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NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Levels => Levels for v10 or older => Topic started by: namida on July 05, 2015, 03:16:02 PM

Title: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: namida on July 05, 2015, 03:16:02 PM
So, you've seen NeoLemmix, maybe even played a couple of NeoLemmix packs. You might've noticed some new elements, or perhaps just heard they exist, and be wondering about them. Well, this pack is for you!

The NeoLemmix Introduction Pack is designed for players who are experienced with Lemmings in general, but new to NeoLemmix. It consists of four ranks, each one focusing on a specific element:

Mechanics - This rank focuses on familiar elements that work in slightly different ways in NeoLemmix.
Skills - NeoLemmix has 8 new skills in addition to the 8 you're used to. This rank introduces you to them.
Objects - NeoLemmix has several new types of objects. This rank teaches you about these.

The Skills and Objects rank also feature some extra puzzles at the end, focusing on the elements introduced in those ranks.

This isn't a small pack, so don't expect to complete it in one go - it contains a total of 49 levels, making it comparable in size to some of the smaller fangames. But it covers the majority of NeoLemmix features that you need to be familiar with. :)

So, where can you get this pack? Here:
http://www.neolemmix.com/download.php?program=31
:compat-new:
:compat-ver-10-11::compat-no:
:compat-ver-10-12::compat-yes:

The introduction pack has been updated to correspond with the changes in NeoLemmix V1.47n and the addition of a Fencer skill in NeoLemmix V10.12.XX.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 05, 2015, 03:16:17 PM
Level name references (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Simon on July 05, 2015, 03:32:51 PM
This is extremely valuable.

This is also an excellent thing to ship with your engine/editor release, so you can deliver batteries-included.

I discourage pack designers from making full-blown tutorials about basic rules of the game. Tutorials in a pack eat up space and make the pack harder to filter for interesting levels. If a pack designer doesn't unlock all levels, even though they should, tutorials become a huge burden and outright kill the desire to play whatever is locked beneath them.

Since, obviously, there is a need to introduce new features, this dedicated pack is excellent.

Experience has shown how new people want to play L1 first, only then dive into custom packs. We can assume enough familiarity with L1 to skip introducing their skills. Should you want to include tutorials about L1 stuff sometime, make it a separate, skippable rating.

When pack designers are going to use strange tricks or features, I'm okay with selected, specific tutorials before such levels. That is normal, good design.

-- Simon
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: 607 on July 06, 2015, 07:23:15 AM
I think this would be really good. The 8 levels that come with it now are very nice, but more, especially on things like teleporters, radiation and gimmicks would be wanted.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 06, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
I'm thinking the first two should be swapped around. The changed mechanics can pretty much be shown using only the classic 8 skills. Introducing these first would not only avert surprises if one runs into them in the Skills tutorials (especially the instant bombers), but it'd allow for drawing comparisons a bit better - eg. mentioning that the stoner is untimed like the bomber, but in some custom packs the creator may choose to make them timed, in which case it's always a matter of "both or neither".
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 07, 2015, 01:10:27 PM
Got three of the four puzzles (for ending the Skills rank) done. These are basically simple levels that make use of the new skills.

The three levels I've done so far, combined, cover six of the new skills - some of them are used more than once. So, whatever I make for the fourth level, will need to use both Swimmer and Disarmer...
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 07, 2015, 02:31:12 PM
Glad that you're making this pack!

3. New objects. In most cases there'd be a single level for each new object, but obviously those that need to go together (teleporters + receivers, locked exits + unlock buttons, etc) would do so. Perhaps also combining into one level in the case of closely-related objects, such as splat pads and antisplat pads.

There are no custom graphic sets for this; it'll just use the standard ones. There'll be a few alterations to MAIN.DAT but mostly only the title logo and rank graphics.

The problem with not using custom graphic sets is that the radiation object only appears in the Desert, Sky, Lab, Space and Wasteland graphic sets. If you want to make a tutorial level for radiation (which would be very helpful), you should probably add radiation to one of the standard graphic sets (Fire would be the best choice) since there's lots more room for the objects.

The same issue applies for the splat/antisplat pads. Perhaps the same splat/antisplat pads that were used in Wasteland could be used in the Crystal set since the Crystal set has electric-related traps.

Two-way teleporters and self-contained teleporters only appear in the Cheapo styles. Maybe add those to the Marble style?

Sega is the only official graphic set that uses locked exit+buttons. Will this be the style you will be using for the locked exit/button tutorial?

4. Gimmicks. I don't know that I'd cover *all* gimmicks here (particularly those that primarily affect only the user interface, not the actual gameplay; eg. overflow, reverse skill counts, etc), but I'd want to primarily focus on the significant ones, that see (relatively) a lot of use, and/or offer a lot of versatility. Gimmicks like Karoshi or Zombies come to mind here.

I feel that all non-user-interface-related gimmicks should be here, even those that are not as versatile. For example, if the Unalterable Terrain gimmick is not seen as versatile, a tutorial level would still be beneficial for it since the LPII level that uses it (Cheeky 8 "The Haunted House") is very difficult and would require the player to have a very good understanding of the gimmick in order to meet the save requirement. The One Skill gimmick also could use tutorial levels, since the current tutorial level for it (Fierce 16 "Limited Requests") is very much difficult as-is; there are also talismans that require the player to use One Skill per lemming.

Another reason for having a tutorial for all non-user-interface-related gimmicks is that there are some people out there who may want to create gimmick levels. Having tutorial levels for them will help people have a better understanding of the concept of each gimmick.

In both of these ranks, should each object/gimmick tutorial level follow with a puzzle level, similar to how LPIII does it (except, of course, the puzzles should be more on the range of Fun-Tricky)?

Also, I'm assuming that the pack will be continuously updated as you add more features to NeoLemmix (e.g. more objects/gimmicks, more changes in gameplay mechanics, etc.)?
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 07, 2015, 08:25:45 PM
Quote
The problem with not using custom graphic sets is that the radiation object only appears in the Desert, Sky, Lab, Space and Wasteland graphic sets. If you want to make a tutorial level for radiation (which would be very helpful), you should probably add radiation to one of the standard graphic sets (Fire would be the best choice) since there's lots more room for the objects.

By that comment, I just meant I wouldn't be creating any new graphic sets for it. Not that I wouldn't use the Lemmings Plus ones (which are standard in NeoLemmix).


I haven't thought too much about the layout for the other ranks yet.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 17, 2015, 02:13:53 AM
I've uploaded a player containing the Skills rank to the first post. Let me know what you think of it - whether any of the levels should be revised (or replaced - I'm thinking the multi-skill Disarmer puzzle probably should be), whether the four levels at the end are too hard, and so on.

It follows the plan I suggested before: Each skill is introduced first with a very easy level using only that skill, then followed by a slightly harder level using the new skill in combination with some classic skills. Finally, the last four levels are puzzles which use multiple old and new skills in combination; between the four of them, all 8 new skills are used, some are used more than once. These levels are not intended to be very hard; let me know if you think any of them go beyond Taxing difficulty at most (in which case I'll probably make a new level to replace them, and instead submit those removed levels for the NeoLemmix Community Pack).

I'll probably work on the objects rank next, since I think further discussion / thinking is needed on what exactly the Mechanics rank should contain. With that being said, since they function more like a new mechanic than a new object type from the player's point of view, I'll probably include pre-placed lemmings in the Mechanics rank, not the Objects one.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 17, 2015, 02:37:21 PM
Seems I have had a hard time downloading the player, because I keep getting errors on Firefox like "the connection was reset". But for some reason I was able to download it from Opera.

The player should be in a Dropbox link.

I've uploaded a player containing the Skills rank to the first post. Let me know what you think of it - whether any of the levels should be revised (or replaced - I'm thinking the multi-skill Disarmer puzzle probably should be), whether the four levels at the end are too hard, and so on.

Anyways, my thought so far: the 16 tutorial levels so far are pretty informative and do a great job at highlighting all the concepts of each skill, like the walker tutorial and the stacker tutorial.

In my opinion, the multi-skill Disarmer puzzle (which is "If it Ain't Broke, Unfix It") should be the Disarmer tutorial, and you can just simply remove the bomber and blocker, and probably lower the release rate a bit. Then you can make a new multi-skill Disarmer puzzle (preferably in the Sega style since that hasn't been used yet).

It follows the plan I suggested before: Each skill is introduced first with a very easy level using only that skill, then followed by a slightly harder level using the new skill in combination with some classic skills. Finally, the last four levels are puzzles which use multiple old and new skills in combination; between the four of them, all 8 new skills are used, some are used more than once. These levels are not intended to be very hard; let me know if you think any of them go beyond Taxing difficulty at most (in which case I'll probably make a new level to replace them, and instead submit those removed levels for the NeoLemmix Community Pack).

The levels are indeed of late-Tricky to Taxing difficulty; the solutions aren't obvious and do require thinking. The puzzles also work for people who are new to NeoLemmix but have had experience with the eight traditional styles.

However, I didn't like how in the Walker-only tutorial (can't remember the name) and "Tree Time" the traps were hidden.

Haven't had the chance to send replays to you; I'll get them to you when I have access to my laptop again.

I'll probably work on the objects rank next, since I think further discussion / thinking is needed on what exactly the Mechanics rank should contain. With that being said, since they function more like a new mechanic than a new object type from the player's point of view, I'll probably include pre-placed lemmings in the Mechanics rank, not the Objects one.

Saw the list of objects that you will cover. How about the two-way teleporters and the self-contained ones? Though none of the NeoLemmix sets use them, some Cheapo graphics have them. Hydra1.dat has all three types of teleporters (teleporter & receiver, two-way teleporter, self-contained teleporter) as well as the splat/antisplat pad.

Also, how will you do secret level triggers?
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 17, 2015, 10:06:46 PM
I don't think there explicitly needs to be a tutorial on the two-way teleporters and self-contained teleporters, perhaps just a mention in the teleporter tutorial's introduction text that they exist in these varieties. For the secret level triggers, I haven't quite thought about that yet, but I'll find some way to do it. :P Perhaps a level that cannot be solved, but contains a secret level trigger (with some hints as to where it is), and this unlocks the following level.

With the walker-only tutorial, the position of the traps is hinted at. There's one hidden trap and one visible one; they both have a cross placed next to them. It's also right at the start of the level. But if this is an issue, I can probably replace it with a ten-ton or another bear trap.

For Tree Time, it basically comes down to a process of elimination that the trap can't be anywhere else. The presence of a Disarmer suggests there's one somewhere. But perhaps I'll put something else to point out where it is.

In regards to Disarmer tutorial, I think the new level highlights the concept of Disarmer being a permanent skill better than "If It Ain't Broke, Unfix It" does (if the blockers and bombers were to be removed). In this regard, I think the latter is a better candidate for replacement.

I would rather avoid using the Cheapo graphic sets, since they're not included by default with NeoLemmix. I even wanted to avoid the LPIV sets due to the difference in graphic quality, but the Wasteland set is the only one that includes splat pads, antisplat pads and single-use traps so I'll probably have to use that.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 18, 2015, 03:08:34 AM
PMed you the replays.

How about talismans? How will those work? Will you also add that unlocking a talisman also unlocks a secret level?

Will there also be a secret rank and a ghost rank?

I discovered a cloning glitch while playing the single-skill cloner tutorial (level beaten text instead of failure text when not meeting the requrement). I think I've seen this one before.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 18, 2015, 07:46:45 AM
A secret rank is probably a good idea, actually. A "ghost" rank is solely a feature for level designers, it's completely transparent to the end user, and as such there's no reason to include it, nor anything that would be achieved by it (this does remind me though - I must add support for it in the Flexi Toolkit).

I've added that bug to the bug list in the Player Bugs topic. Thanks for letting me know. :)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 18, 2015, 06:14:13 PM
I've uploaded a second preview. The multi-skill Disarmer level has been replaced, and some levels for the Objects rank have been added. All levels are also unlocked by default now.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 18, 2015, 06:24:01 PM
I'll get back to you with comments on the new levels, but instead of making a new level for the splitter, perhaps that test level (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1716.msg46615#msg46615) that you made back in September for the splitter could be used?

Also got a pesky error for Objects 8:

"Bestand "g_sega.dat" staat neit in archief"
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: bsmith on July 19, 2015, 02:26:02 AM
I'm getting the same error.

Also, there is a very simple backroute to the new disarmer level - make the first lemming the disarmer and wait.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 19, 2015, 04:02:22 AM
Oh crap. xD I noticed that one at one point, but later changed the release rate and forgot that it'd bring that back. xD

In regards to the Objects 8 error; that'd be me forgetting to include the Sega style. xD
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: 607 on July 19, 2015, 02:47:49 PM
Okay, I have played through the first 16 levels so far, and like it. I see you kept most of the levels from the old tutorial and altered them a bit to suit this set-up.
But this thing made me wonder: does such a tutorial exist for the standard Lemmings?
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 19, 2015, 08:45:08 PM
The first 7 levels of Fun? :P
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: bsmith on July 20, 2015, 01:41:30 AM
I've been playing with Fixed Ascent some more.  What is the release rate supposed to be?  I can put it up to 85 and still solve the level without using the climbers or anything on the right side of the level.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 20, 2015, 06:20:38 AM
It was originally 99, but was reduced due to that solution being somewhat fiddly. Some other layout changes have actually made RR99 not too bad, although there's still a backroute.

I've made some changes to this level that eliminate the backroute in question, and set the RR back to 99. There's still one solution to this version other than the intended one, but it's very tricky to pull off, and even if someone were to find it, I feel it still highlights the same aspects of the Disarmer skill that the intended solution does.

Updated the download in the first post to have the fixed version of this level, as well as to include the Sega style so that Objects 8 is playable.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 20, 2015, 02:38:26 PM
Hm...Fixed Ascent seems to be a hard level in contrast with the seven other new-with-old skill puzzles. You have to time everything correctly to get the disarmer to disable the other trap.

Here's how I did it.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: 607 on July 20, 2015, 06:43:29 PM
The first 7 levels of Fun? :P
Nope. The original levels let you learn everything yourselves. In fact, they don't even teach you everything, they leave many things to figure out for yourselves. However, in this tutorial, everything gets presented to you, and the skill gets fully explained before the level even starts. For me, that would be a bit too much, I preferred the way the original did it.
But I do support this pack, don't get me wrong, I think it's good for less experienced gamers. But if they'd need this, they'd probably need something like this for the original mechanics even more.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 21, 2015, 05:31:33 AM
@DynaLem: You have the intended solution. Although the execution can't be *too* tardy, it doesn't have to be perfect. I might make it a bit more lenient though...



At this stage, I'd like any suggestions for what should be in the "Gameplay Mechanics" rank. Obvious things would include the instant bombers, pre-placed lemmings, pre-assigned permanent skills, and steel mechanics, but is there anything else that anyone feels should be in there?
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 21, 2015, 12:57:11 PM
1. Directional select

2. Highlight lemming - this feature has a lot of potential and is very useful on talisman challenges where you can only use one lemming to complete the level.

3. Talismans - perhaps the second-to-last level of the Mechanics rank should be a normal level, but the following level can only be unlocked by unlocking a talisman in the second-to-last level.

4. Infinite skills and infinite time - perhaps in one level?

5. The change in how some terrain pieces can have one-way-wall objects while others cannot.

6. Adjustable level sizes including vertical scrolling.

7. The sides of the level are now seen as walls.

5-7, I think you've mentioned in a previous post.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: bsmith on July 21, 2015, 05:01:09 PM
I don't think that a text screen introducing every new skill is necessary.  The eight levels focusing on each specific skill do a better job introducing the skills - showing as opposed to telling.

The only thing I would change about Fixed Ascent is to add some more space between the wall that the first basher needs to go through and the first up ramp, probably simpler to to move the up ramp to the left.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 25, 2015, 08:12:47 AM
Uploaded a newer preview version. This has a few multi-new-object puzzles now, and the single-new-object (or in some cases, pairs of related new objects; eg. teleporter + receiver, locked exit + unlock button, splat pad + antisplat pad) levels are there for all objects except secret level trigger (which I haven't decided for sure how I'll handle yet).

This new version also has placeholder ranks for the Mechanics and Gimmicks rank, with just one blank level in each one.

I also put up a poll regarding how the introduction texts (or lack thereof) should be handled.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 25, 2015, 09:02:58 AM
Great job with the new puzzles!

However, two levels seemed hard: Objects 10 "Lemming Rush" and Objects 13 "Divide and Regroup". The former, for even a tutorial level, has a limited skillset with a high release rate, and may work as a Bumpy level. This one is an attempt replay. I solved the latter in a completely different way and saved a higher requirement, but that may be a backroute.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 25, 2015, 09:19:44 AM
Objects 10, the solution is a bit simpler than what you're thinking. Though I agree it's probably a bit on the hard side. The main problem is that making a level focusing almost solely on splitters isn't an easy task in itself - I don't want to end up with something like the Lemmings 3D splitter tutorial (it was basically a normal (but very easy) level, with a splitter at the end, with both outcomes going directly to an exit). I wonder if simply reducing the release rate will help with this one...

I like the way you solved Objects 13 (which has been moved to 14 now, due to adding a secret level trigger tutorial level at Level 11). It's close to the intended solution, but much more optimum in terms of lemmings saved than my solution - I only saved about 85%. While I realise this level can be quite tricky, there's a reason I set it to 100 lemmings and only required 40%. :) Heck, this could've worked as a 1% required level, but I thought that might come across as weird in a tutorial pack.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Proxima on July 25, 2015, 01:12:55 PM
We had a similar debate over on the DROD forums about an introductory levelset we're making. In that case we decided to take a "show, don't tell" approach, and the result has generally met with approval. Even so, for this NeoLemmix pack I think you should keep the intro texts.

Why this difference? Because our DROD pack is aimed at completely new players who want to get into the game. We want to start off by showing them that it's fun and accessible. Your pack is aimed at players and level designers who already know the game but want to learn what all these new skills do. Such players are likely to be interested in knowing the fine details of mechanics, and won't be put off by a wall of text. Anyone new to NeoLemmix who wants to get straight in and discover for themselves how everything works won't play a pack calling itself "Tutorial" at all.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 25, 2015, 01:41:56 PM
@DynaLem: Based on your comments, I've made Objects 10 easier by dropping the release rate to 75. Objects 13 will remain unchanged (apart from being moved to Level 14).



In regards to the gimmicks rank, which ones should be included? I'm thinking the following (ordering of this list is just based on the in-editor order); those with a ? I'm not sure about:

Frenzy
Karoshi
Unalterable Terrain ?
No Gravity
Hardworkers
Backwards Walkers
Lazy Lemmings
Exhaustion
Non-Fatal Bombers?
Non-Permanent Skills
Turnaround On Assign?
Horizontal / Vertical Wrap
Rising Water
Zombies
Clone On Assign?
Instant Pickup Skills?
Permanent Blockers?
(another gimmick which hasn't yet been revealed)


EDIT: New preview version uploaded, includes most of the Mechanics rank. :)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 25, 2015, 06:19:28 PM
I'd say you should make levels with the gimmicks that have question marks on them, especially the Turnaround on Assign and the new gimmicks that you added in V-1.35n, I think. Especially since you are no longer doing an LPIV Bonus Pack. Unalterable should especially have one since only one level (not counting Lemming Collider and Bomber Frenzy) uses the gimmick to its fullest potential.

Will there also be levels using combinations of gimmicks (in a similar vein to Party, only easier)?

For Zombies, will you also do Zombies on Death and Classic Zombies?

Also, despite the graphical differences, I would say go ahead with making levels with the other three LPIV styles (and Horror), since you are not making a bonus pack anymore and you're already using Wasteland.

EDIT: I'm still getting the same version as before (i.e. no new Mechanics levels, only the placeholder level)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 26, 2015, 07:17:25 AM
Seems that my edit of the 1st post to update that didnt' go through at all (ie: wasn't just the attachment, but the modification I made to the note about the attachment wasn't there either). Oh well, it's done now.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 26, 2015, 12:33:12 PM
Seems that Mechanics 9 "Experience Required" is also a hard level. I guess you do need experience to solve this level. Here's are two attempt replays. I have no idea what I am missing.

Also, no level with changes in one-way arrow mechanics (e.g. in overlapping terrain, some terrains have them while others don't, one-way arrows are like steel mechanics in that they don't get partially destroyed by a destructive skill in the opposite direction)? This one is very important, especially when if you build to an area that would have displayed one-way walls on the bridge would no longer be the case in NeoLemmix.

EDIT: Oops, wrong Solution A replay. Here's the real thing.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 26, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
Solution A, you uploaded the TXT file rather than the LRB... so I can't watch it. :P

Anyway, I think you're overthinking things a bit....

Hint (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 26, 2015, 07:13:04 PM
Got it. I have no idea how I've overlooked this solution.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on July 27, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
Quote
Also, no level with changes in one-way arrow mechanics (e.g. in overlapping terrain, some terrains have them while others don't, one-way arrows are like steel mechanics in that they don't get partially destroyed by a destructive skill in the opposite direction)? This one is very important, especially when if you build to an area that would have displayed one-way walls on the bridge would no longer be the case in NeoLemmix.

Good point. I originally thought "well, one-way walls mostly work the same as steel, except direction-specific" so there was no need - but you're right that the capability of rough edges should be pointed out. I'm not so sure about the bridge part; that's kind of a really obscure situation. Perhaps I should just mention it, but not try to illustrate it in a level as such.

I added one-ways to the list, though I think I'm going to work on gimmick levels first.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on July 27, 2015, 02:29:18 PM
Saw the gimmick list.

No One Skill Per Lemming? That's a very important one, considering how the levels you've made with it so far are very challenging, and you've made a feature where holding down Shift makes you only assign one skill per lemming.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on August 03, 2015, 06:55:55 AM
Uploaded an update. This contains most of the gimmick levels; though I still need to do levels for Backwards Walkers, Non-Permanent Skills and Zombies.

I also cut a few gimmicks out of the list of ones to be covered; the idea being that this should more give the player a good idea of what gimmicks are about and experience with some of them, rather than comprehensively teaching them about every gimmick that isn't a matter of "it ruins the level if you know what the gimmick does". (I'm considering not doing one for Non-Permanent Skills too, to be honest; but I do feel that Backwards Walkers and Zombies need to be in there.)

EDIT: All that's left to do now is a few more puzzle levels, for the secret levels. They're unlocked by talismans, not by hard-to-find secret level triggers, so don't worry if you've found those annoying in the past. :P
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: Wafflem on August 03, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
It seems I found Gimmicks 10 "Push For The Top!" to be hard, even for experienced players; unless I'm overthinking things, I felt the builder-blocker trick wasn't obvious. I also haven't beaten Gimmicks 5 "Distance Override" and Gimmicks 11 "Not What I Meant By "Floater"" yet.

Some glitches:
1. All gimmick levels use the frenzy music.
2. The Karoshi beaten level text is messed up; it says "H does that make you feel?" (screenshot attached)
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (WIP)
Post by: namida on August 03, 2015, 12:28:04 PM
1. Noticed it; will be fixed in the next update (which will be the release version). Somehow the gimmick music got overwritten with a copy of the frenzy music; it's either something I myself messed up, or a problem with the Flexi Toolkit (it isn't a player-related issue).
2. Thanks; fixed. :)

These levels do involve some clever tricks (apart from Gimmicks 11, which just requires good skill placement), but those who are familiar with Lemmings in general shouldn't have too much difficulty working them out. While I could have made them a bit easier, I felt that the way they're set up does a better job of emphasising some of the key points of the gimmicks. At any rate- this pack has the "Unlock All" option activated, so you can easily skip any levels that are too hard - and by the same token, mess around in them to at least get an idea of the feature in question, even if you can't solve the level itself.

At this point, I've made 3 of the 4 secret levels. Just one more to go... I'm tossing up whether to use a not-yet-used gimmick for the rank 4 secret level, or to make a level using many gimmicks in combination (similar to Gimmick Armageddon from LP3B, though not as hard).
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
Post by: namida on August 03, 2015, 03:15:20 PM
NeoLemmix Introduction Pack is now released. Enjoy!

Please let me know if you find anything that appears to be a backroute of the following types:
- Any that completely avert what the level tries to introduce. For example, if you can solve one of the new object levels without the new object having any impact on the solution and the solution is of similar (or lower) difficulty than the solution that does use the new skills. If it exists but is a lot harder, I'm not too worried (for example, Skills 2 *can* be solved without using walkers, but it's quite a tricky solution to execute so I'm not worried about it).
- In the case of puzzle levels, if the solution seems way too easy. Most of the puzzle levels are intended to be at most Taxing-level difficulty, perhaps Mayhem for some of those in the Special rank; nothing is intended to be extreme difficulty.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: Simon on January 21, 2016, 03:37:46 AM
Feedback from playing about 2/3 of the pack. With the skills, I've liked the trivial, then not-trivial level in succession. They weren't solve-on-first-sight. They are already touching the sweet spot in level difficulty from the easier side.

There is one gimmick level with a secret level trigger. I sent a climber to the steel at the top, that didn't win. I built up to the bottom side of the steel block, that didn't win. I dug under the hatch, that didn't win. I gave up.

The blah-blah text before each level is enjoyable, but tedious to read. I'd cut it to 50 % of length while still saying everything. Terse is good.

I believe that this pack should display the pre-level text every time, not merely on first play of the level. Some of its info seems too vital. Showing it during play would be even nicer, but harder to make.

-- Simon
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: Wafflem on February 23, 2016, 04:30:17 PM
With some recent mechanics changes, we need a level that shows that direct drop is no longer possible (as regular Lemmix had direct drop).

Surprisingly, there still isn't a level that shows that lemmings can now come out of entrances facing left.

Also, should the gimmicks rank be removed, as well as the level with the secret level trigger?
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: namida on February 24, 2016, 04:24:53 PM
They should not be removed until those features are actually removed from NeoLemmix. Barring minor updates, V1.43n will probably be the main version for a while, while I work on some behind-the-scenes stuff, so while I've chosen to update my own level packs (ie: the Lemmings Plus series) in response to future plans, I feel it'd be inappropriate to make the same change to the tutorial pack at this stage.

I'm not sure if we need a level to illustrate the lack of direct drop. More people seem to have been surprised that it does work than that it doesn't. Left-facing entrance is perhaps a stronger candidate for showing.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: namida on February 25, 2017, 03:19:29 PM
Just made the first proper update in quite a while to this, which adds levels for Fencers to the Skills rank.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: minglw on October 31, 2017, 07:20:19 PM
I like the Mechanics level #11  (named Hellbiter).   Took me a few tries to get it.   I managed to save 35 lemmings.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 28, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
Sorry for reviving such an extremely old topic, but find my replays for the NL Introduction Pack for v1.43, meaning this is the one that has the missing gimmicks and hidden Special ranks since the gimmick levels are compatible only for v1.43, as well as my replays for the Old Formats v10.13.18 NL Introduction Pack, where both the gimmicks and hidden Special ranks were removed. I have played these packs from a while back, and I plan to eventually post all my replays for all packs I play to the appropriate level pack topics, so I'm just doing this for completeness in case anyone wants my replays. Of course, pretty much the entire community has transitioned to New Formats. The levels here are well-done for the most part, but since these packs are for really Old Formats and Old Formats and no longer being maintained or updated, and there's currently a New Formats Introduction Pack in development, I would point everyone to Icho's NL Tutorial pack for New Formats instead, as these two packs here won't really be of interest to anyone these days, but again just posting my replays for completeness.

In the case of the v1.43 pack, I unfortunately didn't have any replays saved due to not having checked the setting of automatic replays upon successful solving of the level, so today I went back to do that, as well as play the levels of the Special rank. I don't recall if I ever played the hidden Special levels or not, but I'm thinking I didn't since I don't think I unlocked any of the talismans before, so I did that as well. There's only 4 of them, so I figured why not even though I really don't care for the talismans.

I must admit, it did feel a little strange playing gimmick levels again after so long once I had finished Lemmicks earlier this year, but it did feel nice experiencing the different gimmicks again and figuring out the solutions and the new rules associated with each gimmick presented in the levels. As for the Special levels, nothing too fancy about them other than I thought the third level was the hardest one in the rank.   
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: ericderkovits on September 28, 2020, 09:45:43 AM
I'm interested in all packs even old ones since I want to be complete. I already have your v10 replays. I also downloaded the 1.43 replays. I'm going to watch them quick now. Even though one can't turn them green
in v1.43 I still watch them.

I'm always interested in any packs. I don't care if there really old as I like all lemmings replays. Thanks alot Kaywhyn.

Not sure what made you bring up this pack out of the blue, but thx.

Also I didn't even know there was a 1.43 version until I put in the search bar for 1.43. Nepster even uploaded the old 1.43 pack.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 28, 2020, 09:56:09 AM
I'm always interested in any packs. I don't care if there really old as I like all lemmings replays. Thanks alot Kaywhyn.

Not sure what made you bring up this pack out of the blue, but thx.

Also I didn't even know there was a 1.43 version until I put in the search bar for 1.43. Nepster even uploaded the old 1.43 pack.

It came about because I was looking at my replays folder for v1.43 for the pack, only to find, to my horror, I didn't have any replays saved, due to not having the setting for auto replays saved when you're successful in solving ticked. Since I remember it being a quick pack, I just went ahead and did that so I can have replays for the pack. I guess in v1.43 you have to check that setting for every pack, because it seems to not be enabled by default.

I found out about the gimmicks rank for the NL Introduction pack due to seeing a Youtube video of it. Then I did a search here to download the pack, which Nepster provided. 
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: ericderkovits on September 28, 2020, 09:58:18 AM
also I noticed in level 11 of Objects it failed the Mass Replay check. But when I played the level your replay lead it to a secret level. Also actually solving level 11 is impossible since it requires 100% and there is only bombers for destructive skills and also the exit is blocked by steel. Also the pretext tells you that this level is impossible.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 28, 2020, 10:02:59 AM
namida intended Objects 11 to be impossible just to demonstrate the effect of the trigger for secret levels. I think secret levels got culled after transitioning from v1.43, so I don't know too much about them, but I'm kind of glad that it got removed since I don't really understand why they were part of NL in the first place.
Title: Re: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (Released)
Post by: ericderkovits on September 28, 2020, 10:32:29 AM
ok I just finished watching them. all good. now I'll update my list of old format packs I have replays for.