Poll

If you had to choose either "always allow" or "always prevent" for direct drop, which choice?

Always allow
2 (20%)
Always prevent
8 (80%)

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Author Topic: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options  (Read 20410 times)

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Offline namida

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2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« on: September 11, 2015, 03:15:09 PM »
Final decision on "Disable direct drop": The option will remain.
There is no final decision yet on "Timed bombers"

Currently, NeoLemmix allows for creator's choice in regards to these factors on custom NeoLemmix packs. I'm wondering whether people feel these options should remain available in V2.00n, or if they're considered obsolete now.

In general, virtually all NeoLemmix content does not use the timed bombers option. The only exception I can think of off-hand is GeoffLems, which was originally a traditional Lemmix pack. On the other hand, I believe the "disable direct drop" option is a bit more frequently used, and unlike the timed bombers option, was specifically requested. However, either of these options does mean some degree of inconsistency between packs with game physics - of course, with that being said, it can always be displayed in a pack's info what the settings are, so the player knows in advance. It could also be argued that Cheapo Mode is a precedent for allowing such differences, which certianly is nessecary to properly support Cheapo content without requiring extensive modifications (especially because of the fall distance being significantly different).

What are your thoughts on these?

(Note: The "timed bombers" option actually affects Stoners too, but I'm not aware of any packs that use Stoners *and* have the timed bombers option on. Thus it's primarily thought of as being associated with bombers.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 12:00:24 AM by namida »
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Offline Proxima

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 03:38:09 PM »
Keep both.

I would certainly use "disable direct drop" if producing NeoLemmix content (which I hope to in the future). This may be because I'm more used to games without it (I grew up on Mac Lemmings, and recently I've mostly played Lix); but I just feel the mechanics are "cleaner" without it -- if there is a long fall, you definitely have to find a way to break it into a series of survivable drops or create a slope (or use one already present elsewhere on the level). In the Cheapo days, direct drop was often an unwelcome source of backroutes that had to be clumsily prevented. I'm not arguing for taking direct drop out of the game completely, just explaining why I don't like it and would like to be able to disable it.

As for timed bombers, for a long time I've felt that if I ever created NeoLemmix content I would leave them timed, but now that I've actually had a go at playing with untimed bombers in the new Lix, I find that I would choose untimed. A few of my levels have used bomber timing as the primary source of difficulty, but there are also many of my old levels (LIX, Halfway Down the Stairs, Changing of the Guards, Behind Bars, Toccata, Hotel in Hell, Rhapsody in Blue...) where the extra difficulty of bomber timing just adds frustration and the level is much better with untimed bombers. Even so, I'd prefer the option to exist as others may want to use it.

Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 05:20:00 AM »
I assume "remove option to disable direct drop" means "never allow direct drop". Then yes, consider removing the option. Most perceive direct drop as an unwanted bug in L1.

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Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 06:50:31 AM »
Standard NeoLemmix mechanics (without any configured options) allows for it. This is in line with literally every other kind of object, which can affect a faller - would we expect, say, a fire area to not burn a lemming because they're falling? And what about floaters - it has always been the case that they are affected by an exit without needing to hit the ground first, in both L1 and NeoLemmix (including with Disable Direct Drop option active).

It also must be considered there are some graphic sets in NeoLemmix that are specifically designed to have midair exits - most notably, the Sky set - which may sometimes include accessing them by direct drop - though cases like this where it's the standard for a graphic set, rather than an occasional level that calls for it, could be handled by defining them as a slightly different object (perhaps splitting exit into "direct-droppable exit" and "not direct droppable exit").

In L1, an argument could be made that "the exit should behave differently, because unlike other objects, it is helpful to the lemmings, not harmful", but the exit is no longer the only object with this distinction in NeoLemmix (with other potentially helpful objects including pickup skills, updrafts, antisplat pads, teleporters...). The only one of these that requires the lemming to be standing on ground is the anti-splat pad, and that's specifically because it affects a faller's interaction with the ground while inside its trigger area. In the case of updrafts in particular, it would make zero sense to require the lemming to be standing on ground; and levels have been made that require nabbing a pickup skill in mid-air. It should also be noted that, going by an established, consistent, behaviour, the best analogy is to teleporters - both will affect a falling lemming. Because the exit removes the lemming from the level, it never reaches the point at which it splats. On the other hand, a teleporter, the lemming will go through it, then splat on the other side if it were coming from a too-high fall.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 07:01:15 AM by namida »
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 08:25:25 AM »
This is in line with literally every other kind of object, which can affect a faller - would we expect, say, a fire area to not burn a lemming because they're falling?

One can argue that rather than the exit object innately causing the lemming to exit, it is only the lemming itself who recognizes the exit and reacts accordingly.  In that interpretation the exit can be expected to be different from everything else, and one can construct arguments around lemmings unable to successfully perform an exiting maneuver whenever they are performing certain actions like falling.

Still, it is a fair point that "exit as sucking black hole actively affecting lemmings" concept is more consistent with pretty much how every other object except entrance trapdoors work in Lemmings.  And I don't really have a satisfying way to explain the discrepancy between faller and floaters in exiting, other than speed (except of course, even before the floater actually starts slowing down, it still has exiting capability).

From a pragmatist viewpoint, I think people dislike direct drop mainly as it tends to be a source of backroutes.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 08:57:38 AM »
There are other ways backroutes can be solved. Perhaps an alternative choice to having two different sets of mechanics, is for some kind of trap to be created for every graphic set that's specifically designed to sit above the exit, and be highly visible while having minimal interference with thing outside of direct dropping. The downside here would be, the absence of it would specifically hint at a level being solved via (or at least using at some point) a direct drop, unless the creator made sure to only use it where specifically needed to prevent a backroute. This has already been used in some cases where the graphic set already provides for such, most notably with the flamethrowers / ice blowers in the Fire / Snow sets.

This kind of tradeoff would allow direct drop-caused backroutes to be avoided in the majority of cases, while still allowing for a consistent set of mechanics that doesn't break existing levels that specifically rely on direct drop. I can think of a few such cases in my levels, with varying impact if direct drop were to be removed.


Quote
One can argue that rather than the exit object innately causing the lemming to exit, it is only the lemming itself who recognizes the exit and reacts accordingly.  In that interpretation the exit can be expected to be different from everything else, and one can construct arguments around lemmings unable to successfully perform an exiting maneuver whenever they are performing certain actions like falling.

I see your point here, though I would think the same could be argued for at least teleporters and perhaps even pickup skills; maybe not so much so for updrafts and anti-splat pads.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 11:23:20 AM by namida »
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Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 09:28:17 AM »
Yes, the exit should handle fallers differently than other gadgets.

The L1 exit never sucks in fallers. The exit sucks in splatters and floaters.

Lemmix was designed with a black-box-approach, by replicating the behavior, not the coding logic. It's therefore possible that in Lemmix, fallers with ground can exit, and the Lemmix code explicitly allows this, whereas fallers are forbidden to exit in the unknown L1 source with identical behavior. They turn to splatters in L1, and immediately become exiters in the same frame.

The most probable explanation behind the L1 behavior is: The devs have programmed all the gadgets, then notice that fallers exit, and they didn't want that that. So they test would-be-exiters for being a faller, and don't have them exit. They then completely forget that splatters might happen in front of the exit. And they have never tested it with floaters in particular, because mentally, they're neither too different from fallers nor from workers.

I'm extremely confident in this assertion because I have experienced it myself from the developer perspective. In 2003, I had written a Lemmings clone called GS Lemmings within 2 or 3 months, a Lua game running within a C++/A4 game that allowed for extensive Lua scripting. I have no idea anymore what test level eventually led up to the decision that fallers should not exit, but to ignoring splatters at the same time. Eventually, a user painted a level featuring exits without ground, and you had to float lemmings in.

So, this is the psychological explanation. You don't have to analyze how Lemmix works, you have to analyze the behavior that it tries to exactly replicate, no matter how Lemmix's own code would look afterwards. The L1 devs would never have come up with this on purpose. It's an unwanted bug.

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 09:37:43 AM by Simon »

Offline Nepster

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 09:38:07 AM »
There are other ways backroutes can be solved. Perhaps an alternative choice to having two different sets of mechanics, is for some kind of trap to be created for every graphic set that's specifically designed to sit above the exit, and be highly visible while having minimal interference with thing outside of direct dropping.
That would disable non-fatal drops to the exit and lemmings building over the exit (or doing some other stuff) may trigger this additional trap. 

Still, it is a fair point that "exit as sucking black hole actively affecting lemmings" concept is more consistent with pretty much how every other object except entrance trapdoors work in Lemmings.
True for L1, but the other objects are hazards and having lemmings actively working on committing suicide would be very weird...
Secondly your statement is less valid for L2: The sprites of the catapult and the cannon explicitely hint that lemmings actively modify these objects and not the other way round. Do you know, whether these objects trigger for falling lemmings as well?

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 10:17:43 AM »
Quote
That would disable non-fatal drops to the exit and lemmings building over the exit (or doing some other stuff) may trigger this additional trap. 

This is a valid point. I did think of the building over the exit situation, but I couldn't think of cases where this would need to be done at such a position that the trap (in practice, most likely a fire object rather than a triggered trap) could be located so it doesn't affect it. Of course, I haven't played every level ever (nor do I remember every level I have played) so I could be overlooking something. In terms of non-fatal drops to the exit, similarly, this kind of trap would just be one method the creator could use to avoid it; alternative methods (which too have also seen use in current levels) could include placing steel (or even regular terrain, if no suitable destruction skill is available) in a position that avoids the direct drop. No fix can universally suit all levels, but the more options are available, the less likely an option that gives rise to inconsistent physics need be included.

The alternative point of view, of course, can also be considered - adding options such that direct drop is no longer needed. The question then arises of what impacts it might have on levels that have been designed around it working, especially cases where the usability of it isnt' meant to be immediately obvious.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:32:29 AM by namida »
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Offline Nepster

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 10:50:22 AM »
Indeed, in all instances I remember, putting either traps or terrain somewhere over the exit works to prevent backroutes. But if we decide to stick to that, then the current options are sufficient and we don't need an alternative exit&trap object. Mixing the exit&trap object option and the usual exit&terrain option would only make the downside "usual exit = direct drop works" more serious.
IMO the whole point of (optionally) disabling direct drops is to replace such (sometimes non-reliable) case-by-case modifications with terrain pieces or traps by one universal change in the game mechanics.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2015, 11:59:59 PM »
It seems that people are universally in favor of keeping the "disable direct drop" option, while opinions are a bit mixed on whether or not timed bombers should be kept as an option. I'll leave the timed bombers thing open for discussion for now; personally I'd love to see it go as aside from frustrating the player via bomber timing (and a somewhat-artificial fix for backroutes that involve using a bomber early in the level; which can easily be substituted for with a pickup skill in most cases) it doesn't really serve any purpose. But if there's really a lot of interest in keeping it...
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Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2015, 10:11:30 AM »
No need for an urgent consensus here - but does anyone have any really strong feelings as to why timed bombers should stay? I would strongly like to remove this option if not.

In particular, input from Lix players (who've already gone through such a change from timed bombers to nontimed bombers recently) would be nice to hear. :)
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Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2015, 11:22:24 AM »
It seems that people are universally in favor of keeping the "disable direct drop" option

No. Fix the physics bug that is direct drop, and abolish the option. :->

Quote
strong feelings as to why timed bombers should stay

Remove altogether, including removal of the option, for simplicity.

There exists behavior that you can't replicate with untimed exploders: Assign, touch zombie, walk on for a while, then explode. This is a curiosity of the many extra features and should not be a concern for the core game design.

Lix users were happy about untimed singleplayer exploders.

In general, you shouldn't make physics depend on level-specific settings. That would only confuse players. They can't play levels anymore without carrying along cruft in the back of their head.

For experiencing bug levels in all their glitchy glory, there's vanilla Lemmix.

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« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:28:49 AM by Simon »

Offline geoo

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2015, 12:38:18 PM »
It seems that people are universally in favor of keeping the "disable direct drop" option

No. Fix the physics bug that is direct drop, and abolish the option. :->
Seconded. Direct drop is a nuisance being a source of backroutes, while I don't think any level should use it legitimately as it's rather obscure and not quite in the spirit of the game. If you really wanted to replicate it you could just place a little landing block over the exit to allow a safe fall without fooling new players unaware of this behaviour.
Or at least have to default behaviour be no direct drop. Having an option though has the big downside that there will be an inconsistency between level packs that is not easily visible until you test it out, and in fact a player might test the behaviour in a level pack without direct drop and then conclude it's impossible, and then choking on a level designed to explicitly use direct drop in another level pack.

The option for timed bombers is a lot more visible and thus wouldn't cause such an issue. But I don't think any lix player really misses the timed bomber in singleplayer. Most levels for whom bomber timing was an element of difficulty are still non-trivial with instant bombers, and if you have a level that becomes outright trivial without bomber timing then it's a bland level in the first place.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 01:39:47 PM »
Alright then. While it's strongly not my preference to remove it altogether, I've put a poll up. If enough people are in favor of removing it entirely, I'll do so. (Personally, my preference is "always allow it", but I can see that this option is definitely not going to be popular; hence why I'm currently leaning towards "make it an option".)

To those of you who do advocate removing it - what's your opinion on whether floaters / gliders should be able to use an exit while falling, and if you're in favor of "yes, they should", why do you figure this should be different from a faller? I'm not sure what Lix's behaviour is in this regard, but as far as I'm aware, every other engine allows this, and there is nothing in Lemmix's code (and presumably, in turn, in DOS L1's code) that would suggest this is a bug rather than intentional.
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Offline geoo

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 03:54:49 PM »
The poll currently doesn't support what should be the default option in the case of making it optional.
But I can only repeat my caveat of making it an option from my previous post -- the physics will be inconsistent in a non-obvious way from game to game and players might consider the behaviour impossible when it is needed (even if this might only affect a handful of levels). Leaving it always allowed is preferrable to me over making it an option for this reason.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 03:56:12 PM »
First, decide if there's an option at all; then we can decide on default settings.

And that can easily be solved by displaying in a pack's information whether or not direct drop is allowed.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 04:58:11 PM »
No need for an urgent consensus here - but does anyone have any really strong feelings as to why timed bombers should stay? I would strongly like to remove this option if not.

In particular, input from Lix players (who've already gone through such a change from timed bombers to nontimed bombers recently) would be nice to hear. :)

I've actually changed my mind on this -- I don't think they should stay.

I'll admit, part of the reason I took so long to come over to this view is that I remember how much fun it was to play through Lemmings the first time. Simon or geoo would say "nostalgia" as if that somehow makes my feelings invalid. I can't see what's wrong with looking at what I enjoyed in the past when trying to decide what I would enjoy in the future.

But NeoLemmix (and Lix) are fundamentally different games from Lemmings. Original Lemmings isn't really a puzzle game in the same sense NL and Lix are. Each level presents you with a challenge, and one of the main sources of enjoyment (along with the cuteness, the music, etc....) is satisfaction at overcoming a challenge that frustrated you. Some of this comes from having to work out new approaches -- especially on the levels that come closest to being true puzzles, like Compression Method 1 and No added colours or lemmings. But it also comes from the execution difficulty and the difficulty of resource management -- so I completely disagree with attaching the label "fake difficulty" to bomber timing, at least as regards the original game.

With both NL and Lix, there is a deliberate choice to concentrate on the difficulty of finding solutions, and to remove execution difficulty. Both games now offer frame-stepping, so that you can undo a wrong move immediately and without penalty. Bomber timing just doesn't fit into this framework -- it doesn't add difficulty at all, so there is no satisfaction in getting it right. (Incidentally, this very closely parallels a paradigm shift that has taken place in the DROD series, with the last instalment offering unlimited undo -- and the inevitable heated disputes over whether this is a good thing or ruins the game.)

I don't think the new framework is necessarily better in an absolute sense, but it certainly suits puzzle fans a lot better, as they can enjoy the puzzle aspect of Lemmings/Lix without unwanted execution difficulty getting in the way. And, while I did enjoy Lemmings and I do enjoy some games that are not puzzly at all, such as Touhou, I am also a puzzle fan so I'm happy for NL/Lix to be the way it is :)

* * *

Moving on to direct drop. I'm pretty sure Simon is correct that it was originally an unwanted side effect of disabling fallers exiting but forgetting that a faller could become a splatter, who could then exit. I seem to remember that ccexplore confirmed this by looking into the code of the original game.

The argument by parallelism with traps doesn't work. Once it's established that lemmings walking into a fire are destroyed, I would expect lemmings falling into a fire to be destroyed. But being able to walk into an exit does not imply being able to fall a long distance and survive if you happen to land on an exit. Lemmings' falling physics are not very realistic, with zero acceleration and with death being determined solely by distance, but since the game includes the ability of long falls to kill, I would expect long falls to kill regardless of what is underneath.

I would also prefer floaters to be unable to exit directly -- and I think that is the case in Mac L1. I could be wrong there, and I don't know at all about Amiga L1.

Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2015, 05:49:22 PM »
Proxima: Yes, agree with how L1 didn't want to be a pure puzzle game. There is nothing wrong with nostalgia. Subtractive game design and contemplating old games are different things.

namida: I feel floaters shouldn't exit in mid-air, but I can't make a strong argument, unlike for the fallers/splatters. Lix doesn't allow floaters to exit. Lix only allows lems to exit whenever they could alternatively be assigned builder, basher, miner, or the like.

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Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 02:42:40 AM »
It seems opinion is very mixed here. A lot of the arguments against come from a claim that it's "a bug", which appears to be true for L1 - but virtually since the first release, NeoLemmix has intentionally allowed this; it's not a matter of "in NeoLemmix, a faller can't exit but a splatter can"; it's a matter of "in NeoLemmix, a faller can, by design, exit".

So while I do encourage discussion - otherwise I'd've shut this topic down and said "it's staying, no more debate accepted" - it needs to be thought of in the context of a physics change / option, not the context of a bugfix.

The one thing that does seem clear is that no one wants it to be always-enabled. This would mean that if an option is not implemented to let a content designer choose, I'd take this as sufficient reason to go with the "disabled" rather than "enabled" as the one constant setting. However, beyond that, it does seem more people are in favor of the option than of completely removing it, even if these people are not as vocal about their reasoning.
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Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2015, 11:12:08 AM »
You'd rather serve a poll's 5:4 majority than consider arguments why it's bad design to have this option?

There's a ton of psychology going into polls like this. People are generally afraid of change, and often believe the status quo is somehow good enough. The option will neatly do this, and can't harm anyone, right? It's perfectly obvious to some what to click without contemplation.

But the option brings serious harm -- hidden inconsistency that will eventually surface during play. This is horrible for beginners, and bad for experienced players, too. I don't believe all of its voters have understood this. Not a single one has explained how the option provides enough benefit to warrant the inconsistency.

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 11:46:05 AM by Simon »

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 12:02:08 PM »
The benefit would be that for a long time it was the only option in NeoLemmix mechanics - the option to disable it was (reluctantly) added in, IIRC, V1.35n-B; and enabling it is still the default, the option is not even present in the quick pack properties editor in the Flexi Toolkit, but only in the more-detailed SYSTEM.DAT editor in the NeoLemmix Editor. There are levels out there that rely on this behaviour, some of which could not easily be adjusted to not rely on it - especially if the creator wishes to stay within the "traditional" options (those not so worried about this could often solve it via the use of updrafts). Therefore, the benefit is reducing the number of existing mechanics that are being changed. And as mentioned before - there is even an entire graphic set (the Sky set) that is designed around the assumption that such a mechanic exists; certianly not to the point it won't function otherwise, but to the point where the exit is clearly designed to be placed in mid-air rather than on terrain. And yes, multiple levels using this set rely on a direct drop. (One possible answer to this is to allow two different types of exit objects - one that allows direct drop, one that does not. This is arguably an even worse solution than having a pack-wide option.)

The option was, for the most part, added because one content creator was so adamant about not wanting it, that rather than allow it (or design their levels to prevent it), their preference was to modify the source to create a customized version of NeoLemmix that does not allow it. Given that someone was willing to go to such lengths - which would also potentially cause hassle during development of their pack, not to mention needing to re-modify the source code if they wished to update to a newer engine version - I relented and quietly snuck in the option to disable it, to save them the hassle (you might notice that the changelogs, to both the player and the editor, make no mention of this option being added). Had it not been for this, the question would not even be on the table.

I do agree that having an option is less favorable than having it fixed to one setting or the other. In this regard, yes - more people say "always disable" than "always enable", but the majority opinion of all is "make it creator's choice". Yes, this does introduce an inconsistency, but I would also think it clearly indicates that there are people who want to be able to use this mechanic in their levels.

Perhaps another angle we should look at - is there a good way to solve this problem, without forcing those who want to use this mechanic not to, and without introducing an inconsistency? The two-types-of-exit approach mentioned above is one such method, but as I mentioned, not a very good one. If an alternative way to handle this comes up, then that reduces the need to have it as an option. (One possibility, perhaps - since overlapping trigger areas should be much less problematic in NX2 than they currently are - is extending the "floaters and gliders can exit" to include "fallers passing through an updraft can exit" as well. However, this does come back to that it makes the approach much more obvious in levels that do use it, than a pack-global option or consistent allow-it behaviour would.)

I've put up yet another poll - removing the "pack creator's choice" option, and instead asking which people would prefer if it had to be one or the other consistent behaviours. If there's a strong opinion in favor of don't allow it, then perhaps we'll say goodbye to direct drop - feel free to give input on what should happen regarding levels that rely on it. If it's mixed, or in favor of keep it, then it looks like giving pack creators an option is the only way forward - with a clear indication in the pack's information as to what the pack's setting is, I have not at any point considered keeping it "secret" that a pack allows it or not.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is NOT saying that I'm no longer considering making it an option; this is just in the hopes that asking what people would prefer if it had to be one or the other, might give a better indication of whether or not the option should be there. (Perhaps I should've divided the "make it an option" choice into two choices, depending on what the person themself would prefer to use...)



On a note unrelated to direct drop, but related to the initial subject of this topic - I think it's pretty clear that we are no longer going to have a "timed bombers" option. However, the physics do still need to allow for a countdown, for the radiation and slowfreeze objects to work properly. With that in mind - since the skill is instant, but it would not be difficult to have a timer in this case - should the Nuke continue to have a 5 second countdown? (Since any nuking is generally going to result in the end of the level, except in surviving-bombers levels (and in that case, it makes little difference whether it's timed or not; since you could just wait 5 seconds longer before hitting it), this is more or less a purely cosmetic question.)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 12:27:41 PM by namida »
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Offline mobius

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 01:11:00 PM »
I guess I should have spoke earlier but it's too late now
I want there to be a choice.
I'm not voting in this poll. I already voted for the middle option, which you got rid of.
On my phone can't say much
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Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2015, 01:33:52 PM »
I realise that the most popular preference is to have an option. That's precisely the point of this new poll - to either show, or prove wrong, that there is a need for an option and simply going to "don't allow it" is not the preferred decision.
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Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2015, 01:45:57 PM »
The correct path seems to be examining the exits, and see what can be done here. Are most of the levels relying on direct drop made with the sky set? A per-pack option would be unfitting then, because the sky set is chosen per level, not per pack.

Other sets have exits looking like an arc, or like a walkway, where you have to walk in conciously. Those who like direct drop, would you want fallers/floaters to enter this? (NL is designed explicitly such that they do.)

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Offline mobius

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2015, 09:15:23 PM »
Sorry for the quick/weird post but these topics go away so fast I can't keep up.

While I, myself, don't really care whether the direct drop is used or not, if I had to choose; I would chose not, it does cause backroutes, and I personally don't prefer it, but having the option is nice for a few reasons.

Every levelpack that's made can be thought of as a new "game" made by that creator and can be unique to that creator. The more options the creator has the more unique and interesting it can be. The rules of the game shouldn't be decided by one person because they think it's better that way. I still think timed bombers should be an option to this benefit as well. I also don't like them very much; now that I got used to non-timed bombers, but they present a different type of challenge that some people like. The more diverse the game can be the more interesting.

Like Proxima pointed out; the games have moved in a direction that favors complex puzzle solving and almost gotten rid of any other aspects. That's nice for those that like that, but not for the people that liked the game for the other reasons.
I'm not saying I want to bring back annoying annoying mechanics, but having the option to diversify the type of game you create is a really cool and powerful tool. Someone may want to make a levelpack which is similar to Fun of OL, with very types of challenges or has an "old school" feel to it.

I don't think anyone's mentioned that in Revolution direct drop was a desired game mechanic; one level actually requires it to solve. However perhaps this is a better example of how it "works" in that case because the lemmings "jump" into the exit balloon. So "falling" into the balloon is a little different than "walking into an exit."
Still, I remember the first time I played and I was hoping or expected direct drop to work. I don't remember what level it was on but it was either OL or ONML when I was much younger. It was one of those things like, I was hoping you could walk on top of the entrance while playing Lemmings in the Attic.

[I did vote btw]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 01:16:54 AM by möbius »
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Offline Nepster

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2015, 10:47:05 PM »
This new poll seriously confuses me, so let me state my opinion here in words:
- If I would be the king of the world and only my point of view counts, then direct drops would be disabled completely.
- If there are some level designers who want to use direct drops not only for convenience but as an integral part of levels, then I would prefer keeping this option.

But the option brings serious harm -- hidden inconsistency that will eventually surface during play. This is horrible for beginners, and bad for experienced players, too. I don't believe all of its voters have understood this. Not a single one has explained how the option provides enough benefit to warrant the inconsistency.
While this is a valid argument, I don't think it's quite as bad (in the case of direct drops) as you want to make us believe. There are currently other quirks of NeoLemmix that are worse in this respect, e.g.
- the precise climber mechanics (I am currently undecided whether to start a new thread to discuss them or not)
- glider mechanics (when do they turn around compared to just drop a little in height?)
- disarmers not disarming traps that are currently triggered.
True, all of these points do not change from level pack to level pack, but understanding them in the first place is much more complicated than to check out direct drops.

And if we use your argument, then there should be no options to change the entrance order to ABBA or to change the max. fall distance. But both options are currently supported by the editor V1.35D, though we may of course decide to change that as well...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:18:47 AM by Nepster »

Offline Simon

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2015, 02:40:29 AM »
But the option brings serious harm -- hidden inconsistency that will eventually surface during play.
While this is a valid argument, I don't think it's quite as bad (in the case of direct drops) as you want to make us believe. There are currently other quirks of NeoLemmix that are worse in this respect

The other examples all have exactly one quirky way that can be learned by the player, and then future behavior can be anticipated.

I agree that the other examples can bring seemingly inconsistent behavior and are harder to understand.

Quote
And if we use your argument, then there should be no options to change the entrance order to ABBA or to change the max. fall distance. But both options are currently supported by the editor V1.35D, though we may of course decide to change that as well...

Correct, I'd suggest removing these options.

Max fall distance relies on careful judgement, you don't want to disturb that. Entrance order, you can make 4 instead of 2 hatches and get any entrance order you want.

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Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2015, 05:15:19 AM »
Fall distance is not directly editable in NeoLemmix levels. It only exists in the form of "Cheapo Mode", which is strongly advised against using in any new levels, and exists only for the purpose of converted Cheapo levels - it should be noted also that the fall distance change here cannot be decoupled from the other changes that Cheapo Mode applies. The "Fall Distance" option you see in the editor that allows directly choosing a value is for (Super)Lemmini levels, which do support arbitrary distances; this option is disabled when editing a (Neo)Lemmix level.

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- the precise climber mechanics (I am currently undecided whether to start a new thread to discuss them or not)
It's definitely something that needs to be discussed; I myself was going to create a topic on this at a later date.

Quote
- glider mechanics (when do they turn around compared to just drop a little in height?)
IIRC, it's consistent with swimmers (or walkers in no-gravity levels).

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Entrance order, you can make 4 instead of 2 hatches and get any entrance order you want.

Which is precisely why there is zero logic in not having that option. Because the exact same effect can be achieved simply by placing however many entrances is needed for the desired order. So, it makes sense to allow simply choosing a custom order out of X number of custom exits, rather than requiring some to be duplicated (which would be an especially huge headache if the level designer later decided to change the order).
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Offline Nepster

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2015, 07:39:36 AM »
Fall distance is not directly editable in NeoLemmix levels. It only exists in the form of "Cheapo Mode", which is strongly advised against using in any new levels, and exists only for the purpose of converted Cheapo levels - it should be noted also that the fall distance change here cannot be decoupled from the other changes that Cheapo Mode applies. The "Fall Distance" option you see in the editor that allows directly choosing a value is for (Super)Lemmini levels, which do support arbitrary distances; this option is disabled when editing a (Neo)Lemmix level.
I am talking about the option "60Px Fall Distance" I see in the System.DAT Editor. As this is checked e.g. in the LPDOS preset, I thought one could change this for NeoLemmix levels as well?

Quote
- glider mechanics (when do they turn around compared to just drop a little in height?)
IIRC, it's consistent with swimmers (or walkers in no-gravity levels).
I never claimed it was inconsistent. But I cannot (in any of these cases) decide what will happen simply by only looking at the terrain. The glider is the worst in this respect, because it is not easy to determine the pixel it is positioned on.

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Entrance order, you can make 4 instead of 2 hatches and get any entrance order you want.
Which is precisely why there is zero logic in not having that option. Because the exact same effect can be achieved simply by placing however many entrances is needed for the desired order. So, it makes sense to allow simply choosing a custom order out of X number of custom exits, rather than requiring some to be duplicated (which would be an especially huge headache if the level designer later decided to change the order).
Sorry, but due to this option I always place 4 hatches in a level instead of only 2 or 3 and I cannot confirm that changing the order is an especially huge headache.
I think Simon's argument goes as follows: The standard option will be used in most levels and only few make use of doubling up hatches to change this order. So it boils down to the question: What does the player expect and then get in a level where the entrance order does not matter?
And as you said: Having this option doesn't create more choices for level designer. So we might look to secondary arguments to decide whether to keep this option or not. And Simon has such an argument against it.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2015, 07:56:52 AM »
Quote
I am talking about the option "60Px Fall Distance" I see in the System.DAT Editor. As this is checked e.g. in the LPDOS preset, I thought one could change this for NeoLemmix levels as well?

Ah. This one only applies to traditional Lemmix, not to NeoLemmix. (They share a common SYSTEM.DAT format, apart from a few options that only apply to one or the other; in these cases, the other one simply ignores the option in question.) This is due to the various sets of "traditional" mechanics; the fall distance is one such area in which they vary (out of the defaults; Orig and OhNo use 60px while Cust uses 63px, IIRC)
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Offline geoo

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2015, 08:48:18 AM »
I started writing this post 24 hours ago so some of the things have already been said by now by the time I complete it, but anyway...

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And that can easily be solved by displaying in a pack's information whether or not direct drop is allowed.
Which no-one is gonna read (I doubt you're gonna put it in big bold red letters on the title screen of a level pack), or even understand in case of players not aware of the behavior.
Ultimately it's not so much an issue to people who are aware of this thread and thus know this issue exists, but if you hand various level packs to someone not involved in the community, if they'd even test out the behaviour to see if it works, they'd then come to a conclusion that doesn't apply universally.
I don't see the point in comparing this to other weird mechanics Nepster mentioned; once you got these figured out, even if they are not intuitive, you can trust your findings.

You should just decide which physics you're gonna use and roll with it. Simon and I agree that having direct drop ('bad physics' -- Simon) is better than having inconsistent physics via an option. (For the record, Proxima doesn't agree.)
In the same vein there should be no other options affecting physics.

Options always tend to be a nice compromise solution and I'm not surprised at all that it ended up being a popular choice in the poll. But there's a difference between options for the player and options for the level designer that have an effect on the player (obviously UI options for the level designer in the editor are not an issue). While the former kind of option is something that the player might not even enounter, the latter kind of option has to be carefully considered.


Quote
There are levels out there that rely on this behaviour, some of which could not easily be adjusted to not rely on it - especially if the creator wishes to stay within the "traditional" options (those not so worried about this could often solve it via the use of updrafts).
If you want to stick to traditional options, use Lemmix. I don't get that rationale, if you don't want to use updrafts to fix your level, that's your problem. I'm highly not convinced that there are levels that need an elaborate fix to work, I'm happy to be proven otherwise with a concrete example. Is the sky set extensively used outside of the Lemmings Plus series?
Either way, levels requiring changes due to using the behaviour are easy to track down (you know the intended solution), while tracking down levels that require the assumption that the is no such mechanic is hard as you'd have to look for possible backroutes in each individually.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2015, 10:08:30 AM »
Okay - how many people have a problem with the following:

> Faller in free fall = can't exit
> Faller in updraft = can exit
> Floater / Glider = can exit
> Otherwise, the lemming can only exit if it's standing on solid ground (this would include various states, as long as it wasn't a "dying" state such as drowning, burning, splatting, etc)

Floaters and gliders are generally not present in large enough quantities to open up backroutes via this method; levels do exist that require gliding into an exit (I'm not so sure about floating, but there might be some). Most levels that require a direct drop could potentially be solved - at the expense of making the solution more obvious - by allowing "faller in updraft can exit"; in particular, the Sky set (where this is most likely to become a problem) has an updraft object, as do the graphic sets used in all but one of the other levels of mine I can think of that use direct drop for the main solution (talisman solutions are another matter, but this is not as critical).

Additionally, updrafts could be included in a "generic object collection" style, making this fix usable even with graphic sets that don't include one currently. Placing an antisplat pad at the exit would also be an option.
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Offline geoo

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2015, 10:47:35 AM »
Wait, if there's such a thing as a splat pad, why don't you just place a little chunk of terrain under the exits together with a splat pad? That basically solves the issue in all instances, be it normal lix doing direct drop, or floaters or hang gliders flying into the exit. Then the rule gets as simple as possible with everything that's in the air unable to exit. Yet in any level requiring direct drop or hang gliders exiting you can just place a chunk of terrain optionally with a splat pad (which should be part of the generic object collection anyway).

If the above works as I imagine, that I think it'd be a very clean solution.
If not, I find forcing the user to find out that you can use a floater or hang glider to exit is a little obscure but as long as it's consistent over all level packs somewhat acceptable if the sky set really is designed to make excessive use of that.

Offline namida

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Re: 2.00 "Disable direct drop" and "Timed bombers" options
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2015, 05:37:28 AM »
Okay - final decision here, alright, no direct drop as a standard mechanic.

As for how to handle the sky set - if we allow fallers in updrafts to exit, then updrafts can be placed over exits that need to be used in mid-air. Otherwise, an option is to specify on a per-exit basis (at the level of the object data, not at the level of each-individual-exit-in-a-level-has-its-own-setting), but this seems very untidy and inconsistent; whereas the use of updrafts is merely a bit of aesthetic damage. Although the per-exit setting could work, provided that creators be sure to graphically differentiate which ones can and cannot be direct dropped - the Sky exit is very visually distinct from all other exits, after all. As far as I can recall, the Sky exit is the only one so far that would lend itself to this kind of usage inherently (actually placing the exit in midair; as opposed to placing it on solid ground but requiring a direct drop to access it - which is a situation which can be addressed fairly well with antisplat pads).

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« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:46:03 AM by namida »
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