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Offline geoo

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Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« on: May 31, 2014, 02:34:06 AM »
This is an incomplete alpha version of the Lix Community pack. We're getting close! Thanks everyone for contributing so far, and keep it up so we will finish soon!

The last 4 ratings (Cunning, Daunting, Vicious, Hopeless) are ordered. Please comment on any level that you think is in a place it doesn't belong. I adapted my ratings to take Nepster's comments into account, and then determined a positon based on my and Proxima's ratings. I also went for diversity, i.e. don't put similar levels too close together. The last few levels of a rating might be harder than the first few of the next rating.
I gave NaOH the task to come up with an ordering for the first 40 levels, possibly with adjustments to some levels to smoothen the difficulty curve.
Once that is done (maybe after some discussion), I'll compile a version where all levels are sorted into their ratings (probably still with excess levels).
Please also comment on any other issue there might be. There might be inconsistencies in capitalization of the level titles or author names, please point them out and suggest a fix.

A few levels need the new terrain updates: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1002.msg20541#new
Latest version of the level bundle (.zip): https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/zipball/gh-pages
Level list (html): http://geoo89.github.com/lixlfpack/
Level list (xls spreadsheet): https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/blob/gh-pages/lixlfpack.xls?raw=true
Date of last update for each level: https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack
If you want all the levels viewable in lix in alphabetical order, just copy all the levels from the rating folders into the main folder.

This is a bit rushed, but I won't be home for the next three weeks and won't have much time to work on this. Please don't feel discourage from posting in the thread by my likely low activity for the next three weeks in this thread.

Right now there are 17 excess levels, meaning we have more than 40 per rating.
Below I compiled a list of levels that I consider in potential danger of being scrapped.
You're encouraged to compile your own list of levels you wouldn't mind seeing gone.

Some levels are not final. You can still update your levels, in fact some levels still need work. See below.
There's definitely no shortage of levels, so in order to add a level after this alpha has been released, please put with your levels a suggestion or a few suggestions (preferrably not in the top 12 of my list) of which level your new level should replace (not in the same position, they can end up in different ratings, it's just that one level goes and another level comes in).

You're encouraged to add hints to your levels that a player can iteratively view when stuck in a level! Most levels don't have hints yet, I only have a list of hints from Proxima so far. While not a must, please consider adding hints to your levels! Send them to me, preferred format: Take this spread sheet from https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/blob/gh-pages/lixlfpack.xls?raw=true and in the 4 tiny columns at the end there's space for 4 hints (if you need more, just continue in the next columns). At the end I will write a script to add the hints into the levels.

Please refer to levels with their name, not their rating as the latter might still change.



Some special ordering ponderings:
Switch Chasm (Vicious 40) and MERDEMERDE...(Early Hopeless)? - Chasm looks completely impossible, and it extremely hard to execute, that's why I thought it might fit Vicious 40, the most vicious of all levels. MERDE... is definitely easier, maybe a good breather in Hopeless. Another alternative for Vicious 40 might be Metal City Mayhem.
Which level last: The News Struck at Ten (formerly Stroke at Retirement Age), You Only Get One Bash at It, Brickout - It seems the Brickout will be a simplified version, and YOGOBAI has my easier alternative solution, so I went with TNSAT for now.
First level of Cunning: LIX, The Razor's Edge, Merge Sort - which one?

Hints:
LIX: Add 1 minute challenge (already added in spreadsheet, please say if objecting)
Too Far to walk: 0:55 left on the clock challenge (already added in spreadsheet, please say if objecting)
You only get one bash at it: Have to add hints (Don't want to read them)
Put your lix on ice: Hints says to turn a lix in a miner tunnel (I guess), but you can just turn on steel.
Labyrinth of despair: Add hint re. 100% challenge

Levels that need a design overhaul in order to stay:
All over the place
Heavenly skies
Escape the Pit

Levels that could do with improved design:
The Giant Mushroom
Three Days of the Condor
Roundabout
The Lix Who Japed
Well OK Then
Bulldozer
Nepster's complaints:
Babylon Fading
It's a long way up
Digging the Air (layout is good, but it doesn't fill one screen)
To Destroy is to Construct
Division of Labor.

Levels that are still WIP:
wontgetfooledagain.txt
thenewsstruck.txt
brickout.txt

Levels with known backroutes (backroutes attached):
lixcannon.txt
buridan.txt
3111.txt
nomoreheroes.txt
betchacantsave.txt (can save 2, though I wonder if the level is open-ended so there are no real backroutes?)

Suggested changes:
Lixology: replace with Breackout (attached), maybe with prettier water at the bottom once available
Dances with Lixes: Enforce trickier sol? (alternative version attached). Rationale: There are two quite different solution approaches. One of them is already used in 100% Built by Lixes and Ascending and Descending, while the other one is, I believe, novel. I attached a version with buzzsaws enforcing the second approach, I wonder whether I should include this version instead, as the ideas from the first approach are already featured in two other levels. (Spoiler: Approach one is building a bridge from the left, but not completely to the steel at the right, and have another lix build a bridge from the top of the steel to the left, thus falling onto the lower bridge. Approach 2 instead builds a bridge from left to right all the way to the steel, and then uses a bomber to simultaneously bomb through the bridge and make a dent in the block at the left that makes climbers turn around.)
It Takes Time to Build...: Cut down to 3 bashers/diggers?
Snowball Battle: Remove walker and increase spawn interval?
Just Stop the Bleeding: Still needs Steve's 'hole in the head gang' treatment


Below is a list of levels that are in danger of being scrapped, in order of magnitude of the threat that is exerted by me.
Other players are welcome to compile similar lists. Right now I think it's a good idea (once we have a first rating arranged) to compile an alpha with all 257 levels sorted, and have Akseli give this version with too many levels a playthrough and wait for comments, if Akseli is ok with that.
We need to scrap 17 in total:

Systematic Separation (Hopeless) - could go into RubiX' Epic Adventure
Low Profile (Vicious) - could go into RubiX' Epic Adventure
Tick Toxic (Daunting) - could go into RubiX' Epic Adventure
lixesinarms (Vicious) - part of MaZuLems
Bibbidi (Cunning) - Part of PimoLems
Diggin the Air - Part of PimoLems. Mobius wants it scrapped, Proxima likes it.
Confusing Fractals - Can't turn it into a decent tutorial level
Leap of the Locust - Yeah, very repetitive, and already uses the basher staircase trick. Proxima rating C. Nepster says it's not too repetitive, and actually you don't need the basher staircase trick.
Paragliding to the Pyramid - the level is tricky enough that it's well possible to stumble over significant portions of the solution of Endeavor in this version already.
The Giant Mushroom - nothing strictly bad with it, nothing outstanding though
Walk them golden stairs - Solution is kinda spammy and annoying having to go through the mesh with the given terrain removers. Once You Pop (sequel) is similar except that now you have bombers to work with instead of the other terrain removers, and the lack of other skills except for builders makes it a lot more interesting.
Wrong way - Proxima rating C. I don't think it's that similar to Minimalism (Part 1), still nothing really new here. Nepster says it's better than Minimalism (Part 1). I don't.
Three days of the condor (Cunning) - The only thing really is turning the miner with a blocker here, and it's a huge and ugly level for just showing this trick. Proxima rating A, so I don't know though.
Tower of Babel (Cunning) - Proxima rating C+. Again, pretty unique so I personally find it to be a good one to throw in the mix. The main idea is obvious, but there are a few details to work out. Execution isn't bad actually, especially considering the kind of level this is.
A fearful symmetry (Cunning) - A lot of unrelated stuff for a level that just revolves about one main trick.
Over the Hump (Daunting) - I feel there are a lot of levels with tons of climbers that are similar now
When the Levee breaks (Cunning) - kinda straightforward, mostly about not getting any details wrong.
Laser Deathroom 3 (Vicious) - main idea same as Part 1, just harder setup
Soaring (Cunning) - Proxima rating C+. It's quite unique, but not much of a puzzle and similar to Clam's 'Stall Tactics' there's the weird issue that sometimes they don't go straight up.
The Ring of Fnargl (Vicious) - Unique, but extremely technical, revolves around a precisely timed bomber
Heavenly Skies (Daunting) - This one is pretty tricky, though I personally don't like exercises in estimating how far your builders go. The route I found uses a move that's pretty hard to execute. Needs design overhaul.
Comfort Levels (Daunting) - rename for one.
Cornerstone (Daunting) - With Nepster's route I realize the level is a bit open ended, and there are probably better open-ended levels around (And even the intended route is a little tricky to execute).
Babylon Fading (Cunning) - solid but nothing outstanding about the solution
Play Ball (Daunting) - It's a good level, but the main part is realizing that you have to do synchronization compression. Then it's not so hard, but there are already a few levels that use this, so I wonder if this level is a bit redundant.
Well Ok Then (Cunning) - Proxima rating C+. I don't know something different yet simple, and I quite like it for that. Design could maybe be improved though. Also a bit of a precursor to Chasm.
Snowball Battle: Decent puzzle, not super special but decent. Makes use of the same bland design of the prequel.
A lix on the edge (Cunning) - I don't know what to think about it, it's tricky and interesting, so I guess it's a good thing. Again, I don't see much of a point in the time limit.
A completely ridiculous level -  Like Ramen Masterchef, I think it's nice to have a level or two like this, even if it's kinda weird.
Blocked by a snowball - It's a decent easy level and you have to take care about a few things without risking killing lix. Depends on what else we'll have at the beginning.
Escape the pit - perfectly good if it gets a design overhaul.

Other people would be ok with scrapping:
Proxima: Leap of the Locust, Confusing Fractals, Wrong way, Escape the Pit -- and Diggin' the Air
mobius: when the levee breaks, a lix on the edge!, play ball!, watch ye step (IS's but I remade it and he never made any comments about it), the last laugh, Division of Labor, bibblidi-bobblidi-boo (pieuw), Leap of the Locust



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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 02:00:38 PM »
Many thanks for all the hard work  :)

I'll have a proper look over the ordering and write a proper reply as soon as I have time -- there are just a few things I want to say quickly.

Naturally I favour "You only get one bash at it" as the last level  8)  I don't actually think your solution is easier -- you just happened to find it and not find my solution yet.

First level of Cunning -- I'm going to make a different suggestion, Prelude. Partly because it's appropriate for a level called Prelude to come first  :P

Backroutes -- "Buridan" is annoying but there is no way to fix this. I hope the level's replay value (possibility of reaching either exit, 100% solution) allows it to stay nonetheless. "Lix Cannon" is easy to fix the attached backroute but it has others, all arising from changes to the original level due to having to remove the digger so the one-way substitute would work. I'll give this level a makeover as soon as I have time. "Betcha can't save", nice work saving 2 in the third exit, I already knew it was possible in the first exit. I'll check whether this works in the Lemmix original. I feel that all these solutions are harder than the intended solution and therefore not backroutes. Similarly, while it's not my level so I can't really judge, your "3.1.1.1" route is conceptually much more complex than the intended solution (and follows the same general path) so I don't think it can be called a backroute.

Given that we still have to scrap 17 levels, or slightly more if I want to add one or two (and I do), you can add these to my list of ones I'm okay with scrapping: The Giant Mushroom,  Tower of Babel, A fearful symmetry, Soaring. I'll look through and decide on others  :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 05:54:12 PM »
Here is "Go West" without the forbidden palm tree.

As we discussed on IRC, "Death or Glory" should have a fixed S.I. of 50.

"Dances with Lixes" -- haven't looked at the proposed alteration yet, but in general, placing buzzsaws to remove alternative solutions is an ugly hack, and in my opinion should only be done when the removed solution is trivial enough to spoil the level, which definitely isn't the case here.

"Snowball Battle" -- would rather you don't change.

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 10:41:18 PM »
geoo's 2/4 on "Betcha can't save" and Nepster's 39/40 on "Brute Fours" both confirmed on the Lemmix originals, so I'm inclined to leave them.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 09:54:16 PM »
"Dances with Lixes": Another (easier) solution not mentioned in geoo's post, which should be hard to remove as it allows for many variations and doesn't use all skills.
"News Struck at Ten": If my solution is intended, then this level is way easier than rated.

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 12:45:02 AM »
(Hopefully) fixed versions of "Buridan's Lix" and "Lix Cannon".

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Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 01:27:46 AM »
so should all discussion now go in this thread?

first of all--to all the new levels I added. I'm ok if we choose to just forget them because they could always go in the next big levelpack. (hint, hint...)

I a fix to Picard Maneuver. Remember I want to enforce ISteve's solution which is
Quote
Quote
use the upstroke of a miner to break through bottom of basher tunnel.
as far as other people's levels I'd like scrapped. I can't really mention anything in particular but I'm personally not a fan of anything that involves an awful lot of precision or really obscure behavoir. [Like Stroke at Retirment Age but I have not looked at News Struck at Ten yet so idk about that one.] Top Gear, but this could be modified to be different but still difficult. I doubt anybody agrees with these choices, that's why I haven't said this yet. But then there's a ton of incredibly difficult levels in this pack, a few of which are my own.

I still have to go back and take a look of some levels of mine-- which I've recently found new backroutes too.

--------
on the comments in this thread:

Escape the Pit -- I don't know what you want me to do with it to make it look nicer.
Three Days of the Condor -- I still don't feel like doing anything with this, if there's another level with miner turning scrap it. I don't know how to improve the design anyway.
Roundabout -- again, Idk how I could improve the design much, I did a little work anyway.
Babylon Fading -- don't know how to improve design. I don't see how these levels are any less pretty than other people's.
It's a long way up -- I really hope this one can stay--I really liked this one. I think the design looks fine.
betchacantsave -- ask InsaneSteve... I personally would say leave as is. The original had backroutes as well. I really like this one.
It Takes Time to Build -- your suggestion is as good as mine. This one had many backroute problems.
I'm ok with replacing A Fearful symmetry [with the new one I uploaded in the old thread] or just forgetting both of these.

others that I nominate to remove (just re-mentioning levels) [wait, some are new
It's all uphill from here,
Biblidi Boblidi,
Diggin' the air --I find this one really annoying to execute. To be honest I don't know why I made it in the first place...
Leap of the Locust
Wrong way
Three Days of the Condor
a lix on the edge
play ball!
critical procedures [the repeat, Picard Maneuver is much more original, if I can remove all the backroutes ]
Fear of Heights
Escape the Pit
That Peksy Gap [I completely redid this one in Lemmini but it's similar to geoo's Merge and Sort.
Slippery Pete
Snake--- I just don't like the look of this one all that much
downpour--- I find it really tedious/difficult to execute. Maybe it could be changed because I do like the idea.
Erbalunga
Tribute to Flagpole Sitting -- kind of similar to other minalsm style levels
Tocatta -- it's a lot of cool design but I'm just not a fan of that design style. I find it a little flashy.
there are more but I can't do anymore now.

--------------------
one's I'm opposed to removing. [I'd like to keep these!]
tower of babel--I made an alternate terrain design that you might like better?
Over the hump--I really liked geoo's alternate solution and hope this one stays.


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everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 02:25:06 AM »
If we ever do get to the point where there are still too many levels, I'm happy to make things easier by stating no hard feelings over removal of any of my levels.  Obviously it'd be nice if some were included, but with such a large set, and level designing not really my strongest forte to date, I have to think there are probably plenty enough of other strong levels in the set such that none of mine would be really missed.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 02:55:25 PM »
If we ever do get to the point where there are still too many levels, I'm happy to make things easier by stating no hard feelings over removal of any of my levels.  Obviously it'd be nice if some were included, but with such a large set, and level designing not really my strongest forte to date, I have to think there are probably plenty enough of other strong levels in the set such that none of mine would be really missed.

don't get me wrong--I really liked your levels, especially 100% built by Lix. And like Proxima mentioned I also would like to see everyone that contributed get at least one of their levels in. It's just that the game can reach a certain level of difficulty that, for me personally, it becomes not fun anymore.
I also really liked the idea behind Brickout, but if it can be made as you've said recently (I haven't followed that totally) simpler, so that it only uses 1 or a few tricks that would be better imo.

This is my reasoning behind me changing Eye of the needle, while it may be a good level to some I personally would prefer simplifying these ideas either into the two levels or just one. But I don't really mind either way. I just couldn't think of anything else better to mention in way of eliminating levels. They're all decent  :thumbsup:
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 09:12:56 PM »
Thanks everyone for their feedback so far!

While I still believe that going for 6 ratings in total is good for the overall level quality, I don't think it is good for my sanity. There are a lot of good levels, and the view of which are the least good is so very subjective that it's hard for me to make definite decisions.
I added (way too late, I realize now) a poll on the total number of levels, whose results I might or might not ignore (well I won't ignore them, but I can't guarantee an impact of them on what will happen in the end, though if they are very lop-sided I will be inclined to reconsider), but either way it will give me feedback on a decision that felt right when I made it back then. Note that the reason I won't exceed 40 levels per rating is that 20 levels are being displayed per page. Though again, to have 7 ratings we need one more to put between Quirky and Cunning or Cunning and Dauting (at least that's where I think it'd fit best). Here is some past discussion on the issue: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=648.0
I went with the decision for 6 ratings as I thought scrapping a few levels would ensure quality and 7 ratings would make the size of this pack look too daunting, but for the latter, the difference between 240 and 280 is something that for some arbitrary reason my mind might make me consider as bigger than it is. If somehow we do end up with 7 ratings, that does not mean I want a flood of new levels. You will have a greater chance to get those last few in that you wanted to design/remake because you think they are really excellent, but haven't had the chance to, but preferably not just anything new that you just came up with. It also doesn't mean that all the scrapped levels will come back, or that nothing else will get scrapped, just less will get scrapped than currently planned. Looking at the levels that are left for the first two ratings, I also wonder if the difficulty curve isn't a bit steep, and a few more could be inserted (though that should be decided once a preliminary ordering is done, either way). Then again, we shouldn't bore the player...
Oh and yes, I do follow the policy that everyone who desires so should be allowed at least one level in the pack.

As for scrapping levels due to visuals, I realize that my personal view of aesthetics is very subjective and I shouldn't impose it on everything. While e.g. I find Three Days of the Condor ugly, that's not everyone's view. (Though nevertheless I feel that Escape the pit could looks a bit less like...well, a bunch of random floating blocks, which is generally considered a bit ugly I thought?)

to mobius: As for levels being too hard, I don't think everyone has (or should) try to go and solve all levels. If you just want to play moderately difficult levels for your own enjoyment, just skip Hopeless (and maybe Vicious). I think the pack should offer a good batch of levels to play (and I think moderate difficult right now is where the density is the highest, between Cunning, Daunting and maybe even Vicious there the difficulty difference is not very big, and it was hard for me to classify the levels), which also means it should offer some levels to hardcore players. It's ok if someone loses interest once they reach Hopeless, it's not everyone's cake, and they should have had enough enjoyment playing through the previous levels.

[End of the ramblings of a madman for this post at least.]

I should (but probably won't) leave this topic behind for a few days (as I'm on a vacation anyway for a good two more weeks), just three level specific things:

to Nepster:
The News Struck at Ten: I uploaded a backroute fix that makes one detail closer to what it was in the original level (and made the climber bit impossible). Also will rename to 'Striking News at Ten'.
to Proxima:
Snowball battle: Just so we're on the same page, you use the walker to turn one lix around that is walking out of the digger pit it she walks back in? (Dunno, that seemed like a pointless reaction move to me...then again, you'll probably want to pause at that point anyway.)
You only get one bash: Just so I haven't wasted hours on trying something impossible, your intended solution does bash from right to left, correct? (Because I assumed it didn't and thus didn't look for solutions bashing from left to right, as these would have to be similar to my backroute.)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 11:24:53 PM »
Good idea to have the poll. I'll have another look through the levels before voting, and also give my opinions on which ones could be scrapped in more detail.

If we end up with seven categories, my suggestion for an extra rating would be "Nasty" (between Daunting and Vicious).

Snowball Battle -- the idea was that you have choices for how to contain all the lix (except one) in the dig pit, leading to different solutions depending on which skills you have left. (Indeed, the first solution you sent me doesn't use a walker there.) However, I've now found a solution that may be a bit too straightforward, so your suggestion of cutting the walker would be one way to cut down the possibilities and make the level harder. I'm okay with it going either way.

"You only get one bash at it" --
Quote
This level was inspired by mobius' "Exit, stage right", where he originally used a steel substitute for one-way wall, and because of the specifics of that level, I showed how he could do it without steel, by ensuring that only bashing from the right would be successful. That gave me the idea for "You only get one bash at it", a level where a similar situation is present as a red herring, so it looks as if you are meant to bash right-to-left, but (hopefully) no such route is actually possible.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 01:49:47 AM »
A very difficult decision. I do still have three more levels I want to contribute, which would bring us to 260 exactly; on the other hand, I agree there are still some less interesting levels currently in the set that could be removed, and some of those we seem to have consensus on. Perhaps we should just do it in stages -- another round of scrapping, then see where that leaves us  :P

So, these are the ones I'd be okay with removing, and I'll give my reasons -- hope I don't offend anyone. This is difficult to discuss. My list doesn't include many of my own levels, but on the other hand, in the last round I did agree to a whole batch of mine being removed.

These are (mostly) just levels I wouldn't complain if they were removed; I'd be happy to keep them if it weren't that we have to reduce the numbers. I'll go in order as they appear in the current levelset -- i.e. unsorted levels first, then Cunning, Daunting, Vicious, Hopeless.

Climb to Freedom! -- this is really easy, you have to assign a lot of climbers, and there are unused builders for some reason.
Confusing Fractals -- not interesting. NaOH and I were discussing turning this into a multiplayer level so the design work isn't wasted.
Diggin' the Air -- contained in PimoLems, and a bit tedious to execute correctly. On the plus side, mobius' conversion looks really good.
Downpour -- an execution challenge, which I found to be not too bad, but less fun than puzzle levels. Extremely annoying to optimise number saved. I don't dislike it as such; I just wouldn't miss it if it were gone.
Escape the Pit -- really easy, but its skill numbers and save requirement prevent it being used as an early level. NaOH and I have discussed changing it to 10-of-each and placing it earlier, in which case I'd be much happier with keeping it.
It's All Uphill from Here -- contained in PimoLems, and not a very attractive level. (Just to clarify, since you discussed this in the other topic, mobius' only design change on this level was removing the hidden water objects.)
Leap of the Locust -- tedious jumper assignment, WAFD-ish
Let's block and blow? -- plain appearance, and as I've said, I'm not very fond of levels that hand-hold the player through discovering tricks. On the plus side, it's a decent puzzle level, so I don't have strong feelings about this one.
Paragliding to the Pyramid -- geoo has a point, it's perhaps not necessary to keep both versions of this, and removing a repeat is less painful than removing a unique level. I think it is a decent easier puzzle, though.
Snake -- as geoo said, rather bland, one of the less interesting 20-of-everything levels, has a repeat so the design wouldn't be wasted.
The Giant Mushroom -- looks really ugly, solution is nothing terribly special either
Wrong Way -- very easy, concept is used in other levels, design is nothing special

Soaring -- I don't like levels like this.
Three Days of the Condor, When the Levee Breaks, Castles in the Sky -- Cunning has three levels too many and these are the least interesting. My "A" rating for Condor was based more on appearance than solution, but it's quite fun to play. Then again, so are all our levels!

This is a stickup, A Soulful Bounding Leap!, I'm Gonna Make You Mine, Play Ball -- Daunting has four too many, and it's even harder to find any candidates. If I had to remove any Daunting levels, these would be the ones.

Laser Deathroom 3 -- I can't remember the solutions to the Laser Deathrooms, but I agree that perhaps we don't need all three.
The Ring of Fnargl -- somewhat strange level, solution doesn't feel elegant and needs precision
Bulldozer -- again, just not my type of level

I wouldn't suggest scrapping any Hopeless levels -- the set is really solid. To get it down to 40, I would suggest moving Finale to an earlier set as I don't think it's really hard enough for Hopeless (though as it's my level, it's hard to judge).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 04:36:26 AM »
Okay, got me curious on "You Only Get One Bash At It" (though I wish I hadn't read the spoiler text, oh well).  I've PM a solution over to Proxima.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 08:14:30 AM »
Not sure if I should move to this thread or stay on the original thread, but here's some development on my levels.

For Won't Get Fooled Again I'm actually thinking geoo's solution in v6 is better suited for the community, and it's easy enough to actually kick out my own intended solution for community purposes.  But that still leaves Nepster's solution, which I think might be problematic because it has a spare skill left over, which makes me think it may even be doable without using the obscure trick seen in his replay.

And so in the spirit of Brickout, here's Won't Get Fooled Again v7 v8, where I believe (but as usual not sure) the tweaks will eliminate both geoo's and Nepster's solutions.  [edit: v7 rescinded because I confirmed it just makes a more difficult to execute geoo solution (and there were no downloads yet).  While I can bump up the save requirement again to handle that, I decide to be nice (so to speak) and go with a different change instead.] I believe slightly different tweaks can also result in a version that works for geoo's solution but not Nepster's.  Then again this v7 v8 may enable new solutions as well, I guess we'll see.   No time limit is given in the interest of determining whether one is really necessary, but again, the intended solution needs no more than 3 minutes (with much margin to spare).

====================

And as for Brickout, the "E" version intended for community set is going to have to be the final one.  There is really no way to enforce the specifics of my solution over geoo's, because basically geoo's method uses a proper subset of skills in pretty much the same places as my method.  This leaves few options.  And I don't think there's any compelling reason to favor one method over the other anyhow, both are worthy.  (geoo's may be considered slightly more technical but that's really nitpicking, especially from someone like me.)  I'll leave it to him whether to tweak the level to actually make my method impossible (given that his can save one more than required).  At least I have my revenge (so to speak) with version B10 which appears to be successfully enforcing the full original intended solution thus far.

====================

As for "100%-built-by-lixes.txt" and "Top Gear", I'd like to wait until the elimination decisions have been sorted out before working on prettifying them or whatever it is that needs to be done with those.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:24:51 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 04:10:45 PM »
Okay, got me curious on "You Only Get One Bash At It" (though I wish I hadn't read the spoiler text, oh well).  I've PM a solution over to Proxima.

Close. But your replay made me realise an unfortunate oversight in the level design that really ought to be fixed. I can't find a good way to fix it without uglifying the design -- but here's a tentative v.2 with the least intrusive change, a couple of small steel blocks.

EDIT: ccexplore has sent me a solution to v.2 that is exactly the intended solution. Congratulations!   :thumbsup:

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 08:42:32 AM »
Ok, as I wrote my previous post I started looking for left-to-right solutions, and now I also found one (I haven't looked at your spoiler text yet as I wanted to exhaust the left-to-right bashing search space first which is a lot smaller and thus less time to spend on, which I still haven't finished yet as I stumbled across this solution on the way and am gonna wait for a comment first).
If it's this (or tbh any left-to-right bashing solution really), I'm gonna be so pissed off for wasting hours, I only vaguely remember your comment on my first solution but it made me assume that your solution must be right-to-left (probably not by your fault), so I ceased looking for left-to-right solutions. Please tell me this is not the solution (I somehow have the hunch it is...) Though if it is I'm at least going to understand why you said your solution isn't harder than the first one I found, because I believe any right-to-left solution would be way harder now considering how long I've been looking in that department; and maybe it could be moved a few positions back in Hopeless. Eh before I speculate and think about what if I should wait for the answer.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 02:35:28 PM »
That is also an unnecessarily complicated way to do it  :P

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 06:15:52 PM »
Here is a solution to Won't get fooled again V8. As it saves 97, I doubt that it is the intended one.
@ccx: As you mentioned, my previous solution doesn't need the obscure trick. In fact I planned to stop the miner with the spare skill and was surprised when I didn't need to do this.

Laser Deathroom 3 -- I can't remember the solutions to the Laser Deathrooms, but I agree that perhaps we don't need all three.
At least my solution had similarities to the one for Laser Deathroom 1. So it might be possible to turn Laser Deathroom 3 into a challenge for Laser Deathroom 1 ("use only 8 builders") and mention this in the hints?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 08:50:43 PM »
That is also an unnecessarily complicated way to do it  :P

But admittedly quite impressive. 8)

Here is a solution to Won't get fooled again V8. As it saves 97, I doubt that it is the intended one.

Wow yeah, massive backroute all the way through v1 that all of us had managed to overlook so far until now. :XD: Thanks for finding it though, how embarrassing if the community set releases the level with that, especially if I were to elevate geoo's solution as the intended one.  It can certainly be eliminated but I need to think about how to do so subtly, if that's even possible (especially with the version that keeps geoo's solution).

[To be fair, it's still a neat trick even though from my perspective it's a backroute.] 8)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 09:41:52 PM »
Okay, maybe I overreacted slightly.  It's not so bad fixing Nepster's latest backroute, see v9.  (D'oh, it's turning into the new Brickout! :XD:)
[edit: let me make that sawblade wider actually, just in case...]
[edit2: done, level re-attached]

If anyone manages to still get Nepster's backroute to work with that specific change, you can be sure that the placement of the added sawblade will be tweaked accordingly to block it.  But please do report such successful attempts anyway--I'm trying to keep the sawblade placement from looking too intimidating, and therefore am exploring what kind of placement I can get away with while still preventing Nepster's backroute.

As for the community-set version, this new addition does affect geoo's solution as seen in v6, but I believe it's possible to tweak that solution to avoid (ie. no pixel precision needed) the issue caused by the latest addition.  But more testing is probably needed on that front.  I'll look into it at a later time.

[edit: I've now decided that a 3-minute time limit is also necessary.  For now this will be the only change for v10 so there's no need to download the new version (which I haven't bothered attaching), just play v9 with the time limit in mind]

[edit: superceded by additional changes in v10 that goes beyond time limit.  Please redownload new level file here]

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 05:41:32 PM »
one thing about the # of levels; since I voted for less levels, I will be okay if you decide to forget about all the new levels I made recently. Since I started making them after you decided to finish the game anyway it was sort of unfair of me to dump a bunch of new levels on you while doing this. I just want to reiterate again, any of these [if accepted] should go as replacements for my older levels. Absolute Zero for example can replace Three days of the condor. Also, I'm surprised how difficult you rated that one; I would say Eye of the needle is harder but maybe I don't know.
 
as to the comment on Escape the Pit; you said it seems like the blocks are floating arbitrarily or something but aren't most levels like that? at least levels where a block *has* to float for puzzle reasons. In any case, you can gladly redecorate any of my levels if you want.

for Top Gear, my opinion is go back to "Catch and Release"-- I like clues in the title and this one certainly doesn't make the level obvious.

I might change Narbacular Drop to Sand/Beach terrain.

I changed the decoration of Fearful Symmetry a little. I expect now that you will replace the old Fearful Symmetry with this.

I noticed a minor glitch? in the editor. [But I think we already knew about this one?] the bounding boxes for acid object warp across from the bottom of the screen to the top when I do NOT have verticle warp enabled but horizontal warp is enabled.

I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.

more levels to scrap:
That Pesky Gap [already have levels with these techniques]

Also; I'm still editing the spreadsheet with comments and my hints

and one other funny thing; Now that I think back, your alteration to Over the Hump is actually close to what I originally intended for that level. When i was making it I got frustrated with it so I went with something much easier. So I'm glad it's the way it is now  :thumbsup:
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 06:09:26 PM »
for Top Gear, my opinion is go back to "Catch and Release"-- I like clues in the title and this one certainly doesn't make the level obvious.

"Catch and Release" certainly was the original title when I first came up with the level idea, but changing it back now to that would also mean redoing the upper portion of the level taking out the laser-words (which also have backroute prevention purposes if I recall, though perhaps other means are possible for that).  IIRC the current name was inspired by the sawblades (which for some reason I associated with gears at the time) I had to add to address certain backroutes.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2014, 11:29:51 AM »
No time limit is given in the interest of determining whether one is really necessary, but again, the intended solution needs no more than 3 minutes (with much margin to spare).

I've decided that a time limit is necessary for Won't Get Fooled Again.  Even on v9 there is still a potential backroute solution, although it is likely to be very annoying to execute (likely requiring a lot of spawn rate tweaking), bad enough that I don't want to bother myself even though it's in my interest to understand all backroutes.  While strictly speaking there are ways to eliminate the potential backroute without a time limit, I think I'm happier for now with using the time limit to eliminate.  This kind of backroute solution needs a long "waiting period" anyway during its execution, so a suitable time limit should make it fairly clear that the backroute won't work out well before the player has gotten all the execution details working (as time would be up before the solution has gotten past the necessary waiting period).

Since it's just a time limit change, for now I'm not going to release a new level file just for that, but I probably should update the post with the v9 attachment to mention the new v10 time limit which is 3 minutes. [edit: v10 now has an actual change besides the time limit, so you should download the new level file for it]

==============

On that note, if you are finding potential solutions that you can't execute but think may be possible, please feel free to let me know anyway, using failed replays or whatever other means to help explain the solution.  Even if they turn out to be unworkable, often it is better to make the level more explicitly eliminate them than leaving the player between a rock and a hard place.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2014, 03:32:45 PM »
I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.
If it helps you, here are the three (somewhat similar) solutions I know of.
(and you might wish to check the attachement in you post as it seems to be an empty txt.-file)

On that note, if you are finding potential solutions that you can't execute but think may be possible, please feel free to let me know anyway, ...
I have two approaches that need slight modifications in the game mechanics to work (so no need to worry right now, but if a future release changes them...). As I haven't saved replays after convincing myself that these solutions don't work, here are only the two specific game mechanics in question:
- Bombers walking down a miner tunnel create a hole that turns other lixes around. If this would also hold for bombers walking up...
- Bashers are somewhat slow with their first stroke. If they would be as fast as in Lemmix...
If you are interested I can make replays (at least without the RR-fiddling needed to make them actually work).


Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2014, 07:41:40 PM »
I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.
If it helps you, here are the three (somewhat similar) solutions I know of.
(and you might wish to check the attachement in you post as it seems to be an empty txt.-file)

 :-\ this is happening a lot to me recently.. Well anyway, my fix would only have prevented one of your backroutes. And I think it's easier for me just to tell geoo what to change: simply remove the lower left steel block on the upper portion.
One of your solutions was correct!  :thumbsup:
Unfortunately the other backroute, the only way I know how to fix it easily (without making it a lot more obvious what to do at the moment); one-way walls.
Block/miner turning is kind of interesting though... still I believe this solution is easier than the intended. I'm not sure how many (if any) levels in the community pack use this (ISteve's) trick.

In other news I've recently got ideas for lots of new levels but I'm probably going to save most or all of them for the next lix project...

also; Nepster redid "Escape the Pit" which he may upload if he wants to. Also if you'd like to change the title you may. I just thought of this: "The Pit of Despair." [sort of from the movie Princess Bride]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2014, 08:19:10 PM »
Here the remake of "Escape the Pit" that möbius mentioned.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2014, 10:02:30 PM »
If you are interested I can make replays (at least without the RR-fiddling needed to make them actually work).

Sure, let me see them.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 12:13:00 AM »
I assume that Escape the Pit (or Pit of Despair?) is supposed to be easy but I attached my replay saving skills just in case.

now I'm also thinking I should really not just abandon so many of my earlier lix levels to the community set and make them better... except there won't be room, unless I change my vote and go for more levels... I think I'd rather keep the smaller set and save these for another community set still.
In my spreadsheet I will mark levels I am willing to change to get into this set but will still mark them as also ok with scrapping.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 12:22:49 AM »
I've decided that for Won't Get Fooled Again, the 3-minute time limit might not be enough to block the super-annoying-to-execute-if-even-possible backroute I'm worried about.  More to the point while the time limit should block one variation of the backroute, I think other variations still exist where it is impossible for a human to confidently say whether the variation is theoretically possible solution but too hard to execute, vs actually impossible.  So after some deliberation, I've settled on the following change instead--same terrain but I double-up one particular hazard (you'll readily see it so no worries about it being hidden surprise).  Unless I overlooked something, with this change the backroute I'm worried about should only save 92/100 maximum (and you don't need to successfully execute the potential solution to work out that number), one short of the requirement.

So presenting Won't Get Fooled Again v10 (since I never released the 3-minute version as a separate level file, I'll make this new change the official v10 level file).  I've removed the time limit for now since it's probably not needed with this change (but feel free to prove me wrong of course).

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 05:52:55 PM »
a backroute fix for A Fearful Symmetry [new]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2014, 07:18:40 PM »
If you are interested I can make replays (at least without the RR-fiddling needed to make them actually work).

Sure, let me see them.
Finally got around to make them (using v10). The additional trap removes one of the approaches (even if the game mechanics were different). I added it nevertheless.

I assume that Escape the Pit (or Pit of Despair?) is supposed to be easy but I attached my replay saving skills just in case.
That's precisely the solution I figured was intended in your original design. As for the saved skills: With the given skill set and 29/30 requirement, the second bomber and blocker are essentially useless. Ignoring these you have one floater spare, which isn't so much. And I am fine with either of the titles.

a backroute fix for A Fearful Symmetry [new]
Attached a solution. Note that your design is not symmetric: My approach for the left-hand side doesn't work for the right-hand side (because the blue block at the bottom is slightly lower).


Finally one remark @geoo: Perhaps you can update "Off the Rails" to use the same terrain as "Derailed Level"?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2014, 12:58:31 AM »
Finally got around to make them (using v10). The additional trap removes one of the approaches (even if the game mechanics were different). I added it nevertheless.

Thanks!  Seeing solutions like these and geoo's is making me consider more and more to actually open up the level for multiple solutions for the community version, 8) although I suppose right now the set isn't exactly lacking of easier levels so I dunno.

Anyway, here's Won't Get Fooled Again v11.  I can actually just bump up the save requirement instead to take care of things (in its current setup things happen to work out so well for the intended solution that the margin for the save requirement might be somewhat superfluous), but here's what I can do if the save requirement is to be kept as is.  I also have an additional comment below, which is in spoilers because it unavoidably reveals something about the intended solution (though not much, yet at the same time any info may be counterproductive for exploration of potential backroutes):

Quote from: highlight to read
Your latest failed backroute is actually getting close to the solution concept, enough to actually make me wonder about allowing it.  But it's both simpler in certain details and also clearly more fiddly to make successful, so I think ultimately better off blocking out that route.

[EDIT: sorry, let me take a little more time to think about whether I even need steel there.  Level will be re-uploaded hopefully soon]

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2014, 06:47:18 AM »
Excuse the delay, but Won't Get Fooled Again v11 attached here.  Of course the steel is needed there, :-[ clearly I needed more sleep or something.

(Oh, and thanks Matt for providing the only 8x8 steel currently available!)

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2014, 06:59:19 PM »
backroute fixes to Lix who Japed and Every which way but loose.
also attempt fix to Picard Maneuver
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2014, 09:46:44 PM »
1. here's the spreadsheet updated with all my hints. I can't think of any for the remaining levels I didn't mention yet. I might later but don't count on it. If you would like to add your own hints you may.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2014, 01:39:24 AM »
I've altered Lix who Japed yet again because before there were supposed to be two major solutions. One however requires a more obscure trick and this is the one that seemed to be found more readily so I've (hopefully) made it so only the other one is available.

there is one skill that is not needed.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2014, 01:40:27 AM »
Ok, a few notes, this doesn't address everything mentioned in this thread by far, I'll comment more at some point.
First off, looking at the poll results, and with the announcement of Project Capybara meaning that not all levels that don't fit in here have to be scrapped, I'm now confident in picking 240 levels as a total. It also means that rather than leaving out the not so good levels, I can also consider diversity in my picks.
Note that I'll probably want to go down to 236 or 237 so I can add a few levels to the Simple rating to smoothen the difficulty curve.

The following are pairs of levels that are kinda similar. I would want to move on of them each over to Project Capybara, but only if there's guarantee that they really will be used there because I don't want to see them scrapped (with maybe the exception of "When the Levee Breaks"/"Castles in the Sky").
Either "Absolute Zero" or "Eye of the Needle". I think knowing the solution to one of them makes finding the solution to the second significantly easier. I think "Absolute Zero" is harder so I'd pick that one to keep.
Either "Don't catch me if you can" or "Top Gear". Both are built around a similar main trick, they are a bit more different than the previous pair though, so I'm not 100% confident here. NaOH said "Top Gear" seemed too easy for Hopeless, so I'd keep "Don't Catch me".
Either "Over the Hump" or "Lixes in Motion". I'd probably roll a die here for the decision.
Either "When the Levee Breaks" or "Castles in the Sky". Two execution levels of similar difficulty, so I only want one of them. Inclined to keep "Castles in the Sky" for author diversity even though I find it a bit more annoying than the other one, but I'm not sure here.
"Dances with Lixes" (if I can't enforce my solution, I will ponder this), "100% Built by Lixes" and "Ascending and Descending" are all very similar in spirit, and I'd only want to keep two of them. "Ascending" is in Hopeless, "100% Built" is by ccx which is especially a reason against moving if I already move "Top Gear", but difficulty-wise the level being close to "Ascending" might be a reason in favour. I don't know. EDIT: Here's yet another version of "Dances with Lixes" which I think enforces my solution? Not 100% sure though. Wonder if adding a blocker to ease execution would introduce backroutes as well. Please check out this version and tell me what you think.

More levels that I don't want to see scrapped but rather appear in Project Capybara:
Heavenly Skies, The Giant Mushroom - So I don't have to worry about prettifying it for now.
A fearful symmetry - Now there are two different levels of that name. The second got submitted really late, the first needs a rename. I'd just move both to Project Capybara to make things simpler for myself.

Levels that I will very likely move out, in part by request, and I don't insist on them ending up in Project Capybara:
Confusing Fractals
Snake
Wrong Way
A Lix on the Edge!
Play Ball!
Diggin' The Air
Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo
It's All Uphill From Here
Leap of the Locust

Levels that I will keep:
Tribute to Flagpole Sitting: Except for the looks, it's completely different from Minimalism, and very open-ended.
Fear of Heights: I think it's a cool very basic puzzle.
Soaring, Bulldozer: Again, a diversity thing as these are pretty unique.

I'm inclined to keep Three Days of the Condor as it uses a trick that is needed a lot later, and I'm not sure whether a player would stumble across it by accident.

Other comments:
I agree that "Finale" could maybe be moved down to Vicious, I had a lot of trouble with it the first time around, but I had another look today and solved it in less than 5 minutes without remembering any details about how I'd done it before. If, due to possibly moving two levels out from Hopeless (see above) Hopeless falls short one or two levels, maybe "Empty Space" could be moved up instead? And I also have finally made another level that I've been wanting to make for ages, but at some point I thought it was infeasible but now with a few changes I got it to work. It's supposed to be late Hopeless difficulty-wise, but hard to judge for me. If people like it and there turns out to be a shortage of Hopeless-worthy levels, I might consider including it, though otherwise it's a pretty late submission for that even if it's been in the workings since very early on, and there are some subtleties involved in the solution. Level is attached, feedback welcome.

Lix Cannon: As I see it, to release the left crowd all the way to the right, you have to bash to the right under the steel, but high enough so the basher stops on his own. This means you have to bash right into the steel which still removes some terrain so everyone can walk to the right. Is this intended? It's somewhat strange basher behaviour, and might not work in future (though I think it will if the steel cancelling physics will be implemented the way I suggested to Simon).

I'm in support of giving 10 of each to "Escape the Pit" as well. If I recall mobius was ok with that, Nepster you too (I'd use your remade version)? I'll also change the skill set to some other early levels so the player won't get overwhelmed. I'll announce those when I post a new version. Thanks NaOH for ordering the Simple levels so far; I'll make a few changes but overall like the ordering. I reduced the save requirement to "Downpour" even further to 25 now. I think once you figure the idea execution really just needs getting it right once or twice.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2014, 02:14:12 AM »
Either "Don't catch me if you can" or "Top Gear". Both are built around a similar main trick, they are a bit more different than the previous pair though, so I'm not 100% confident here. NaOH said "Top Gear" seemed too easy for Hopeless, so I'd keep "Don't Catch me".

I don't know how reliable it is to base difficulty assessments on a single person (or maybe two :P) as opposed to a more diverse group of people (though I fully understand it may not be highly feasible to do so here).  That said, I just played "Don't catch me" and I do agree that it pretty much captures the same idea as Top Gear, plus it's unquestionably less annoying from execution standpoint compared to Top Gear (though I suppose reducing number of Lixes for Top Gear might've helped as well).  Thus I'm more than fine with dropping "Top Gear" and keeping "Don't Catch me", though appearance-wise perhaps "Don't" could be jazzed up slightly (not in Top Gear's gaudy manner mind you, but something at least).  In fact with "Don't Catch Me" I'm not sure how relevant it is to even have "Top Gear" included in Project Capybara, but I guess that's up to mobius.  Oh, and I better make sure I don't find any backroutes in "Don't" (nothing so far so probably okay).

[edit: of course the above assumes that there exists other levels where the miner is doing actual mining as well as continuing on a builder bridge, I guess that's the main difference between the two levels conceptually]

"Dances with Lixes" (if I can't enforce my solution, I will ponder this), "100% Built by Lixes" and "Ascending and Descending" are all very similar in spirit, and I'd only want to keep two of them. "Ascending" is in Hopeless, "100% Built" is by ccx which is especially a reason against moving if I already move "Top Gear", but difficulty-wise the level being close to "Ascending" might be a reason in favour. I don't know.

Given the origins of "100% Built by Lixes", it is pretty much the opposite of creative and the other levels are probably more deserving just for that alone.  That said, I do hope that the two main ideas in "100%..." are at least utilized elsewhere in the set.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2014, 02:04:13 PM »
EDIT: Here's yet another version of "Dances with Lixes" which I think enforces my solution? Not 100% sure though. Wonder if adding a blocker to ease execution would introduce backroutes as well. Please check out this version and tell me what you think.

I'm apparently missing geoo/nopales under my images directory so I can't play the level. :XD:  Is that part of 04-04-14 release or something posted separately afterwards?

And I also have finally made another level that I've been wanting to make for ages, but at some point I thought it was infeasible but now with a few changes I got it to work. It's supposed to be late Hopeless difficulty-wise, but hard to judge for me. If people like it and there turns out to be a shortage of Hopeless-worthy levels, I might consider including it, though otherwise it's a pretty late submission for that even if it's been in the workings since very early on, and there are some subtleties involved in the solution. Level is attached, feedback welcome.

Seems like worthy level to me, I enjoyed it at any rate. 8) It never totally stumped me but it's fair to say there are some subtleties involved that took a little time to unravel.  Don't know anything about late Hopeless at the moment so no comment on how the level fits there.  I suppose before any further comments, my attached replay should be reviewed first (it seems pretty intended to me, though if I have time I'll try harder and see if I can find more solutions).

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2014, 11:41:11 PM »
The terrain you're missing for "Dances with Lixes" is linked to in a topic that is linked to in the first post, or more directly here: http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/lix-images-dir-2014-05-28.zip
I'm quite confident now that something of sorts like this will work, so "100% Built by Lixes" and "Ascending and Descending" will probably both stay where they are.

I'm glad you liked the new level; the solution is close to the intended one, but for the sake of hopefully enforcing mine (not sure whether I'd allow your variation for the community pack, feedback welcome) here's a backroute fix.

As for "Top Gear" vs "Don't Catch Me", I don't remember having much trouble with "Top Gear" and I think I rated it high because it uses a fancy trick, but I'm not sure anymore. Either way I feel there are not that many things you can try. They are different enough that it might be ok to keep both, but not too close together. So either "Top Gear" should go in late Vicious, or I put both in the first half of Hopeless as far apart as possible, meaning that one of the two, probably "Don't Catch Me", would end up in mid-Hopeless.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2014, 03:32:14 AM »
EDIT: Here's yet another version of "Dances with Lixes" which I think enforces my solution? Not 100% sure though. Wonder if adding a blocker to ease execution would introduce backroutes as well.

Oh, you have a far bigger problem than a blocker. :evil: Though likely Fortunately easily fixable with more applications of steel. perhaps?  Note that with the leftover skills, even the opening move seen in the replay (same one used  in "100% Built By lixes") is superfluous.

[edit2: 2 more replays for "Dance", at least these are surely much closer to what you have in mind.

It's fair to say this is not meant to be a Hopeless level?  As I probably don't plan on playing anything ranked less than Hopeless, I can't offer any informed opinions on whether it's worth including or not.  I suppose it's a decent non-Hopeless introduction to the particular general idea (that is, once you fix the backroute :P  Though at this level of difficulty, even the backroute's kinda interesting in its own way, maybe). ]

--------------

edit: and Trading 5 replay attached.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2014, 04:54:54 PM »
I finally managed to write some hints for my levels. I had difficulties to find helpful but not too revealing hints, so if you can think of better ones, feel free to replace mine.

Escape the Pit: As this is meant to be an easy level, raising skill numbers sounds reasonable. I just realized that (in my version) going over the right hill is already possible with the reduced skill set :XD:. Maybe even reducing the save requirements to 28/30?

Trading: Another solution. The new version is quite a bit harder than the previous one.

Lix who Japed: Another solutions just for the sake of completeness; it doesn't feel backroutish.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2014, 05:27:42 PM »
Lix who Japed: Another solutions just for the sake of completeness; it doesn't feel backroutish.

It's not quite the intended solution but I'm not sure how much easier/harder it is. I'm surprised people are not finding the intended; it's not tricky to execute and does not seem that difficult to me. It is less "funny" than your solution. Idk how else to word it [no climbing through terrain or anything like that]
EDIT:
Actually I like the first part of your solution and Realize I can both enforce that and remove that backroute part by removing one digger.  :D Attached is the new version.
[this level started out with many more skills and it's slowly being reduced with every backroute fix]

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And just in case if any other of mine or anyone's levels need to be replaced or geoo ends up going with more levels; I've uploaded that new level I made in the other topic for anyone to try with a small backroute fix. I'm not likely to work on "project Capybara" real soon, so I'm alright with that level going here.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2014, 10:30:41 PM »
"Dances with Lixes" surely doesn't belong in Hopeless, though depending on which version I end up picking (enforcing my solution or leaving it more open), it could go anywhere between Cunning and Vicious I guess. I attached a new version that hopefully enforces my solution, I'm not sure whether I'll pick this version for the pack, it'd resolved the clash with the other two levels, which are in the last two ratings however.

Also a new version of "Trading" that hopefully doesn't allow to bypass the outer gadgets in some way anymore. Interesting solutions to this one so far.

Also attached is a prettified version of "Don't Catch Me", no other changes there.

Escape the Pit: As this is meant to be an easy level, raising skill numbers sounds reasonable. I just realized that (in my version) going over the right hill is already possible with the reduced skill set :XD:. Maybe even reducing the save requirements to 28/30?
I was thinking of actually reducing it to 20/30, I mean once you go down to 28, the solutions that work with 20/30 generally can also save 28. I just means players can be a bit more careless with sealing off the gaps at the bottom.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2014, 06:59:17 AM »
Hmm, now that you removed my B/C solutions from v4, I'm not really sure I see any relations between "Dances..." and "100% Built by Lix" anymore?  [Not that it was all that close in v4, but now even less so in v5.]  Perhaps it's just clashing with "Ascending..." (which I haven't really looked at yet)?

Anyway, a bunch of solutions (well, really just 3 minor variations of the same) zipped and attached.

The sawblade placement may be a little "too close for comfort" so to speak, but I guess it's okay in this case since there aren't really any other potential routes to try that would completely avoid that area, so sooner or later the player will have to explore that area and find that the sawblade only prevents building and not mere walking.

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Trading 6 is looking good, no more solutions thus far besides this attached one.  Gained a point or two in terms of worthiness of inclusion for Hopeless.   One thing that I wonder though, do the vertical bars need to be that thick to prevent backroutes?  As it is I have to be pretty careful with placement of diggers, though I guess for Hopeless it's acceptable (and never really a problem for me anyway with the zzz and replay features).

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Prettified Don't Catch Me looks very nice, actually I wasn't expecting decorations in the walls so that was a nice surprise.    I do hope though that the decorations are featured in earlier levels, in ways that make it clear they do not have empty spaces, as their darkest parts can be a little difficult to distinguish at a glance from the black background.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:40:53 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline geoo

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2014, 03:27:43 AM »
The newest version of "Dances with Lixes" doesn't have any resemblance to "100% Built"/"Ascending" -- that was the point of trying to enforce my solution. Actually, now  seeing your solutions makes me like this version even more, it means there are a couple of variations in the same spirit of my intended solution (which is still slightly different, but closest to A). It's possible to save one builder, but the additional builder doesn't add backroutes IMO so I'll leave it.

"Trading" is exactly as intended, there are two positions where you can assign the digger, and I seem to have a success rate of 90% with that, but I made the pillars thinner to make it easier now.

When I compile a beta version of the pack, which version of "Won't get fooled again" should I include? (It can still be changed later.)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2014, 12:17:28 PM »
When I compile a beta version of the pack, which version of "Won't get fooled again" should I include? (It can still be changed later.)

Use attached version.  This retains all backroute/potential-backroute fixes so far, except for one.  That allows for a variation of a solution you found in v6, and left my own solution in as well (given that so far no one has found it).  Replay attached for the solution based on yours.  If you have some other solution that you'd like to be featured here instead, let me know and I'll see what I can do.  The main issue with this solution getting featured here is, as I recall (the replay was originaly done a few weeks ago so slightly rusty memory), some moves require quite a bit of precision to work out correctly.