-50 is that players used to the 1-99 system have to adjust. I'd expect that after a while, we would soon get used to the feel of the new system (just as we did for Lix's system). Any time a precise calculation is wanted, it's very simple: divide by 2.

Offline bsmith

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2017, 06:32:20 PM »
I am already used to setting odd numbers for release rates so I am most comfortable with option 2.

Offline Simon

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
Definition (HR). I will call Nepster's proposal 1, using values 1 slow through 50 fast, HR, half-rate. This name would obviously suck long-term, feel free to rename.

Quote
Switching to spawn interval means that existing levels where a round number was chosen no longer have one.

Both HR and SI un-round a round RR. For example, RR 50 becomes HR 26 and SI 28.

Quote
Any time a precise calculation [from RR to HR] is wanted, it's very simple: divide by 2.

No, it's complicated.

The exact math (click to show/hide)

Quote
New players are confused at why the maximum is the weird number 53.

Indeed, SI 53 is awkward. You can choose a rounder slowest value as you wish. That's a 100 % backwards-compatible change.

But SI 4 as the fastest value remains weird. There is no reason why it shouldn't go faster. RR 99 or HR 50 won't have this problem.

Quote
The only disadvantage I can see for 1-50 is that players used to the 1-99 system have to adjust.

Ambiguity seems dangerous. New player comes and talks about RR 50, what does it mean? I could only accept HR if we don't call it "release rate".



Reviewing options:

0) Keep RR with duplicates.

1) HR. This doesn't preserve round values and replaces a weird abstraction with another arbitrary abstraction. I don't see the merit behind this this?

2) Randomly poke holes in the RR 1-99 range. You wouldn't do this in a new design, it's interesting still by tradition.

3) Or switch to SI, ditching any fragile abstraction painted over the truth. This seems cleanest? möbius and Icho like the paint layer over SI though (displayed = constant - SI) and you must redesign the "+" and "-" buttons.

4) If faster values should be bigger numbers, maybe display spawn frequency from 1/53 to 1/4? <_<;

5) Is HR shifted by 1 sensible? RR 50 becomes HR' 25, RR 60 becomes HR' 30, and the extremal values are HR' 0 and HR' 49? Preserves round values from RR levels, but has 0. Spawning at a something-rate of zero?

6) <Simon> you can have a weird RR system that generally steps by 2, but every value ending in a decimal 4 gets an ending in 5 instead
<SimonN> then Dullstar gets the round values, newbs get no duplicates, and everybody gets thoroughly confused
<Proxima> :D




I don't see huge downsides in keeping RR, then switching to another system next year. The level format would have to parse two possible lines that set SI.

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« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:16:09 AM by Simon »

Offline mobius

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2017, 08:58:20 PM »
I've never run into this problem and see no need for a change.

I could live with the 1-50 suggestion, though it would take a little bit to get used to.

I'll quote my comment from above: "levels requiring extreme precision of RR adjustment are not good levels"
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 09:09:04 PM by möbius »
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Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2017, 11:01:17 PM »
Simon: The replay format would need such a change too. This is somewhat offset by that the new replay format has already been in use for quite some time (one of the few files to use a new-formats file format in the current stable builds, along with the metainfo file for lemming sprites) so needs this change even if we do it now.

Mobius: What about levels that require just one change to a non-min non-99 value (spoilery example mentioned below)? Or, for in challenge solutions, or when going for best time records?

A late LPIV level (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 11:07:09 PM by namida »
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Offline mobius

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2017, 11:17:00 PM »
I didn't mean to offend anyone's levels. I was just making a broad statement. Obviously I think there will always be exceptions to any rule. I personally don't care for that level of precision in any level anymore but that's my own opinion.

As it stands this RR issue never bothered me so I still don't care if nothing is changed. I pretty much like the way the RR works. [not 100% true; I have complaints but they regard other matters for another topic].

And why does the name have to change anyway? What does this have to do with anything? Release rate is a good name and it's fitting. I have strong aversions to being hung up on nomenclature.
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Offline mobius

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2017, 11:47:37 PM »
I just got an idea (which I have had before, no idea why I never mentioned it here or elsewhere)

Why does the slowest RR have to be what it currently is? Physically I mean, I'm not referring to naming schemes. Why not allow lemmings spawning even farther apart? I think I'd rather have that that any other change. Remove the duplication so 50= old 1. Then below 50 is even slower.

--!This wouldn' even need break existing levels (if this is possible)-- Set RR function so now everyone with levels with a existing normal RR is simply put between the new 50-99 appropriately where 50 is the minimum.

I also still believe min and max should be totally customizable by level creator.
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Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:04 AM »
I think mobius might actually be onto something here. It won't complicate the code at all to make this change (beyond a bit of backwards-compatibility stuff for replays and old format / other engine levels) either; it's pretty much just a matter of removing a "divide by 2" in one place in the physics code. The only downside is people would have to get used to the key values having changed (eg: RR 87, useful for some builder / platformer tricks, would now be RR 93), but I'd believe that if the Lix community was able to do this with SI, there's no reason the NeoLemmix community couldn't as well - and we'd still be keeping the system of 1 = slowest, 99 = fastest.

Likewise, most nice values will still come out nice. 99 is still 99. Any release rate that previously ended in 0, will now end in either 0 or 5 (eg: 90 is now 95; 80 is now 90; 70 is now 85; ... 10 is now 55). 1 is now 50, which is also a pretty nice value. The new "1" would be equivalent to what would be -97 under the current system, if negatives were allowed.

In fact, I'm even going to go ahead and say that, unless anyone comes up with a strong reason to object to it, I'm almost certianly going to use this idea. :) For those of you who'd really rather have SI than RR, I'm also going to add an option to use SI instead.

In regards to maximum release rates being configurable per-level, it was discussed in the past and decided against (though this did lead to the introduction of the locked RR option; and one could argue that locked RR is just the most extreme case of setting a maximum). I'm not opposed to revisiting this if people's feelings have changed, though.

Quote
I didn't mean to offend anyone's levels. I was just making a broad statement. Obviously I think there will always be exceptions to any rule. I personally don't care for that level of precision in any level anymore but that's my own opinion.

Wasn't taking offence. Was genuinely interested in whether your thoughts (about requiring excessive precise RR manipulation being bad) still apply in cases like this, where precise is needed but excessive use of it isn't? Or maybe the reverse case, such as "Flow Control" from OhNo, which requires a lot of changes but they don't have to be particularly precise?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 12:48:02 PM by namida »
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Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 02:27:29 PM »
I'm going to release an exp build with mobius's suggestion shortly, please try it out! It'll also have an option (not turned on by default) to use spawn interval instead of release rate altogether; try that out too if it interests you. Let me know if you find any bugs with that (or otherwise).

EDIT: Okay, the exp is up. Give it a try! :)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 03:05:33 PM by namida »
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Offline Nepster

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2017, 04:14:00 PM »
Quote
Ambiguity seems dangerous. New player comes and talks about RR 50, what does it mean? I could only accept HR if we don't call it "release rate".
Why not call the new scheme by möbius the "spawn rate" or "SR" for short?

Online Proxima

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2017, 04:18:58 PM »
In fact, I'm even going to go ahead and say that, unless anyone comes up with a strong reason to object to it, I'm almost certianly going to use this idea. :) For those of you who'd really rather have SI than RR, I'm also going to add an option to use SI instead.

I like the new scheme a lot :thumbsup: but isn't there a slight snag with the proposed option for SI? If new-style RRs go from 1 to 99, this corresponds to SI 4 to 102. Do you squeeze up the three-digit SIs, or what?

Offline mobius

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2017, 08:34:47 PM »
Why does the term need to be changed? Are people really going to understand it/ get used to it just because we change the term? It doesn't effect anything imo.
I don't like the term "Spawn interval" I don't like the way it sounds. I also don't see the terminology being very important. I like the sound of release rate. It's a rate; don't care about the technical definition, don't care if it's right or wrong. Lemmings get "released" from the entrance hatch or trap door. It sounds fitting to me. The RR physics can change drastically and I can still call it RR. I will in fact, even if everyone else stops calling it that.

I said this in another thread somewhere; [up above, in this same thread no doubt lol ]
The exact physics of the game do not need to be made clear to the player. The code's job is to execute the physics behind the scenes while creating an abstract second layer of 'physics' unique to this new game world that should be much simpler than the actual physics to understand. Players shouldn't be bombarded with lots of terminology and such.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:44:26 PM by möbius »
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Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2017, 02:47:12 AM »
Proxima: I completely overlooked that tbh. It would most likely cut off the leading 1 in the current exp build, thus displaying 100 as 00, 101 as 01 and 102 as 02 (or possibly, displaying all of these as infinite). I'll come up with some solution to this.

Mobius: "Spawn Interval" is an already established term in Lix, and is now used in NeoLemmix as an alternate mode. SI differs from RR in that lower SI = faster spawn. Although NeoLemmix now uses SI internally, this is not forced on the player, who can choose to see RR instead of SI (this is even the default option).
Nonetheless, the third term "spawn rate" was proposed to differentiate the new RR scale from the old one. Same behaviour - higher value = faster spawn, and doesn't directly represent the physics - but differentiates the old system from the new one without having to stress "NeoLemmix RR" vs "DOS RR". It might be useful when talking about levels that exist on multiple engines, in particular.

Essentially,
4 SI = 99 SR = 99 RR
28 SI = 75 SR = 50 RR
53 SI = 50 SR = 1 RR
102 SI = 1 SR (= -97 RR)
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2017, 03:49:36 PM »
Proxima: I completely overlooked that tbh. It would most likely cut off the leading 1 in the current exp build, thus displaying 100 as 00, 101 as 01 and 102 as 02 (or possibly, displaying all of these as infinite). I'll come up with some solution to this.

Mobius: "Spawn Interval" is an already established term in Lix, and is now used in NeoLemmix as an alternate mode. SI differs from RR in that lower SI = faster spawn. Although NeoLemmix now uses SI internally, this is not forced on the player, who can choose to see RR instead of SI (this is even the default option).
Nonetheless, the third term "spawn rate" was proposed to differentiate the new RR scale from the old one. Same behaviour - higher value = faster spawn, and doesn't directly represent the physics - but differentiates the old system from the new one without having to stress "NeoLemmix RR" vs "DOS RR". It might be useful when talking about levels that exist on multiple engines, in particular.

Essentially,
4 SI = 99 SR = 99 RR
28 SI = 75 SR = 50 RR
53 SI = 50 SR = 1 RR
102 SI = 1 SR (= -97 RR)

Good as long as I can still count on the old RR beeing there and the non problematic conversion of the old stuff I fully approve of the new system :thumbsup:

Having even slower RRs below 50 can lead to new interesting designs that are not dependant on multiple hatches to further slow down RR anymore.

Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 05:24:23 AM »
Something like the old RR will be there. It might have a different name, but aside from that (and using your 50-99 and allow slower values idea) it'll be the same.
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Offline namida

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Re: Remove duplication of RR-values [SUGGESTION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2017, 11:35:42 AM »
I like the new scheme a lot :thumbsup: but isn't there a slight snag with the proposed option for SI? If new-style RRs go from 1 to 99, this corresponds to SI 4 to 102. Do you squeeze up the three-digit SIs, or what?

Okay, I've addressed this now. Indeed, NeoLemmix just displayed such SIs as infinite. Now, it displays squashed up versions of the number. These are pre-rendered when the skill panel is created, so are actually even lighter on the CPU than regular two-digit skill numbers.
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