Author Topic: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!  (Read 46678 times)

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Offline geoo

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Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« on: July 02, 2014, 05:13:07 PM »
Finally I'm able to present a first complete beta of the lix community level set! 6 ratings of 40 levels each. No hints yet, but you can see them in the xls spreadsheet (see below). Especially me and Insane Steve still have to write hints for our levels.

Download of the level pack: https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/zipball/gh-pages
Level list, alphabetic (html): http://geoo89.github.com/lixlfpack/
Level list, alphabetic (xls spreadsheet): https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/blob/gh-pages/lixlfpack.xls?raw=true

Please make sure to use the latest version of lix (2015-09-02 or newer) to play these levels! You can get it here: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1021.msg21098#msg21098 And please refer to levels by their name rather than their rating and number, as the rating and number might still change.

I'm in the process of compiling a solution archive that contains at least one solution for each level. I will use that to verify that all levels are solvable, also for upcoming version. At this point I don't have a 100% guarantee that all levels are solvable, but don't have any reason to believe that the latest physics changes broke anything (I updated Trading and Cooperation for the new version). Once I've verified that all levels are solvable, I'll post that here.

For those who have not played the set before: Please record your solutions and post them here! Also tell us about levels that you thought were too hard or too easy for their position. There's also a folder 'outtakes' with levels that I moved out but that are still decent levels. You can have a look at these too and say if you think there's a level amongst the 240 official levels that could maybe be replaced with one of these because you e.g. feel it's better.



Proposed changes that will/might appear in some future version:
picard maneuver -> heels
Triangle Ineq: Enforce Akseli's variation? -- No
The last laugh: Enforce Akseli's variation?
Change Builder to Basher in 'Climb to Freedom'?
Slipping and Slipping Again: Replace Slipping Again with Top Gear or the original tseug version of Slipping? Fix Slipping.
Replace Three Days of the Condor with Lixes in Motion.
Sneak in The Mile High Club or some other of Ramon's levels
Absolute Zero or its Eye of the Needle? (Two other levels already use the Abs. Zero trick)
Follow the Yellow Brick Road – This was easier than Charge of the Lix Brigade imo (Akseli).
Backroute fixes:
Look at Well OK then. -- Leave as is.
Vicious 1: enforce use of a miner/digger at the very right?
Check levels where assigning a bomber within the first 5 seconds opens backroutes
Fix Just stop the bleeding

Changelog for the beta release:
2015-09-10: Nepster backroute fixes. Updates to levels using burners or both types of exploders. Moved levels around within and between ratings. Some other minor changes.
New: Daunting/repeatingpatterns.txt, Hopeless/parkinggarage.txt, Hopeless/lasranas.txt
Removed: Quirky/excavation.txt, Cunning/soaring.txt, Daunting/thebottomless.txt
2015-06-23: Backroute fixes: elixir, erbalunga, someliketorun, alieninvasion, backslash, buyonegetonefree1, buyonegetonefree2, cornerstone, littleminerpuzz3, narbaculardrop, ohnonotagain, themon0lith, trading, wereinthisonetog, bulldozer, lixesinarms, spingeometry, triangleineq
Time limit removed: changing, spingeometry
2015-04-25: Backroute fixes: Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite, Hotel in Hell, Waltz, Seven Pillars
2014-08-02: Backroute fixes: bipolar (Akseli), devilsrighthand (Nepster), loveisover (Akseli), themon0lith (Akseli), wereinthisonetog (Akseli), lixesinarms (Nepster).
Frogs added to: recyclingplant, acompletelyridiculous.
New, more interesting version of thepit.
2014-07-15: Swapped acompletelyridiculous and thepit, swapped theitalianjob/walktheplank and danceswithlixes, swapped Minimalism 1 and Minimalism 2. Some other minor rearrangements.
Backroute fixes: anotherfuneral (sekti), breackout (sekti), ittakestime (Akseli), alieninvasion (Akseli), overthehump (Nepster), tributetobennyhill (sekti), chasm (Akseli), gethype (Akseli), lixesinarms (Nepster), thecrimsonroom (Akseli).
Dividing Three by Two: 100% requirement.
Minor changes: Walk the Plank, Lix Cannon, Excavation, Lix Potion Number Nine.
2014-07-06: You Only Get One Bash at It updated to v2 (don't know why I still had the old version here). 'Hole in the head gang' treatment for Just Stop the Bleeding.
2014-07-05: Minimalism 1: SI set to 12. Alien Invasion: Backroute fix.
2014-07-04-03: Every Which Way: backroute fix. Can't Reach It: eased execution. Fear of Heights: backroute fix.
2014-07-04-02: Removed time limit from Variety Day.
2014-07-04-01: Fixed Roundabout.
2014-07-03: Implemented the changes suggested in this post, see this post.


List of recent changes (apart from ordering) from the alpha to the beta release:

Levels I took out (first wave):
Lixology
Play Ball!
Confusing Fractals
Leap Of The Locust
Wrong Way
A fearful Symmetry
A Soulful Bounding Leap!
Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo
It's All Uphill From Here
A Lix on the Edge!
Eye of the Needle
Heavenly skies
Lixes in Motion
Snake
The Giant Mushroom
Diggin' The Air

Levels I took out (second wave):
Paragliding to the Pyramid
Top Gear
Go Ahead and Help Yourself
The Road Not Taken
Castles in the Sky

Note: Some of these levels I will recommend or request to be included in Project Capybara.

Level changes:
A lot of levels in the Simple rating have skillset changes and maybe other miner changes. Please check for yourself if you have any objections.
The Ring of Fnargl: Skillset changed and hatch moved up for ease of execution.
Migration: No time-limit, no blocker/bomber, walker instead as discussed in IRC.
Escape the Pit: Skillset and terrain change.


Some style usage stats:
construction47
marble44
sandstone42
abstract36
bricks24
earth19
winter18
underworld17
proxima15
goldmine14
shadow11
tapir11
carnival11
beach3
oriental3
occult1
nopales1
forest0
Authors:
Insane Steve53
Michael51
geoo37
mobius26
Nortaneous12
I.S./Michael6
I.S./geoo4
Simon4
ccx3
minimac3
mobius/geoo3
mobius/Michael3
namida3
Nepster3
Rubix3
tseug3
Ben Bryant2
M. Zurlinden2
mobius/Nort.2
Pieuw/mobius2
Akseli1
Amanda1
BulletRide1
ccx/geoo1
finlay1
Isu1
M.Z./mobius1
Michael/geoo1
mobius/Clam1
mobius/I.S.1
mobius/Nepster1
namida/Michael1
Pieuw1
Prob Lem1
weirdybeardy1
Levels with time limits:
allover240
brutefours300
buridan70
changing60
cryforme180
deathorglory120
divisionoflabor210
dontlookback25
dreamtheimpossible120
exitstageright60
feelthepressure71
finale180
imgonnamakeyoumine180
leapoffaith180
lix309
lixsterquadrille120
metalcitymayhem240
nomoreheroes60
ohnonotagain150
panicattack180
pathofwickedness180
roundtrip240
segmentationfault150
spingeometry60
stuffintheway120
thehotelinhell120
thelastlaugh120
themon0lith140
ticktoxic70
timetochange59
tinkertailorsoldier190
toccata180
toofartowalk135
tributetobennyhill3600
<del>varietyday</del><del>300</del>
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:20:10 PM by geoo »

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 07:01:21 PM »
DOWNLOADED IT.

This is fabulous. Don't even know what to say, maybe I'll just go and play it! What a cheer-up for my day.

Offline RubiX

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 09:54:56 PM »
 :thumbsup: Good work geoo

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 09:58:06 PM »
Let's all go down the strand: I might be remembering wrong, but I thought I read somewhere (can't find it anymore) that you suggested removing the diggers?

Yes, and also, there are a few more suggested changes that haven't been implemented yet:

The Borderland -- require 30/60
Death or Glory -- fixed spawn interval of 50 to remove backroute. (The backroute does work on the Lemmix original, but the intended solution is very nice so I would rather enforce it. Lemmix doesn't allow fixed RR, of course, but the intended solution can be carried out without changing the RR.)
Watch Ye Step -- change all factory traps to squisher traps to remove backroute. (Mobius originally disagreed with this but later changed his mind and supported it.)
Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix -- should be attributed to "mobius", not "mobius / Michael". I did find an unintended solution, which mobius then decided to make the main solution, but I didn't do any editing on this level.
Path of Wickedness -- remove the small block just above the hatch to remove backroutes.

Quote
Finale: I used the latest version that you posted, in the corresponding post you say you can save 38, but the requirement is only 36. Is that intended? See: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=593.msg18902#msg18902 I might swap it with Empty Space or Chasm if the requirement stays at 36.

That's intended, and I don't think it's difficult enough for Hopeless regardless of the requirement.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 11:58:42 PM »
Thanks Proxima for these notes! I faintly remember these suggestions, but somehow I must have forgotten to note them down at the time. I made a quick update (same link) swapping 'Finale' with 'Empty Space' and implementing the other suggestions (except for the author names in 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix', you came up with that solution so I think you should get credit for it even if you didn't edit the level! It's the same with 'The Picard Maneuver' which basically features Steve's solution).

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 06:03:15 PM »
Finally got my computer to run the newest release of Lix, so I can actually make the changes I need to here.  8)
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Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 07:55:09 PM »
I know full well that this contributes absolutely nothing, but: Squee! I have a level in this pack! :thumbsup:

I've got some bits to get in order with regard to my sewing, tonight, but I'll be grabbing the pack later and getting stuck in. :)

Offline NaOH

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 09:39:21 PM »
From IRC an hour ago:

 I have my friend sekti play through the set as well, and he got stuck at Quirky 13 too. I therefore had another look at it and couldn't find a simple solutions, they are all kinda tricky (I remember it being way easier for some reason). So I think it should be moved at least to Cunning

I found Quirky 13, "A Completely Ridiculous Level," to have fairly diverse solutions, none of which were particularly obvious. My solution (attached) is completely different from Nepster's solution, for example. Finding a solution wasn't especially satisfying though; it felt to me like I'd hacked one together rather than arrived at a "eureka!" moment.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:05:22 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 12:21:13 AM »
This (NaOH's) solution from the post above to 'A completely ridiculous level' doesn't use any fancy tricks except for the jumper at least, unlike the other ones I found recently.

Anyway, somehow the old version of Roundabout (currently Quirky 16) that has a little gap and is thus probably unsolvable snuck in, I don't know how, but I fixed that in the latest version.

Offline namida

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2014, 12:59:31 AM »
I haven't played, but I know four of the levels are remakes of my LPDOS (or in one case, LPII) levels. I also noticed it mentioned somewhere that these levels have been given time limits.

I believe Labyrinth of Despair was somewhat modified, so if a time limit is used there as part of the challenge, that's fine. Panic Attack and Hellfire also use the time limit as secondary obstacles; not the main challenge of the level but they still add some sense of urgency to them. But in a game such as Lix that allows for levels without time limits, I think Variety Day is better off without one (you'll probably notice that the original (Lemmings) version gives over twice as long as is actually needed to complete the level).
My Lemmings projects
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2014, 01:09:00 AM »
Proxima changed Labyrinth of Despair into a 3-of-each level (for an appropriate set of skills) which makes it one of the hardest levels in the entire pack.

At this point Variety Day and Panic Attack had a time limit, but I just removed the time limit from Variety Day.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 03:41:18 PM »
The first impression is: This is harder right from the beginning than I expected! I hope that new players are really familiar with Lemmings and also that the upcoming Lix tutorials are going to be a thorough briefing for this game. Even the very first level most probably looks complex for a beginner with the huge landscape and the skillset. At the moment my view is that this levelset is targeted for experienced Lemmings/Lix players. For comparison, I remember RubiX's Epic Adventure to be an excellent set difficulty-wise for not that experienced players. I hope this comment won't discourage the authors if they aimed this pack to be playable for a wide audience, but at the moment it seems that even the Simple rating has Taxing-Mayhem difficulty levels. But I've been enjoying loads of this levelset definitely!

I've attached my solutions for levels from two first rankings. As always when recording solutions for a new levelset, I aim to solve the levels as naturally as possible, trying to avoid hacky/messy solutions. Replays tell easily more than words, but here's some notes:

Simple 10: Little Miner Puzzle (Part 1) - If my solution is correct, the first miner is hard to realize compared to the position of this level in this set.
20: The Borderland – This stood out for me! :thumbsup: Like I've mentioned before, aesthetics is important for me, and I found this level really rewarding to play, well done Proxima!
26: Think Fast! - Easy for its place.
33: Don't Leave Me Hanging! - BulletRide is listed as the (only) author, though the landscape and the skillset are different from the original Lemmix level, intentional?
38: Fear of Heights – Easy for its place, see replay. In Lemmix version some of the latest guys splatted, so the digger had to be placed at the right, so some of the first guys turned from the wall and the last guys managed to survive.

Quirky 6: 6 Gaps, 5 Builders – Tricky for its place. The rating name though describes this level well if my solution is correct. :P
10: Can't Reach it – Don't Need It - Miner assignment has to be accurate to avoid breaking the builder bridge, intentional?
13: A Completely Ridiculous Level - As discussed before, way too tricky for its place. My solution is pretty bizarre. :P
17: Decompression Method 1 – A nice level, resembles Lem ramp scam (ClamSpam03, level 9) imo. :P
18: Path to Mahimah: M. Zurlinden is listed as the (only) author, though the title and the skillset are different from the original MazuLems level, intentional?
19: 100 Ways to Die – A nice level, though easy for its place.
20: Little Miner Puzzle (Part 2) - This was relatively easy after part 1.
26: Another Lix in the Wall – The second level (after A Completely Ridiculous Level) to trick me at least for 10 minutes.
34: Follow the Yellow Brick Road – This was easier than Charge of the Lix Brigade imo.

Also I loved Minimalism-levels and Simon's levels, that guy said he can't design single player levels but those (Ferry Tale and Logging Your Progress) were flawless. More comments should come!

I'd be interested in seeing stats for author amounts also.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2014, 04:16:29 PM »
Cunning, Every Which Way but Loose: The attached solution must build pixel-perfectly inside the small steel pit.

Thanks for the accolade, Akseli. :-)

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2014, 06:25:04 PM »
20: The Borderland – This stood out for me! :thumbsup: Like I've mentioned before, aesthetics is important for me, and I found this level really rewarding to play, well done Proxima!

Thank you.  :'(  This level has a special place in my heart because of the story behind it, so I'm deeply touched that you liked it.

When I was a kid, one of my incessant hobbies was drawing levels for existing and invented computer games (though my invented ones were always closely inspired by real ones -- a flaw that pervades all my creative works). Naturally, that included Lemmings levels -- and years later, I rediscovered these and remade the best few in Cheapo. (It goes without saying that the vast majority were not worth preserving.) Three of them were even good enough to remake for this community set -- Lemming Caxton (now called The Two Towers), Somewhere Under the Rainbow (now called Changing of the Guards, not to be confused with Nortaneous' similarly titled level) and Behind Bars. A fourth, Too Close for Comfort, was rejected, but its terrain was used for Vignette.

I also drew a game series I called Suicide, inspired by Lemmings and another game whose name I've forgotten. The first game was pretty much the same as Lemmings but with a different set of skills, and only one critter to save. Later, I introduced "the Hordes", mindless critters who had to be saved, but you could still only give skills to your one "leader". I invented a world for the game to take place in, drew maps of "Horderland", and wrote an adventure gamebook  ;)

Much later -- towards the end of high school -- I drew the levels for the last game in this series. This was a much more thoughtful effort, with some good puzzles and attention to level aesthetics. I've still got the maps, even though there is no chance they will ever be turned into a playable game. The level The Borderland is simply a splicing together of the maps for the first difficulty rating (Pastel Port). The title is of course a pun on "Horderland", as well as the idea of two regions (the domains of the two hatches) meeting at a border.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2014, 07:16:29 PM »
I'd like to add that we discussed first levels for each set in the other topic, but I think you've also made excellent choices for the other "landmark" positions (20th, 21st, 39th and last).

There is an error in your list in the first post, geoo. Toccata's time limit is 180 (3:00), not 80. This is correct in the level itself.

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2014, 07:24:20 PM »
The first impression is: This is harder right from the beginning than I expected! I hope that new players are really familiar with Lemmings and also that the upcoming Lix tutorials are going to be a thorough briefing for this game.
I'm loving it so far, but I have to agree with this, also.

For example, I still haven't figured out Simple 12 ("Minimalism (Part 1)"), and I'm not sure if it's me or if something else is making it impossible. ;P If it is just me, I'd love a pointer, please, haha...

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2014, 07:47:52 PM »
Cunning, Every Which Way but Loose: The attached solution must build pixel-perfectly inside the small steel pit.

the replay doesn't work for some reason but I see what you did. It's a backroute. A major problem because of lack of arrows. I don't know how else to fix it I'd suggest just scrapping the level.

Akseli: Don't Leave Me Hanging! --the skillset should be exactly the same except miner instead of basher. The landscape has to be different because, they don't have the pillar tile set and no arrows :P
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline NaOH

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
The first impression is: This is harder right from the beginning than I expected! I hope that new players are really familiar with Lemmings and also that the upcoming Lix tutorials are going to be a thorough briefing for this game.
I'm loving it so far, but I have to agree with this, also.

For example, I still haven't figured out Simple 12 ("Minimalism (Part 1)"), and I'm not sure if it's me or if something else is making it impossible. ;P If it is just me, I'd love a pointer, please, haha...

This is why I left the Minimalism levels for Quirky in the draft ordering. The trick to this one is extremely out of the box and requires more than just skill assignments. (That hint should help a lot, Prob Lem) EDIT: Turns out there's a solution I didn't know about that's much simpler! My mistake.

So far, I think Simple 7 "Climb to Freedom", Simple 10 "Little Miner Puzzle (Part 1)," Simple 12 "Minimalism (Part 1)," and Simple 20 "Minimalism (Part 2)" are too hard for their placements. Climb to Freedom probably be in the second half of Simple, Little Miner Puzzle a little after the half-way mark, and consider moving both Minimalisms back to the start of Quirky. I still think Minimalism 1 is too hard for Simple, but Minimalism 2 seems good just before Lix Potion Number Nine now that it's been simplified. :)

Those are my major concerns. Some subtler ones: I wonder if Simple 17 "Solar Eclipse" and Simple 18 "Four Corners" should come before Simple 15 "Alternative Methods Recommended" and Simple 16 "Blocked by a Snowball," not after. Also, Simple 20 "The Borderland" could be pushed back to around Simple 13 "Four Color Circus."

Simples 21 "Snow Really" and 23 "Lix Potion Number Nine" are a little strange, and could maybe be moved down past Simples 25-27, which form a good chunk of simplish levels. (Although "Lix Potion Number Nine" shouldn't go next to Simple 28, "Charge of the Lix Brigade," as they are similarly about long lines of lixes. Maybe it could be moved earlier a level.) Simple 24, while hard, is a good "stumper" level, as there are only two skills -- it's not really that hard to figure out, but the solution isn't instantly obvious.

So my proposed reordering could be:

(Bold means I've pushed this level ahead from earlier, italics means I've pulled it in from later)

6. Every Lix for Herself!
7. Goblin City
8. Escape the Pit
9. Get Down from There!
10. Let's Block and Blow?
11. Four Color Circus
12. The Borderland
13. Put Your Lix on Ice
14. Solar Eclipse
15. Four Corners
16. Alternative Methods Recommended
17. Blocked by a Snowball

18. Let's All Go Down the Strand
19. Pitfall
[Needs a new landmark level...]
21. Minimalism (Part 2)
22. Think Fast!
23. Ferry Tale
24. Lix Potion Number Nine
25. Climb to Freedom!
26. Snow Really

27. Charge of the Lix Brigade
28. Little Viennese Waltz
29. Walk Them Golden Stairs
30. Low Clearance
31. Little Miner Puzzle (Part 1)
32. The Lion, The Lix, and the Wardrobe
33. Don't Leave Me Hanging!
34. One Way Road
35. Declination Innovation Station
36. You'll Get Over It
37. The Two Towers
38. Fear of Heights
39. You Have to Build a Bridge
40. The Road Goes Ever One

We're still missing a level, though. I maintain that Minimalism should be kept in Quirky due to the trick that it requires (Lix Potion Number Nine can also be solved with that trick, but there are many other ways to solve it, too) Perhaps we can pull in Quirky 4 "Waste Not, Want Not" or Quirky 11 "Migration" again?

Quote from: Akseli
26: Another Lix in the Wall – The second level (after A Completely Ridiculous Level) to trick me at least for 10 minutes.

I think this level, along with "Exit, Stage Right" are incredibly hard.
The only other major suggestion I have for Quirky is that "Path to Mahimah" is a rather dull level. Neat concept, but in practice it's not very fun to play. Oh, and, "The Final Sacrifice" I thought was very easy. It could be moved to somewhere near the middle or beginning of Quirky. Unless there's a reason it makes a good "landmark" last level.

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2014, 09:48:43 PM »
The first impression is: This is harder right from the beginning than I expected! I hope that new players are really familiar with Lemmings and also that the upcoming Lix tutorials are going to be a thorough briefing for this game.
I'm loving it so far, but I have to agree with this, also.

For example, I still haven't figured out Simple 12 ("Minimalism (Part 1)"), and I'm not sure if it's me or if something else is making it impossible. ;P If it is just me, I'd love a pointer, please, haha...

This is why I left the Minimalism levels for Quirky in the draft ordering. The trick to this one is extremely out of the box and requires more than just skill assignments. (That hint should help a lot, Prob Lem)
I really have no clue! :D I even tried to see if the level wraps around, since I'd noticed that feature in the level-editor when I was making my own levels, and it doesn't...

Offline NaOH

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2014, 09:53:23 PM »
The first impression is: This is harder right from the beginning than I expected! I hope that new players are really familiar with Lemmings and also that the upcoming Lix tutorials are going to be a thorough briefing for this game.
I'm loving it so far, but I have to agree with this, also.

For example, I still haven't figured out Simple 12 ("Minimalism (Part 1)"), and I'm not sure if it's me or if something else is making it impossible. ;P If it is just me, I'd love a pointer, please, haha...

This is why I left the Minimalism levels for Quirky in the draft ordering. The trick to this one is extremely out of the box and requires more than just skill assignments. (That hint should help a lot, Prob Lem)
I really have no clue! :D I even tried to see if the level wraps around, since I'd noticed that feature in the level-editor when I was making my own levels, and it doesn't...

Try raising the release rate all the way. That should help a lot :)

EDIT: nope, listen to geoo.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2014, 09:58:35 PM »
For example, I still haven't figured out Simple 12 ("Minimalism (Part 1)"), and I'm not sure if it's me or if something else is making it impossible. ;P If it is just me, I'd love a pointer, please, haha...
I think you know everything about the skills that you need to (walkers turn lix around or cancel workers including blockers; batters fling nearby lix around including blockers; and blockers, well, block like in L1). It's just a matter of piecing this together, in not quite the most obvious way. :) This level stumped my friend who's playtesting for a while too, but when he figured the solution he was like "Why didn't I see this earlier?". And one thing, you don't actually need to change the release rate.
Anyway, I wrote hints for this one already, spoilered below:
Quote
Hint 1: Don't make the first lix a blocker!
Hint 2: And don't use the walker to free the blocker, use it to turn a lix around instead!

Quote
Cunning, Every Which Way but Loose: The attached solution must build pixel-perfectly inside the small steel pit.
It's a backroute, can be eliminated by making the gap 12 px deep instead of 8.

Quote
Simple 10: Little Miner Puzzle (Part 1) - If my solution is correct, the first miner is hard to realize compared to the position of this level in this set.
Fear of Heights – Easy for its place, see replay. In Lemmix version some of the latest guys splatted, so the digger had to be placed at the right, so some of the first guys turned from the wall and the last guys managed to survive.
Can't Reach it – Don't Need It - Miner assignment has to be accurate to avoid breaking the builder bridge, intentional?
LMP1: Quite a few people seem to find this solution (you, Amanda, sekti), but there's one that's a lot more straightforward.
Fear of Heights: Changed the lix count to 60.
Can't Reach it: I've been thinking about this myself, it's also an issue with the digger depending on the solution. I moved the left steel block up by 2 pixels. Btw, it's actually possible to reach both exits, as Nepster found out.
'Don't Leave Me Hanging!' and 'Path to Mahimah': I don't know the original levels, so it's mobius' decision. If the levels stay true to their original solution idea, then I think it's ok as it is.

Added statistics for level authors to the first post.

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I'd like to add that we discussed first levels for each set in the other topic, but I think you've also made excellent choices for the other "landmark" positions (20th, 21st, 39th and last).

There is an error in your list in the first post, geoo. Toccata's time limit is 180 (3:00), not 80. This is correct in the level itself.
Thanks! I was quite deliberate about my picks for the last level and often the penultimate level (I was contemplating for a while about Finale going as Vicious 40 due to its appropriate name, and then moving Chasm up to Hopeless where it probably belongs difficulty-wise), though for 20 and 21 it was more of a case of seeing what ended up there and shuffling around a little if I thought something else should go there. I'm glad you like the outcome though, I'll keep that in mind when reordering the levels after getting all the new feedback here.

Thanks for pointing out this mistake. I'm surprised about it as I generated that list automatically, though I might have done some formatting manually when grep had messed with the linebreaks. I put that list mostly so it's easier to maybe scrutinize levels for whether they really need a time limit. :P

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2014, 10:25:24 PM »
Quote
Hint 1: Don't make the first lix a blocker!
Hint 2: And don't use the walker to free the blocker, use it to turn a lix around instead!
Ohhhh! I think I see now. Will give it another spin, later.

It's definitely not something I'd expect to see in the easiest rating, at any rate. ;P

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2014, 12:50:16 AM »
Replay for Rumble to the Bottom, this looks like a precision route and it spares one blocker skill. Proxima, is this intended?

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2014, 01:05:45 AM »
Yes, that's the intended solution.

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2014, 01:21:45 AM »
This level stumped my friend who's playtesting for a while too, but when he figured the solution he was like "Why didn't I see this earlier?".
Haha, just pulled it off. It's genius. :thumbsup:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2014, 02:36:03 AM »
I've played through the Simple set, and all I'd say at the moment is that "Snow Really" could stand to come a few places later. How about "Lix Potion" as a 21st level?  8)

Record number saved (100% unless stated):

Hrududu 29/30
Solar Eclipse 9/11
Minimalism (Part 2) 7/10
Let's Block and Blow? 29/30
Pitfall 39/40
You'll Get Over It 8/10

Levels where 100% is a notable challenge:

Goblin City
Lix Potion Number Nine
Low Clearance
The Lion, Lix and the Wardrobe

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2014, 02:14:46 PM »
Attached are the solutions for the first three ratings from my friend sekti, and backroutes to Tribute to Benny Hill.
I also have them in alphabetical order (i.e. level filenames) if you prefer.

If you're too lazy to save replays for each level, you can go to options and set 'Max auto replays' to some big number, and copy them every now and then. With grep and sed I can still change them to alphabetical later.

I've played through the Simple set, and all I'd say at the moment is that "Snow Really" could stand to come a few places later. How about "Lix Potion" as a 21st level?  8)
I think I agree on both here :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2014, 11:44:07 PM »
Snowball Battle: Proxima, you talked about an easy solution that could be eliminated by removing the walker, but I've left the walker in for now. What is that solution?

Attached.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2014, 12:07:17 AM »
Here's the revised "glitched out" version of Just Stop the Bleeding. Good to finally get this up and running.  :thumbsup:
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Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2014, 02:36:50 PM »
I decided to give my solutions for Cunning and Daunting ratings now, I haven't solved two Daunting levels but it's already been a few days I played all the others, so I think I'm not going to postpone these anymore. :P I'm in Vicious 6 at the moment, skipping only those two Daunting levels so far.

I'm playing Lix version 2014-07-02 and Lix levelset version 2014-07-03.

Cunning:
2: Merge Sort: Tricky for its place.
5: Lix Cannon: Did the physics change make this level easier (see basher doing the full stroke against steel)?
12: Elixir: Tricky for its place, if my solution is correct.
30: Have Another Try – One of the best levels so far! :thumbsup:
36: Dances With Lixes: Tricky for its place, if my solution is correct.

Daunting:
11: The Lix Who Japed – Not yet solved.
13: Little Miner Puzzle (Part3) – Knowing geoo, there's multiple solutions for this level, my solution is far too difficult for being an early Daunting level.
17: The Italian Job - Too easy compared to the levels around it, see replay.
30: Buy One, Get One Free (Part2) – Not yet solved.
31: I'm Gonna Make You Mine – Too hard for its position if my solution is correct, there's not much leeway how many you can kill.

Vicious 1: Dividing Three by Two – This level is easier than the first level of Daunting (Rhapsody--), and even easier than the first level of Cunning (LIX).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2014, 03:17:39 PM »
Suggested improvements to Lix Potion Number Nine and Lix Cannon.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2014, 05:00:44 PM »
Land of Rainbows and Unicorns; the intended solution is simple yet for some reason I and apparently NaOH did not see it. Why is that? The intended is not annoying at all while that other one is. Either way I like this level.

geoo's solution to Feel the Pressure was the same as mine. At some point Akseli didn't have steel on the top and that solution wouldn't have worked..

Even though Italian Job was not backrouted, I polished it up a bit (see attachment) and changed title to something much more fitting. [I discovered a way to remove the old backroute other than increasing the number of lix in the level but I didn't change this anyway]

Akseli's replay for Elixer didn't work for me, but what I saw looked like it was not intended, in any case, I'd agree it's too difficult for it's position, I haven't solved it yet myself.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2014, 05:28:06 PM »
Here's another alternative version of Lix Cannon, which doesn't require the jumper. Up to you which you want to use.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2014, 06:47:51 PM »
I just crossed the landmark of 200 solved levels in Lix community levelset (40-40-40-38-36-6 by ratings), so here's my Vicious solutions! Levels I didn't solve yet:
15: Laser Deathroom (Part 3), 30: 100% Built by Lixes, 34: Spin Geometry, 35: Bashing & Building

I noticed how levels get somewhat more backroute-prone further in the pack, I guess that there has been fewer playtesters for the hardest levels? My solution for 40: 'Chasm' is a clear example.

Other notes:
8: Slipping – A way too easy, I suspect backrouting this.
9: Slipping Again – A way too easy, I suspect backrouting this.
11: Round Trip – Really easy for its place, I remember wondering this also in Steve's cheapo pack, where this level was really late in the game. Every skill placement is visible.
17: Lixster Quadrille – Easy for its place.
26: Down Among the Dead Lix – Levels around this seemed much harder.
32: Halfway Down the Stairs – Too easy for its place, there's so many skills, my solution used only half of them.
38: Triangle Inequality -  A beautiful idea! Though the solution needs a bit extra fiddling after realizing the main idea.

I think the hardest Vicious levels (that I've solved) were: 36: Survival of the Craftiest, 29: Brute Fours, 28: A Matter of Perspective, 10: Wait Why is There a Tree (turning around caused me troubles in this one)

I'm enjoying the levels a lot in this phase of the game where I'm going now! :thumbsup:

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2014, 11:05:24 PM »
Fixing backroutes and level orderings has priority.

A minor issue is the pack's name: The current lixlfpack is redundant. As a subdir of levels/single/, it's obvious that it is for Lix, and that it is pack.

I propose lemforum for the directory name, and this pack description after clicking on it.

-- Simon

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2014, 02:01:01 AM »
Ok, so I haven't managed to implement all backroute fixes for Cunning and Daunting yet, so I'll leave that and commenting on these for later, but I'll comment a bit on Vicious right now (backroute fixes will have to come later).

First off, harder levels tend to have more backroutes in general. There are more viable options to try (that's why they are so hard!), and thus also to consider when looking for backroutes.

Dividing Three by Two: I've played this level a few times in the recent past, and I agree, there are a whole lot of solutions that work, and finding one of them isn't that hard. So I'm contemplating what to do about this. One idea is upping the requirement to 100% (and maybe even removing the blockers in addition) to make it harder. The other options is swapping it with Rhapsody--, but then that one might be a little to easy for its position. If none of this works, I'd have to find a new level for Vicious 1 and move this one down to somewhere in early Daunting or even Cunning.
Slipping and Slipping Again: Honestly, I don't even know what the intended solutions to these are. I have a suspicion for Slipping, but in Slipping Again pretty much anything goes. I considered these as somewhat open-ended levels. Don't know what to do here, I could also swap out Slipping Again for some other level like Top Gear or Lixes in Motion, both excellent levels that could serve as replacement. At least Slipping I didn't find that easy personally.
Triangle Inequality: You're still using the main idea, but you execute it more beautifully than the way I intended. I might just change it to enforce your variation. (My solution builds in the other direction, but the bridge ends up in basically the same position.)
Bulldozer: I might call it a shortcut, it's a variation at least, but either way there's nothing I can really do about this. I might widen the holding pit at the right maybe.
Chasm: That's a pretty bad backroute exploiting the cuber behaviour, but it's easily fixable fortunately.
Get Hype: Considering I've eliminated similar solution that were pretty close to the intended one, I'll probably do the same to yours.
The Last Laugh: This is a pretty nifty variation of the solution I know, I'm almost wondering whether I should enforce this instead.
Bashing and Building: It's funny that you find this one hard just like me when I first played it, when the solution end up being so simple (that's really the only reason I didn't move it to Hopeless).
Round Trip: Yeah, the reason it's where it is is probably because it comes pretty late in Steve's Cheapo pack (but there A Towering Proposition is in Hopeless too iirc, while here it ended up in Cunning). I guess I should move it.
Halfway Down the Stairs: It has a variety of solutions, but still none of them are that easy to find. Maybe it could go a little earlier. I also like to avoid the well-timed climber bomb myself to get up one level and use something that feels more legit in its stead. :P
I agree with you about the levels that you find hardest, and I'm glad that most of them do in fact appear in the latter half of Vicious. I should move Wait Why is There a Tree a bit later probably as it's a bit technical.  A Matter of Perspective is one I personally didn't find that hard, but I put it where it is as it's about seeing that main trick.

Thanks again for your feedback, I appreciate it a lot!

Re: Simon's suggestion from the previous post, I agree with that and support these changes for the official version to be included in the lix release in the future.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2014, 02:57:59 AM »
Fix for The Crimson Room attached.

I'm fine with Dividing Three By Two requiring 100% rather than it being an optional challenge -- I guess if Lix is ever distributed beyond our community, many players wouldn't think of looking at the hints for challenge suggestions, or wouldn't bother to try them out.

For Halfway Down the Stairs, the climb/bomb was part of the originally intended solution, but the jump/bomb certainly was not. We should remove either the jumper or the fling-bomber -- neither is essential for my solution. Nepster's ingenious 49/50 solution uses the jumper, and I can't remember what skills the no-miner challenge uses.

Bulldozer -- please leave it, anything that makes this level less annoying is a blessing.

The directory name needs to be something less bland, something that shouts out "this is the main level pack that newcomers should play first (after the tutorial)". No suggestions right now, I'll try to come up with something.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2014, 05:59:05 PM »
might I suggest replacing my/Nort slipping remakes with a level much closer to the actual thing? I don't remember exactly why I didn't remake it exactly before [no, I do, I couldn't for some reason but now I can. It wasn't even hard].
I like this level a lot for it's simplicity yet difficulty, and I don't find anything glitchy about it or even very reliant on extreme precision. There are two solutions I know of--one uses the blocker the other doesn't. I wasn't able to solve with the blocker solution but I only tried twice. I see no purpose for the one way walls that are present in the original.
I also like the sparse layout of the level.

I feel like I am forgetting something though... like maybe  a backroute comes about from making the platforms a little thicker (this is necessary in Lix I believe)

I also doubt a time limit's necessary, but Idk that either. I also included one of the replays.

EDIT: I find the replay to Last Laugh fine/no backroutes
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2014, 12:08:30 AM »
Ok, I uploaded a new version with a bunch of backroute fixes, see change log in the first post. I repositioned some levels too. Note the list of changes still to be done in the first post too. If something hasn't been done yet and is not on the list either but you think it should, feel free to point it out to me so I won't forget.

For the Simple ordering I implemented most things we discussed. The only two things I disagree with in NaOH's list are LMP1, Climb to Freedom and Minimalism 2 (formerly Min 1) which I think come too late there. I kinda want to keep The Borderland at position 20 as it stands out visually. I don't think e.g. Alternative Methods Recommended is harder than it.

Comments on Akseli's Cunning/Dauting reviews:
Merge Sort: I think I've written it before, but for some people it's very easy, for some very hard. :P
Elixir: That's quite an impressive stunt, but you definitely don't need it. I'm contemplating whether to eliminate that, the intended solution uses quite an elegant trick.
Have Another Try: Thanks, so I'm wondering what makes this level so special to you. When I made it I felt it was just another puzzle level, at least I touched it up a little to make it look prettier, at the beginning it was really just a wall of bricks.
Dances With Lixes: You don't need that trick to solve the level, either way I moved it up to Daunting.
The Lix Who Japed: Moved to the end of Daunting. I wrote an additional hint for this one pointing out something useful to get the player started. Hints will be added to all levels once Steve and I write some more.
Little Miner Puzzle (Part3): Yeah, your solution is definitely not intended. It's for most part the same as mine, but you don't have to use the mutual miner cancelling, it works without it. I don't think I can fix that though.
The Italian Job: Moved to earlier rating.
I'm Gonna Make You Mine: It's quite spammy, though iirc you can at least avoid the precise builder placement with a different trick. I don't think it's underrated difficulty-wise though.
It takes time to build: I quite like your solution, it's very clean. I went ahead and enforced mobius' intended solution though, and accordingly move the level a bit later too.
Alien Invasion: That's another bad backroute, hopefully fixed in the new version.
Derailed Level: That's quite an interesting twist on the intended main idea you have here, I love it!
The Bottomless Closet: That's quite an interesting solution, uses all the skills too. A bit more technical than mine though, I wonder whether I should try to eliminate it, e.g. moving the hatch a little further to the right.
The Ring of Fnargl: I don't like how you used the excess skills I gave to ease execution to set up your pathway to the exit, while still using the timed climber bomb that these extra skills were supposed to make unnecessary. But either way the solutions to that level aren't that exciting.
Triangle Inequality: Attached my solution so you can see the little difference. Wondering whether to modify the level to enforce your solution idea, it feels a bit prettier with the miner and builder aligned.

More general comments:
Dividing Three By Two: I set the requirement to 100% now. If that's still too easy, an option would be requiring one miner or digger at the very right so it's not available for the main part anymore. I find the 100% that saves a digger (or miner) pretty elegant, have a look and try to find it!
Bulldozer: You know, there's a smart way to do this level. It can be done comfortably without even pausing that way (see attached). It's a pity that I can't enforce that way of executing the solution it, so most people will probably just brute-force their way through it with pausing and savestates and find it annoying.
Halfway Down the Stairs: Attached is an archive with 7 different solutions. Maybe that will help you decide which skills to cut. :P


For Round Trip and potentially Slipping, if I move those down to Daunting, which levels do you think would be most fit to replace them in Vicious?
And to everyone, what do you think of changing Slipping Again to tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted above? In hindsight I don't find it that exciting a level and a bit technical, so alternatively I'm thinking of replacing it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion (see outtakes folder) too.


Btw, I had a glance at the time limit list, and there are a few levels where I don't quite see the purpose of the time limits (I haven't thought deeply about it though, e.g. I might be missing how they eliminate backroutes), care to enlighten me? Otherwise I'd be inclined to remove the time limits from these levels: allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), divisionoflabor (210), finale (180), imgonnamakeyoumine (180), leapoffaith (180), metalcitymayhem (240), pathofwickedness (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120), tinkertailorsoldier (190), toccata (180).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2014, 01:04:40 AM »
I kinda want to keep The Borderland at position 20 as it stands out visually.
I'm touched  :)

Quote
Halfway Down the Stairs: Attached is an archive with 7 different solutions. Maybe that will help you decide which skills to cut. :P
I also looked back at my original replay for the no-miner challenge. It turns out to use both bombers but not the jumper. I think the best thing is just to leave it. Taking into account the precision required for the jump-bomber, it's not really any easier than other solutions.

Quote
And to everyone, what do you think of changing Slipping Again to tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted above? In hindsight I don't find it that exciting a level and a bit technical, so alternatively I'm thinking of replacing it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion (see outtakes folder) too.
I'd be very happy to see Lixes in Motion re-included in the set, but I'd also like to have another look at both Slippings to see if I can come up with a fix... when I have time.

Quote
Btw, I had a glance at the time limit list, and there are a few levels where I don't quite see the purpose of the time limits (I haven't thought deeply about it though, e.g. I might be missing how they eliminate backroutes), care to enlighten me? Otherwise I'd be inclined to remove the time limits from these levels: allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), divisionoflabor (210), finale (180), imgonnamakeyoumine (180), leapoffaith (180), metalcitymayhem (240), pathofwickedness (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120), tinkertailorsoldier (190), toccata (180).
Brute Fours, Cry for me, Death or Glory and Round Trip are remakes that have time limits because the original levels did, and in the case of Cry for me and Death or Glory, the original authors aren't around to ask whether they're okay with removing the time limits. It's up to you what you want to do with them.

Finale, I'm Gonna Make You Mine, Metal City Mayhem, Path of Wickedness and Toccata have time limits as part of the challenge. I know you don't like this, but I do (in moderation) and they are my levels.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2014, 01:54:18 AM »
I wonder if Lix should soft-end time-limited singleplayer levels, rather than hard-ending them with a nuke like it is now.  That is, no auto-nuking and give the option for the player to continue playing even after time's up, with the obvious effect that the resulting solution will fail regardless of number saved.

That of course does nothing with the objection on having to repeat execution to coax an otherwise working and not-so-different solution into the time limit, but does at least address the objection about time limits interfering with player's process of solving the level.  I haven't played any of the mentioned levels yet to say anything about the "repeat execution" objection one way or the other with respect to those specific levels.  Though I have to say even with non time-limited levels, I don't think it's all that uncommon to come up with some solutions that seem to work only to actually not quite work out toward the end, so in that perspective, one can say a repeated-execution from time limit isn't perhaps all that more annoying, as long as the time limit is not too insanely tight.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2014, 04:51:29 AM »
Soft time limits: Very good idea.

That makes testing of multiplayer levels much easier. Authors will not forget setting overtime to something small after testing.

Triggering the nuke at exactly 5 seconds left makes for a longer time limit than the soft limit. Late-spawned lixes have extra time before they become exploders. Some existing levels must therefore be revised to fit the shorter time limit.

-- Simon

Offline RubiX

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2014, 02:32:17 PM »
Yea thats a nice idea.   For testing multiplayer maps its surely a useful feature, as we all need to up that timer when we test stuff, and often forget to revert it after testing.

For singleplayer it'll be great. 
For those others who played 'PUSHOVER' the timer would turn red once hitting the limit, but allow you to keep playing, and that was awesome for testing purposes etc 
(though failing the timer in that game allowed you to still pass the map if you had tokens saved and were ok with paying the token penalty for being slow)

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2014, 06:43:24 PM »
Halfway Down the Stairs: On of my solutions also uses a faller-bomb instead of a jumper bomb, and a climber bomb on one of the other steps. You need to use the batter to get the lix up there instead.

Slipping: seems like a level with not too many different solutions some of which could probably be eliminated. Slipping Again, I feel, is 'anything goes' on the other hand. It's not that bad, but at least doesn't belong in Vicious as it is. If you think you can improve it, I'm welcome for suggestions. Feedback on tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted is welcome too. If nothing changes though I'll probably replace it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion. I could also try to get both of these in by replacing e.g. The Pit which is kinda straightforward and strange. I remembered it being more interesting, but I can't get the solution I thought to be intended to work anymore. I attached a version of The Pit that should enforce what I thought to be intended, and also makes the last builder placement less awkward. If I do that, other replacement candidates (if I want to get both levels back in) could be Three Days of the Condor (I kept it as a sort of tutorial level, but I forgot that Hellfire uses that trick too), or A Completely Ridiculous level (technical).

I also attached my solution to Bulldozer to my previous post which I forgot when I initially posted it.

Brute Fours, Cry for me, Death or Glory and Round Trip are remakes that have time limits because the original levels did, and in the case of Cry for me and Death or Glory, the original authors aren't around to ask whether they're okay with removing the time limits. It's up to you what you want to do with them.

Finale, I'm Gonna Make You Mine, Metal City Mayhem, Path of Wickedness and Toccata have time limits as part of the challenge. I know you don't like this, but I do (in moderation) and they are my levels.
Hmm if you consider potentially redoing a solution with tighter timing a challenge, then yes (admittedly, in the recent past, I only remember running into this in Path of Wickedness). Sounds more like nostalgia to me, but ok.
In Pushover the time limit issue was a lot more serious, because you couldn't pause the level to think about the solution (when paused the screen would be obscured). So after having figured a solution you'd always have to restart the level before executing it, which is especially annoying if you already had part of the solution executed and wanted to take a break to think about what to do next. In comparison to that, in Lemmings the time limit is almost a non-issue.
Ok so, for those levels that were ported, I'd assume in general that they just had time limits because you had to set one (not safe to assume but rather likely), so on the list of time limits to be removed for now would be allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), leapoffaith (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120). For divisionoflabor (210) and tinkertailorsoldier (190) they might serve backroute prevention purposes, I'm not sure but at least they are chosen less arbitrarily. It's also a consistency thing, the norm should be no time limit as right now there's no explicit warning that a level has a time limit (you have to notice the timer is going down instead of up), so most of the time you just notice because suddenly your lix explode, which is kinda frustrating.

Re: multiplayer testing on a time limit, I still think a flag indicating that a level is multiplayer would be better for that anyway, in which case the time limit should be ignored (or if you want to implement a more sophisticated way of testing with different tribes, only once you nuke for one).

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2014, 06:50:51 PM »
It's also a consistency thing, the norm should be no time limit as right now there's no explicit warning that a level has a time limit (you have to notice the timer is going down instead of up), so most of the time you just notice because suddenly your lix explode, which is kinda frustrating.


This is a problem that should be addressed by making some kind of indication in the level or on the menu screen. Btw, I don't think the majority of players, at least players that are used to playing Lemmings are going to experience this frustration because they are used to time limits. Anyway, I still think it's a good idea to have something more noticeable indicating there is a time limit.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2014, 07:25:38 PM »
Attached some solutions to levels which had backroute fixes, though I guess all of them are rather close to the intended solutions.

Slipping: möbius' new version of Slipping (i.e. the tseug remake) is quite a bit easier than the original Lemmix level, cf. attached solution. Imo Top Gear and Lixes in Motion are more interesting puzzles than the current Slipping Again and Three Days.

Tinker Tailor Soldier: You mention in the first post that you consider fixing the RR at 50 (to remove a backroute?). Then you should either relax (or remove) the time limit or reduce the number of lixes. As it is, there is not enough time for the very last lix to appear and walk unhindered to the exit (at least with my solution). I am not aware of any solution that the corrent time limit removes, but that doesn't mean anything.

Division of Labor: I remember that on my first few tries, I took about 10-30 seconds to long. So the time limit here definitely removes some solutions.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2014, 09:30:59 PM »
Hmm if you consider potentially redoing a solution with tighter timing a challenge, then yes
No, I consider that in timed levels, the challenge is to find a solution that saves the required number of lix within the time limit. Often this means you have taken the wrong approach and need to find a better strategy, which can be an interesting challenge. It does sometimes mean you get the correct method and then merely have to tighten it to pass the level, but that is equally possible with untimed levels with the number of skills used or their placement -- indeed, it happens all the time and is an essential part of the solving process.

I thought the point of Slipping Again was to enforce my solution to the first draft of Slipping, so I'm not sure how and when that was changed. I can't remember exactly what that solution was  :P  though of course all this is on record in the large topic.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2014, 10:21:03 PM »
This is a problem that should be addressed by making some kind of indication in the level or on the menu screen. Btw, I don't think the majority of players, at least players that are used to playing Lemmings are going to experience this frustration because they are used to time limits. Anyway, I still think it's a good idea to have something more noticeable indicating there is a time limit.

As an initial suggestion, maybe some kind of timer icon indicator on the menu screen, and/or flashing the time for the first N game seconds for timed levels.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2014, 10:29:05 PM »
Speaking of consistency, it seems super-weird to have NaOH's level feature a non-standard skill not accessible in the level editor, and only appears once in the entire set with no prior explanations whatsoever.  Not that I have any problems with it personally, and actually under any other circumstances I would probably applaud without hesitation.  But in context of community set it does kinda scream "consistency? what's that?".

...so, any chance we can actually make these kinds of skills accessible in the level editor GUI as well? ;P Maybe an "extra skills" button bring up a second window letting user choose all the weird "skills" the game unofficially supports.  Forcing user to hand-edit the level text file seems somewhat elitist.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2014, 10:44:40 PM »
Nepster: Lixes in Arms is a backroute. Shouldn't be too hard to fix though.
For Tinker, mobius said there might be backroutes if the SI isn't fixed in IRC, but later said it's ok with the SI set between 30 and 50. I'll leave the time limits for Tinker and Division of Labor to prevent possible backroutes.

No, I consider that in timed levels, the challenge is to find a solution that saves the required number of lix within the time limit. Often this means you have taken the wrong approach and need to find a better strategy, which can be an interesting challenge. [...]
Hmm, for that to actually happen I think the time limits on the above mentioned levels are a bit lax though. I don't remember coming up with a solution to any of these levels that didn't work after tightening the timing.

Quote
As an initial suggestion, maybe some kind of timer icon indicator on the menu screen, and/or flashing the time for the first N game seconds for timed levels.
Yeah, I think the timer flashing in red at the beginning is a good suggestion which, I believe, is already on the wishlist.

I thought the point of Slipping Again was to enforce my solution to the first draft of Slipping, so I'm not sure how and when that was changed. I can't remember exactly what that solution was  :P  though of course all this is on record in the large topic.
I didn't even remember there was a specifically intended solution for this one. Feel free trying to enforce it. :P

ccx: NaOH's level is also the only one to feature the occult set, so you could consider it a special graphics with special feature level. Those special skills aren't really that useful, they sure are not on the same level as the main 15 skills. I mean you can always come up with obscure uses (e.g. the shrugger as a walker that only works for cancelling skills but not turning around, or the burner use here), but they are rather limited. I mean it wouldn't hurt to have a second panel with these weird skills, though it'd also encourage their use, and most of them don't even have a panel symbol, so it's really just more of an easter egg.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2014, 01:04:23 AM »
I've sort of remembered the backroutes to Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix [actually this was almost the original solution until Proxima found the harder one];
-If you let RR as is and but have no time limit; you can wait until the a lemming near the end comes out, and have him build to the top.
-then the last one digs and mines to stall until the builder is finished.
Then on top both will mine, the one turning around to free the others.

-If you put in a time limit but have the RR adjustable you can do the same thing essentially; saving time by upping the RR.

However; it sounds like the time could be relaxed a little [add more] it doesn't have to be as tight as Nepster is saying it is.

--------
If Tseug's Slipping doesn't get used I might put it in project Cappybara.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2014, 07:04:23 PM »
Thanks for explaining the possible backroute in Tinker.
However; it sounds like the time could be relaxed a little [add more] it doesn't have to be as tight as Nepster is saying it is.
I don't think you have to change the time limit if you leave the SI at 30-50 (of fix it e.g. at 40). My previous comment is only relevant if you still wish to fix the SI at 50 - otherwise please ignore it.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 07:54:14 PM »
Seems like it has been rather quiet on IRC the past few days with respect to the community set, compared to a week ago.  Have people stopped playing it or just getting stuck on some of the levels?  (Or maybe even finished them all?)

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2014, 10:17:14 PM »
Aaaand my Hopeless solutions! I decided to post them after solving 30 levels out of 40. :)

1: Recycling Plant – One of my favourites, a shining crowd control level that also has an overly underused graphics style. :)
2: The Hotel in Hell - Hardish for its place.
8: Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite – Overtiered.
16: Heed the Traffic Light – Far too easy for its place.
20: Metal City Mayhem – One of my favourites, a lovely compilation of some of my favourite original Lemmings levels. :)
28: Devil's Right Hand – Overtiered.
30: Rhapsody in Blue – There was two tricks that had to be realized, otherwise could still be a bit too easy for its place.
35: The Mon0lith – Overtiered multiple ratings.

Have Another Try: Thanks, so I'm wondering what makes this level so special to you. When I made it I felt it was just another puzzle level, at least I touched it up a little to make it look prettier, at the beginning it was really just a wall of bricks.
The puzzle itself is one of the cleanest ones, there's no extra fiddling in it, only clear, easily performed movements. Climber re-use and the fact that it's one of your more decorated levels are also pluses. :P Best levels are those that give glee after solving them or during playthrough, no matter how difficult is the level.

Quote
For Round Trip and potentially Slipping, if I move those down to Daunting, which levels do you think would be most fit to replace them in Vicious?
I looked again at Daunting levels and I feel that there actually isn't that big difference compared to Vicious levels in terms of difficulty. :I Here was the trickiest Daunting levels for me, but there's surely other levels as well. In my opinion though even Daunting is too much for Round Trip, I mean, the only things that make this level non-trivial are:
Quote
The digger placement and climber-bombing through walls.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2014, 10:46:26 PM »
Comments on solutions to my levels:

Ascending and Descending: Impressive, another completely distinct but valid solution  :thumbsup:
Labyrinth of Despair: Another beautiful solution and you even saved 100%!
Metal City Mayhem: Again very beautiful and completely different from my solution!
Path of Wickedness: Give me a few moments to lift my jaw off the floor. You managed to reach the other exit. And it's not a backroute, it's just an accidental feature that makes the level even better now you've discovered it.
Rhapsody in Blue: Slightly off the intended solution, but I'm okay with that as the price paid for non-time-limiting the level.
The Hotel in Hell: Another completely different solution that I like very much -- you're on a roll!
You Only Get One Bash at It: Yet another "colour me amazed that you managed to pull off something like that" one. Perhaps surprisingly (given the level's position), the intended solution is not nearly so convoluted.
Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite: This is a backroute, of course. Give me time to fix it before talking about moving it down a rating, mmmkay?

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2014, 05:04:47 PM »
Heed the Traffic Light: I wondered as well about its placement in mid-Hopeless, but it seems geoo had more problems solving it than you had or I expected there to be.

Devil's Right Hand: I still like this solution. Nevertheless there is a one-way-gadget which is even marked as such with a red arrow and your solution passes it in the wrong direction. I am not sure, whether we want such a "feature" in the community level pack, as other players may think we deliberately mislead them and thus feel cheated. Depending on how everyone else feels about this issue, I have two new versions for you:
V3: Removes only a backroute I found yesterday myself (by abusing the metal placement in the construction of the one-way-gadgets). Akseli's solution remains.
V4: Removes both my backroute and Akseli's solution (and unfortunately afaik geoo's as well).

EDIT: The previous versions did not completely remove my backroute. Please download V3 and/or V4 again (if should be called "New" at the end).

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2014, 07:40:13 PM »
And here are my capy/Outtakes solutions. :)

My favourites of the levels I didn't know earlier:
A Soulful Bounding Leap - A tricky one, I wonder if I solved this correctly, is this too bizarre for the community pack?
Leap of the Locust - Though a bit simple and bare-looking.
Play Ball! - This was the hardest Outtakes level for me, I wonder if I solved it correctly, I used my trick here... :P
Top Gear - Though I agree that this resembles another level that's already in the set, so it's understandable to not include it.

I don't like at all repeat levels that don't have totally different solutions. If at first comes an X-of-everything level and then the same terrain is repeated later in the level set, it bugs me insanely. That usually means that the solution in the harder level works in the easier level, too. Repeat levels are okay only if they really can't be solved in the same way. They are more bearable if the first versions are tutorial levels or other really easy levels, but I don't like that either. Outtakes had lots of easier versions of the levels that were in the late ratings of the level set, I'm fine with that they're not included. Currently Lix set has at least Simple 1 and Simple 3 as levels that are repeated later, but I think I can cope with those few.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2014, 09:46:16 AM »
More solutions for Bipolar Maniac and The Mon0lith.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2014, 10:55:01 PM »
I'm glad you loved Recycling Plant, I consider it the best level I made, and I also put a lot of effort into its design.

As for the outtakes.
A Soulful Bounding Leap is a good level IMO, and you found a very interesting solution to it. There's a variety of solution overall.
Play Ball!: Yes, your solution is intended, mobius' original version of the level required to save less until I found the 100% solution which is the same as yours pretty much.
Top Gear: I plan to put two levels from the outtakes back in, and right now Top Gear and Lixes in Motion are my favourites for that. But other opinions are welcome. A Soulful Bounding Leap and Play Ball are interesting levels too, and unlike the other two candidates don't resemble existing levels too closely.

Some backroute fixes, download new version of the pack for them:

Bipolar Maniac: removed both of Akseli's backroutes.
Devil's Right Hand: I used Nepster's version v4New, I managed to execute my solution in this version, even though timing gets a lot trickier there.
Love is Over: Removed the basher to eliminate Akseli's backroute. Steve's original solution uses the basher, but there are variations that don't need it.
The Mon0lith: I realized I have more leeway with the time limit than I thought, so I made the mon0lith bigger without increasing the time limit too much to hopefully eliminate Akseli's routes.
We're in this one together: Made poles thicker so you can't bomb through them.
Lixes in arms: removed Nepster's backroute.

Furthermore I changed 'The Pit' to feature the more interesting solution and make the builder placement easier.

Other levels you (Akseli) might want to retry due to changes from mid-July:
ittakestime, alieninvasion, chasm, gethype, thecrimsonroom. (Nepster already tried the levels that address his backroutes again.)

More changes to come later (see first post for a current list).

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2014, 09:04:52 PM »
Here are my solutions for updated levels It Takes Time to Build, Dividing Three By Two, The Crimson Room, Get Hype, Bipolar Maniac and We're In This One Together.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2014, 10:56:20 PM »
A new solution for Lixes in Arms, which is more or less a simplified version of my previous one...

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2014, 10:56:01 AM »
Solutions for Chasm v2 and Bipolar Maniac v3.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 06:43:37 AM »
Just now got around to watching those. Both completely intended, incredible job!  :thumbsup:
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2014, 04:40:33 PM »
After feedback from Ramon in chat, fixed versions of Seven Pillars and Gomen ne. Also edited Goblin City to match terrain of Gomen ne.

Considering comment about Charge of the Lix Brigade being tricky for its position, I suggest lowering save requirement to 300/600.

Still need to fix Yuki, Muon, but that will take a lot of care so I'm putting it off for now.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2014, 01:08:28 PM »
Btw, I had a glance at the time limit list, and there are a few levels where I don't quite see the purpose of the time limits (I haven't thought deeply about it though, e.g. I might be missing how they eliminate backroutes), care to enlighten me? Otherwise I'd be inclined to remove the time limits from these levels: allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), divisionoflabor (210), finale (180), imgonnamakeyoumine (180), leapoffaith (180), metalcitymayhem (240), pathofwickedness (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120), tinkertailorsoldier (190), toccata (180).

Kind of surprised you didn't mention Changing of the Guards. Please remove the time limit, unless you know of a reason why it's necessary.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2014, 04:35:05 PM »
I've had a look through the various versions of Slipping / Slipping Again.

I would agree that the levels could be moved earlier, and I also think they should be further apart, so perhaps Slipping in Cunning and Slipping Again in Daunting?

I don't think anything needs fixing -- everyone's replays for Slipping Again are all variants of the same solution. This was not meant to be an "anything goes" level, but any solution that finds the core ideas is okay. The level could be tightened by removing two (or even three) builders and a basher, if desired (or one or two builders and both bashers) -- though keeping the extra skills makes execution easier.

I really don't want the levels to be swapped out -- they are good puzzles, the idea for Slipping Again is not easy to find (and thus rewarding when you do find it) -- Ramon's comment in chat when he solved this puzzle was "Very nice :)". I just don't think they necessarily belong in Vicious, and perhaps they would have been more favourably received if they'd been placed earlier to start with  :P

Mobius' remake of tseug's Slipping has a backroute (essentially the same one Nepster found), so it can't be used unless fixed, and I haven't found the intended solution yet. In spite of the identical title, this is a completely different level, so it shouldn't be thought of as a possible alternative for replacing nortaneous' Slipping.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2014, 05:17:06 PM »
I essentially agree with everything Proxima wrote.

If one wants to tighten Slipping Again, one could even remove four builders and one basher. But the basic idea is present in this solution as well.

As for mobius' remake of tseug's level: My solution of tseug's original level borders on being glitchy and uses one trick that doesn't seem to work under Lix mechanics. So it is not clear to me what an intended solution for the Lix remake would consist of?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2014, 12:20:28 AM »
Fixed version of Waltz in C Sharp Miner, after backroute found by Ramon. As usual, edited the easier version (Little Viennese Waltz) to match.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2014, 05:56:11 PM »
And another fix for The Hotel in Hell.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2014, 08:39:22 PM »
Okay, after a little hiatus I came back to solving Lix set level due to some encouragement by Ramon, who has also been playing through this set.

Here are my solutions for:

The Lix Who Japed
Buy One Get One Free (Part 2)
100% Built by Lixes
Spin Geometry
Bashing & Building
Close to the Edge
3.1.1.1.
From the Other Side
Trading and Cooperating
Behind Bars
Won't Get Fooled Again

Also, here's my level Feel the Pressure changing the places of climber and floater skills in the skill panel because they were mixed for whatever reason earlier. I want the authentic skill order in this case. :P There's no other changes.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2014, 09:19:47 PM »
FYI:  Akseli found my one true intended solution (actually a trickier variant thereof) for Won't Get Fooled Again.  Yay! :thumbsup: But for now, I'll still leave in geoo's alternate solution as before, considering this a community set.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2014, 09:20:59 PM »
Bashing & Building: Backrouted! New version attached.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2014, 12:52:20 AM »
Post with a bunch of hints for the pack. But not all of them. Curses at my laziness on this matter!!

"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2014, 01:45:53 AM »
FYI:  Akseli found my one true intended solution (actually a trickier variant thereof) for Won't Get Fooled Again.  Yay! :thumbsup: But for now, I'll still leave in geoo's alternate solution as before, considering this a community set.

Okay, bad news for Akseli (and me really):  I've thought about it some more, and came to the realization that Akseli's solution variant has a rather undesirable property for a late Hopeless level:  I think there's quite the potential for the player to simply stumble upon the working solution completely by accident. :XD:

The variant I originally have in mind cannot be stumbled upon that easily, but I don't believe I can enforce my variant over Akseli's.  I was actually aware of Akseli's variant all this time but have never quite thought through the implications, particularly this "stumble-ability" aspect.

So while I haven't decided yet, I'm slowly leaning towards taking out my solution concept altogether and only leaving in the alternate solution from geoo.  One other alternative I'm weighing is maybe to try tweaking the level so that the player has to at least do a little bit of tweaking to get the solution to work out like Akseli's, in other words to try decreasing the probability of stumbling upon it.  At the moment I'm not optimistic I can achieve that though, and even if I can, not sure having any chance of the player stumbling onto a working solution totally by accident is good for a late Hopeless level.

======================

If I do decide to change the level I'll post it here on the thread.  In the meantime, see if you get lucky and stumble upon this solution yourself, then maybe you can tell me if it'd be lame to allow the solution.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2015, 07:34:06 PM »
(Finally!) Fixed versions of Yuki, Muon / Lion, Lix to remove Akseli's backroute.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2015, 11:14:55 PM »
My solution for the updated "Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite". :)



Edit by Simon: All level updates up to this post have been collected by geoo and me. They are in the main download of Lix 2015-04-25. -- Simon
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 12:35:55 PM by Simon »

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2015, 09:03:48 PM »
I've made some more progress on organizing the pack and fixing backroutes, here's the latest version: https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/zipball/gh-pages
Place everything in this archive in levels/single/lixlfpack, so the folder contains the subfolders for the individual ratings. This is necessary for the replays to work.

This version includes valid replays for all levels, 777 in total. This should help you check you levels for backroutes. The following are some levels that have backroutes or at least alernative solution that are worth checking, but there are more:
Akseli: Feel the Pressure
Nepster: Heed the Traffic Light, Devil's Right Hand
Proxima: Ascending and Descending? (Clam's soln saves 5 builder skills), Come on down to my place?, Go West, Buridan?, The Crimson Room, Dream the Impossible Dream
mobius: The lix lies down on broadway, Division of labour, The Last Laugh (which of these is intended?), Cold Iron's Bound?
Steve: 3.1.1.1, A matter of perspective, Off the Rails, To Destroy is to Construct, Well OK Then, Impetus?
tseug: The gr8 Escape
geoo: Buy on get one free 1,
Nort: This is a stickup

Then there are the two versions of Slipping, the first of which I think Proxima said he might have a look at?
Then there are levels we need to have a look at once bombers are instant, for backroute checks: Bottomless closet (geoo), Empty Space (geoo), Won't get fooled again (ccx), The Hotel in Hell (Proxima).

Then, with the removal of esoteric skills and the option to have both bombers in a level, these need adjustment:
Halfway down the stairs: There's a variety of solutions that works with just 1 bomber, so just stripping it of one kind of bomber would still keep the level interesting.
Skulls, Sludge and Steel can be adapted to use bombers instead of burners.
Panic Attack can be adapted to use only 1 kind of bomber, I'm pretty sure, someone just has to do it.

Below are the recent changes:
Cunning/elixir.txt
Cunning/erbalunga.txt
Cunning/someliketorun.txt (eliminated one of Clam's solutions)
Daunting/alieninvasion.txt (former solution of Ramon's removed)
Daunting/backslash.txt
Daunting/buyonegetonefree1.txt
Daunting/buyonegetonefree2.txt
Daunting/cornerstone.txt
Daunting/littleminerpuzz3.txt
Daunting/narbaculardrop.txt
Hopeless/ohnonotagain.txt
Hopeless/themon0lith.txt
Hopeless/trading.txt
Hopeless/wereinthisonetog.txt
Vicious/bulldozer.txt
Vicious/changing.txt (time limit removed)
Vicious/lixesinarms.txt
Vicious/spingeometry.txt (time limit removed)
Vicious/triangleineq.txt

Attached are most the backroutes that I eliminated with the most recent update, listed below:
backslash-Akseli.txt
backslash-Clam.txt
bulldozer-Ramon.txt
buyonegetonefree2-Ramon.txt
cornerstone-Clam.txt
elixir-Akseli.txt
erbalunga-Clam.txt
erbalunga-Nepster.txt
littleminerpuzz3-Clam.txt
lixesinarms-Clam.txt
narbaculardrop-Clam.txt
ohnonotagain-Ramon.txt
spingeometry-Ramon.txt
themon0lith-Ramon.txt
trading-Ramon.txt
wereinthisonetog-Ramon.txt
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:06:00 PM by geoo »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2015, 10:51:44 PM »
I checked the replays for my levels on your list. Mostly these were meant to have multiple solutions (not necessarily "anything goes", I sometimes have a level that deliberately has two distinct intended solutions).

Ascending and Descending is an "anything goes" level, but Clam's solution takes advantage of an oversight in the level design, which I'm inclined to fix. Thus, the block at the bottom-right of the large wall should be replaced by a square block, so his builder can't hit its head there. No, it would still be possible for the builder to hit his head under the block. So I would just leave this as-is.

Dream the Impossible Dream was originally meant to have a particular solution, but I'd already decided it is not worth enforcing this. The replays use nearly all skills and are not trivial, so I'm inclined to leave this level as-is.

* * *

I did look at the two Slipping levels -- my comments are on page 5 of this topic. In summary: both levels are fine as-is, but ideally should be moved at least one ranking earlier, if suitable levels can be found to move up in their place. Whether moved or not, Slipping Again could be tightened by removing some skills, but keeping these skills makes execution easier. I hope we will keep both levels (and especially Slipping Again) in the set, but in the end it's your call.

As for Halfway Down the Stairs, it does reduce the variety of interesting challenge solutions, but if it's for the best overall, I'm okay with removing the fling-bomber (in which case the jumper should be kept).

* * *

One last thing. In the main list of level authors (in the text that displays when you navigate into the lemforum pack in-game), if it's not too much to ask, could I be listed as "Michael S. Repton" instead of just "Michael"?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 11:11:11 PM by Proxima »

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2015, 11:10:58 PM »
I can't fix any backroutes but I can at least leave some comments:

The Gr8 Escape; I haven't looked at the replays (I don't have lix installed right now) but this level may need a change; if there is any steel in the level remove it. t3tesla [or someone...] found a backroute utilizing the steel in Lemmini. Not as interesting as ccx's solution imo.
Makes me wonder though... why the steel is there, since ccx's solution avoids the steel altogether [wait that doesn't mean anything..] :-\

Broadway;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Division of Labor; I thought this one was okay with at least 2 solutions. If there are more that's ok unless one is way easier.

The Last Laugh -- isn't this the level which was an adaptation of a level by Pieuw? If it is I don't care about this level at all; it's up to you or somebody else. I just didn't like this one anymore.

Cold Iron's Bound
Spoiler (click to show/hide)



how nice is it to have spoiler tags now? :thumbsup:
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2015, 11:44:48 AM »
There are at least two more level replacements scheduled:
Three Days of the Condor will be replaced by Lixes in Motion. (There are a bunch of levels using the main trick of the former, which is all it is about really.)
You'll be happy to hear that I plan to replace Soaring with Ramon's new level 'The Mile High Club', provided someone can solve it (attached) -- Soaring ironically becomes more difficult to execute with the instant bomber change.
If new/old levels come up that warrant inclusion, I'd be willing to swap out maybe Excavation or Stickup, though I'm mostly happy with the levels we got.


@mobius: For the Gr8 Escape, the solution is very close to the intended one (or what I think to be intended) and certainly doesn't involve any steel, so I'm quite happy to leave the level as it.
Broadway: Ramon's solution uses some obscure behaviour, but it certainly doesn't use the main trick. Not sure if it can be eliminated easily, unless you replace the walkers for something else fulfilling their purpose.
Division of Labor: Most solutions are similar and use the same main trick, but one uses a basher/miner cancel which could be easily eliminated though by moving one platform a little. I can do that if you want.
Cold Iron's bound: Right now it has a few different solutions, I think it had those from the beginning. Some of them are interesting in their own right, but could be eliminated by cutting the basher I think.

The Last Laugh is a level I'm quite happy with, it's interesting. It has a multitude of solutions, I'm just wondering if the level should be tightened a bit to cut some of them, and what the actual intended solution is.


Quote
I did look at the two Slipping levels -- my comments are on page 5 of this topic. In summary: both levels are fine as-is, but ideally should be moved at least one ranking earlier, if suitable levels can be found to move up in their place. Whether moved or not, Slipping Again could be tightened by removing some skills, but keeping these skills makes execution easier. I hope we will keep both levels (and especially Slipping Again) in the set, but in the end it's your call.
I think I'll keep both levels as they are, and bump them down a rating. I'm happy to implement any specific changes to the levels, but will leave them as is if there are no suggestions.

Quote
As for Halfway Down the Stairs, it does reduce the variety of interesting challenge solutions, but if it's for the best overall, I'm okay with removing the fling-bomber (in which case the jumper should be kept).
There's one fling solution, but apart from that the uses of the two kinds of bombers are interchangeable in all solutions. So leaving the L1 bomber cuts one more solution than leaving the L2 bomber. But I can cut out the L2 bomber, whichever you prefer. It's necessitated via one of Simon's design changes. At least with regard to using a jumper and a climber bomb to get up 2 levels, cutting a bomber instead of the jumper achieves the same.

Quote
One last thing. In the main list of level authors (in the text that displays when you navigate into the lemforum pack in-game), if it's not too much to ask, could I be listed as "Michael S. Repton" instead of just "Michael"?
Can do that, no problem.

As for the other levels, I assumed some might be ones deliberately allowing for multiple solutions, that's why I put the question mark. Thanks for the feedback!


Regarding hints, below are the levels that don't have hints written for them yet. I don't require having hints for every single level, but it'd be nice to have some more at least. I'm also alright with delegating the hint writing to other people if you want to write hints for  someone busy or for authors who aren't active here anymore.

Akseli: Feel the Pressure
Amanda: Skulls, Sludge, and Steel
Ben Bryant: Leap of Faith, Lix Cannon
ccx: 100% Built by Lixes, Brickout, Won't Get Fooled Again
finlay: It's a Long Way Up
geoo: Spin Geometry, Alien Abduction, Alien Invasion, Cornerstone, Every Lix for Herself!, Setting a Fundament, The Bottomless Closet, Time to Change the Road, Trading and Cooperating, Breackout, Dances With Lixes, Elixir
I.S./geoo: Alternative Methods Required, Derailed Level, Empty Space is Hardly a Waste
I.S./Michael: The Road Goes Ever On
Insane Steve: Betcha Can't Save Just One!, Declination Innovation Station, Detour, Don't Look Back, Endeavor, Four Color Circus, Four Corners, Get Down from There!, Get Hype, Impetus, Infrastructure Budget Cut, Just Stop the Bleeding, Low Clearance, Mental Process, Need a Boost?, No More Heroes, Off the Rails, Pitfall, Rhapsody--, Round Trip, Segmentation Fault, Snowjump, Snow Really, The Mon0lith, The Rainbow Road, The Runaround, Think Fast!, Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks, Tribute to Flagpole Sitting, Wait Why is There a Tree, Waste Not, Want Not, Watch Ye Step!, Well OK Then
Isu: Cry for Me
M. Zurlinden: Lixes in Arms
Michael: Brute Fours, Finale, Metal City Mayhem, Seven Pillars of Lixdom, Survival of the Craftiest, The Crimson Room, Labyrinth of Despair
minimac: All Over the Place, Blocked by a Snowball, Some Like to Run
mobius: Another Funeral, Climb to Freedom!, Fear of Heights, Passing Engagement, That Pesky Gap, Three Days of the Condor, When the Levee Breaks
mobius/Nepster: Escape the Pit
mobius/Nort.: Slipping, Slipping Again
mobius/Pieuw: Erbalunga, Division of Labor, The Last Laugh
namida: Hellfire, Panic Attack, Variety Day
Nortaneous: A Completely Ridiculous Level, Another Lix in the Wall, Excavation, Lix Ferenda, Lix Lata, Now This is Fun, The Abominable Snowlix, The Pit, The Ring of Fnargl, This is a Stickup, Under the Rainbow, Wreck of the Hesperus
Prob Lem: Hrududu
Rubix: Low Profile, Systematic Separation, Tick Toxic
Simon: Ferry Tale, Logging Your Progress, Mice in the Pipeline, Tapestry
tseug: Oh No, Not Again!
weirdybeardy: Death or Glory

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2015, 12:19:18 PM »
On second thoughts, one possibility for Ascending and Descending would be to add a sawblade at (542,434) so that its deadly zone just fails to protrude beyond the wall. That shouldn't hurt the other solutions.

I'll do some hints as soon as I can  :lix-cool:

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2015, 11:55:32 PM »
Division of Labor: the basher/miner cancel is ok with me. That's a difficult trick in it's own right.

If memory serves, the original solution to LAst Laugh was to have 2 lemmings delay themselves by climbing and jumping around the same small area [the middle wall] while the builder gets to the exit.

It should be possible to remove the walkers in Broadway since they don't exist in the Lemmini/Lemmix version of this level. I believe that version is a bit simpler but basically, If I remember in Lix; there is no wall on the lower left? It could be added here to get rid of the walkers. There may be more to it than that though...
I can send you a pic and stats of the Lemmini version if you'd like. It has arrow walls but I don't think they're necessary.

The other levels, I'm fine with as is, having more than one solution.

-----

on another note: I pose a challenge to anyone:

try solving Death or Glory in under 1 minute (or close). Weirdybeardy made a second level titled Death or Glory part 2 which is identical except a 1 time limit. I don't know if this is actually possible, but I'm really curious if it is. I have not been able to do so myself. Since this level is remade from a Lemmix the timing may not be exact [hence I said "or close"]
(the normal solution should not be possible)
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2015, 12:19:49 AM »
try solving Death or Glory in under 1 minute (or close). Weirdybeardy made a second level titled Death or Glory part 2 which is identical except a 1 time limit. I don't know if this is actually possible, but I'm really curious if it is. I have not been able to do so myself. Since this level is remade from a Lemmix the timing may not be exact [hence I said "or close"]
(the normal solution should not be possible)
I suspect this is no longer possible on the Lix version, which has a fixed spawn interval of 50 :lix-cool:

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2015, 02:56:00 AM »
I've gotten to work writing hints. I do want hints for all the levels I have in this set, even the early Simple ones.

EDIT: And, on working on the hints, I want a 59 second time limit for Just Stop the Bleeding. (This is definitely not an increase in challenge, but one in aesthetic. Probably harder to find a working solution that times out, than one that doesn't. really.)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:35:27 AM by Insane Steve »
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2015, 03:58:01 PM »
I added 80 more replays, mostly Akseli's, and that means a few more backroutes:
Bashing and building, Bulldozer, From the Other Side, Lixes in Arms.
Survival of the Craftiest has a route using a batter to create a safe fall, I forgot to mention, if I recall correctly.

I changed the name from Michael to Michael S. Repton in all the levels.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2015, 06:18:37 PM »
Here are updates for Bashing & Building, Heed the Traffic Light and Devil's Right Hand (including replays of the intended solutions).
I thought long about accepting Ramon's clever alternative solution to Devil's Right Hand, but in the end decided to remove it due to
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2015, 07:51:20 PM »
I was pretty sick today (still am), so I didn't get to update the pack before leaving to Ethiopia tomorrow.

I might have the chance to update, or maybe not, at some point there. Either way, you can still work on backroute testing, backroute fixing and hint writing. :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2015, 10:00:43 PM »
Some thoughts on the first half of Simple, replaying the levels after a long absence:

The new level ordering is very good -- it feels like a natural progression both in terms of difficulty and concept. There's only one really out of place level, which is Blocked by a Snowball (16); this is similar to and easier than Building Block Maze (3)!

Blocked by a Snowball should have skill numbers changed to restore the 1-2-3 etc pattern in the new skill ordering.

Every Lix for Herself! and Blocked by a Snowball both have 0 fling-exploders. To avoid confusing new players, levels with 0 exploders should use non-fling until the fling exploder is introduced in Minimalism Part 1 (18).

Level 1 is trivial; then Levels 2-6 require the player to become familiar with other skills, a few at a time. This is good. At the moment, 2 includes builder, platformer, basher, miner (but is easily solved with just bashers); 3 includes the same four skills plus exploder, blocker, digger; 4 has exactly the same skills as 3; 5 requires exploder and blocker (3 and 4 do not really require them); and 6 introduces walker, jumper, climber, floater, batter. The biggest problem with this is that it's irksome to be without floaters in 3.

For a while I was considering more radical changes, but now I think all that's needed is a simple change: remove the small block above the hatch (which was also removed in the repeat, Path of Wickedness, so the two levels would be identical again). This would make it much easier to get up, and it would be less likely the player would create a splat fall.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2015, 12:58:46 AM »
Also, the following levels should probably be modified now that a level can contain all 14 skills:

Any Way You Want
Four Color Circus
Alternative Methods Recommended
The Borderland
Lix Potion Number Nine
Four Corners
Snow Really
The Lion, Lix and the Wardrobe
The Road Goes Ever On
The Adventure Playground

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2015, 06:55:41 PM »
Thanks a lot for your feedback. I implemented all the suggested changes, except for one thing:

Levels with 0 imploders displaying the exploder symbol: This is currently a limitation of the Lix symbol. Will change that if the level format gets updated to allow for that.

Moved 'Blocked by a Snowball' to position 7. I guess it fits quite well there, featuring all skills after the previous levels only featured a selection of skills each.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2015, 02:04:47 AM »
I've known for a long time my level "The Picard Maneuver" still has at least 1 backroute (I'm pretty sure it has more). I wanted at least one trick which Insane Steve found to be present in the solution.

I recently made the attached level which is quite a bit different but I'm hoping to enforce that same trick. This level is intended to replace Picard Maneuver. It needs to be backroute tested first of course. Thanks to anyone who plays.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #91 on: September 21, 2015, 07:17:26 AM »
Hmm, I'm not actually aware of a backroute for the Picard Maneuver. The new level you just posts certainly has a backroute though (but it looks interesting):

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2015, 10:18:30 PM »
Thanks. Surprisingly I could make a fix already, and a pretty simple one too.

One backroute on Picard involved bashing into the steel blocks, which in turn, were added to remove another backroute of a different nature which I don't remember so they couldn't simply be removed. Besides these backroutes there still were fundamental problems with blocker behavior.* But in any case; when it's reached this point I 've decided to scrap the level and make it totally different. I don't think a simple fix will fix it; I don't feel like making 10+ amends to a level anymore. [of course that will probably happen to this level too] :XD:
Now I've managed to do it with no blockers, and no builders, which is nice.
I discovered this a while ago but I don't think I said anything because I couldn't think of any way to fix it at the time.

*Of which, was partly taken care of in Lemmini due to it's poorly designed blocker behavior, until RTW proved that didn't work either. But I don't like making levels relying on that sort of thing.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2015, 11:47:41 PM »
Attached is my solution which looks pretty much intended. Nice skill placement puzzle with crowd control.

I'm happy to replace "The Picard Maneuver" with this level. The new level might be a bit harder but I think it's ok near the end of Daunting.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2015, 12:24:21 AM »
success!

let me know if there are any other levels of mine which could be fixed or replaced. Lately I've been making some major modifications to the Lemmix versions and have found a few ways to remove backroutes etc, that I haven't before.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2015, 09:34:05 PM »
Recent game mechanics changes made the attached solution/backroute to "Won't get fooled again" (again) possible.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2015, 03:08:27 AM »
Recent game mechanics changes made the attached solution/backroute to "Won't get fooled again" (again) possible.

Haven't looked yet, but this sure feels like Santa leaving a lump of coal for me. :XD:  I guess I'll look over it on my upcoming vacation.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2015, 03:26:22 AM »
Nah, cc, don't feel sad...



-- Simon

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2016, 08:01:51 PM »
Here is the new version of Heed the Traffic Light.
Time to find a fix with required SI-change: 1 minute (just change the SI to 25)
Time to find a fix that allows constant SI: 45 minutes :devil:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2016, 01:28:06 AM »
Recent game mechanics changes made the attached solution/backroute to "Won't get fooled again" (again) possible.

Finally got around to looking.  Huh, I can't remember for sure what supposedly kept it from working previously? ??? I'd need to see if I can find the computer that still has older versions of Lix.  I may need to start making video captures of these replays now to deal with the versioning issue. :XD:

I suspect it might take a while before I can find a way to eliminate this.  Or maybe I'll just give up and let this one in. :XD:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2016, 02:30:32 AM »
Hmm, does it have to do with the change to make explodes/imploders instantaneous?  I guess I forgot I might have been implicitly relying on that for certain cases of backroutes prevention there.

I think I have worked out an okay fix related to this, which I'll post later tonight.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2016, 08:30:34 AM »
Yes, instantaneous imploders made this possible. Note that imploder holes only hold Lix when the imploder is facing down on the miner slope. So in previous versions one had to wait for quite some time until one could assign the imploder, while losing too many Lix.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2016, 03:01:05 PM »
One thing the community set currently lacks is a good early level to familiarise the player with what steel is and how it behaves. Levels 4 (Diamond Dash) and 5 (Hrududu) contain steel, but not in places where the player would naturally interact with it; the first levels where steel behaviour is important are 24 (Pitfall) and 27 (Little Viennese Waltz).

Suggestion: Make the middle pillar of Diamond Dash steel so the player has to go around?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2016, 07:42:42 PM »
Hmm, the level that helps familiarize the player with steel may also be the place to familiarize them with the one-way-wall idiom?  Just a thought.  I don't actually remember if any levels in the set currently features it.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #104 on: February 03, 2016, 07:59:52 PM »
The one-way gadget, made from carefully aligned steel and terrain, is relatively complex. I would rather suggest a dedicated level for this, where you cannot bypass it.

Diamond Dash is open-ended, so it's interesting to put a small piece of steel right in the obvious path.

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #105 on: February 03, 2016, 08:27:55 PM »
Quirky 36 (Exit, stage right) has a simpler form of one-way enforcement using steel that's easier to grasp, and the full gadget is present soon after in Cunning 7 (Lix Cannon). I think these levels are deep enough in and simple enough that the gadget doesn't need a prior tutorial level.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #106 on: February 29, 2016, 10:02:18 PM »
For a while now I've been thinking what to replace Laser Deathroom 2 with as it doesn't work anymore with the new digger physics.
Ramond's Mile High Club is supposedly a bit too borderline glitchy according to Simon, though Ramond allegedly also has another level that could serve as a replacement (maybe you could post it here?).

Here's an adaptation of Laser Deathroom 2 that's solvable again and somewhat in the spirit of the original levels. What do you think about it? Maybe we can just use it for now so I can get the final version of the pack for C++ Lix out, and things could still be shuffled around a little bit for the D port.

Offline Ramon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #107 on: February 29, 2016, 11:59:23 PM »
I am planning on revising Mile High Club for the new D Lix, in a way that Simon will be content with it. I don't think any of my other levels is fit to go into the Community Pack, as they're just either too trolly or too specific/intense execution-wise.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2016, 05:58:33 PM »
Regarding the new Laser Deathroom 2: The idea is kind of nice, but it requires too much fiddling around/precise skill assignments/luck in the current setup.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The attached replay is made using C++ Lix.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2016, 06:45:17 PM »
My solution to Laser Deathroom 2 is less fiddly than Nepster's. Yet I see how the level attracts fiddliness.

Ramond loves Mile High Club. I have seen the solution and consider it more interesting than Laser Deathroom 2. The trick to Mile High Club is exciting, and will certainly stay in C++ Lix. It's the same in D Lix, but I'm unwilling to guarantee whether it stay in forever.

<Ramond> yes, are you planning to [change related physics?]
<SimonN> No. But I don't want to give a final word on this.
<Ramond> who will? the userbase?
<SimonN> nobody will give you powerful guarantees on this. If you want stable physics for the next 10 years, build against nuke-glitch-Lemmix.
* Ramond has left


Stop reacting like an offended teen girl :> I don't want to make the decision. Has anyone solved the level? Would like strategic input on the trick.

-- Simon

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2016, 09:28:58 AM »
Here's my proposed modification to The Mile High Club to prevent a simple solution to the first half. Even if physics changes occur the level can be slightly modified to still work.

My solution to the modified Laser Deathroom is a bit different and less fiddly and I could prevent yours with a terrain change, but I think I'll just leave the level out and have Mile High Club instead.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2016, 06:31:03 PM »
Version of The Continuum Hypothesis that should work without VSI.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2016, 04:59:41 PM »
Diamond Dash: added a steel block in the middle to help familiarise new players with steel.

Ascending and Descending: added sawblade to block Clam's backroute.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #113 on: April 14, 2016, 08:56:34 PM »
I made the last proposed changes. All levels have been verified to be solvable.

Though I was wondering, what about "Won't get fooled again"? Is there still a backroute that needs fixing?
Other than that, I'm thinking of adding all the hints that we have so far to the levels, what do you think?

Finally, please check the latest version and complain about anything that you don't like: https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/zipball/gh-pages

You can see the changes from the commit log, click on the commits for more details: https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/commits/gh-pages

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #114 on: April 14, 2016, 09:37:02 PM »
I don't remember if I said this before but in case I didn't:
I really like having hints available for my levels, unfortunately I suck at writing them. I guess it's a little late now but if anyone wants to add a hint to any of my levels feel free to do so.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #115 on: April 14, 2016, 11:49:17 PM »
As promised, I've compiled a list of all the references (that I've spotted!) in the level names. Let me know if there are any more

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2016, 11:42:27 PM »
Though I was wondering, what about "Won't get fooled again"? Is there still a backroute that needs fixing?

It's been a while but off top of my head, I'd tentatively say there isn't anything to fix anymore?  The only thing that came to mind is it currently allows both your solution as well as my intended one.  The main concern now is whether to account right now for possible future removal of variable SI.  My intended solution never requires variable SI but yours does.  I'm probably not going to take the effort myself to try getting your solution to work without variable SI, but feel free to do so yourself if you want.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2016, 07:30:18 AM »
I was referring to Nepster's post with a replay of a backroute: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1815.msg54510#msg54510
And your responses in post #99 and #100 which made it sounds like you were intent to fix it.
I haven't tried the level since, but I could also imagine that the instant bomber might allow for some things to work that didn't previously, as I remember the delay in the bomber made some things harder for me when I was getting my solution to work. I just tried again and attached it my solution, we doesn't feel as annoying to pull off as it used to.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 07:45:03 AM by geoo »

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2016, 05:42:13 PM »
I just checked my todo list (and read the chat logs), and I'll swap the following two pairs of levels (with the version from the outtakes folder, respectively) unless someone says otherwise:
  • I will Replace Three Days of the Condor with Lixes in Motion.
  • I will put Eye of the Needle back instead of Absolute Zero. (Some other levels already use the Abs. Zero trick, and while I had a lot of trouble with the level, I think the consensus is that Eye of the Needle is harder.)

Some other things that I could change if someone cares (tell me if you do), but otherwise won't:
  • I think at some point it's been suggested to change the builder to a basher in 'Climb to Freedom'.
  • The last laugh: Has a variety of interesting solutions. I could cut one basher to enforce Akseli's variation and to make it more appropriate for its ranking.
  • Comment by Akseli: Follow the Yellow Brick Road – This was easier than Charge of the Lix Brigade imo. -- Should I do something about this, e.g. swap the two levels?

And I will add the hints that I have, and any that are sent to me within the next few days.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 06:06:00 PM by geoo »

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2016, 11:34:08 PM »
I just checked my todo list (and read the chat logs), and I'll swap the following two pairs of levels (with the version from the outtakes folder, respectively) unless someone says otherwise:
  • I will Replace Three Days of the Condor with Lixes in Motion.
  • I will put Eye of the Needle back instead of Absolute Zero. (Some other levels already use the Abs. Zero trick, and while I had a lot of trouble with the level, I think the consensus is that Eye of the Needle is harder.)

Some other things that I could change if someone cares (tell me if you do), but otherwise won't:
  • I think at some point it's been suggested to change the builder to a basher in 'Climb to Freedom'.
  • The last laugh: Has a variety of interesting solutions. I could cut one basher to enforce Akseli's variation and to make it more appropriate for its ranking.
  • Comment by Akseli: Follow the Yellow Brick Road – This was easier than Charge of the Lix Brigade imo. -- Should I do something about this, e.g. swap the two levels?

And I will add the hints that I have, and any that are sent to me within the next few days.

Unless there's plenty of easy levels (I seem to remember there being more hard than easy) I'd vote to keep the Last Laugh easier by allowing more solutions and maybe move it if it's really out of place.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2016, 09:58:13 AM »
I swapped the two pairs of levels now. I also lowered the save requirement for Charge of the Lix Brigade and moved The Last Laugh and Follow the Yellow Brick Road close the the beginning of its respective ranking.

I will now work on the script that will add the hints from the spreadsheet. So if you have any new hints and plan to write some very soon, please tell me.
EDIT: Script is done.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 10:39:42 AM by geoo »

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!
« Reply #121 on: May 29, 2016, 04:11:07 PM »
Proxima, or anyone else: any progress on hint writing?

With everything else done, I wouldn't want to postpone the release for too much longer just for the hints.