Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] What skills can't you live without for gold?  (Read 27403 times)

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Offline ccexplore

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[Lemmings 2] What skills can't you live without for gold?
« on: March 26, 2010, 02:03:01 AM »
This is modeled after <a href="indexa75c.html?topic=170.0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Clam Spammer's "skills you can't live without" challenge</a> for Lemmings-1 based games.  Conceptually, you're focusing on minimizing the types of skills used and the number of one individual type of skill.  I've no idea how fruitful this type of challenge will be for Lemmings 2.  Hopefully it will still be fun and interesting.

Definition: The set of "skills you can't live without" on a level is the set of skills that is common to <strong>all <span class="bbc_u">gold</span> solutions</strong> to the level - without using every skill in this set, you can't possibly achieve gold on the level.

So for example, if you find a gold solution that uses only 1 roper, plus some number of builders and other skills, and another gold solution that uses only 1 builder, a few ropers, and a different bunch of other skills, the result for that level would be "1 roper, 1 builder".  Your general approach would be to minimizing the number of <em>types</em> of skills to employ, finding as many disparate combinations of skill-types as you can.  And then to minimize the number of skills used of a particular type, for each skill-type that appears to be common to all gold solutions.

Unlike Clam Spammer's challenge thread, I'm not including totals here, because different levels usually have fairly disparate types of skills, making the total not very meaningful.

I've started things off with a few results that are obvious enough for me to come up with at a glance.

(Note: <em>none</em> means there are no skills that are common to all gold solutions to the level.  <em>no results reported</em> means no one has looked at the level yet to come up with any numbers.)

<span style="font-size: 0.7em;" class="bbc_size"><strong><span class="bbc_u">Classic</span></strong>
1: none
2: 4 builders
3: none
4: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
5: 1 blocker, 1 builder, 5 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger
6: 1 builder
7: 2 builders, 1 digger
8: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger
9: 4 builders, 1 digger
10: 1 climber, 1 builder

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Beach</span></strong>
1: none
2: none
3: none
4: none
5: none
6: none
7: 2 platformers, 2 jumpers
8: none
9: none
10: 1 archer, 1 scooper

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Cavelems</span></strong>
1: none
2: 2 stompers, 3 scoopers
3: none
4: none
5: none
6: none
7: none
8: none
9: 3 platformers
10: 1 fencer, 1 platformer, 1 glue pourer, 1 stomper

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Circus</span></strong>
1: 1 climber, 1 jumper, 1 laser blaster, 1 glue pourer
2: none
3: 4 platformers
4: none
5: 1 platformer
6: 1 bomber
7: none
8: 1 platformer
9: 1 laser blaster, 1 platformer
10: none

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Egyptian</span></strong>
1: 1 digger
2: 1 glue pourer, 2 flamethrowers
3: none
4: 1 twister
5: 2 bashers, 1 stomper, 2 glue pourers
6: none
7: 1 laser blaster
8: 1 stomper, 1 platformer
9: 1 stomper, 1 basher
10: none

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Highland</span></strong>
1: 1 twister
2: none
3: 2 builders
4: 3 throwers
5: none
6: 2 ropers, 2 laser blasters
7: none
8: 1 basher, 1 laser blaster
9: 2 flamethrowers, 2 platformers, 1 attractor
10: none

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Medieval</span></strong>
1: 3 scoopers
2: none
3: none
4: 1 club basher, 1 sand pourer, 1 stacker, 2 glue pourers
5: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 1 club basher
6: 3 twisters, 1 platformer
7: none
8: none
9: none
10: none

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Outdoor</span></strong>
1: none
2: none
3: 1 platformer, 1 flamethrower
4: 1 glue pourer
5: none
6: none
7: none
8: 4 platformers
9: none
10: 1 platformer

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Polar</span></strong>
1: none
2: none
3: 1 roper
4: none
5: 1 roper
6: 1 stomper
7: none
8: 1 exploder
9: none
10: 2 glue pourers

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Shadow</span></strong>
1: <em>no results reported</em>
2: <em>no results reported</em>
3: <em>no results reported</em>
4: <em>no results reported</em>
5: <em>no results reported</em>
6: <em>no results reported</em>
7: <em>no results reported</em>
8: <em>no results reported</em>
9: <em>no results reported</em>
10: <em>no results reported</em>

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Space</span></strong>
1: none
2: 1 platformer
3: 1 platformer, 1 fencer, 1 stomper
4: none
5: 1 roper, 1 bomber
6: 1 filler, 1 shimmier, 1 climber, 1 spearer
7: none
8: 2 laser blasters
9: 1 ropers
10: 1 glue pourer, 1 jumper, 2 bazookas

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Sports</span></strong>
1: 3 flamethrowers, 1 bomber
2: none
3: 2 platformers
4: none
5: 2 stompers
6: 1 roper
7: 1 magno booter, 1 ballooner, 1 laser blaster, 1 platformer
8: none
9: 1 roper
10: 5 archers, 1 roper</span>
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:13:56 AM by Minim »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 02:08:21 AM »
Here's an example of the kind of analysis one might do, using the result of "None" for Polar 2 as an example:

We know from the minimum-skills thread that Polar 2 can be golded with just 1 fencer and 2 flamethrowers, so all other types of skills are optional.

We can make the standard solution not use any fencers by breaking through the floor using 2 flamethrowers on the left side of the snowman.  Details left as exercise to reader (I do have screenshots available on request).

We can also make the standard solution not use any flamethrowers by using fencers for all 3 obstacles, and use a thrower to block off the slope at the level's right side.

Hence the result is 0 fencers, 0 flamethrowers = none.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 07:58:13 PM »
I'm looking at Cavelem and while I can't say I've come up with any earth-shattering solutions, there are definitely at least some interesting ones worth trying, such as golding Cavelem 6 and 7 without ropers.

So I think this challenge can be worth our time.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2010, 01:38:18 AM »
I've had a look at some of the earlier levels from various tribes, and here's what I've got so far:

Classic 1:  2 builders appear to be necessary to reach the exit.

Classic 2:  One of my 7-skill solutions from the fewest skills thread uses just basher and six builders via a crawling route.  The other 7-skill solution uses a climber, four builders, a basher, and a miner.  The basher can be eliminated fairly easily, leaving just the 4 builders.

Classic 3:  Floaters, bombers, blockers, and diggers are clearly not necessary.  Climbers, builders, bashers, and miners can each be eliminated in separate solutions.  The end result is therefore none.

Circus 2:  My two-skill solution from the fewest skills thread uses just a stomper and a basher.  I've got another solution to the level using just a roper, platformer, and pole vaulter, so therefore the result is none.

Highland 1:  1 twister

Highland 2:  The standard solution (or at least the way I usually do it) uses just a runner, a fencer, and several jumpers.  The runner and jumpers are fairly easy to eliminate; the fencer can also be eliminated by making the entire crowd use the "over the top" route.

Space 1:  None -- this should be obvious.

Sports 2:  None --  the two-skill solution uses just a twister and a roper.  The twister can be eliminated easily.  I was also able to eliminate the roper, but with a considerably greater level of difficulty.  The basic idea is to platform from the football to the exit, which by itself is not too hard to do.  The challenge is keeping the crowd trapped until the platform is done, and then freeing them without using a roper.

Beach 1:  None -- another obvious one.

Outdoor 1:  None -- It isn't very hard to eliminate that twister.

Outdoor 2:  None -- the one-skill solution uses just a laser blaster, and there's also the stacker+filler solution.

Egyptian 1:  1 digger is unavoidable.  Everything else can be eliminated pretty easily.

Medieval 1:  You're going to need 3 scoopers because they're the only available ground-removing skill available.  Everything else can be avoided pretty easily.

Medieval 2:  A rather obvious solution uses only twisters and sand pourers.  The twisters can easily be replaced with other digging skills, and I have successfully eliminated the sand pourer by using a series of fillers and platformers to get over the steel block that protrudes up near the middle of the level.  This one is therefore another none.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2010, 06:57:32 AM »
I've completed the section for Cavelem.  I think for most levels it's obvious enough not to require much explanations, especially after you first look at the minimal-skills solutions.  Here're some quick analysis for a couple, and I have a spoiler section for additional info on them.

Cavelem 6, 7: roperless solutions are possible
Cavelem 8:  minimal-skills solution used stackers, rollers, fencers, bombers, and a jumper that can easily be substituted with a ballooner.  Rollers are replacable with stackers+jumpers.

This leaves solutions using no bombers, and separate solutions using no fencers.  Both are achievable using variations of the standard solution, if you take advantage of a detail in the terrain, best explained by an attached screenshot.

So we're left with just the 1 stacker from the minimal-skills solution.  I'm not certain, but I doubt you can make the fling solution work without the stacker to help compress the crowd.  [edit: whoops!  can't believe I miss this :-[, but it's rather easy to set up a way to trap the crowd at the start using just a bomber and a fencer.  So stackers are not needed, leaving a final result of "none"]

Cavelem 9:  minimal-skills solution uses 1 parachuter and 4 platformers for setting the path.  You can use either hang glider or jetpacker to get the hero over the mushroom, and you can use either basher or jetpacker+stomper to remove the mushroom.  Standard solution doesn't require the parachuter because you can send your hero down using jetpackers and good fanning.

So we're left with platformers.  You can modify the minimal-skills solution to not platform over the gap at the bottom, instead bashing and stomping from above.  And the route uses by the standard solution does not appear to allow for anything with only 2 platformers.  So we're left with 3 platformers.

Cavelem 10:  there are two basic ways to solve the level.  One can leave jumpers and floaters unused, the other can leave attractors and shimmiers unused.  Beyond those, I didn't find anything that lets me get away with not using one of the 4 skills listed in the results.

Quote
Cavelem 6 hint:  You can create a path to the exit from where the lemmings land from the entrance, by doing builder, glue pourer, fencer, builder, glue pourer.  You can get the crowd out of the starting pit by either 5 fillers and then lower the left edge a little more with stompers.  Or you can just use a single roper and then you forgo any use of stompers.

Cavelem 7 hint:  you'll end up using many of the jumpers to get some lemmings ahead of others.  In particular, I start off with 4 jumpers just to increase the distance between 1st and 2nd lemmings out.  The boogeyman trap's trigger can be covered up with just one brick from the stacker, besides scooping.  My roperless solution gets up to the exit above the entrance, using a single platformer + 3 bricks from a stacker (using a different lemming).

Cavelem 8 hint:  the screenshot shows how inserting a stacker brick there can get you up two pixel-sized "holes" in the terrain.  At that higher elevatation, it's possible to break through with just a single bomber, or separately using 3 fencers.

Cavelem 10 hint:  For the one that uses attractors and shimmiers, the attractor isolate a hero lemming, who will at some point fence under the fossil bones, and then shimmy across its underbelly.  Alternatively, for the other solution that uses floaters and jumpers, the floater is to create separation between 1st and 2nd lemming so 1st lemming can glue-pour in time to avoid losing 2nd lemming, and so no attractors needed.  Then instead of fencing to go underneath the fossil bones, you get a lemming to jump up to it, and then later jump up onto each of the 3 mushrooms below to get over them.  As he finishes the rest of the path to the exit, the crowd will fence under fossil bones to release themselves.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2010, 06:57:55 AM »
Yeah, I had thought about this kind of challenge as well already, as it seems to next most intuitive after the minimum skills (apart from minimum time, but that was already predictably fiddly last time for L1).

I'll try not to get too distracted by these thread for the next two days considering an upcoming exam...
Though like last time, let's start with some Outdoor levels (updates hopefully later than sooner).

Outdoor 3: 1 platformer (the gap at the end), 1 flame thrower (3 obstacles, only 2 platformers).

Outdoor 4: 1 glue pourer, the archers seem to be barely too short for the roper to reach, I'm not entirely sure though.

Outdoor 5: Should be none using a ballooner route, but the time limit makes this hell to execute, so not confirmed yet.

Outdoor 6: none - use platformers as substitute for ropers

Outdoor 7: none - the 5 skill route uses 1 attractor, 1 jumper/shimmier, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 bazooka. Bazooka can be replaced by 2 stackers. Bomber can be replaced by a bazooka and some more of them to get through the wall before the exit. Direct route bombing from the top to the bottom works without attractor, floater.

Outdoor 8: Evidently it's only platformers, question is how many. I concieved a solution using only 3 of them, sadly it runs out of time, so no result yet.

Outdoor 9: none - builders from the crawling route can be substituted for bashers, sufficient builders/archers to substitute the roper in the standard route, archers can be circumvented in the stardard route by firing the roper quickly enough for crowd control, bashers are interchangable.

Outdoor 10: 1 platformer - I've been trying various flinging routes, but I can't seem to eliminate the platformer.
Notes to avoid the stomper:
Quote
If you have the runner jump at the position shown, he'll land on a 1-pixel gap within the second floating piece of terrain, from where you can fence so the three gaps can be bridge with two platformers. Use the hopper on the first lemming to get sufficient time to builder the longer platform, and the bomber on the slope at the bottom to have everyone turn around.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2010, 08:18:19 PM »
I had a look at most of Circus last night, and here's what I came up with:

Circus 1:  There's not much room for deviation from the standard solution, so this is equivalent to the 4-skill solution from the Minimum Skills thread:  1 climber, 1 jumper, 1 laser blaster, and 1 glue pourer.

Circus 3:  You need to use 4 platformers to reach the exit.  Crowd control can be done several different ways, so no other skills are common to all solutions.

Circus 4:  The level can be done with twisters only, and so the question comes down to whether or not the level can be done without any of them.  At first glance, it looks like a twister is needed to get up the steep slope below the exit, but I have confirmed that it is, in fact, not necessary.  (See the hint below)  So the end result here is none.

Circus 5:  Bashers, stackers, and scoopers can all be eliminated in separate solutions, but 2 platformers are needed to reach the exit.

Circus 6:  My four-skill solution from the minimum skills thread uses just a fencer, a glue pourer, and two bombers.  The fencer pretty easy to eliminate, as you can also use a bomber or glue pourer to free everyone.  I also eliminated the glue pourer (see hints below).  This leaves just the 2 bombers, and I haven't found a way to do the level with less than two of them.

Circus 7:  This was a fun one that surprisingly comes down to none.  The climber can be eliminated by using a bazooka to blast someone over the first wall.  Geoo's five-skill solution to the level avoids bazookas and fillers.  A variant of that solution involves giving the stomper a bazooka right before he breaks through; the resulting blast gives everyone a relatively low place to fall from, and the remaining gaps can be filled with fillers, eliminating ropers.  Finally, another variant eliminates the stomper by using bazookas to get the climber down to the bottom of the level, and then using ropers to create a safe path for the crowd down the left side of the level.

Circus 8:  Bashers are eliminated by using the crawling route and using a stomper + scooper to tackle the first wall.  Stompers are easily avoided in the standard solution.  I don't see the point of the hoppers in the level, but they can be used in place of jumpers to stop the scooper when setting up the crawling route.  Also, the crawling route can be set up using a basher instead of a scooper, so scoopers can be eliminated.  1 platformer is still required in the standard solution, and it can't be eliminated because the crawling route also uses platformers.

Circus 9: 1 laser blaster, 1 platformer, and 1 magic carpet -- the laser blaster is needed to free the crowd, and it appears that a magic carpet is needed to get to a place where you can do so.  Finally, a platformer is needed to reach the exit.

Circus 10:  Jumpers, club bashers, stackers, and stompers are easily avoided.  Geoo's crawling route avoids pole vaulters, and it can be adjusted to avoid scoopers, as well.  Fillers, however, are quite challenging -- it appears that one is necessary when using geoo's crawling route, and as far as I can tell, there aren't quite enough skills to take the regular route without fillers.  So to eliminate fillers, I ended up taking a completly different approach.  I've outlined the basic principle of this approach in the hints section below, and I've also included a more detailed solution below that.  The only thing left is platformers, and I can get it down to 1 platformer by using the regular route.

Quote from: hints
Circus 4:  Use flame throwers so that the lemmings will just barely pass under the pesky steel block.  Then use a fencer to get up to the floor above and to the right.  You can stop him from going too far to the right by making him bash air after he's broken through to the floor above.

Circus 6:  One bomber clears the first wall, and a second bomber gets down to the floor below with the cannon.  Most of the lemmings get stuck in the pit; fence to the right to get out of it.  The lemmings (even those bouncing on the trampoline) will all end up on the bottom floor, where the lower cannon is located, except that you need one lemming to go back to the upper cannon (make him a climber).  That lemming uses the upper cannon to get to the exit and bombs on the floor so that the lemmings below can get up to the exit using the lower cannon.

Circus 10:  The general idea is to crawl up the right side of the level, but in order to do this, you need to have one lemming take the regular route and bash out an opening so that the others don't crawl off the top of the screen.  See the spoiler below for the detailed solution.

Quote from: Circus 10 no fillers -- detailed solution
The first lemming stomps a couple of steps after dropping out of the hatch.  When he finishes, you'll end up with a whole bunch of lemmings bunched together.  Make one of them jump so that he is a short distance ahead of the others, and then make one of the others club bash through one of the three pedestals.  Make him stop by jumping him after he takes one stroke.  One lemming should be walking to the left, while the others are trapped.  Make one lemming scoop at the wall on the right; he needs to jump at an exact moment mid-scoop so that there is a small step that the lemmings walk up at the right edge of his tunnel.  From this step, make a lemming platform to the left, and then make him jump just before he lays the second brick.  The lemmings will start to crawl, but they won't get very far because they will reach a small gap between the platform brick and the top of the scooper's tunnel.

Now go over to the leader, who should be walking toward the left side of the level.  He has to make his way to the top of the level, which will require a pole vaulter, a platformer, and several jumpers.  When he gets to the right side of the level, make him a scooper so that when he falls, he ends up on top of the pedestal to the left of the exit (this will keep him from splatting).  Jump over the exit and club bash through the wall to the right.  Stop him after two or three strokes by jumping and he will make his way to the exit.

Finally, make one lemming from the crowd a stacker the instant that he stops crawling and starts walking on the brick.  If done properly, the stacker's brick will make everyone crawl up to the exit, via the tunnel that the leader club bashed earlier.

EDIT:  Added Circus 10.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 01:29:23 AM »
Thanks, I've updated the table with your Circus results.  Although I do have one quick question regarding Circus 8:

I don't see the point of the hoppers in the level, but they can be used in place of jumpers to stop the scooper when setting up the crawling route.

Keep in mind that the game doesn't let you assign hopper or shimmier to a lemming if the ceiling is too low, something I found out when I did Egyptian 10 with ClamSpammer's hopper glitch.  I haven't tried out Circus 8 in detail, but can you confirm the above statement (or possibly find a different skill to substitute jumper for)?

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 03:00:02 AM »
Thanks, I've updated the table with your Circus results.  Although I do have one quick question regarding Circus 8:

Keep in mind that the game doesn't let you assign hopper or shimmier to a lemming if the ceiling is too low, something I found out when I did Egyptian 10 with ClamSpammer's hopper glitch.  I haven't tried out Circus 8 in detail, but can you confirm the above statement (or possibly find a different skill to substitute jumper for)?

I tested it out again, and I have confirmed that this does work.  The scooper's tunnel is much wider than that of a basher or miner, so the ceiling is high enough to allow you to make him a hopper.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, because I've also confirmed that the regular solution can be done jumper-free by using hoppers and the extra platformer in the three places where the leader has to cross a gap.  The hopper's hop is just barely long enough to span the gaps.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 10:37:02 AM »
Outdoor 4: 1 glue pourer, the archers seem to be barely too short for the roper to reach, I'm not entirely sure though.

Outdoor 5: Should be none using a ballooner route, but the time limit makes this hell to execute, so not confirmed yet.

I've had a look at those.  I agree with your assessment for Outdoor 4 after some tries.  Anyone who claims to have a no-glue-pourer route will have to provide me with enough details for me to successfully reproduce their solution before I'll accept the result.

I've also saved you the trouble with Outdoor 5, with a no-roper route that requires everyone to balloon at some point.  While no Friday's walk in the park :P, it actually isn't too bad to execute--perhaps I've minimized the amount of ballooning a bit more than you do:

Quote
It is possible to get lemmings to crawl up the middle of the 3 "mushroom stalks", using just 2 stacker bricks along the bottom side of the island the stalk's standing on, as well as an archer arrow at the left edge of the lestmost mushroom to prevent anyone falling back down that way.  Then the only ballooning you need can be done over a relatively wide and obstruction-free area, such that you can easily get like 7 or 8 balloons going at the same time without too much trouble steering them simultaneously.  The attached screenshots show the details.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2010, 02:23:33 AM »
Sports 10 caught my attention last night, and it turned out to be a fairly interesting level for this challenge.

First, as I reported in the "fewest types of skills" thread, you can gold the level using just archers, jumpers and ropers, eliminating the runner commonly used.  Not the biggest surprise there (though it's not as quite obvious as it sounds).

Now minimizing each individual skill type through separate solutions:

jumper:  the 11- and 12-skills crawling solutions use jumpers in just 2 places (the crawling avoids the usual 3).  Fortunately it turns out you can eliminate both using the roller and the hopper.  It's a little tricky though, I've included some screenshots and hints.

roper:  the standard solution uses 2 ropers, but it turns out one of them you can substitute with 4 spearers+1 archer.  You don't have enough skills left over to eliminate the other roper, so the end result is 1 roper.

archer:  the 11- and 12-skills crawling solutions use 6 archers.  I've reviewed them and the easiest, possibly only one I can eliminate is the final archer used before the roping to the exit platform.  The function of that arrow can be replaced with a system of spears, though the setup is not what you might expect.  I don't believe you can eliminate the arrow that's used together with the roper for crawling (at least not in a useful way that still lets you also eliminate the final archer) due to the angle of the spear.  So long story short, looks like the end result is 5 archers.

So the final result for Sports 10 is 5 archers, 1 roper.

Quote from: hints/spoilers
No jumpers:  to get over the first giant jump with a roller, you have to assign the hero lemming roller at a pixel-precise location (screenshot A), otherwise the roller will not make it.  And because you can't have hero jumped onto the arrows he fired to get him to go to the right, you need to use a vertical arrow instead.  Follow screenshots B and C for where and how to fire that arrow.  Screenshot D shows the desired result, where the arrow ended up vertical at the very left edge of the terrain below.

For the second gap you normally jump over, you will use a hopper, but unfortunately, you can't just hop over it directly.  Instead, you'll help out the hopper with an arrow to shorten the width of the gap.  See screenshots E and F for what you're aiming to do.  Once the hopper gets over, you'll proceed to fire 2 arrows to span the gap as per usual business.  However, because you used the hopper (as opposed to the fast runner), there's a chance that the crowd may catch up before the 2nd of those 2 arrows are ready.  Ideally, you should have it like in screenshot G, where the ends of the first gap-spanning arrow and the hopper-helping arrow, their ends meet, preventing the crowd from falling off the gap.  If the arrows didn't work out like that, your best bet is to stall the crowd by assigning them spearers and pole vaulters.

Finish the rest of the level via the crawling route solution.

1 roper:  the screenshots show exactly how to replace the lower roper with 4 spearers and 1 archer.  This is based on the standard (ie. non-crawling) solution.

5 archers:  ideally, we just throw the spears while standing at that sloping portion of the terrain below the exit platform, and the spears will seal off the drop at the left.  But I've failed to find any positions where the thrown spears end up at the correct location and angles to achieve that.  So instead we have a more exotic solution.

Go through the crawling solution but stop once you fired the rope.  Now have 2 left-going lemmings spear at the locations shown in screenshots A and B.  The spears will create a catch (see screenshots C, D) to allow lemmings to fall safely onto it from the top.  Now fire the arrow at the rope to trigger crawling.  Once you have lemmings land on the spears and turn around at the wall, assign one hopper just when the lemming has turned around.  This will trigger ClamSpammer's hopper glitch, allowing the lemming to get up the wall.  Once he has gotten to the height shown in screenshot D, assign him spearer, and when he finishes throwing the spear and can be assigned another skill, immediately assign him spearer again (ie. don't let him fall off the wall!).  These 2 spears, throw at the right height near the gap, will seal off the gap in question as desired.

Offline geoo

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2010, 04:26:06 PM »
Ah, using crawling for Outdoor 5 is a nice idea.
My attempt was indeed more troublesome, trying to stomp away most of the mushroom and then guiding everyone all the way up.

Updated my previous post with a few more Outdoor results.

The archer elimination on Sports 10 is nice; still haven't got around to checking Cavelem.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2010, 03:40:56 AM »
Circus 6:  My four-skill solution from the minimum skills thread uses just a fencer, a glue pourer, and two bombers.  The fencer pretty easy to eliminate, as you can also use a bomber or glue pourer to free everyone.  I also eliminated the glue pourer (see hints below).  This leaves just the 2 bombers, and I haven't found a way to do the level with less than two of them.

(Very good job by the way with Circus, especially Circus 10.)

A light bulb went on, and I figured out how to do Circus 6 with 1 bomber:

Quote from: hint
Think about what happens in Lemmings 2 if a walker lemming falls into a 1-pixel-wide pit.  What would the physics of crawling make it do?

Quote from: spoiler
Climb (or jump) and bomb to get to the upper cannon (make sure the bombing happens at a location that enables you to later use the upper cannon to send everyone over to the exit platform).  Glue-pour twice to cover up the trampoline completely, then for the 3rd glue-pour, you need to do it at a position such that the stream of glue starts 2 pixels away from the left wall of the pit with the trampoline (in other words, there's 1 column of empty pixels between the pixels of the pit's left wall, and where the glue lands).  See screenshot A for exact position if still not clear.  This will create a 1-pixel-wide pit, which by the physics of crawling, will have the effect that whichever side a lemmings fall into the pit from, they will crawl out of the pit on that side (see screenshot B).  This means everyone will be able to use the upper cannon.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 06:13:20 AM »
I've got some work done on the first half of Beach.

Beach 2:  The 3-skill solution from the minimum skills thread uses just a jet pack, a roper, and a laser blaster.  In addition, I have completed the level using just bashers and glue pourers.  The combination of these solutions yields a result of none.

Beach 3:  The four-skill solution to this level uses an archer, two hang gliders, and a laser blaster.  The archer can be avoided by using a bomber next to the steel (this just barely works, as the bomber is pixels away from being flung off the top of the screen).  In addition, the two hang gliders can also be avoided (see hints).  But it looks like 1 laser blaster is unavoidable.

Beach 4:  There are two four-skill solutions that I know of to this one.  One uses two jumpers, a canoer, and a laser blaster, and the other uses a jumper, a runner, a canoer, and a laser blaster (and some good timing getting the runner to grab onto the chain).  These solutions have 1 jumper, 1 canoer, and 1 laser blaster in common, and I haven't found any ways of eliminating any of them.

Beach 5:  The 3-skill solution here uses just a fencer, a builder, and a glue pourer.  The glue pourer is easily eliminated by using a stomper and 3 builders in the end.  I've also done the ending with an archer and several glue pourers, eliminating the builder.  Finally, the fencer is eliminated by stomping 2x at the beginning and then using the remaining skills to get up to the exit.  So the result here is none.

Quote from: Hints
Beach 3 No Hang Gliders:  Start the level as usual by using an archer to restrain the crowd and a canoer to get one lemming over the water.  Instead of making him a hang glider before he falls, make him an archer and fire it to the bottom of the can on the right.  As soon as he starts walking again, make him a diver before he falls.  He will end up falling in the water, so give him another canoe to get out.  When he turns around at the top of the slope, make him jump up to the next slope.  Now glue pour from the arrow you fired earlier.  The glue should go far enough so that you can jump over the beach ball.  The rest should be obvious.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings 2: What skills can't you live without for gold?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2010, 09:26:22 AM »
Beach 4:  There are two four-skill solutions that I know of to this one.  One uses two jumpers, a canoer, and a laser blaster, and the other uses a jumper, a runner, a canoer, and a laser blaster (and some good timing getting the runner to grab onto the chain).  These solutions have 1 jumper, 1 canoer, and 1 laser blaster in common, and I haven't found any ways of eliminating any of them.

I can eliminate the canoer and the jumper (disclosure: for "no jumper" I only got to the part of getting a single lemming past the ball; I did not actually carry through the rest of the solution using LemSteven's solution with the runner, but I see no reason why the part of the solution wouldn't work here).

Quote from: Hints
no canoer:  use the chain.  Wrong facing direction?  Do something with the terrain to turn yourself.

no jumper: surprisingly easy with the bazooka's fling.

Quote from: spoilers
no canoer:  First, have 2 lemmings fire bazookas at the positions suggested in screenshots A and B.  This creates craters at the island with the suction trap, such that the right wall of the rightmost crater can turn a walker lemming around.  Now get a lemming onto the chain, and then release yourself while the chain is pretty much at the end of its swing to the right.  You will basically fall straight down.  Use the crater to turn yourself around facing left, and then jump back onto the chain at its lowest link.  Fan the chain to full power and then release yourself at the position shown in screenshot D.  Hopefully the result will be screenshot E where the lemming is successfully flung over the water.

no jumper: see screenshots for when to shoot the bazooka against the umbrella to fling exactly one lemming over the ball.  The reason this works is that the explosion happens basically just as that lemming, walking to the right, has gone past the center of the explosion.  This means he will be flung up and to the right very hard, because of his very small horizontal distance to the center of the explosion.

no laser:  you can blast through the floor using 2 bazookas fired to the left when you're standing on the handle of the bucket.  The issue is how to ensure no lemming gets flung over the ball from the 1st bazooka (the 2nd one will automatically work because the 1st one flung everyone far enough away from the blast site).  Sadly this is mostly a matter of luck/"timing".

My strategy is to get the hero to firing the bazookas quickly.  This means 1st lemming out runs and jumps over the ball, and try not to spend too much time on the chains.  Also, notice that if you assign a lemming jumper soon after he lands from falling out of the entrance, the jumping will bring him at nearly the same position as the previous lemming out.  This means if you basically jump every other lemming, you can reduce the number of positions the lemmings are at by roughly half.  Together with getting to the bazooka quickly (so there are fewer lemmings out and about), this will help increase your chance of success.  Still, good luck.

This leaves the laser blaster.  I was able to fire the 2 bazookas while standing at the handle of the bucket to blast through the floor, but the main problem is that in the process, inevitably a few (or not so few) lemmings gets flung over the ball.  Theoretically, it may be possible to avoid that result by using the spare jumpers and runners to somehow "vacate" the space really close to the explosion, to make sure no lemming gets flung over too hard to get past the ball.  I'll have to play around with the level a little more another day to see if I can make that work (and if anyone manages to get that to work before I do, more power to you).

[edit: no laser works!  this means final result for Beach 4 is none!
Unfortunately it's so timing-sensitive, I'm unable to tell you exactly how to reproduce my success; I'm sure it'll take me another few dozens of tries to do it a second time myself.  I do have a strategy that at least will hopefully make success a little more likely; see spoilers.]