Author Topic: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?  (Read 76165 times)

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Offline Clam

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LemSteven's back, so it's time to start the new challenge thread  :)

Treating each skill as equal, saving at least the required percentage of lemmings and using only the standard skillset for each level, how few skills can you get by with?

We're not looking for a list of levels this time. We're finding a number for each level, which will eventually become a full set of records - much like the maximum number of lemmings saved (or fewest lemmings lost).

I'll keep an updated table in this post. I've been through the Fun levels, and already turned up some interesting results - 20, 23 and 25 are scores I'd consider challenge-worthy.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Rating | 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Total |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Fun    | 1  1  3 11  3  2  2  1  1  1  3  3  3  5  8  6  3  5  4  8  2  7  4  2  2  5  2  9 11  2  120  |
|Tricky | 2  5  6  7  7  7  9 10  7 12  6  7  7 12  3  6  2  3  5  5  7  2  5  4 12  3  7  4  5  7  184  |
|Taxing | 9  5  9  7 12  3  8  9  3  8 12 10  8 22 11 13  4  3  5  7  7  3 12  5  6 12  9  7  6  7  242  |
|Mayhem |21 12  4  3 12  9 11  8 11 10  9  5  6 15 10  2  9 15 11  7 28 13 14  3  9 11  3  7 18 23  319  |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Tame   | 2  1  2  1  2  1  2  2  2  1  2  2  3  3  2  2  1  2  4  2                                 39  |
|Crazy  | 2  5  2  5  8  8  6 10  5 10  1  5  4  9  4  7  8  6  5  9                                119  |
|Wild   | 4 10  7 10  9  3  7 21  0  5  7  7  9  6  6  5  6  8 10  3                                143  |
|Wicked | 4 14  5  8  4  4  5  8 12 12  8 10 13  4 13  3  6  9  7  4                                153  |
|Havoc  |12 13  6  3  7  3 16 10 21  1 14  9  8 11  9  6  7 14  9 11                                190  |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Xmas 91| 8  9                                                                                       17  |
|Xmas 92| 1  1 17 14                                                                                 33  |
|Flurry | 4  2  1  2  1  2  2 10  3  9  3  3  2  3  1  6                                             54  |
|Blitz  |13 11  1  2  9  1  5  3 20  3 10  2 11  2 14  4                                            111  |
|Frost  | 5  3  5  2  2  5  7  1  3  5  3  6  1  5  5  5                                             63  |
|Hail   | 5  4 23  4 15  0 14  8 10  6  7  6  6 20  3 11                                            142  |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Rating | 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Total |
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Totals
Lemmings: 865 (7.21 per level)
Oh No! More Lemmings: 644 (6.44 per level)
Holiday Lemmings: 420 (6.00 per level)

Overall: 1929 (6.65 per level)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 02:54:23 AM by Proxima »

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 05:14:24 AM »
I started working through tricky, and most of what I came up with seems solid; (apparent) minimum skills for 1st 10 tricky levels:
2,5,5,8,7,8,11,11,9,13

A couple are potentially improvable, but I can't see how.
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 06:29:16 AM »
Good effort :). Some of them are certainly improvable though:

Tricky 4 can be improved to 7. This requires a bit of steel abuse:
Quote from: spoiler
The first two skills are bomber and basher.
6 can be done with 7 skills. This takes a very unusual approach, and works because you only need to save 4 lemmings.
7 can be done with 9. Nothing too complicated here.
9 can be done with 7. Massive steel abuse here ;)
10 can be done with 12 - I found a way to do the left side with 6, losing 5 lemmings (which is allowed since the right loses only one).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 01:23:25 PM »
Tricky 8 only needs 10 builders.  Nothing complicated:

Quote from: spoiler
Go directly from the platform 3rd from bottom to the platform where the exit sits.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 12:33:22 AM »
Progress on a random bunch of levels:

Tricky 11: 6
Tricky 12: 7
Tricky 15: 3
Tricky 17: 2
Tricky 18: 3
Tricky 19: 5
Tricky 22: 2
Tricky 26: 3
Taxing 6: 3
Taxing 9: 3
Taxing 18: 3
Taxing 19: 5
Taxing 23: 12
Taxing 24: 5
Mayhem 3: 4

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 12:58:34 AM »
Cool :)

I don't mind if we do these out of order (though I'll try to do them systematically myself). Oh No and Xmas levels are fair game too - I've got a full table (mostly blank) drawn up in Notepad that I can copy and paste in.

I'll check these before updating the table [edit: done]. I've just been through Tricky 11-20 myself, and the ones ccexplore has done seem to agree with mine.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 02:48:36 AM »
Here's what I've got for Tame:

1:  2
2:  1
3:  2
4:  1
5:  2
6:  1
7:  2
8:  2
9:  2
10:  1
11:  2
12:  2
13:  3
14:  3
15:  2
16:  2
17:  1
18:  2
19:  4
20:  2

Total:  39

And some other random levels from ONML:

Crazy 1:  3
Crazy 2:  5
Crazy 3:  4
Crazy 7:  6
Crazy 11:  1
Wild 5:  9
Wild 8:  21
Wild 9:  0 (Using the nuke glitch)
Wild 16:  5
Wicked 1:  4
Wicked 12:  11
Havoc 4:  5
Havoc 10:  1
Havoc 12:  12
Havoc 16:  6



Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 03:07:45 AM »
I've had a look through the rest of Tricky:

21: 7
23: 5
24: 4
25: 12
27: 7
28: 4
29: 5
30: 7

Crazy 3 can be done with 2.
Wicked 12 can be done with 10.

Good work on Crazy 2 and Havoc 4 - those two are tough. :)

Havoc 12 has three entrances, so the entrance order is wrong in Lemmix. Did you put in an extra trapdoor to fix this, or did you play it as is?

I've expanded the table to include ONML and Xmas levels.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 04:24:00 AM »
Havoc 12 has three entrances, so the entrance order is wrong in Lemmix. Did you put in an extra trapdoor to fix this, or did you play it as is?

I played the level in DOS.

Good work on Crazy 3 and Wicked 12!  :thumbsup:
Although admittedly, I should have seen Crazy 3 myself...

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 04:55:31 AM »
I played the level in DOS.
Oh. OK then :P

I just did this one in Lemmix with the trapdoors fixed, using only 10 builders.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 07:22:35 AM »
For ones that use glitches, we should also get a number for fewest possible without glitches.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 07:45:54 AM »
That's another thread entirely :P. I think we should finish this one off first (as far as we can, at least)

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 10:08:14 AM »
I started working through tricky, and most of what I came up with seems solid; (apparent) minimum skills for 1st 10 tricky levels:
2,5,5,8,7,8,11,11,9,13

Re: Tricky 3 - I forgot to check this one earlier, and now I can't seem to do it with fewer than 6 skills. Can this really be done with 5? If so, could you please provide a hint?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 12:14:16 PM »
Taxing 8 can be done with 9 skills.  Somehow this took me a long while to work out, even though it's so logical now that I got it.

Havoc 6: 3 skills

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 04:27:47 PM »
Quote
Re: Tricky 3 - I forgot to check this one earlier, and now I can't seem to do it with fewer than 6 skills. Can this really be done with 5? If so, could you please provide a hint?

Unless I came up with some brilliant solution and then forgot it, I think I must have simply miscounted. I'm 99% sure 6 is the minimum. Sorry about that, it was late when I worked on those...  :XD:

EDIT: I worked out a 5 lemming solution but it only gets 31% of the needed 50%. Its a release rate issue...
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 07:41:55 PM »
It's not a solution unless it actually saves the required %.  It's more accurate to say you can establish a path to the exit using only 5 skills.

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 07:52:24 PM »
picky picky  ;P
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 10:38:22 PM »
I played the level in DOS.
Oh. OK then. :P

I just did this one in Lemmix with the trapdoors fixed, using only 10 builders.

Try 9 builders. :P Lemmix replay attached.  (Remember to fix the trapdoors first before doing the replay!)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:29:44 PM by Minim »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2009, 11:51:05 PM »
Here's a few more:

Taxing 22:  3
Taxing 25:  7
Mayhem 15:  10
Mayhem 16:  3 (Appears to require pausing for time)
Mayhem 24:  3
Mayhem 27:  3 (See Mayhem 16)

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2009, 12:19:34 AM »
Closest I can get with Mayhem 16 and 27 is to have the last lemming halfway through the exit animation when the timer hits 00:00 (without the pause trick). Can anyone verify whether this is possible? (i.e. not using a 3rd basher on the last lemming that turns around).
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2009, 12:45:41 AM »
I'm attempting a 2-skill solution for Mayehm 16, but looks like it's going take a lot of work, and intuitively it's looking somewhat unlikely at this point.  Using the text-file version of the replay, I could easily determine which is that last lemming that couldn't make it through.  Currently in my version, it's the 10th lemming out.  The second to last lemming that barely makes it out under the clock [despite turning around in the bash tunnel] is the 9th lemming out, and the 11th lemming out (upon which is when the RR starts going to 99) barely makes it through without ever turning around.

You can't simply "reposition" the problematic 10th lemming by simple RR manipulation, since you're already at the lowest allowed RR going from 9th to 10th and to 11th.  So the only other possibility is to reposition all remaining 41 lemmings starting from the 10th to come before what's the 9th lemming in the current solution.  So we're talking about a solution where you actually have the entire crowd milling about in the bash tunnel rather early on and yet the timing all works out magically so that they all make it to the exit in time! :o You can start to see how unlikely that would be.

This one might truly require some computer simulations to work out all the possibilities.  Small differences in distances between lemmings in an ongoing bash tunnel quickly magnifies to huge distances after a few iterations, due to the lengthening nature of the tunnel.

[edit: look at my solution again and realize a mistake.  The first lemming that barely makes through without turning around is actually not the 11th lemming out but an earlier one.  This means I actually have a 22-pixel margin of spacing to work with going from 9th to 11th lemmings out, although it still remains rather unlikely that it's enough to make a difference.]

[edit2:  okay, now the last lemming is 39 pixels away from the exit in Lemmix.  I think exiting takes 8 frames, so the last lemming is 47 frames behind.  That's about 2.76 game seconds.  It might be possible if you use both the pause trick and the high-performance slow-fadeout trick to gain maximum possible amount of extra time.  I'll have to try it out in DOSBox and see......  edit3: confirmed!]

Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2009, 01:17:38 AM »
I realise you're talking about a different version, but it may be worth noting that 16 Mayhem requires only two skills on the Mac version.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2009, 01:27:23 AM »
The clock speed is quite different amongst difference ports of Lemmings.  It's known that the Mac has an even slightly slower clock than the DOS version, so what you said makes sense.

The version with the slowest clock we know is Windows, and the versions with the fastest known clock speed are the Amiga, SNES and Sega Genesis (Megadrive).

Anyway, I just confirmed that in DOSBox, if you play the level in high-performance PC mode and use the pause trick, the last lemming will make it out in the nick of time giving you 100%, if you merely dig into the pit and bash.  I don't know how you want to count this, but maybe we could call this "2*"?  I'll post the DOSBox video soon.

And of course, due to the difficulty of analyzing the level, it's entirely possible there might be a faster solution we overlooked.  What we really need is a computer simulation that determines, given the spacing between the basher and a lemming behind the basher, how long would that lemming take to get past the bash tunnel and exit.  With this information available, it would then be possible to establish a distribution of lemming spacing that has the desired outcome, or prove that one doesn't exist.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2009, 01:51:40 AM »
While we're on the topic of computer simulations...

I'm working on an ambitious plan for Taxing 4 with only 7 skills. It involves compressing the lemmings in the same way as I did on Mayhem 12, and then sliding the lemmings up to the exit. I've managed to get 29 home (the requirement is 30) through pure guesswork, and I'm almost certain that can be improved with some release rate adjustments. The trouble is, like on Mayhem 16, the effects of early release rate changes are unpredictable due to the changing nature of the terrain.

I'll keep trying a little longer since I only need to find one more lemming... :XD:
EDIT: Got it 8-). Replay attached. Watch closely for the release rate change on the last lemming - this is the key. The rest is just guesswork.


By the way, the Lemmings Encyclopedia seems to claim that Mayhem 16 can be done with only 2 skills - it just tells you to dig, bash and turn up the release rate.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:47:30 PM by Minim »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2009, 02:06:09 AM »
By the way, the Lemmings Encyclopedia seems to claim that Mayhem 16 can be done with only 2 skills - it just tells you to dig, bash and turn up the release rate.

Yeah if I recall, there's evidence that the person who does that website used to play the game on the Mac, and Mac Lemmings has a slightly slower clock than PC Lemmings, which could explain the difference.

Also remember that the solutions on the website are probably just how that person managed to solve the level when they first played the game.  They are not necessarily "good" solutions in terms of speed, reliability, elegance, etc.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2009, 02:11:42 AM »
Closest I can get with Mayhem 16 and 27 is to have the last lemming halfway through the exit animation when the timer hits 00:00 (without the pause trick). Can anyone verify whether this is possible? (i.e. not using a 3rd basher on the last lemming that turns around).

I just realized now that you're actually asking about LemSteven's 3-skill solutions.  I haven't tried it but here's a hint:

Quote from: spoiler
1st lemming bash, 2nd lemming dig as close to end of bash tunnel as feasible, and then he bashes once he digs down enough to form a wall on the left.  The idea is for the digger to basically put the left wall of the basher's tunnel as far to the right as possible.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2009, 02:20:47 AM »
I've just achieved Taxing 4 with 7 skills. I've attached the replay to my previous post.

Here's Taxing 1-10 (excluding the ones that were already done):

1: 10
2: 6
3: 9
4: 7
5: 12 (still working on this) OK, I'm reasonably satisfied with this. It still seems a bit inefficient though...
7: 8
10: 8

Taxing 25:  7
Make that 6. ;)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2009, 03:14:02 AM »
Anyway, I just confirmed that in DOSBox, if you play the level in high-performance PC mode and use the pause trick, the last lemming will make it out in the nick of time giving you 100%, if you merely dig into the pit and bash.  I don't know how you want to count this, but maybe we could call this "2*"?  I'll post the DOSBox video soon.

DOSBox video uploaded:  http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Mayhem16_2skills.zip

The zip file also includes the Lemmix replay, which of course will run out of time a bit sooner in Lemmix.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:41:20 PM by Minim »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2009, 03:23:55 AM »
Closest I can get with Mayhem 16 and 27 is to have the last lemming halfway through the exit animation when the timer hits 00:00 (without the pause trick). Can anyone verify whether this is possible? (i.e. not using a 3rd basher on the last lemming that turns around).

I've confirmed LemSteven's 3-skill solution on Lemmix.  Replay attached.  In fact you don't even need the pause trick at all:  my replay has 3 game seconds left on the clock!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:42:49 PM by Minim »

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2009, 03:51:51 AM »
Anyway, I just confirmed that in DOSBox, if you play the level in high-performance PC mode and use the pause trick, the last lemming will make it out in the nick of time giving you 100%, if you merely dig into the pit and bash.  I don't know how you want to count this, but maybe we could call this "2*"?

It's a solution that works in DOS. I'm willing to accept that. Nice work :thumbsup:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2009, 07:47:20 AM »
And of course, due to the difficulty of analyzing the level, it's entirely possible there might be a faster solution we overlooked.  What we really need is a computer simulation that determines, given the spacing between the basher and a lemming behind the basher, how long would that lemming take to get past the bash tunnel and exit.  With this information available, it would then be possible to establish a distribution of lemming spacing that has the desired outcome, or prove that one doesn't exist.
A light bulb just went on, and I realize I don't need a full-blown computer simulation.  Lemmix has what I need to make this work!

Attached is a 2-skills solution for Mayhem 16, "Just a Minute..." that works in Lemmix, meaning no pause trick or slow fade-out necessary.  Here's how I worked it out using Lemmix:

1) I start with an attempt solution that has the basher come out and start bashing as soon as possible, and RR 99 for everyone following the basher.  17 lemmings did not make it to the exit in Lemmix.  Nevertheless, I save the replay.

2) I now modify the level to add a bunch of extra skills I don't actually intend to use in my solution, but allows me to "mark" Lemmings in the Lemmix replay.  In my case, I added 99 builders.

3) With the level modified, I played back the replay from step #1, but this time near the end, I assign builders to the last 17 lemmings that cannot exit.  And I save the replay.

By assigning skills to those lemmings, they will show up in the replay.

4) Looking at the text version of the replay, which identifies which lemmings (in order they entered into the level, with "0" being the first) I assigned builders, I found the exact 17 positions in the RR 99 sequence that does not work.

5) I then make the necessary RR adjustments to "skip over" those bad positions, moving those 17 lemmings out of those positions and into the back of the crowd.  (Back of the crowd looks safe, since the last 2 lemmings to come out of the trapdoor in the failed solution did make it to the exit.)

6) Armed with this new plan, I revert back to the original level and try it out.  And lo and behold, it works!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:45:15 PM by Minim »

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2009, 09:04:37 AM »
Genius. Sheer genius. I am humbled, good sir... :XD:
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2009, 09:28:34 AM »
I just spent a few hours working through Crazy.  Here's what I have so far:

4:  5
5:  8
6:  8
8:  11
9:  8
10:  11
12:  5
13:  4
14:  10
15:  4
16:  7
17:  8
18:  8
19:  6
20:  11

I have a feeling it may be possible to improve some of these, particularly 20.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2009, 12:39:00 PM »
Crazy 14 can be improved to 9 with a simple refinement of the standard solution.
Crazy 20 can be improved to 9 also.

Replays attached.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:45:54 PM by Minim »

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2009, 11:22:18 PM »
A light bulb just went on, and I realize I don't need a full-blown computer simulation.  Lemmix has what I need to make this work!

Attached is a 2-skills solution for Mayhem 16, "Just a Minute..." that works in Lemmix, meaning no pause trick or slow fade-out necessary.

Wow. That's quite amazing. :thumbsup:


I have three improvements to the Crazy levels. Take off one skill each for 9, 10 and 18. My 10-skill solution for Crazy 10 is the "ceiling route" that I did a while back for the Challenge thread :D

[edit: Crazy 18 replay removed, see below]
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:50:45 PM by Minim »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2009, 12:39:22 AM »
Ah, I see what you did on Crazy 10.  My eleven-skill solution used pretty much the same basic idea, except it had a different way of holding back the crowd and therefore required use of the climber.  Good job!  :thumbsup:

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2009, 01:11:47 AM »
Continuing my march through the original levels... Here's some more Taxing.

11: 12
12: 10
13: 8
14: 23
15: 11
16: 13
17: 4
20: 7

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2009, 01:39:35 AM »
I just realized that using the nuke glitch, Fun 27 can be passed in DOS Lemmings with just 2 floaters.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2009, 04:46:11 AM »
Take off one skill each for 9, 10 and 18.

*slaps forehead*

Take off another one from 18. That's 6 skills now.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:53:15 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2009, 05:51:34 AM »
Here's the rest of the first half of Wild:

1:  4
2:  10
3:  8
4:  11
6:  4
7:  8
10:  5

And a special note on Wild 1:
Quote from: highlight to read
As far as I know, it requires the direct drop trick.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2009, 06:31:50 AM »
Wild 6 can be done with 3. Replay attached.  :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:54:06 PM by Minim »

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2009, 09:43:04 AM »
Taxing 21: 7. I've tried EVERYTHING I can think of to get below this, nothing works. It's pretty much just the original solution. :P
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2009, 10:14:30 AM »
Mayhem 13: 6 skills. Very easy to find IMO. My play uses a minor glitch, but it's very possible without triggering the glitch, with almost no change.

Mayhem 18: 17 skills. While not impressively low, it's a lot more efficient than any other solution I've encountered. Note that on versions that allow 100 Lemmings per level, if you still only have to save 90%, it's probably possible to drop that to 15.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:59:23 PM by Minim »
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Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 04:23:14 PM »
I'll keep an updated table in this post. I've been through the Fun levels, and already turned up some interesting results - 20, 23 and 25 are scores I'd consider challenge-worthy.

I got 20 and 23 (and even came close - but unfortunately, couldn't quite make it - on beating your record by 1 in 20), but I'm completely stumped as to how you did 25...
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 01:18:33 AM »
Here's the rest of Taxing as I see it:

26: 12 (see replay)
27: 9 (by the outside route)
28: 8 (see replay)
29: 6 (similar to Tricky 3)
30: 7

I got 20 and 23 (and even came close - but unfortunately, couldn't quite make it - on beating your record by 1 in 20), but I'm completely stumped as to how you did 25...
I'd be interested to know how you went about trying to improve on Fun 20. My solution doesn't appear to have any potential for improvement.

Fun 25 with 2 skills takes a bit of fine placement. Remember, though, that half the lemmings can die and you'll still pass.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:02:29 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2009, 01:13:33 PM »
ARGH.
I -HATE- Tricky 13 right now.
I've tried two frame-perfect positions to time the last move at, which if successful, would've beaten the current record by 1. Neither of them works. Either way, one part turns out to be /just/ too high for the lemmings.

In case someone else can improve on it and get it working, I've attached the replay of how I did it. Or in case someone actually has the required insanity to attempt it in DOS where there may be a slight mechanical difference that allows it to work.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:04:25 PM by Minim »
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2009, 10:13:40 PM »
I've already tried what you're trying to do (and I won't be surprised if ClamSpammer thought of it too), but as you say, it's too high, and there's no difference between DOS Lemmings and Lemmix in this regard.

However, you did inspire me to take yet another look at that level and I finally worked out how to do it with 7 skills.  Replay attached (get ready to slap yourself in the forehead as I did...... ;P).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:05:19 PM by Minim »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2009, 10:54:12 PM »
28: 8 (see replay)
Taxing 28 only needs 7 skills.  I imagine you didn't do this just to avoid the tedium of doing the replay for this one (attached). ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:08:11 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2009, 11:36:52 PM »
I nearly got Fun 26 down to 4, but it looks like it's just out of reach.  One of the lemmings leaks just before the other one lays down the last brick necessary to clear the path to the exit.  If the top two blocks in the obstacle in front of the exit were one pixel lower, it would be possible.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2009, 01:03:39 AM »
Here's yet another level improved to 7 skills (hmm...7...must be my lucky day :P):

Wild 7 (replay attached)

For the second basher assigned on the top to bash all the way through, he must start bashing at a pixel-precise location, which you can determine from the replay by seeing how far his first stroke reaches.  (And in case you're wondering, my sketching clearly shows that you cannot get through that obstacle with only one basher.)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:09:41 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2009, 01:07:31 AM »
However, you did inspire me to take yet another look at that level and I finally worked out how to do it with 7 skills.  Replay attached (get ready to slap yourself in the forehead as I did...... ;P).
I don't consider that worthy of a forehead-slapping. I think that's extremely clever. :thumbsup:


Taxing 28 only needs 7 skills.  I imagine you didn't do this just to avoid the tedium of doing the replay for this one (attached). ;)
For some reason, this sort of trick just doesn't cross my mind when I play a level... :(

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2009, 02:23:52 AM »
I've already tried what you're trying to do (and I won't be surprised if ClamSpammer thought of it too), but as you say, it's too high, and there's no difference between DOS Lemmings and Lemmix in this regard.

However, you did inspire me to take yet another look at that level and I finally worked out how to do it with 7 skills.  Replay attached (get ready to slap yourself in the forehead as I did...... ;P).

Indeed, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Even more so when I did consider building across to meet the top of the other bridge, and couldn't reach. I never even thought about having them land under it.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2009, 07:33:21 AM »
Here's a 9-skills solution to Havoc 15.  The seemingly pointless last builder is actually necessary to establish the basher's starting position so that he will bash all the way through.  (That basher needs to start off at least 7 pixels away from the wall, and a build brick is only 6 pixels, hence the extra builder.)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:10:42 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2009, 12:14:07 PM »
I've been busy working on the start of Mayhem...

1: 22
2: 13
4: 3
5: 12
6: 9
7: 12
8: 8
9: 11 (similar to Fun 29, but a bit more thought required)
10: 12
11: 9
12: 5 (direct route through the steel)

I have an idea of how you might be able to take one off Mayhem 1. I've uploaded two replays for this level: a 22-skill solution, which is my best effort thus far, and a 26-skill solution, which, as far as I'm aware, is the fewest possible without glitches. If you look closely, you'll notice that the glitch-free solution actually takes one skill less to get the lemmings across the water, at the cost of a few (expendible) lemmings. This is because the lemmings gather inside the hole to the left of the water, which means no blockers are needed. My theory is that if you can gather up a 72-in-1 lemming, plus at least one other (preferably two) in the hole, without using any extra skills (i.e. by changing the release rate and builder timing), then you can save a skill here and still execute the final part in the same way.

Also attached are replays for 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10. Try them first if you like :devil:
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:14:59 PM by Minim »

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »
I've beaten the original lemmings game before, so I'll see if I can improve on any of these.  I doubt it though.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2009, 03:25:36 AM »
Mayhem 2 can be done with 12 skills.  I'm surprised Master Slider ClamSpammer didn't get this one. ;P

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
I tried using the sliding glitch, but I couldn't find a way to improve on my "no sliding" effort. "Master Slider ClamSpammer" was too concerned with Mayhem 1 to go back and try this again.
And it worked out. ;)

I've done exactly what I mentioned in my earlier post - I gathered enough lemmings in the same exact position to leap them up to the exit and save the required percentage. The process actually isn't too dissimilar to your Mayhem 16 solution. Here's how I did it:


- Start with the first part of the 26-skill, glitch free solution.

- Use release rate changes to create 5 groups of lemmings (whose positions match up exactly) in the pit, starting with the first non-floater that falls safely into the pit. For now you can leave these groups at one lemming each.

- Build out in the same way as I did in the glitch-free replay, using the floater lemming each time.

- Mark the lemmings in the order they emerge from the pit. Save a replay and check this order in the text file (the last one will be #0 - the floater and builder).

- Load the replay, stop replaying before the part where you marked the lemmings, and check the spacing between the lemmings as they enter the pit (using bombers to clear them away so you can see better :P).

- Work out the release rate changes needed to eliminate these gaps. This may take a couple of tries, since the different spacing may mean the builder disrupts this.


This isn't guaranteed to work for a given setup, but in this case it did.

Attached is a replay of Mayhem 1 completed with 21 skills. Now please don't go and find an easier way to save a skill on this level - unless it's compatible with this method of course. :)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2009, 02:24:26 PM »
Nice work! :thumbsup: Yeah, I can see how figuring out and doing the replay (yet another RR-change-on-every-lemming...) for that one would've taken up all your time and attention.

And now, an 11-skills solution for Mayhem 7.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2009, 10:23:43 PM »
Heh, I love how they fall off the screen when you nuke them :D

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2009, 06:44:23 AM »
ARGH.
I -HATE- Tricky 13 right now.
I hate Mayhem 20 right now. Is there really no way to do this without using every available skill?  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />


Filling in a few gaps...

Mayhem 14: 16. The best "glitch-free" route takes 17. No replay for this one, I'm afraid, since it uses the cursor-steel-digging glitch.
Mayhem 17: 9
Mayhem 19: 11

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2009, 03:32:04 AM »
I've improved Mayhem 14 to 15 skills, by taking advantage of the placement of the steel areas, which don't match up exactly with the terrain. The attached replay shows everything up to the steel-glitch part, which doesn't work in replays. See spoiler for the rest:

Quote from: spoiler
Dig down 3 times using the cursor glitch, as far to the right as possible. This is a bit annoying since it selects the same lemming each time, so be careful not to let the other lemmings jump up into in the water. Block the second digger (the one used to perform the glitch) in an exact spot so that the first digger keeps digging without releasing it, and the main group of lemmings comes as close as possible to it when they turn around - this is needed for a bomber to destroy the steel. Give a lemming a bomber skill at the left position, holding the right mouse button to avoid selecting the blocker. This bomber should explode and make a hole. Bomb and block again to open a path to the exit.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2009, 03:35:05 AM »
I have no better luck with Mayhem 20.  Actually, there is an almost-solution that I think could've worked if the topmost row of pixels of the starting platform is at y=62 instead of y=61.  That affects the alignment of the field of a blocker placed on the starting platform:  at y=62 the field extends to the top 6 rows of pixels, but at y=61 it only extends to 3.

One thing you should not try is getting 2 miners to mine towards each other and hope they both stop.  Due to the same miscalculation that led to the miner glitch (miner can drop off terrain w/o breaking through it), that will never get both miners to stop.

Then again, in terms of overall numbers, Mayhem 21 is far bleaker.  So far I'm not seeing any way you can avoid assigning all 50 lemmings floaters. :XD:

Anyway, made some random progress today on three levels:

Wicked 16:  3 (nothing special; nuke glitch didn't help)
Wicked 17:  6 (attached; failed to do any better so far)
Wicked 20:  4 (pretty obvious I think)


Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2009, 04:25:08 AM »
Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

Wild 13 can be done with 9 skills -- nothing too difficult.

Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2009, 06:00:15 AM »
Then again, in terms of overall numbers, Mayhem 21 is far bleaker.  So far I'm not seeing any way you can avoid assigning all 50 lemmings floaters. :XD:

I've got it 8)

There is a way to create a high enough platform to allow the lemmings to fall safely using only one builder. By bashing into the wall, you can open up a bit more room for the builder to work. And, because of the shape of the basher tunnel, the builder can start 1 pixel above ground level. This lets you build a bridge just high enough to prevent the lemmings from splatting. Unfortunately, you can't start the basher until the first lemming has prepared enough of the path so that the others don't fall to the lower part of the level. The best solution I've found uses 21 floaters, and 28 skills total (replay attached).


Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

 ??? As far as I can tell, it takes 7 skills just to get some lemmings to the exit. Do you have a replay?


Quote
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

It must be a DOS-only thing. The ceiling route works just fine in Lemmix, and gives a 10-skill solution.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2009, 06:55:08 AM »
Wild 11 can be done with 7 skills.  It's pretty much the same basic idea as the 1-minute solution I mentioned in the other thread.

 ??? As far as I can tell, it takes 7 skills just to get some lemmings to the exit. Do you have a replay?

No, I do not have a replay for two reasons:

1:  I've been doing my work in the DOS version of Lemmings.
2:  It's too easy for a replay.

My solution was actually pretty straightforward, other than a little bit of steel mining/bashing in the end.  If you're still stuck, here's the outline of my solution:

Quote from: Highlight to read
1: Make the first lemming a climber.
2:  Make the second lemming build up to the brick that juts out above the others so that the crowd can get past it.  This lemming will turn around when he's done.
3:  Build into the pillar below the entrance to keep the crowd from falling into the pit below.
4:  Make the climber build over the second half of the chain.
5:  Release the crowd by building a bridge up to the white stairs that lead up to the chain.
6:  Make the climber mine when he is about 40% of the way up the brick ramp.  He will hit steel and turn around, but his last stroke will take out more than half of the steel.
7:  Have someone from the crowd bash out the last chunk of steel.

Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2009, 09:05:10 AM »
Too easy? Perhaps I should avoid the spoiler and try it again later...
EDIT: got it :XD:

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2009, 11:33:13 AM »
Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

As much as I'd like to believe you... well, I don't believe you. Maybe I need a break :(


For now, here's a couple more from Mayhem.

22: 13
23: 14
25: 9

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2009, 12:26:58 PM »
I've tried Taxing 21 again. I /nearly/ came up with a 6 skill solution, but it just barely doesn't work. By making a second lemming a climber, and having him take over the rest of the work (but this both uses a 7th skill and fails to get 100%), it will work. Maybe someone who knows more could improve on it?

Basically, it involves the dig-the-side-of-steel glitch to get past the flamethrower... and from there the rest is obvious.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2009, 12:31:06 PM »
There is a way to create a high enough platform to allow the lemmings to fall safely using only one builder.

Good job. :thumbsup: Clearly I need to stop eyeballling the fall distance from entrances and actually measure it out next time.

Quote
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason.

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

It must be a DOS-only thing. The ceiling route works just fine in Lemmix, and gives a 10-skill solution.

How high are you when you start bashing?  Back on the old old forums, I executed ceiling-route solutions for Mayhem 12 and Havoc 11 in DOS Lemmings, so clearly it can work in DOS Lemmings.  I'm especially baffled with Wild 19 since I examined the level in both LemEdit and Lemmix, and the only terrain there that extends off the level top boundary are the steel blocks (the terrain, not the actual steel areas), and they are all at the same altitude, so even if there's some unknown issue with clipping at the level top boundary, it shouldn't be happening halfway through your bashing.

I'll take a look at it myself soon, but if you can give more precise information on where exactly you start bashing, it would help me investigate what's going on.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2009, 12:43:27 PM »
Also; I think Mayhem 24 is very obvious: 3 skills.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2009, 01:06:40 PM »
I've tried Taxing 21 again. I /nearly/ came up with a 6 skill solution, but it just barely doesn't work. By making a second lemming a climber, and having him take over the rest of the work (but this both uses a 7th skill and fails to get 100%), it will work. Maybe someone who knows more could improve on it?

Basically, it involves the dig-the-side-of-steel glitch to get past the flamethrower... and from there the rest is obvious.

I've already considered this since I was the one to issue the no-builder challenge for that level back on the old old forums.  I don't think you can get that to work with less than 8 skills actually:

1) You need to dig down the edge of the steel block a total of 12 pixels.  Then because the initial frame of falling goes down 4 pixels, the lemming will "fall through" the trigger area skipping it in effect.

2) I think you need at least 3 skills to clear away the top 7 rows of pixels of steel:  build twice to the right height and bash, or climb dig bash.

3) You then need to set up a blocker to enable you to dig down the final 5 pixels at the edge, and then you need to also free the blocker afterwards.  So that's already another 3 skills:  one to block, one to dig away the steel, and one to free the blocker.

4) Finally, even when you get past the framethrower into the bottom of the pit where the exit is, I think you need at least 2 more skills to create a path to the exit.  You can't just build up to it because the framethrower reaches a small portion of the left end of the terrain where the exit sits.

Even if there's some way in #3 to clear pixels and free the blocker with the same skill, you still end up with 7 total.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2009, 02:25:35 PM »
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

I've had this same problem occur in the ceiling routes for other levels, as well.  It only occurs when the top of the basher is off the top of the screen, and there doesn't have to be steel in the area to make it happen.  I haven't heard about anyone else having problems with this, so I'm wondering if it is a DOS-only glitch...

I've just played my copy of ONML in DOSBox, and I was able to bash through the ceiling in Wild 19 at height 7 and height 6 without encountering the problem you have.  (At height 5 the bash does just one stroke and stops, just like in Lemmix.)

I did check the game's programming.  If I read it right, the location on the trigger map the basher would check for steel/one-way-wall is actually not even covered in the trigger map (the trigger map only covers up to the top of the screen).  The calculations for accessing the trigger map at that out-of-range location would actually wrap around to some completely unrelated portions of memory, which may well contain garbage values that happen to match the value for a steel or OWW trigger area by accident.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2009, 08:45:47 PM »
All I know for sure about the positioning of my basher in Wild 19 is that it was at the lowest place he can start.  The horizontal positioning doesn't make any difference.  Also, the basher stops in the same place every time, which is about halfway through.  There is no "clink" sound that indicates he hit steel, so he is behaving more like he hit a one-way wall (even there are no one-way walls in the said level).  If I try and use the other basher when he comes back, he just takes one stroke and then does the same thing.

I've also had problems with this on Mayhem 28, although there it doesn't ruin the solution because there are sufficient bashers and diggers that I can go under the problem areas.  I don't have any problems with Mayhem 12 or Havoc 11.

Anyway, I've also got 7 skills on Wild 12, using a "floor route."

As much as I'd like to believe you... well, I don't believe you. Maybe I need a break :(

Okay, admittedly this one is somewhat more difficult than Wild 11.  I'll do my best to explain this one:

Quote from: Highlight to read
Set the release rate to about 25 or so for the first few lemmings.
1.  The first lemming builds from the edge of the ice platform.  The second lemming will drown, but the third one will land near the edge of the platform below.
2.  Make this lemming bash a step or two after he lands.  He must be low enough so that nobody gets killed by the ice shooter later on.
3.  Place a blocker so that nobody else falls into the water.
4.  Wait until the basher gets to the little dip just past the ice shooter (there is a little hump just past it).  Hopefully the top of the basher's tunnel will be exposed.  When this happens, make him build to stop bashing.  (If the top of the tunnel is not exposed here, you will have to start over and bash a little higher.)
5.  When a lemming is going down the right side the little hump (to the left of the icicles hanging down), make him build.  If this is done in the right spot, he will not hit his head on the icicles, even though it looks like he will.
6.  When the builder runs out of bricks, give him more.
7.  The builder will run out of bricks when he reaches the snow wall on the right.  Let him walk up as high as he can and then bash.  If you bash from the right spot, he will stop bashing on the other side and walk up the rest of the way to the exit.

Meanwhile, the rest of the crowd is milling around freely.  This is why you need the top of the first basher's tunnel to be exposed -- so that the lemmings who turn around will drop back into the tunnel and not get killed by the ice shooter.  Everybody should get to the exit in time, though, saving 96%.  (Make sure to raise the release rate to 99!)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2009, 12:57:54 AM »
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

If you can get DOSBox v0.73 working on your machine, I suggest using DOSBox for those levels where you run into the problem.  As I explained in another post, the game has buggy calculations in locating the trigger areas when the basher is that high in the level, and ends up reading memory that I'm not sure is even part of the program.  In DOSBox though at least those memory areas seem to remain all 0s (translating to empty trigger areas), unlike if you run it in actual DOS where it could well truly be random garbage from previous programs.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2009, 12:58:35 AM »
Never mind, I've found the spot you have to build from (on Wild 12). I thought that hanging icicle got in the way wherever you started from, but apparently not.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2009, 01:10:36 AM »
I thought that hanging icicle got in the way wherever you started from, but apparently not.

I haven't looked at that level in detail and don't know which icicle you're referring to or where the builder in question is located, but I see that many of the icicles' tips are only 1 pixel in width, and as you might know, when checking for ceiling for builders, the game actually only checks a single pixel each time, and the builder advances horizontally by 2 pixels each time.  So by merely shifting where you start building by one pixel, it's quite possible for the builder's ceiling-detection to "skip over" an icicle.

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2009, 03:31:06 AM »
Mayhem 18: Got it down to 16 skills. Someone with better knowledge of the exact mechanics could probably reduce it to 15, but I had to use one extra builder to allow one extra lemming to survive, otherwise I could only acheive 88%. (The solution would work as-is, with 15 skills, on versions such as Amiga that give you 100 Lemmings instead of 80).
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Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2009, 05:09:35 AM »
Yes, there's a way around this. Now down to 15 skills in DOS.


To round off the rest of Mayhem:

26: 12
28: 8
29: 19
30: 28

Replays for 18, 26 and 29 attached.

Now that we've got a score for all the original levels, I've added the total to the first post, beneath the table.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2009, 01:16:04 PM »
Wild 19 is giving me fits right now.  I'm having problems with an obnoxious glitch that is preventing me from taking the "ceiling route."  I can start bashing through the top of the steel just fine, but about halfway through the lemming simply stops and turns around for no apparent reason. 

If you can get DOSBox v0.73 working on your machine, I suggest using DOSBox for those levels where you run into the problem.

Unfortunately DOSBox turns out to be no guarantee that it'll eliminate the problem.  I just ran into the problem on Mayhem 28, even though I'm playing the game in DOSBox.  I wonder now if the reason I didn't run into the problem on ONML is maybe my copy of the ONML is different from LemSteven's?

I did discover that if I play the game in CGA or Tandy mode, I was able to make the problem go away at least for Mayhem 28.  So that's something you could give a try, to play the level in CGA or Tandy mode and see if you can bash successfully.

I would argue that the behavior in Lemmix is actually the more "correct" behavior, although it is a little unnerving to think that the desired solution might actually not be executable in the actual game.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2009, 01:40:00 PM »
Building at the correct place, I could do Mayhem 28 with 7 skills on Lemmix.  Solution attached.

But sadly I have not been able to make it work on DOS Lemmings so far.  In VGA mode, I'm running into the same problem LemSteven's encountering on Wild 19, causing the bashing to stop midway.  If instead I play in CGA or Tandy mode, the bashing will go all the way, but the builder stops one brick short at the top (unlike in VGA mode), requiring an extra builder as a result.

[edit:  I was finally able to make the solution work in DOS Lemmings if I use the program mentioned in the post below to get rid of the "LemSteven ceiling basher syndrome".  I could produce a DOSBox video if someone wants proof.]

I would think that you can get away without the 2nd basher in Mayhem 29.  I'll try it later if you don't get to it.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2009, 10:59:28 PM »
Ok, I find a way to make the ceiling-bashing problem go away, at least in DOSBox.

Attached is a tiny program that changes DOS's memory allocation strategy.  In DOSBox, if you run this program first, and then run Lemmings, I find that the ceiling bashing problem will go away in for example, Mayhem 28.

It might feel a little wrong to some of you.  However, this program does not touch the game's program and data at all; in fact it finishes doing its work before you even run the game.  It is conceivable that there might be real DOS application programs out there that if run, may produce the same effect.

The program should work fine in actual DOS as well.  The only thing I haven't taken care of is to actually ensure that the memory being accessed by the game during the problem are actually all 0s.  The change in DOS's memory allocation strategy means the game is now truly accessing memory not owned by the game or any other programs, so it's still possible that a previously run program could've used the same memory addresses and left over some byte values there, although it should be unlikely if you haven't run any other programs (besides lastfit.com) before running Lemmings.  If I have time I could write a longer program to try to zero out the memory as well.

Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2009, 03:45:38 AM »
This is getting too surreal for words.

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2009, 03:45:50 AM »
I did discover that if I play the game in CGA or Tandy mode, I was able to make the problem go away at least for Mayhem 28.  So that's something you could give a try, to play the level in CGA or Tandy mode and see if you can bash successfully.

I would argue that the behavior in Lemmix is actually the more "correct" behavior, although it is a little unnerving to think that the desired solution might actually not be executable in the actual game.

I would think that if the extra time given by High Performance mode is considered acceptable, then so is any advantage given by CGA/Tandy mode... thus making the solution valid.
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Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2009, 04:02:53 AM »
Wow, Lemmings is affected by something outside of Lemmings. That's kinda spooky...


Building at the correct place, I could do Mayhem 28 with 7 skills on Lemmix.  Solution attached.
More counterintuitive builder placement.  :XD:


Quote
I would think that you can get away without the 2nd basher in Mayhem 29.  I'll try it later if you don't get to it.

Or you could do it with no bashers at all (but using an extra builder). I've got it to work with 18 now - just.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2009, 06:29:53 AM »
Here's a couple more Wild scores:

Wild 15:  6
Wild 20:  4

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2009, 06:48:39 AM »
Starting off the Xmas levels with a bang...

Blitz 1: 20. This includes only 1 climber.
EDIT: Make that 18. I've cut out the last climber, as well as the floater.


Wild 20 can be done with 3:
Quote
Yet more counterintuitive builder placement.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2009, 08:49:26 PM »
Blitz 1: 20. This includes only 1 climber.
EDIT: Make that 18. I've cut out the last climber, as well as the floater.

Try 15 skills instead.  I've added back the climber and floater. ;P

[edit: now down to 13 skills.  And no, I didn't have any clever way of deriving the "crowd recompression"; it was just trial and error.]

Frost 13 can be done with 1 skill (not 0 though) courtesy of the nuke glitch.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2009, 06:47:54 AM »
Well, I thought a "no climbers" solution on a level where you'd normally make everyone climb was a good effort...


Here's the rest of Wild.

14: 6
17: 6
18: 8

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2009, 11:48:41 AM »
Well, I thought a "no climbers" solution on a level where you'd normally make everyone climb was a good effort...

I'm sure it's a very good effort.   Just a bit inefficient, that's all.  Attached is a 13-skill solution to Blitz 1 that does not use any climbers or floaters.  It's also possible to get 100% with just 14-skills, no climbers nor floaters.

Offline Fleech

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2009, 01:14:38 PM »
I wish I had something useful to contribute to this thread, and indeed all the challenge threads.

Great work though, and thanks for posting the replays. They're a lot of fun to watch. :)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2009, 02:21:15 AM »
Here's what I have for the first half of Wicked:

2:  15 (Sadly, it looks like 5 diggers are required in the middle of the level due to the location of the steel areas)
3:  6
4:  8
5:  4
6:  4
7:  5
8:  9
9:  12
10:  13 (Involves a backroute, and no floaters!)

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2009, 05:46:11 AM »
2, 8 and 10 can all be done with one less. See spoiler for why:

Quote
2: The last gap can be crossed with 2 skills. (If that doesn't help, then I don't know where you might have used an extra skill.)
8 and 10: Use the release rate to isolate a lemming at the end.

Good job on 10 though - I didn't know that backroute existed. :)

Offline Dullstar

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2009, 06:01:17 AM »
Looks line almost no one is working on Holiday Lemmings.  I actually don't keep track of this thread much, so they may just not be on the list.  ;)  Here's where I stand for Flurry.  Note that these may be improvable. :)

01: 10
02: 03
03: 02
04: 02
05: 01
06: 07

Well, not going farther than that for now.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2009, 09:29:45 AM »
Going back to Mayhem, Mayhem 30 only needs 25 skills.  Replay attached.  It basically boils down to 2 things:

Quote from: hints
1) Let the left side do all the work.
2) Use your bashers wisely, especially at the end.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2009, 10:07:09 AM »
Hmm... I never considered sending a lemming from the left to free the right side. However, it looks like my solution was more efficient in one aspect, which means you can reduce that to 24 skills:
Quote
Build over the bear trap to the top of the bridge, and then mine down. This way, you can cover this section with 8 skills (7 builders, 1 miner) rather than 9 (6 builders, 3 bashers).



Looks line almost no one is working on Holiday Lemmings.  I actually don't keep track of this thread much, so they may just not be on the list.  ;)  Here's where I stand for Flurry.  Note that these may be improvable. :)


Some of those can be improved. Here's a few tips:


"Permanent" skills (climber and floater) tend to be weak for this sort of challenge since they only affect one lemming. Evidently, you've noticed this in level 2, otherwise you would have got 15 or so for that level.

You don't need to save 100% unless the level explicitly requires it - though you probably saw this in level 5. (That said, you can get 100% on Flurry 5 with only one skill.)

And there's a neat quirk to level 6. If you look at it in Lemmix (or LemEdit) you might be able to spot this.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2009, 01:46:11 PM »
Hmm... I never considered sending a lemming from the left to free the right side. However, it looks like my solution was more efficient in one aspect, which means you can reduce that to 24 skills

Ah, good catch. 8)  I found a more efficient way to do the right side as well, so here's a 23-skills solution for Mayhem 30.

Two parts of it no doubt warrant further explanation:
Quote
1) The same miscalculation underlying the miner glitch makes it possible for the miner to avoid exiting while the mining slope he creates still hits the exit trigger for normal lemmings.

2) In the bridgework across the water on the right side, the reason you don't bump your head on the upper bridge while making the lower bridge, is by very careful placement of the bridges to avoid the game's ceiling detection for builders.  In particular, the stretching of the last two bridges on the upper part are critical.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2009, 08:35:06 AM »
Very nice :thumbsup:


Here's some more Blitz:

2: 11
3: 1
4: 2
5: 9
6: 1
7: 5
8: 3

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2009, 07:55:50 AM »
And the second half of Blitz:

9: 21
10: 3
11: 10
12: 2
13: 12
14: 2
15: 14
16: 4

If you can't figure out Blitz 10 (I don't blame you - it's far from obvious), go to the old, old challenge thread and look for Crazy 8. Among the discussion of this level is a very useful hint.

Here's a replay for Blitz 9, in case anyone wants to have a go at improving it.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2009, 09:45:50 AM »
Wicked 3 can be done with 5 skills.  Replay attached.  Sadly, the reason I found this out is because ClamSpammer was talking about the old old challenge thread in his recent post, and while browsing through it I discover back then, I posted a challenge on that level that only uses 5 skills! :XD: And even then, I still need to go back to the screenshots I made back then to see how it was done. :-[

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2009, 10:47:34 AM »
Ah, yes, of course. I did that one too and forgot about it :D

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2009, 02:17:52 AM »
Here's a few more from Wicked:

13:  14
14:  4
19:  7

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2009, 02:32:54 AM »
I've just done Wicked 13 with 13 skills.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2009, 03:28:00 AM »
Now the last few from Wicked that no one else would do :P

11: 9
15: 13
18: 9

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #103 on: July 26, 2009, 06:10:48 AM »
Here's what I have for the first few Havoc levels:

1:  12 (Ceiling route)
2:  14
3:  7
5:  7 (Sadly, I can't find anything better than the standard solution)

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #104 on: July 26, 2009, 07:57:19 AM »
3 can be improved to 6 with a simple modification to the standard solution.

I have a plan for Havoc 2 with 13 skills, but it's going to be tricky to execute. I'm sure it's possible though.
EDIT: Got it, replay attached.

Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2009, 03:36:24 PM »
Wait a minute. If Mayhem 15 (The Fast food Kitchen) can be done in 10 skills, how come Tricky 10 (There's a lot of them about) is not solvable with 10 skills? Is it a percentage issue?

I asked that question because both of these levels have the same level template.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2009, 07:50:09 PM »
It's a percentage issue.  Tricky 10 requires 93%, while Mayhem 15 requires only 75%.  Therefore you can get away with less crowd control on Mayhem 15 and still get the required percentage.

In fact, a 9-skill solution to Mayhem 15 falls short by just a few lemmings.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2009, 07:39:34 AM »
Here's the start of Flurry, minus the ones that Dullstar has done that aren't improvable.

1: 5
2: 2
6: 2
7: 2
8: 10

Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2009, 08:05:28 AM »
I've made results for the final 4 levels of havoc! These scores may be challenged but these are 4 of the hardest levels in the game. Here's what I've got:

17: 13
18: 22
19: 20
20: 13
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Yawg

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #109 on: July 28, 2009, 06:10:43 PM »
Havoc 17 can be done with 9  8)

EDIT: managed to get Havoc 20 down to 11 as well  :)
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2009, 04:38:43 AM »
Got Havoc 17 down to 7 skills.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2009, 05:41:45 AM »
18 and 19 can be done with 14 and 9, respectively.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2009, 08:18:55 AM »
Woah, I did some that aren't improvable?!  O_o
Wasn't expecting that.   :thumbsup:

EDIT:  Wait, I think there were a few that I found one skill solutions for, weren't there or something?  Don't remember.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2009, 08:32:25 AM »
Well, unless someone can do Flurry 5 with no skills, or 3 or 4 with 1 skill, then yes, your scores for these will stand. :)

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2009, 08:59:27 AM »
Flurry 3 with one skill is very simple. I'm shocked no one else already found it.

I'll post a replay if you /really/ want me to but I'm pretty sure that more than anything else, it's simply something you've overlooked.

Not much chance of improvement on 4 or 5 though.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2009, 09:02:15 AM »
I believe it was overlooked; fairly obvious, easily overlooked.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2009, 09:13:48 AM »
Yep.  :'(

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2009, 09:14:42 AM »
I found that one a little after posting those, I guess.  I did find it, but it was before namida posted that.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2009, 04:08:43 AM »
Havoc 11: 14
Havoc 13: 8
Havoc 14: 11

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #119 on: July 30, 2009, 07:15:56 AM »
You saved me a lot of work there. ;) Good job.

Now to wind up Havoc, and ONML as well.

7: 17
8: 10
9: 21

That leaves just Holiday Lemmings to finish off :)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2009, 06:25:03 PM »
Oh dread.  I'm getting tired of AdLib sound.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2009, 06:29:41 PM »
AdLib sounds sound crazy when I first heard it as well. :)

Anyway, I haven't made any improvements on any level. Sorry.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2009, 06:30:20 PM »
I want TGA!  See the help section of the forums...

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2009, 01:39:27 AM »
Okay, back on topic......

Using basically the same techniques as when I worked out the 2-skill solution for Mayhem 16, I've worked out a 3-skills solution for Havoc 4 (attached).

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2009, 04:25:32 AM »
Neat  :)


Here's the second half of Flurry:

9: 3
10: 9
11: 3
12: 3
13: 2
14: 3
15: 1
16: 6

Attached are the replays for 10 and 16.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2009, 11:24:24 AM »
Now to wind up Havoc, and ONML as well.

7: 17

After almost giving up, I finally got Havoc 7 down to 16 skills.  It comes down to this:

Quote from: spoiler
The key move is technically an example of the miner glitch which, thanks to the specifics of the terrain, you don't need to spend another skill to make it work for you.  You just need to find the right place to mine.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #126 on: August 01, 2009, 01:57:44 AM »
Now the last few from Wicked that no one else would do :P

11: 9
15: 13
18: 9


Evidently no one else has done these still, otherwise you would have found that Wicked 11 can be done with only 8 skills. :P


And here's the first half of Frost:

1: 5
2: 3
3: 5
4: 2
5: 2
6: 6
7: 7
8: 1

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #127 on: August 01, 2009, 04:34:13 AM »
Evidently no one else has done these still, otherwise you would have found that Wicked 11 can be done with only 8 skills. :P

For that level, I actually did have a look at it last week but didn't find a better solution at the time.

I really don't have the time to do nothing but solve levels all day.  I already am doing it more often than I should, during times when I should be working. :-[ So there are still levels from original Lemmings on this challenge thread and possibly earlier ones, that I haven't really took a hard look at yet.  And even if I did, it might not be a hard enough look, just like you didn't report 8 the first time for that level. ;)

But, I did improve today on a level you've done earlier:

And the second half of Blitz:

9: 21

As you suspected, it was improvable, to 20 skills.  Actually you're very very close; I think you would've gotten it had you realize when exactly diggers turn to fallers (you solution seems to indicate you think they fall one pixel sooner than they actually do).

But for an extra challenge, I've made my 20-skills solution for Blitz 9 save 100% as well.  This is not as trivial as it seems, because of the spacing between your blocker and the lemming that frees the blocker.  In my solution, not only do you need to find the right place to block and the right place to release the blocker, it even influences one of the actions of the trailblazer.  Try it out yourself first w/o looking at the replay to see what I mean.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #128 on: August 01, 2009, 05:28:55 AM »
Oops :(

My original plan for this level involved building from that one pixel that the digger leaves. I don't remember why. And then I didn't think to change that part afterward...


I really don't have the time to do nothing but solve levels all day.  I already am doing it more often than I should, during times when I should be working. :-[

Uh oh... I've been pushing this a little too much, haven't I?

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #129 on: August 01, 2009, 05:50:33 AM »
Uh oh... I've been pushing this a little too much, haven't I?

No, I'm fine.  If anything, I wish I don't have to work so I can do more with lemmings every day. :P  All I'm saying is that expect me to miss some challenges every now and then, and also don't be surprised if I improve on levels that were first done days or even weeks ago. ;)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #130 on: August 01, 2009, 10:01:39 AM »
There are two versions of Xmas '91 levels which have different levels 3 and 4. The Amiga version has "Digging for victory" and "Aaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!!!!!" and the DOS version has "Time waits for no lemming" and "This Corrosion". Which levels should I allow?
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #131 on: August 01, 2009, 10:49:54 AM »
Neither, as both of those are levels from Oh No! More Lemmings!

Only the first two levels are worth trying.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #132 on: August 01, 2009, 08:25:43 PM »
Holiday Lemmings 1991:

1.  8?  Check this please.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #133 on: August 01, 2009, 09:11:28 PM »
You're not being very helpful Dullstar. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> You can't remember how many skills you wasted on the first level. Do this one again, and do the second one as well.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2009, 09:39:11 PM »
Unless I miscounted, here's a pretty obvious improvement to Wild 4:

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2009, 09:54:24 PM »
I've done Hail 2 with 5 skills and Hail 6 with 0 skills. Are there any more hail levels completed yet?
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2009, 01:51:49 AM »
You're not being very helpful Dullstar. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> You can't remember how many skills you wasted on the first level. Do this one again, and do the second one as well.

Actually, it's that annoyance known as the screen transitioning to the "You Beat the Level" screen before you can go to check how many you used. :P
I estimated that number.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2009, 02:22:51 AM »
Holiday Lemmings 1991:
Level 1:  10 skills, 100%.  8 or 9 may be possible, but I doubt it.
Level 2:  11 skills, loses 2 lemmings (blocker), improvable maybe
Holiday Lemmings 1992:
Level 1:  1 skill
Level 2:  1 skill

Requests other person to finish up 1992.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2009, 04:54:34 AM »
Well done geoo for improving on Wild 4 :thumbsup:

Hail 2 can be done with 4 - replay attached.

For the first two levels of Xmas 1991, I get 8 and 9 respectively. The Xmas 1992 levels look quite tiresome so I'll leave them for now :P

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2009, 11:54:16 AM »
Blitz 13 only needs 11 skills.  I've attached the replay but really, either you miscounted or overlooked something really simple.

(By the way, you haven't updated Blitz 9 to 20 yet.)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #140 on: August 04, 2009, 12:36:18 AM »
(By the way, you haven't updated Blitz 9 to 20 yet.)

When I first read this I thought you meant Blitz levels 9 - 20.  :XD:

I've updated it now. And, yes, I missed that...

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2009, 12:56:03 AM »
The Xmas 1992 levels look quite tiresome so I'll leave them for now :P

I'll save you the trouble. :P  Here's what I got:

1: 1
2: 1
3: 17
4: 14

I attached replays for 3 and 4.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2009, 02:50:33 AM »
ccexplore, note that I got '92 levels 1 and 2 first...  same exact results.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2009, 12:46:44 AM »
Second half of Frost:

9: 3
10: 5
11: 3
12: 6
13: 1
14: 5
15: 5
16: 5

Replays for 10 and 14 attached, mainly to demonstrate that the timing works out (solution-wise neither have anything new you haven't seen before).  Remember for Frost 10 to fix the entrances in Lemmix before viewing the replay (which you probably want to watch the whole thing in fast-forward).

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2009, 02:50:49 PM »
Speaking of tiresome :-\, here's Hail 3 at 23 skills.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #145 on: August 07, 2009, 08:57:49 PM »
I have another issue I'm afraid. The Amiga version of Flurry 8 has the level "Clouds of Lemmings" and the DOS version and the Lemmix clone of Flurry 8 has "Vacation in Gemland". I just want to check to see which one is allowed.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #146 on: August 07, 2009, 11:11:20 PM »
All of the results we've been reporting assumes DOS Lemmings/Lemmix not Amiga, so obviously we are using "Vacation in Gemland".  A totally separate list of results would be needed for Amiga Lemmings.  Not only are there differences in game mechanics, but some levels have different numbers like % required to save, number of skills given, etc.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2009, 11:33:00 AM »
I've done Hail 1 with 5 skills and Hail 4 with 6 skills. ccexplore has already said that he's done Hail 3 with 23.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2009, 05:46:54 PM »
Hail 4 with 6 skills.

I've just done it with 4. :)

Hail 9 - 11 skills. Annoyingly I was a single pixel away from doing it in 10. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />
Hail 10 - 6. Improved from earlier.
Hail 11 - 7
Hail 12 - 6
Hail 13 - 6
Hail 15 - 5. Replay attached.
Hail 16 - 11

By the way, how do you save replays in Lemmix? I can't figure it out. Never mind. Just done it.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2009, 07:30:19 PM »
Thanks. You must have posted while I was editing. I've done it now. :)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2009, 04:12:24 PM »
The only ones we have left are Hail levels 5 and 7, which are both very tedious. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> So what I've done to wrap up your project is that I added all the skills to Hail 5. I know Hail 7 can be done with just builders so I totalled all the builders here. I'm sure they are improvable but here're the results:

Hail 5: 43
Hail 7: 25
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #151 on: August 14, 2009, 07:19:13 PM »
What is it with you and a race to finish stuff?  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> It's not even your thread, and ClamSpammer is still on break and it'll take him a little time to absorb all the stuff that has happened the past week once he's back later today.  At least I know he won't lock the thread like you do. :-\

I don't know why you'd even bother with such fake numbers, it's totally against the spirit of minimal number of skills when you just add up everything there is.  More like a "maximum number of skills solution" you know. ;)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #152 on: August 14, 2009, 07:36:34 PM »
Like, for example, Hail 3 solved using 400 skills or Tricky 21 solved with 528 skills :D That's the point.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #153 on: August 14, 2009, 08:03:30 PM »
Just to get us off to a more sensible start on Hail 5, I've done it using 16.

Okay, just did Hail 7 in 15.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #154 on: August 14, 2009, 08:44:20 PM »
Has Hail 8 been done yet? Might have missed it but I can't see it, and I don't fancy trying it if it has. :P

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #155 on: August 14, 2009, 10:23:32 PM »
Just to be clear: I intend to look at the Hail levels again for real at some point.  Just that since ClamSpammer's on a fast for the past week (and therefore won't be updating the "scoreboard" on the 1st post), I rather thought this thread could wait while there are newer challenge threads of fresher interest to look at.

Patience can be a virtue, you know.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2009, 10:53:53 PM »
Fair point. I've not been rushing through for the sake of it though, I just felt like having a try since I missed most of this thread earlier on.

I believe my scores to be good, but then you guys always find ways to surprise me. ;)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #157 on: August 15, 2009, 02:02:09 AM »
Really makes us hope the Clam Spammer actually comes back, unlike GuyPerfect.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #158 on: August 15, 2009, 02:20:07 AM »
Well I've got good news for you then. :P

On the other hand, I really don't feel like diving straight back into this right away (and I did mention this before I left last week). For now, I'll update the table with whatever you come up with, and then maybe I'll come back later and have a real go at it.

EDIT: Okay, I couldn't help it. Hail 9 improved to 10:
Quote
Don't use the same lemming to build the whole bridge. Take a step back...

And Hail 15 can be done with 3 (your replay was actually very close).


And by the way, GuyPerfect did come back before leaving again.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #159 on: August 15, 2009, 09:43:29 AM »
Argh, I'm kicking myself over Hail 15 having just done it in 3 quite easily. :-[

I did actually do what you've suggested for Hail 9, or at least partly. I've just discovered what I did wrong though. So obvious in hindsight.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #160 on: August 20, 2009, 09:12:37 AM »
At long last... here are the final two levels.

Hail 8: 8. This takes some insane timing :XD:
Hail 14: 20. This really wasn't that difficult and probably shouldn't have been left for so long.

Replays attached.


And now we have a grand total across all the levels. Well done everyone :thumbsup:

I'll leave this thread open (unlike some people ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />) in case we get any improvements to these scores.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2009, 09:14:40 AM »
If I was hosting this topic I wouldn't lock it because some records can still be challenged.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2009, 04:56:29 AM »
Some people may be interested in knowing for 100%, though.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2009, 07:15:37 AM »
Oh yes, like solving 100% on Fun 7 with 2 skills. I'm sure most people have done that already. I have posted a solution for it though in another topic.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2009, 09:20:51 AM »
Just to get us off to a more sensible start on Hail 5, I've done it using 16.

Okay, just did Hail 7 in 15.


I finally got around to checking these two. Both can be done with one less.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #165 on: August 22, 2009, 10:46:14 AM »
I looked at the replay for Mayhem 21 and I think the level can be beaten with 27 skills, although I haven't tried it manually yet. The somebody who put in the replay may have bashed too late.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #166 on: August 22, 2009, 11:10:29 AM »
That "somebody" would be me. I can assure you that if that basher starts even one frame sooner (which would mean letting it fall slightly further before giving it a floater), it will fall off the final bridge before it is completed.

However, you've alerted me to another possibility - starting the basher further back (using the previous lemming to the one used in the replay) so that it tries to continue bashing when it reaches the end of the wall rather than converting straight back to a walker. Sadly, this doesn't work - I ended up in a situation where the 21st floater was still needed (meaning I bashed too late), and the basher fell off the last bridge (because I bashed too early :D).

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #167 on: August 27, 2009, 06:02:19 PM »
Here's something that might be worth doing - Minimum skills required to save 100% (or where impossible, the maximum possible % under any circumstance) on each level.
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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #168 on: August 28, 2009, 05:35:03 AM »
Then go ahead, start it.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #169 on: September 16, 2009, 01:07:59 PM »
I just spent a few hours working through Crazy.  Here's what I have so far:

4:  5
5:  8
6:  8
8:  11
9:  8
10:  11
12:  5
13:  4
14:  10
15:  4
16:  7
17:  8
18:  8
19:  6
20:  11

I have a feeling it may be possible to improve some of these, particularly 20.

Replay for 17, please?
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Offline Fernito

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #170 on: September 22, 2009, 11:35:06 PM »
Sorry for exhuming this thread from the darkest depths of oblivion, but I've got a question that fits into this thread: what's the trick to pass We all Fall Down using so few skills?
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Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #171 on: September 22, 2009, 11:43:00 PM »
*chuckles* I just asked the exact same question in the other thread ("What skills can't you live without?"); seems like I should have put it in this thread after all.

Offline Fernito

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2009, 12:38:48 AM »
Oh, what a coincidence :D Well, I read Clam's answer, so there's no need for someone to answer here :P

PS: This guy uses only 3 diggers for the Mayhem We All Fall Down level, but I guess this isn't possible on DOS version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUHRmX4UZ8c
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Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2009, 06:15:24 AM »
You're probably right. It doesn't work on DOS because he has the dig the whole width of the floor. I think it works on Lemmini* because the lemming digs 12 pixels out of 14 in width.

Anyway, we're not allowed Genesis version (Who cares?), or Lemmini. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

*Since you can pause and set the rate at the start for this clone, All the "We all fall down" levels work with just two diggers. ;)
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Offline Fernito

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #174 on: September 23, 2009, 06:36:14 AM »
*Since you can pause and set the rate at the start for this clone, All the "We all fall down" levels work with just two diggers. ;)

But you can do that in DOS version as well. And Lemmix! :P
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Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2009, 06:37:23 AM »
Give me proof with a replay, otherwise I'll do it.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #176 on: September 23, 2009, 11:44:43 AM »
*Since you can pause and set the rate at the start for this clone, All the "We all fall down" levels work with just two diggers. ;)

But you can do that in DOS version as well. And Lemmix! :P

Indeed -- but you can't in Genesis. You can't do it with two or three diggers on DOS because one digger won't stop another without being in the exact same horizontal location, which is useless. You can't do it with just two diggers on Genesis because you can't get the second lemming to reach the first in time. On the Mac, which has both the Genesis digger-release mechanism and RR changes while paused, you need only two diggers.

Offline Fernito

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #177 on: September 23, 2009, 03:40:40 PM »
Give me proof with a replay, otherwise I'll do it.

Sorry, it was a misunderstood :P I meant that you can pause and the set the RR at the start in DOS and Lemmix. I know that the We All Fall Down trick isn't possible ;)
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #178 on: September 26, 2009, 11:27:38 AM »
You can't do it with just two diggers on Genesis because you can't get the second lemming to reach the first in time.

Actually, if I recall correctly, you can do it with 2 diggers on Genesis, if you pause immediately when the level fades in, and then immediately prepare to raise the RR as much as you can when you unpause, before the first lemming enters.  I mentioned this at the old old forums (around the same posts where the discovery of the trick we're talking about was made).  If you want proof, I could go about and see if the emulator can record videos or similar.

On the other hand, the Amiga and SNES versions' RR-change speeds aren't fast enough for a 2-digger solution.  Amiga is actually pretty close, I think the 2nd digger ends up coming out 1 or 2 frames too late.  (SNES is not close at all.)

Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2009, 06:42:48 AM »
Just to get us off to a more sensible start on Hail 5, I've done it using 16.

Okay, just did Hail 7 in 15.


I finally got around to checking these two. Both can be done with one less.

Replay please for Hail 5?
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Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #180 on: October 01, 2009, 08:25:47 AM »
Replay please for Hail 5?

Sure. :)

Here's a solution with 6 floaters and 9 builders. So you can forget about the other skills ;) (in the "skills you can't live without" thread - which I thought this was when I posted :D)

Offline Fernito

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #181 on: October 01, 2009, 04:09:08 PM »
On the other hand, the Amiga and SNES versions' RR-change speeds aren't fast enough for a 2-digger solution.  Amiga is actually pretty close, I think the 2nd digger ends up coming out 1 or 2 frames too late.  (SNES is not close at all.)

So, you're saying that the 2 digger solution is almost possible in Amiga?
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Offline Minim

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #182 on: October 29, 2009, 05:02:16 PM »
Blitz 15: 14

How did you manage to do that? ??? I couldn't get lower than 25. Is there a replay so that I understand how you did it?

Edit: Improved to 20, but I'm still curious. There must be a sliding glitch.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #183 on: October 29, 2009, 06:51:05 PM »
No glitches at all.  I think you just used too many floaters.  See attached.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #184 on: December 30, 2009, 10:12:58 PM »
Just found an attempt at this same challenge on Youtube:

Lemmings Laziness Challenge

Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #185 on: December 30, 2009, 10:31:21 PM »
Not a bad attempt, either. The levels for which he's failed to equal the records set in this thread are: Fun 20, 22, 27; Tricky 8, 11, 13, 14, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27.

I'm not going to post to let him know about this since I don't know how to beat those levels with so few skills either, but if anyone else wants to, just thought I'd make things easier for you by letting you know which ones to watch :)

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #186 on: September 06, 2010, 06:52:20 PM »
Hello all,

I am the creator of the "Lemmings Laziness Challenge" videos on YouTube. You might like to know that I have videos up for Taxing and Mayhem now.

Proxima has already compared my attempt for Fun and Tricky to my attempt. Comparing the rest of the levels, I find that I did not match the record for the following levels:

Taxing 4, 7, 22, 23, 26, 28
Mayhem 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30
(That list is a lot longer than I was hoping for.)

On the other hand, it appears that I have set a couple of new records:

Taxing 2: 5
Mayhem 10: 10

I hope to make videos matching the records for all the ones I've missed. I have an idea of what to do for Fun 20, but a lot of the other ones have me baffled. I am going to at least try them on my own.

I'm also planning on making "no glitch" videos for levels whose records require digging through steel, etc.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #187 on: September 07, 2010, 02:12:22 AM »
Taxing 2: 5
Mayhem 10: 10

 :thumbsup: Good job! 8) Yeah, with so many levels (here on the forums we also did the same with some of the sequels like ONML, Holiday Lemmings, etc.) we went through, there are bound to be a few that we overlooked something on.

ClamSpammer's the one maintaining the results table on this thread.  He still lurks around, hopefully he'll come around one day to updating the table with your new results.

I hope to make videos matching the records for all the ones I've missed. I have an idea of what to do for Fun 20, but a lot of the other ones have me baffled. I am going to at least try them on my own.

Good luck!  A few of the results you missed do require glitches or very detailed understanding of the game mechanics though, be forewarned. ;P  (That said, you could also take a quick read on this thread).  Some of the results on this thread also has Lemmix replays attached, which (if you so choose) you can view using for example the LemmixPlayer.exe program downloadable from this topic.

Note also that the Mayhem 28 result may also be somewhat controversial, because the glitch it uses unfortunately can be affected by things outside of the game program's direct control.  Meaning that you could get different results during execution depending on whether you run the game in DOSBox vs Windows DOS emulation vs real DOS, and even what other programs have been run before you run the game.  There is a way to help eliminate these outside factors from unfavorably affecting the glitch being used, but this workaround involves running a program beforehand to get the memory to be in a certain way before starting the game itself.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #188 on: September 07, 2010, 08:33:25 AM »
Hey Eric, welcome to the forums!  8)

I've updated the table with your results. Great work!  :thumbsup:

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #189 on: September 22, 2010, 07:55:05 AM »
I took a brief look at the glitches thread. Eventually, I'll have to study them in more detail.

I've figured out how to match the records for Fun 20, 22, and 27. Since the solutions for 20 and 27 use glitches, the previous videos for these levels have become "no glitch" videos. I also uploaded no glitch runs for Fun 11 and 17.

Video links:

Fun 11, glitchless
Fun 17, glitchless
Fun 20
Fun 22
Fun 27

My glitchless records for Fun are

Fun 11: 5
Fun 17: 4
Fun 20: 9
Fun 27: 5

with the rest the same as non-glitchless. I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17. If you use only the 24 lemmings from the two leftmost entrances, then, since you will lose at least 4 to the crushers, you are required to use digging to free the blocker. But when I try this the lemmings become too separated. (This doesn't happen if you remove the blocker with a bomber.) I tried to remedy this by placing the blocker closer to the wall, but then the lemmings get stuck in the wall, violating the "glitchless" requirement.

So this wraps up the Fun levels for me, unless someone breaks a record.

By the way, I should mention that I've "met" ccexplore before, on the Chip's Challenge newsgroup. My full name is Eric Schmidt.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #190 on: September 22, 2010, 09:51:55 AM »
By the way, I should mention that I've "met" ccexplore before, on the Chip's Challenge newsgroup. My full name is Eric Schmidt.

Oh hey cool!  Welcome!  (For what a "welcome" is worth anyway, given how you came around to this forum just just when it's hit a period of deadness. :P :-\)

How's the CC community?  Obviously I haven't done anything with the game for years, but I still have some fun memories of it.  I have to admit though, my brain seems to be less intuitive when it came to that type of puzzle compared with the Lemmings type. ;P :-\

---------------

We never did a glitchless version of the min-skills challenge, it would be interesting to take a look at the glitch solutions again and see what it takes for a min-skill glitchless solution.  Of course, one issue to consider is the debate of what exactly is a glitch and what isn't, since not all are as clear-cut as something like steel destruction for example.

As an example, here's a 4-skill solution to Fun 11 that does not involve destruction of steel, or bashing any portions of the one-way-wall the wrong way (highlight to read):

Quote from: spoiler
Climb up, then dig down near the right edge of the one-way-wall, but keep the rightmost vertical column of pixels of the wall.  When done, wait for lemming to be right against the column, just before he would climb up it.  At that moment, assign him builder to turn him around.  As soon as he turned around after laying down a single build brick, immediately assign him basher without delay.

Here's the trick:  the basher not only takes out terrain that's strictly in front of him, he also takes out a small bit of terrain that's, roughly speaking, "behind" him (this description is even more accurate in the Amiga and SNES versions, but is close enough in PC version), as you can see in the attached screenshot.  He's also close enough to the wall pixels in front of him that he will continue bashing to the left, releasing the crowd.

So is that just a clever trick, or a glitch?  To add to the debate, if you observe the animation of the basher closely, there are in fact a few frames where the bashing hand is located behind his back (the screenshot captures at one such frame), so it would not be unreasonable to argue that it's logical for some pixels at the back be removed as well.  Indeed, the Amiga/SNES versions reflect that aspect much more closely than the PC version in terms of the exact pixels removed from the lemming's "backhand".  On the other hand, it's well-known that the game doesn't border checking for steel for the pixels removed at the basher's back, so does that mean it is not really intended?  Or, given that the game doesn't do a very good job in general of ensuring that steel pixels are indestructible, is that merely another example of just a steel destruction glitch, but that in general there's nothing wrong with the basher being able to remove some pixels at his back?  (Of course in this case, the steel argument doesn't apply, since the pixel being removed the "backhanded" way is a one-way-wall in the "correct" direction, so it's just purely a debate of whether backhanded pixel removal is intended or not.)

...Anyway, with that in mind, if I have time (not easy these days) I'll try to at least go over some of the Fun results with glitch solutions and see what happens as I start eliminating particular glitches from use.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #191 on: September 22, 2010, 10:39:10 AM »
I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.

I took a quick look just now.  Unless there's a totally different method that we miss, I can say with certainty that your proposed method will not work if you disallow lemmings getting stuck in the wall by the blocker.  So 4 is most probably the minimum for glitch-free.

This is a consequence of the details of blocker and digger mechanics in PC Lemmings.  In the case where you do not allow the blocker to be so close to the wall that lemmings get stuck inside the wall, it is guaranteed that in order for someone to be close enough to dig to free the blocker, he has to have just turned around the blocker's right hand, facing right.  This maximizes the distance between the freed blocker (who will necessarily be the first lemming to approach the first trap) and the digger (who now not only has to dig down to the steel to stop, but also walk the wrong way briefly before turning left).  A simple testing shows that the resulting distance between the two is too long--the digger is too far behind to make it past the first trap before it is reactivated.

Even if you allow the blocker to be so close to the wall that lemmings get stuck in it, in effect you will only close up the distance between the freed blocker and the digger by 3-4 pixels, basically if you have the last lemming dig as soon as he landed next to the blocker (so he's as close to the blocker as possible when he starts digging.  He's still guaranteed to be facing right when he starts digging, and the digger's pit has the same width no matter what.)  Not sure if 3-4 pixels is enough to improve matters.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #192 on: September 22, 2010, 11:09:09 AM »
I just found a way to solve it in 3 skills, without glitches. It does take some luck though - depending on how you time the digger and basher you could end up saving anywhere from about 20% to just above the required 40%, essentially at random. But no glitches ;)

Replay attached.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #193 on: September 22, 2010, 11:25:51 AM »
Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead :-[>.

Below's a quick verbal description for those who aren't equipped for viewing Lemmix replays:

Quote from: highlight to read
Set a blocker near the leftmost entrance, near the location close to the pillar where lemmings from that entrance land at, so that everyone from the leftmost entrance is compressed into a single position.  Then just have someone from the right-most crowd dig and bash left, so that everyone, including the blocker, is freed.  Then depending on your luck, enough lemmings will make it through the traps for the required percentage saved.  (Clam's solution achieved 44%)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #194 on: September 22, 2010, 11:33:18 AM »
with the rest the same as non-glitchless. I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.

Instead I improved Fun 27 to 4 for no-glitch, although I wouldn't be surprise if someone (Clam?) actually reported that result already on this thread, before it was superceded by the lame glitched solution of 2 pointed out by me.  Too lazy to check old posts; [edit: actually, since a 3-skill glitch solution also exists, it's more likely that is what Clam first reported for the original challenge thread]

anyway a hint below for 4-skills, no-glitch:

Quote from: hint
Find a way to turn around a lemming without using a blocker, by taking advantage of the transient effects of a skill you are already using for another purpose.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #195 on: September 22, 2010, 11:38:01 AM »
Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead :-[>.

To start with, I placed the blocker as soon as it landed, which pushes lemmings into the wall (thus introducing a needless glitch). So there you go, I get to slap my forehead too :P

To maximise your chances of success, you should dig down as far as possible while still freeing the other groups (9 pixels), and also as far to the left as possible. This helps to keep the lemmings in tight groups.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #196 on: September 23, 2010, 06:23:51 AM »
Instead I improved Fun 27 to 4 for no-glitch, although I wouldn't be surprise if someone (Clam?) actually reported that result already on this thread, before it was superceded by the lame glitched solution of 2 pointed out by me.  Too lazy to check old posts; [edit: actually, since a 3-skill glitch solution also exists, it's more likely that is what Clam first reported for the original challenge thread]

If I recall, the original 3-skill solution involved digging down next to the steel, so that the digger holds onto the steel and nothing else (which I'm almost certain constitutes a glitch). I doubt you could improve that to 4 skills glitchless since you need that steel to get down low enough to avoid splatting.

EDIT: Just figured out your new method. Very nice :)

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2010, 02:23:45 AM »
How's the CC community?  Obviously I haven't done anything with the game for years, but I still have some fun memories of it.  I have to admit though, my brain seems to be less intuitive when it came to that type of puzzle compared with the Lemmings type. ;P :-\

The CC community is still active. After a few years of stagnation, work on CCLP3
has finally started up again. Voting ended last month.

So is that just a clever trick, or a glitch?  To add to the debate, if you observe the animation of the basher closely, there are in fact a few frames where the bashing hand is located behind his back (the screenshot captures at one such frame), so it would not be unreasonable to argue that it's logical for some pixels at the back be removed as well.  Indeed, the Amiga/SNES versions reflect that aspect much more closely than the PC version in terms of the exact pixels removed from the lemming's "backhand".  On the other hand, it's well-known that the game doesn't border checking for steel for the pixels removed at the basher's back, so does that mean it is not really intended?  Or, given that the game doesn't do a very good job in general of ensuring that steel pixels are indestructible, is that merely another example of just a steel destruction glitch, but that in general there's nothing wrong with the basher being able to remove some pixels at his back?  (Of course in this case, the steel argument doesn't apply, since the pixel being removed the "backhanded" way is a one-way-wall in the "correct" direction, so it's just purely a debate of whether backhanded pixel removal is intended or not.)

I'm having a hard time deciding whether this is a glitch myself. I think that the destruction of steel is not relevant, because, as you said, the game doesn't handle steel very accurately. One reason to think that, in general, it is not a glitch is that nothing is happening that violates the game physics. The game takes place in a world where lemmings can remove terrain. So a lemming should certainly be capable of removing terrain behind it. However, there may be a counterargument in the present situation, in which the terrain is one-way. It seems that whether terrain is removed should depend only on the direction which the force directed at the terrain comes from. Even though the lemming may be facing left, if it removes terrain to the right of it, that seems to contradict this. So I'm presently of the mind that backhanded terrain removal is not a glitch unless it removes steel or one-way the same direction the lemming is facing.

In any case, I think a good rule to adopt is that a glitch only counts against a run if it's actually taken advantage of. For instance, in Fun 30 backhanded terrain removal could easily occur, but even if this were considered a glitch, it wouldn't, by itself, disqualify a solution from a "glitchless" challenge. Similarly, it would be permitted to pause the game before the trapdoor opens as long as you don't use the extra time.

By the way, I've figured out your 4-skill solution for Fun 27. I remember, back when I was first working on this level, trying all sorts of things to see if I could improve on 5 skills, but that was one thing I hadn't tried.

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #198 on: September 25, 2010, 02:57:33 AM »
Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead :-[>.

To start with, I placed the blocker as soon as it landed, which pushes lemmings into the wall (thus introducing a needless glitch). So there you go, I get to slap my forehead too :P

To maximise your chances of success, you should dig down as far as possible while still freeing the other groups (9 pixels), and also as far to the left as possible. This helps to keep the lemmings in tight groups.

If you place the blocker just to the left of the trapdoor, the lemmings will coincide with perfect synchronity. So far the best I've been able to achieve is 36%. Another strategy is, instead of using a blocker, to build over one of the traps. This requires sacrificing (most of) the lemmings from the leftmost entrance, but I have gotten 34% with this method.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #199 on: September 26, 2010, 04:25:29 AM »
However, there may be a counterargument in the present situation, in which the terrain is one-way. It seems that whether terrain is removed should depend only on the direction which the force directed at the terrain comes from. Even though the lemming may be facing left, if it removes terrain to the right of it, that seems to contradict this.

Hmm, that's an interesting and fair point.  Of course, the force concept would also throw into question regarding how miners and bombers should interact with one-way-walls.  For example, if a bomber explodes standing on top of a OWW, the force argument would point to an expectation that you only get the left or right half of the usual "U" shaped pit from the bombing.  You may argue that there are vertical forces involved in that case, but then with the miner, I would expect that the forces of mining are not purely horizontal either, so it should be possible to do at least a little bit of mining "the wrong way" especially starting from the top of the surface.

It's kinda funny talking about what intuitively should work for a one-way-wall anyway, since I'm hard pressed to come up with a real-life example of such material, even counting exotic stuff from a science laboratory. :P :-\

If you place the blocker just to the left of the trapdoor, the lemmings will coincide with perfect synchronity. So far the best I've been able to achieve is 36%.

I've attached 2 screenshots (zipped) of Clam's exact attempt that yields 44%.  One screenshot is around the time when the digger was assigned, and the other one is around the time when the blocker had just been freed.  The closer your attempt matches the screenshots around the indicated times, I'm hoping the more likely the attempt will be successful at 40+%.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #200 on: October 03, 2010, 04:36:50 AM »
I was looking back through some of my replays, and realised I overlooked a possible route on Crazy 9. Using this, I managed to complete the level with just 5 skills - 2 fewer than before. The difference, in a nutshell:

Quote from: spoiler
Dig before the first obstacle, rather than bashing through it, and then bash through the floor.

The replay is attached to this post. As with the above solution to Fun 17, I had to fudge this a little to make the timing work out. Also the last lemming doesn't actually exit in time, despite my best efforts (the time limit is probably why I disregarded this method before), however pausing for time in DOS covers this.


EDIT: Improved another one. Crazy 19 to 5 skills (previously 6), thanks to some extremely precise skill placement. Earlier attempts at this type of solution came up one lemming short, but by making use of the last "doomed" lemming, I avoid bombing one that could be rescued, and make the required 90%.

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #201 on: March 16, 2011, 08:01:50 PM »
Well, I haven't been making much progress lately, but hopefully I'll be able to pick up the pace a bit. Been working on the Tricky levels, and it seems that in some levels, particularly Tricky 9 and Tricky 13, glitching right through steel is required. Can anyone give me an idea of how you would do this, in, say Tricky 9?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #202 on: March 17, 2011, 12:03:46 AM »
In general there are 2 main forms of steel glitches in PC Lemmings:

1) lazy steel checking:  the expected way things should work is that a pixel of terrain inside a steel area should be unaffected by a terrain removal operation, while other pixels lying outside it should be affected.  Instead, the game takes a shortcut and basically does something akin to checking whether the lemming (which is essentially treated as a single pixel) is standing on a steel area (for diggers, exploders, and I think miners too actually), or has steel area coming ahead (for bashers).  If the lemming isn't, the entire terrain removal operation will go through even if some of the pixels removed are covered by the steel area.  Otherwise, the removal operation is either aborted, or will not take out any pixels, even ones that are outside the steel area.

Examples of how this translates:

- a falling lemming explodes just a little above a steel floor.  Because he is above the steel floor rather than standing on it, the explosion will take out the entire usual area of explosion, including parts of the steel floor that overlaps with the explosion area.  In contrast, if the lemming was walking on the steel floor when he explodes, the explosion will take out nothing, even if the lemming was standing next to a wall that's not covered by steel area (so one would expect those pixels of terrain be taken out, but no).

- a lemming just steps off the edge of a steel block and falls.  This puts him just outside the horizontal range of the steel area, so if he explodes now, the full explosion area will be taken out, including those pixels of the steel block near the edge where the lemming is falling from.  In practice, steel areas in the game are not often set up to exactly align visually with the steel terrain you see [more on that later], so you might need to starting falling a little further away from the edge for this to work .

- you have a builder lay down a single brick at the edge of the steel block, and once the builder steps up onto the brick, you make him dig down.  Because the game treats the lemming as a single pixel for collision and steel-checking purposes, the fact that stepping up onto the build brick puts the lemming just slightly outside of the horizontal range of the block of steel will allow his digging to continue down the edge of steel block, taking out some of the pixels of the steel block.  You can achieve something similar in the case where the level already has regular terrain next to the steel block.

- You can bash up to 7 rows of steel starting from the first row of pixels above floor level.  This is because the game really only checks for steel starting from the 8th row up from floor level, and seeing no steel, it will allow the bash stroke to fully take effect, even on pixels that are covered by steel.

One further wrinkle is that due to technical limitations, steel areas in the game are not necessarily aligned with the terrain you see, sometimes it extends one or two rows/columns above the visible terrain's edges, other times it falls short by a small amount.  You'll need to use a level editor (eg. LemEdit, Lemmix, etc.) to see the actual positioning and range of the steel areas.

2) blocker steel-canceling:  the game implements blockers by setting up a "field of blocking" around the blocker.  This field will temporarily cancel out any parts of steel areas (in fact, also things like trap triggers!) that overlap with the field.

A simple example to try out is Tricky 9.  Have the first lemming out block when he lands.  Then have the 2nd lemming out dig when he lands (to assign this lemming a skill, you'll need the technique of "walkers-only" selection, done by holding down the right mouse button while selecting and clicking on the lemming with the usual left button).  You will see him dig down the steel even though he shouldn't.  Of course, doing so also frees the blocker right away, thus ending the field of steel-canceling, so on the next dig-stroke he will fail.

3) there is also a very specialized form of steel digging using a very specialized glitch unrelated to the above two.  See this post for details.

==============

I don't remember Tricky 9's min solution, but most likely it uses #2 (blocker steel-canceling) together with exploders and #1 to blast apart the steel floor right below the entrance trapdoor.  This then allows lemmings to directly drop to the exit.  Due to a glitch in PC Lemmings, such "direct-drop" lemmings will exit instead of going splat.  For Tricky 13, you start with the "build and dig down edge of steel block" trick explained in #1; the rest is glitch-free (but far from trivial!).

Offline Eric119

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #203 on: March 17, 2011, 03:04:48 AM »
In general there are 2 main forms of steel glitches in PC Lemmings:

1) lazy steel checking:

Was already familiar with most of this, but it's good to everything all in one place.

Quote
2) blocker steel-canceling:  the game implements blockers by setting up a "field of blocking" around the blocker.  This field will temporarily cancel out any parts of steel areas (in fact, also things like trap triggers!) that overlap with the field.

A simple example to try out is Tricky 9.  Have the first lemming out block when he lands.  Then have the 2nd lemming out dig when he lands (to assign this lemming a skill, you'll need the technique of "walkers-only" selection, done by holding down the right mouse button while selecting and clicking on the lemming with the usual left button).  You will see him dig down the steel even though he shouldn't.  Of course, doing so also frees the blocker right away, thus ending the field of steel-canceling, so on the next dig-stroke he will fail.

Cool. I'd heard of this but didn't know how to make it work. That right clicking technique is definitely new to me.

Quote
3) there is also a very specialized form of steel digging using a very specialized glitch unrelated to the above two.  See this post for details.

Now that's peculiar.

Quote
I don't remember Tricky 9's min solution, but most likely it uses #2 (blocker steel-canceling) together with exploders and #1 to blast apart the steel floor right below the entrance trapdoor.  This then allows lemmings to directly drop to the exit.  Due to a glitch in PC Lemmings, such "direct-drop" lemmings will exit instead of going splat.  For Tricky 13, you start with the "build and dig down edge of steel block" trick explained in #1; the rest is glitch-free (but far from trivial!).

I've surprised about Tricky 13. I though you'd have to build up right and then go through the steel. My current best for this level starts with your suggestion, but uses 8 skill assignments, 1 more than the record.

I'll see if I can figure out these levels with the information and hints.

Thanks very much for all this.

(By the way, Tricky 20 is another one I'm quite stuck on. The only thing I can think of is to go under the one-way wall, but the thin platforms on either side foil this.)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #204 on: March 17, 2011, 11:42:02 PM »
I've surprised about Tricky 13. I though you'd have to build up right and then go through the steel. My current best for this level starts with your suggestion, but uses 8 skill assignments, 1 more than the record.

Hmm, I don't think anyone considered going through the steel like that.  I just checked now and actually that most likely won't allow for a 7-skill solution because even with the blocker steel-canceling glitch, a single blocker isn't enough (field doesn't extend far enough) for you to go through the steel with just one basher, plus you have the problem of freeing/getting around the blocker afterwards.

Indeed if you check the postings on this thread, it took a second look at the level before I finally got it down from 8 skills to 7, so as I said, it's not obvious.  Good luck. ;)

(By the way, Tricky 20 is another one I'm quite stuck on. The only thing I can think of is to go under the one-way wall, but the thin platforms on either side foil this.)

Don't remember the exact solution, but yes, I'm 99% sure it involves going under the one-way wall.  There is also one subtle fact that bears mentioning:

Quote from: highlight to read
The left edge of the one way wall is actually one pixel to the right of the left edge of where the floor is no longer thin.  In other words, note the Ys and Zs below in my attempt to depict what I mean in ASCII art:

     YXXXX
     YXXXX
     YXXXX
XXXXZXXXXXX
XXXXZXXXXXX
    ZXXXXX
    ZXXXXX


(note: picture not to scale vertically)

This makes it possible to have a lemming explode at the moment he turned around at the one-way-wall (eg. the pixel column of Ys) at the same time another lemming has already turned around near same location.  Then that 2nd lemming can immediately start building left, from horizontally where the Z's are, to fix the floor breakage.  You might not be able to fully seal up the floor breakage, but I believe you should succeed in at least catching the lemmings arriving from the left, so as long as you pave the rest of the path fast enough you should still have enough lemmings left to pass the level.  Be sure to fiddle around with the release rate to achieve the correct timing for various lemmings to do their tasks.

Another useful trick to know in finishing the path to the exit via underneath the one-way wall:

Quote from: highlight to read
If you stop a basher in mid-stroke by, say, assigning him builder, the interrupted partial bash stroke will act like a step for walking lemmings approach the end of bash tunnel.  If the tunnel is already very close to the surface of the floor, the created steps can allow lemmings to get all the way up to the surface.

Thus if you are very careful with where you start bashing, you can create a path to the exit without breaking through on the right the thick section of floor underneath the one-way wall.
 

Offline MASTER-88

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #205 on: May 08, 2011, 05:47:49 PM »
Tricky 26 could be done with two items. At least on SNES & genesis versions. Its just time used bashers right timings. Its quite precise but overall quite easy.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #206 on: May 09, 2011, 02:14:12 AM »
Tricky 26 could be done with two items. At least on SNES & genesis versions. Its just time used bashers right timings. Its quite precise but overall quite easy.

The PC version's bash stroke reaches one pixel horizontally less than other versions like Amiga, SNES, etc., so I don't think the 2-basher solution works on the PC version.  I'll check later tonight but I'm pretty sure we've tried already.

All our records here are for the PC version only, simply because it happens to be the version most people here played.  Unfortunately some solutions don't carry over from version to version, especially challenge solutions that tend to rely on exact timing and precision.  If I have time I'll take a look and see how many challenge solutions from the PC version may carry over to SNES version for your score-based challenge.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #207 on: May 09, 2011, 09:46:17 PM »
Testing shows that indeed the 2-basher solution for Fun 9/Tricky 26 doesn't work on the PC version.  On the PC version a single bash stroke only takes out 7 columns of pixels, while the SNES/Genesis/Amiga versions take out 8 columns.  The column you have to bash through happens to be 16 pixels wide, so 2 bashers is just barely enough on SNES/Genesis/Amiga, but not on the PC.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #208 on: May 12, 2011, 08:55:59 AM »
Taxing 1 improved to 9 skills. It's also a 100% solution, which means it's good for the max % version too 8)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2011, 05:50:28 AM »
Take off one skill each for 9, 10 and 18.

*slaps forehead*

Take off another one from [Crazy] 18. That's 6 skills now.


All right, who's in charge of updating the results here? The table still reads 7 skills for this level.

Oh...

*slaps forehead*

Updated.

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #210 on: October 15, 2011, 11:20:58 PM »
Flurry 1 improved to 4 skills. Funny how easy it is to overlook things on the very easiest of levels :D

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #211 on: October 20, 2011, 06:07:15 AM »
I can't believe nobody found this earlier, but Taxing 14 can be done with 22 skills (for 100%, no less).  It's very straightforward and glitch-free. 

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #212 on: October 20, 2011, 10:37:18 AM »
Good catch.  I remember way back when the threads were first active, Clam reporting an initial least-builder result on the "skills you can't live without" thread for Taxing 14 , which I then immediately reduced by 1.  I'm guessing it's the same deal here with the least-skill solution as well.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #213 on: November 06, 2011, 12:45:33 PM »
File another one under "I can't believe nobody found this earlier", but here's Crazy 1 with 2 skills.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #214 on: August 10, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »
Frost 6 improved to 5 skills, thanks to a rather straightforward solution found as part of this challenge.  (See this post for attached replay.)

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #215 on: May 27, 2013, 10:01:16 PM »
Mayhem 26 has been improved to 11 skills. Replay attached.
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100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Clam

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #216 on: May 29, 2013, 08:56:42 AM »
Awesome job! It's neat how the challenges feed off each other (Pooty's post doesn't mention it, but that solution was originally done for the challenge where you only have to save one lemming)

Also, thanks for reminding me to update the table with the previous result (ccexplore's) as well. :P

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #217 on: May 29, 2013, 08:22:57 PM »
Here's another example of the challenges feeding off of each other.  I was checking Wild 3 to see if a route through the chains would yield a 6-skill one-lemming solution.  I came up empty in that thread, but found an improvement for this thread:

Wild 3: 7 Skills

Quote from: highlight to read
The first lemming builds to the chains such that he gets there without hitting his head first.  The second and third lemmings die, and the fourth builds from the bottom link of the first chain.  If he starts right at the edge, he can prevent the fifth lemming from falling through.

The fifth lemming builds from a pixel-precise location on the second chain such that he goes all the way up to the chain above without hitting his head on it.  There's a point up ahead where the lemmings will get trapped at the top of the screen, so a basher is used to prevent that from happening.  From that point, you can safely drop off of the chains and simply build 3x to the exit.  Several lemmings are lost, but enough should reach the exit to pass the level (I was able to get 83%).


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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #218 on: May 30, 2013, 08:47:37 AM »
I attempted this before reading the spoiler (funny how it suddenly gets easier when somebody says it's possible :D) and did it differently:

Quote
I started the builder further to the right, and used a miner on the bridge in progress to clear the chain out of his way. The builder hits the vertical chain lower down, in a place where the lemmings can walk up without getting stuck at the top.

Attached replays of:
(1) LemSteven's solution (or at least my interpretation of it)
(2) the alternate route I found.

Both save 83%, 2 more than required.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2013, 03:36:18 PM »
Another one that slipped by for years, but thanks to cross-pollination from other challenges, Havoc 13 is now down to 7 skills via sliding.  The old 8-skills solution I posted is still good for no-glitches though, for those who care.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #220 on: December 03, 2014, 03:50:22 AM »
And there's a neat quirk to [Flurry] level 6. If you look at it in Lemmix (or LemEdit) you might be able to spot this.
I spotted it once by trying something that shouldn't have worked, just for fun.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #221 on: December 17, 2019, 06:45:45 PM »
Hm, another challenge that hasn't reached Lemmings 3D yet...

Here's an initial list for Fun and Tricky. Most of these are based on "what's obvious" / "what did the other recent challenges suggest", so might be improveable. A few I've actually tried. Some are neither obvious nor attempted yet, so have been left blank.

Lemmings 3D Fun
Fun 1 - 1 skill
Fun 2 - 2 skills (you'll save 74, which is plenty)
Fun 3 - 3 skills
Fun 4 - 3 skills
Fun 5 - 7 skills
Fun 6 - 4 skills
Fun 7 - 4 skills
Fun 8 - 4 skills (max-saved solution, but don't use extra skills to save lemmings that would be lost otherwise)
Fun 9 - 6 skills (max-saved solution)
Fun 10 - 2 skills (max-saved solution)
Fun 11 - 9 skills
Fun 12 - 6 skills
Fun 13 - 35 skills
Fun 14 - 6 skills (max-saved solution via the secret path)
Fun 15 - 5 skills
Fun 16 - 6 skills
Fun 17 - 4 skills
Fun 18 -
Fun 19 -
Fun 20 - 5 skills

Lemmings 3D Tricky
Tricky 21 - 10 skills (allow 2 lemmings to die instead of making them climbers, aside from that, normal solution)
Tricky 22 - 2 skills
Tricky 23 - 7 skills
Tricky 24 - 6 skills
Tricky 25 - 4 skills? (This is based on that there's a save-76 solution, which "may" involve 3 bombers, and the fact that the level can't be solved without at least 1 turner.)
Tricky 26 - 10 skills
Tricky 27 - Theoretically 15 skills if I've counted correctly. Max-saved solution, except don't use the basher at the end to save the climber that turns around. Needs to be tested (eg. maybe the timing can't be set up right without further extra skills - though I'm fairly sure it's workable).
Tricky 28 - 4 skills
Tricky 29 - 5 skills (the 4-turner solution)
Tricky 30 - 10 skills (no solution with leftover skills is known)
Tricky 31 - 17 skills (based on turner count + use of all non-turner skills for Skills You Can't Live Without)
Tricky 32 - 16 skills (5 turners + 11 builders; the max-saved solution but without spending extra skills to prevent loss of lemmings)
Tricky 33 - 6 skills
Tricky 34 - 6 skills
Tricky 35 -
Tricky 36 - 6 skills
Tricky 37 - 6 skills
Tricky 38 - 5 skills
Tricky 39 - 4 skills (the 2-turner, 2-builder solution)
Tricky 40 - 7 skills
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 07:21:50 AM by ccexplore »
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Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #222 on: December 18, 2019, 08:40:01 PM »
Continuing this...

Lemmings 3D Taxing
Taxing 41 - 6 skills
Taxing 42 - 11 skills
Taxing 43 - 12 skills
Taxing 44 - 10 skills
Taxing 45 - 7 skills (the 5-turner solution)
Taxing 46 - 6 skills (max-saved solution)
Taxing 47 - 10 skills
Taxing 48 - 12 skills (the 7-turner solution, without using the builder to save some extra lemmings - you'll still save plenty)
Taxing 49 - 6 skills
Taxing 50 -
Taxing 51 - 6 skills (max-saved solution, though you don't need to worry about the release rate stuff - just let a few lemmings die)
Taxing 52 - 7 skills
Taxing 53 - 4 skills
Taxing 54 - 5 skills
Taxing 55 - 4 skills (replay attached)
Taxing 56 - 3 skills
Taxing 57 - 1 skill
Taxing 58 - 13 skills (the max-saved solution)
Taxing 59 - 5 skills (replay attached, and yes, this abuses the lenient save requirement - though it's possible to save one more with different timing)
Taxing 60 - 5 skills
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 07:22:07 AM by ccexplore »
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Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #223 on: December 18, 2019, 11:40:45 PM »
Lemmings 3D Mayhem
Mayhem 61 - 8 skills (7 skills on "can't live without" and I can't figure out a way to simultaneously eliminate the remaining two)
Mayhem 62 - 13 skills
Mayhem 63 - 6 skills
Mayhem 64 - 8 skills
Mayhem 65 - 10 skills
Mayhem 66 - 7 skills

Mayhem 67, I've confirmed two different paths for 6 skills (one via middle spring, one via first spring), but I'm working on a possible 5 skill solution. Best attempt so far saves 59 (and would save 60 but for a minor screwup near the end), but a lot of lemmings are lost to a different spring and I think there's room to avoid this with better RR manipulation (and that's saying something, as this solution already involves over 20 release rate changes).

EDIT: Yeah, okay, I've had enough of trying to make this work, at least for now. I'm 100% sure it's possible, but trying to adjust the release rate via modifying the replay file breaks everything else (as is often the case in L3D - replays don't like being modified, or having their levels modified), and trying to do it manually - even with DOSBox set to run at really low cycles - is just impractical, due to the reactions needed, as well as how difficult it is to hit any given specific value.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 07:22:23 AM by ccexplore »
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #224 on: December 19, 2019, 07:26:09 AM »
Hm, another challenge that hasn't reached Lemmings 3D yet...

For minimum skills, I think we did try it for Lemmings 2, but then around that time challenges in general started winding down and people weren't working on them as much anymore.

I would prefer to keep separate threads for the different games, but I guess with you likely being the only one at this time trying the challenge for Lemmings 3D, plus the old one for DOS not likely to get much updates, I guess it's fine for now to glom your results onto this old thread for DOS.  I did edit your posts to make it as crystal clear as possible that they are for Lemmings 3D and not Lemmings 1, even if someone didn't bother to read carefully.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2019, 05:47:19 PM »
A lot of these challenges, we've been doing all games in the same topic.

However, yeah, I see your point regarding clarifying they're L3D - good idea there.
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Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2019, 08:28:37 PM »
Lemmings 3D Mayhem, continued
Mayhem 68 -
Mayhem 69 - 5 skills
Mayhem 70 - 6 skills
Mayhem 71 - 5 skills
Mayhem 72 - 6 skills
Mayhem 73 - 17 skills
Mayhem 74 - 5 skills
Mayhem 75 -
Mayhem 76 - 18 skills
Mayhem 77 - 3 skills
Mayhem 78 -
Mayhem 79 - 7 skills
Mayhem 80 - 7 skills (replay attached)

EDITS
- Mayhem 73, 17 skills confirmed (RR 99 after the 10th lemming is out, take the 17-turner route except go through the 3rd trap instead of around it, saving 2 turners - enough lemmings will survive).
- Mayhem 76, 18 skills. The "skills you can't live without" suggests every skill is required on this one.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 05:00:01 AM by namida »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2020, 04:37:55 AM »
Tricky 25 - 4 skills? (This is based on that there's a save-76 solution, which "may" involve 3 bombers, and the fact that the level can't be solved without at least 1 turner.)
4 skills is correct (2 bombers and 2 turners)

Mayhem 67, I've confirmed two different paths for 6 skills (one via middle spring, one via first spring), but I'm working on a possible 5 skill solution. Best attempt so far saves 59 (and would save 60 but for a minor screwup near the end), but a lot of lemmings are lost to a different spring and I think there's room to avoid this with better RR manipulation (and that's saying something, as this solution already involves over 20 release rate changes).
5 skills is now confirmed.  Get ready to slap yourself in the head with this one:

L3D Level 67 - 5 Skills (click to show/hide)

For L3D Fun 18, I'm going to suggest the obvious 16 skills as a starting point.  The max-saved solution uses a lot more.

L3D Fun 19: 5 skills, from the max-saved solution.

I'll take a look at a few of the other gaps over the course of the next few days.

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #228 on: January 25, 2020, 11:41:05 PM »
Filling in the gaps from L3D:

L3D Level 35: 7 skills
L3D Level 50: 9 skills
L3D Level 68: 9 skills
L3D Level 75: 6 skills (the 1-basher solution)
L3D Level 78: 12 skills (a variation of the 7-builder solution)

Also, L3D Level 76 (Fun Fair) is down to 17 skills - the standard solution only requires 3 builders.

Offline namida

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #229 on: November 26, 2020, 02:10:15 AM »
Found a 10 skills solution to Crazy 8 while doing NeoLemmix Lemmings Redux min-skills; confirmed that this works on DOS too.
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2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
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Offline Proxima

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Re: What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
« Reply #230 on: February 10, 2021, 01:40:51 PM »
I've checked that the Redux 2-skill solution to "Quest for Kieran" does not work on DOS, for a reason that I'll put in a spoiler since it might give away the solution in case anyone wants to look for it for themselves:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)